kkat Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 This issue came up in another thread...would love input and viewpoints. Scenerio: Single person gets involved with a married person. The single person: (A)has no other committed or serious relationships (B) is direct and clear with the married person about what they are looking for (whatever that is - it obviously varies greatly) and © has no relationship with the married person's spouse - e.g. they don't know them, they aren't boofing their sister's or best friend's husband, aren't "friends" with the spouse - no direct connection with the spouse Question: Is the single person - the OM/OW - doing anything unethical? Immoral? Curious as to how different people define the above and see things on this issue. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites
SoleMate Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Good question! We need to dig into the meaning(s) of ethics and morality. I see that the following ethical and moral principles would often or usually be violated by the single partner in an adulterous relationship (I list the 'victim' in parentheses for each case): Tell no lies. (the victim is oneself) Do no harm. (innocent spouse - as if anyone is innocent these days) Do not take something (time, attention, love, money given by involved spouse) to which you are not entitled. (innocent spouse) Do not have sex with someone not your spouse. (self) Do not have sex with another's spouse. (self, involved spouse, innocent spouse) Do not lead another into temptation. (involved spouse) Encourage the maintenance of healthy family life. (both spouses) On the other hand, as you suggest, the single person has made no vows of faithfulness to either spouse and thus cannot be accused of infidelity. NOTE: Of course, moral and ethical principles vary. I list one possible set. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Is it unethical/immoral to fire a gun at someone, even if you don't know the person? I think that when you enter into an extramarital affair, regardless of your marital status, you know that you are hurting the relationship between the married couple. If the oblivious one, the cheater's SO, finds out--(s)he is hurt. Even if they never do find out, the cheating causes problems in the marital relationship. When you cheat, you are hurting someone. Both parties are equally guilty. Link to post Share on other sites
brashgal Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I avoided this question in the other post as I know I come across like the moral majority and having been cheated on I am not quite as objective as someone who is using this as a mental exercise. But you've asked for opinions and I just about ALWAYS have one. Did I qualify enough? OK, try not to take this personally BUT... Yes, I feel it's immoral AND unethical. I felt this way somewhat before I was cheated on as I feel being married includes being faithful, if you don't want to be faithful then end the marriage. Other people do not belong in their marriage. Now I look at it from another angle - I would not want to hurt another woman the way I was hurt. Just because I don't know her, it doesn't make her any less a person with any fewer feelings than one of my friends. That's my view of it being immoral. Unethical? Why would one want to get something at someone else's expense? It's like stealing from the wife. She is missing out on the husband's company and comfort. She is married to him, he should be giving himself to her and another woman should not be facilitating his infidelity. I wouldn't want to be an enabler in another situation (giving an alcoholic drinks, etc) - it's wrong. Deep breath - this is just a mental exercise.... Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 OFCOURSE dating a married man is unethical and immoral. Then again, so is driving while drinking and cheating on your taxes. However, in the case of an affair, you are playing a part in disrupting a marriage....however sexless and loveless it may be. No doubt, someone has the capacity to be greatly hurt who is NOT enjoying the sex involved. Does it make the 'other person' a demon? I don't think so...but it doesn't make them right either. People have affairs for various reasons. I'm not a judge and won't make some blanket statement like all of those reasons are not understandable. At the same time....if you get into one....you can pay a serious price for it. It's a personal call. Link to post Share on other sites
Curt Posted January 23, 2004 Moderators Share Posted January 23, 2004 Encourage the maintenance of healthy family life. (both spouses) On the other hand, as you suggest, the single person has made no vows of faithfulness to either spouse and thus cannot be accused of infidelity. Yes, there is certainly nothing more unethical/immoral than a third party (either willingly or unintentionally) putting asunder the vows that exist between spouses. The only thing that I could note/emphasize here is that the single person really has nothing BUT his/her moral guidelines to hem in the action(s) they take with the married spouse in question. S/he is taking extreme advantage, but perhaps of an already bad relationship that may already be wounded beyond resuscitation. The other spouse has, by far, the greatest duty of care in the that triangular relationship, and IMHO, has much of the blame to bear for anything that might happen. Where there's smoke, there's definitely major friction, but lighting a fire in under either partner doesn't help the situation any. Curt Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I would not want to hurt another woman the way I was hurt This is the crux of the issue for me. Nor ought a man be hurt. I never liked The English Patient; I felt bad for the perfectly decent husband that got dumped. We are not on this planet to cause pain to each other, and aiding and abetting someone in betraying a spouse is one really efficient way to cause pain to a whole lot of innocent people. Link to post Share on other sites
Tony T Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Is it a sign of the times that this question has to even be entertained? People have to learn morals from an Internet forum? I'm not faulting at all the asking of the question, just the necessity of it having to be asked at all. Something like this used to be a no brainer. Link to post Share on other sites
UCFKevin Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 That's a hell of a great point, Tones. Link to post Share on other sites
amerikajin Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 It is a no-brainer, Tony. It's one thing if a person is on their way out of a marriage and starts divorce proceedings and THEN finds someone outside of their marriage - and even then, I'd be cautious until it's sign, sealed and delivered. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 You're right, Tony. People have lost their moral compasses. If they ever had them. It's also a sign of the times that people are browbeaten for being 'ethical' as though that was something only 'uncool' people did. I remember the punks in school being like that but I thought people grew up eventually. I guess people buy into popular culture when it makes heroes of the 'anti-establishment' types who violate social mores for their own gratification. Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 i think it is unethical if you have a signed agreement saying otherwise. this is empirical, it can be demonstrated. i would not presume to speak for anyone else's systems of morality apart from my own. i would not because it would hurt my SO and i'm not in love with anyone else. i have no idea why i would need to judge anyone else's circumstances. re: cool vs. uncool. that is hilarious! is that how it's been bolied down for digestible self-satisfaction? all we need is a crusty old dean, some cheerleaders, and mascot for slapstick humour. cheers, moi, just let it go; it's so incredibly 'last week.' Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 I refer, Jenny, to Thinkalot's post on LS social mores. Link to post Share on other sites
fifi Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Dear KKat: If you need some excuses to pursuit your married man, here is my full support: You are very moral, as: 1. you liberated the man from his unhappy marriage and made him happy and yourself happy, so there are 2 more happy people in this world; 2. You also saved his wife from misery, you are giving her the opportunities to seek for new happiness. Since her husband is NOT in love with her anymore and she is not able to make him happy, the wife would be the selfish and immoral one if she prevented him from living a happy life with you. 3. The man who cheats on his wife is immoral, the wife who has no dignity to leave her cheating husband is immoral, the couple who stay in a unhappy marriage are immoral. And you ARE moral! So what? is he going to live his wife because you are moral? People in this forum have contributed great advices to you, but unfortunately, you didn't really listen. as if you did, you wouldn't have cried in his car and begged him to leave his wife for you. In your case, being moral was not the issue. I dont think you would ever care about "moral" if you've got what you wanted. So why dont you focus on what you really need to focus! right, ask yourself, what's next? what do you really want to hear? Link to post Share on other sites
brashgal Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 wow Fifi, I so disagree. I think I would have 'recovered' much faster from the break up of my marriage had my XH simply told me that he did not want to be married to me, moved out and THEN started dating someone else. Yes, I am now free to pursue happiness but at what cost? Unfortunately I spent many an hour self-flagellating wondering why 'she' was the one he wanted more than me and it has damaged my relationship with him. I still am not at the point where I can forgive his actions. Had he just left me first I don't think I would feel this way. And since they are still together and it looks like they will be for some time, I resent her as well. Sad as I would prefer a better working relationship with her for the sake of my kids. It's going to take me awhile to get there... Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 But Brashgal, he was only fulfilling his 'needs'! How can you be so heartless and selfish as to begrudge him the happiness he truly deserved? Haven't you heard? Affairs are the new way of self-fulfillment! (and, yes, this is dripping with sarcasm. Sigh.) Link to post Share on other sites
brashgal Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 I think he did what he had to do, however flawed the logic. I started thinking just this week that I hope he did get what he wanted and I hope he does not break this woman's heart as she worked so hard to get him and keep him. Never thought I'd sympathize with her - guess time is a great healer. Trying to forgive and move on as I don't think I am going to get what I need until I do. Link to post Share on other sites
Samson Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Kkat, fifi Are you French??? While the question might be originally asked with some humorous intent, I cannot help but think that our Anglo-Saxon, and for Americans, Purtian varlue system is much different from other cultures and other eras. These cultures seem to be able to function well and accomodate extramaritial activity. I'm going to support fifi's point of view. If nothing else, the increased social acceptance for extramarital affairs might have the effect of increasing individual attentiveness and concern about our spouses happiness and welfare. P.S. I'm sure there are other examples, but IMHO the French are the most notorious example. Conversely, I'd find the U.S. as particularly...........ummmm......."uncool." Link to post Share on other sites
Author kkat Posted January 24, 2004 Author Share Posted January 24, 2004 Fifi, Sorry, I'm not perfect and I guess my crying in his car demonstrated that. If your point was to make me feel really crappy, congratulations - it worked. I raised the question about the ethics of being the OM/OW because I realized that it had never occurred to me that I was doing something wrong - I had always justified that I wasn't the one cheating, and that therefore, I might be in a stupid, pointless relationship, but that I wasn't doing anything unethical. I then started thinking that perhaps I was in fact doing something unethical, and I'm not comfortable with that. I'm all about trying to admit my mistakes and learn from them. Link to post Share on other sites
Benedict Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Puh-huh-huh-leeeeeease Kkat! it had never occurred to me that I was doing something wrong Well, there is your first indication. My experience with the OM is that that is completely lost on them. I might be in a stupid, pointless relationship, but that I wasn't doing anything unethical And there is an indication that you value basic things a lot less than most of us. Kind of like a junkie valuing his/her life almost not at all. More extreme than you, yes, but same concept, honey. What you are looking for is validation of your immoral act. You already know it is immoral, so you seek justification from somewhere else, 'cuz it's not in you, is it? What, there aren't enough single guys out there? Scared of having a REAL relationship? Might not measure up? I wouldn't date you... Link to post Share on other sites
Benedict Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 OK, I guess what Befuddles, Hayley and I had to say was a little too caustic for the Moderators... I apologize for offending anyone's sensibilities... well, most people's... My 2 points were: 1. It is an inherently selfish act - on the part of the cheating spouse and the GF/BF 2. When the roles are reversed, the GF/BF will feel a whole lot differently. That is all. Link to post Share on other sites
Author kkat Posted January 25, 2004 Author Share Posted January 25, 2004 I didn't notice that some posts were removed. Is that what happened? Regardless of whether I agree with your position or not, I appreciate you posting to my inquiry. I'm sorting through this issue and not just interested in hearing like opinions - I'm striving to come to my own position on the issue while also working to end and get past a relationship that has caused me a tremendous amount of pain. Thank you for posting to my question. Kkat Link to post Share on other sites
Benedict Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Yeah, some things were said. On my part, I certainly did not insult anyone (intentionally, anyway). I have some history as the "cheated-on spouse" (does that sound awful or what?). We have gotten mostly past it. We are in a good space. I will not go into how I feel about the other guy, but it is not good. But as I mentioned in my deleted post, I won. I am the better man. My point was that no matter how it feels for you right now, how right, how good, whatever... it would feel a whole lot differently if you were in my place. Some 21 year old child posted, putting words in my mouth that I did not say, and I put her in her place. But that is all it really is: an opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
meanon Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Benedict, I have read your posts and I feel for you. I admire the fact that you have come through an experience that would have broken many marriages. To do so (MY VIEW ONLY) you have demonised the OM. This shows in the way you relate to others. I certainly did not insult anyone (intentionally, anyway). I'm sure that's true but could you not see the hurt you caused? Some 21 year old child posted, putting words in my mouth that I did not say, and I put her in her place. To me this is not "an opinion". To me it seems more like adding insult to injury. I am asking you to think about the way you relate to others. We have much to learn from your experience Benedict, but you may alienate those most in need of your advice if you do not moderate your approach. Either way - all the best . Link to post Share on other sites
nicolez66 Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 I personaly feel its wrong on both sides.........but how i look at it is.......... " WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND".......see how it feels when the tables are turned....> Think about it ! Link to post Share on other sites
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