Genuine question for OW: what constitutes "compassion" or "empathy" for the wife?

[BrighterWashing]

I'm not asking this as a trap or a lecture. I am sure you see thigs differently to me and I to you. What I'm trying to avoid is that we use tw same words but seem insincere (OW) or harsh (BS) because they don't mean the same thing.

 

H's ex OW and Waterlove and others have all said they had "compassion" for the wife. What does that actually mean to you? How does it manifest? How does it change your behavior or your feelings about what is happening?

 

From where I stand saying you showed compassion by not outing the affair to her I don't call that compassionate at all. Compassion to me is letting her know so she can make her own choices and also accepting her right for those choices even if they hurt you. It is seeing her position a d yours for what they are and accepting she has every right to her reactions. Compassion would lead you to act with restraint towards her not aggression, even if it means you lose the man. Compassion would mean in our case staying out of our lives: not deliberately seeking a job near us, not emailing family members defaming us both. I don't see any compassion from the OW though she keeps saying she has it.

 

So I don't know wtf she means by the word.

 

I can't ask her but perhaps I can ask you. Perhaps if you've used the word you might gain understanding that it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.

[jwi71]

I think the best way to illustrate this is to turn it around. I'm not sure I can nail a tone which is not attacking and if I can't I apologize in advance. It is not my intent.

 

BrighterWashing, what does compassion (or love even) mean to your H? Especially considering his A.

 

I think you will your answer (or his) will the SAME to what you ask.

 

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here...usually threads like this turn into a pi$$ing contest.

[BrighterWashing]

Sorry for being dense- but what's your question? What does it mean to me and H? You mean my compassion for H or for OW?

 

I'll try to answer both.

 

I don't excuse H behavior. But I understand he was suffering from depression, I was trying to help him but nothing I did was what he needed partly because he blamed me for starting his depression. I feel for how lonely he was when we weren't getting through to each other and I see totally why when presented with a pretty, educated woman who really wanted his attention he fell for it. That's my compassion for him. I don't think he acted the right way by a long shot but I do have compassion.

 

I have compassion for the OW to this extent: she didn't want to stay married and was unhappy, but she didn't want to be single either (a single mom anyway). She genuinely fears men only are attracted to her body and feels no one loves her for herself. I can understand that and it would be an awful feeling. I'm sorry she felt that, wouldn't wish it on anyone. I see how that led her to H who clearly didn't just go for looks as I am disfigured. I think when he dumped her she really couldn't believe it and truly suffered. I told him he should tell her sooner but he thought it was kinder to say less and let her lick her wounds. I still think I was more compassionate than he was- I could tell she needed the truth or she wouldn't move on.

 

But is that what you meant? I don't claim to have tons of compassion for her. I own that. But she doesn't for me either and yet says it every frucking week!

 

I don't mean to start a pissing contest I'm looking for a variety of views and tolerance fr us all for the differences.

[MissBee]

When I was an OW I felt guilt...not compassion.

 

I felt bad for her and felt bad thinking if it were me I would not want it to happen to me...but that was not compassion IMO.

 

It was simply guilt and thinking it wasn't the best thing and feeling bad but it didn't stop me from continuing what I was doing.

 

Perhaps some conflate compassion with guilt? Or perhaps some conflate compassion with feeling bad for the person or not hating them? Idk....but for me personally, I cannot say, based on what compassion means to me, that I felt compassion.

 

My own feelings and desires were way more important to me and stood in the way of true compassion. I am no longer in that situation though, so who knows what my answer would have been 4/5 years ago while I was actually involved in it.

[MissBee]

I have a lot of compassion and empathy for BS's and I don't think any woman deserves that kind of pain and I won't ever be part of something again that would invoke that on anyone. I also have sympathy for the ow, very, very little for a mm. IMO they are more often than not the evil twisted one in this scenario. They are the one who makes both women powerless with their lies and manipulations.

 

I thought of what you said about having compassion versus acting up on it and decided to perhaps look up what a precise definition means.

 

"a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering"

 

----if that is the case, I don't think it is therefore possible to have compassion and also not act on it or at least wanting to act on it. I wonder how many OW truly want to alleviate the BS's pain/misfortune while in the throes of the A? I'd be a liar if I said I did. I felt bad...but my solutions were more like:

 

"oh well...wish he didn't love me. It's just too unfortunate that he does love me too"

"Awww this sucks...I can't believe he is here with me while she doesn't even know...how horrible"....as I continued laying in bed with him

 

Me to him: "Don't you feel bad about this?" as I questioned him about HIS actions, not thinking of mine.

 

Basically....none of my feeling bad about the situation and for her included any strong feeling to alleviate the situation...i.e. leave the situation for her sake or tell her about it to help her etc. I felt bad for myself and I felt annoyed at him as well as almost feeling like "the situation" was some external unfortunate incident that was "no one's fault" and we were all just unlucky and unfortunately tied up in this mess. But feeling bad for her was occasional, marginal and did not influence much of my actions.

Edited March 17, 2012 by MissBee

[threebyfate]

Why the perpetual demand for empathy and compassion from either side? It's not going to happen. The two sides don't owe each other anything. The person they owe is themselves, to get the hell out of the emotionally twisted triangle.

 

Ditch the dick/vag in the middle and all your problems will be solved.

[frozensprouts]

I really do think my husband's ex other woman had any empathy for me at all, nor did she have any compassion.

 

and, to be frank, even though i don't like to admit it, i don't have any empathy for her.Her way of thinking is so foreign to me. She's a "serial other woman" who prefers relationships with married guys, and i just can't empathize with that.

 

I do have a strange sort of compassion for her. She also has a lot of other issues, and i think that way deep down, she's most likely a pretty unhappy person. I derive no pleasure from that fact, and, in fact, i think it's a pretty sad situation.

 

I will admit that when I first came on here, as w "newly betrayed spouse", I had a very low view of "other women/men". The only experience i'd ever ha with one was with her, and i figured if she was like that, "they" were all like that. I saw them as one homogeneous group, all with the same motives and that they were all a cruel bunch with no kindness nor compassion at all. They were all a bunch of "evil temptresses"...

 

I was really hurt, and really angry, but reading the threads and posts on here for a while, I realized that an awful lot of other women/men had also been lied to, treated badly, and were hurt and angry, just like me. Some had been treated like cr@p, a very small number went into the affair with their eyes wide open and didn't care a whit that it would hurt their affair partners spouse... but most were not like that. In fact, I found common ground with some of them, and I started to see them as individual people. Some were nice, kind and compassionate...some were not, and some were down right mean...just the same as in any group of people that size.

 

None of that means that I agree with affairs, nor do I think they are ever an acceptable choice. But this does not mean that other men/women are some kind of evil being incapable of having compassion and kindness. They are human, just like me, no better,no worse.

[BrighterWashing]

Thanks!

 

LadyGrey yes I think we can safely say conflict avoidance is his major FOO issue. But he also had professional responsibility for her at the time and thought that making a big storm would make it impossible for her to finish. So by postponing he rationalized it perfectly as getting her professionally independent too.

 

He basically suddenly went NC with her for 8 weeks. I was the only one monitoring his secret email and she went just about bonkers. At the time I had no compassion at all, given what she was trying still to pull off and re things she said about me I found it kind of comforting to watch her suffer at first. And it was proof she wasn't hearing from him.

 

But pretty soon I thought he should just tell her. He waited another 6 weeks and finally sent her 2 quite terse emails saying it was over and he chose me and the second saying she needed to accept this and not think he was pretending and also accept that he did not look back fondly on the A (he referred to destroying his character by lying to both of us.) By her responses she had never contemplated he lied to her too. And she didn't believe he meant to dump her forever or didn't like her as a person still. She even went on about how mean he was being (I thought he was very matter-of-fact with no insults) and how this proved how much he loved her!

 

I find her pitifully delusional to be honest. Nothing can ever be taken as real rejection like "no one could ever reject me". She thinks I'm forcing him. Like I could stop him any more than I could stop the affair? And she says she's an honest person and he's the liar yet she's been deceiving her husband the whole time.

 

As to how she keeps contacting well she keeps emailing. Every week sometimes twice. When she was first dumped he still had to give feedback on her work by email but now she's off his plate and she just won't go away. She lives a fair way away with her H and children. She deliberately applied only for jobs in our city (her ILs live here and her mom near is her excuse).

 

I know she sees it a harsh that she should try to avoid us. I see it as a consequence of her own choices.

 

Anyway she keeps sending "you are horrible you've been so unfair to me" emails to us and Hs family. And when he wrote she would find it unpleasant to work near us and live near us she says it's threatening and intimidating. I think it's just a fact. If she comes to his work (where she trained) she will have his door shut in her face. She will not get mentored by him. She won't get invited to things there. It will be very unpleasant for her (and me if I have to think about her). If she doesn't leave us alone I will have to do things like a restraining order and telling her family and friends and husband.

 

She sends emails saying this is goodbye and she remembers him fondly and hopes they will be friends one day. Then when she doesn't get a response she writes with a work question. No response so she writes to his brother who ignores her. No response so writes saying to me "don't be so insecure and mean". Ignored so writes saying we intimidated her. Writes saying she wants to say nice things but isn't allowed then writes saying he's an *******. It is obsessive! He's written to say its over and indicated pretty clearly it's not me making him. He's ignored and gone NC. What else can we do? She even crank calls me at home and hangs up. Doesn't bother me but is obsessive.

 

Just answering your question.

[BrighterWashing]

Why the perpetual demand for empathy and compassion from either side? It's not going to happen. The two sides don't owe each other anything. The person they owe is themselves, to get the hell out of the emotionally twisted triangle.

 

Ditch the dick/vag in the middle and all your problems will be solved.

 

Don't really agree with this. I think she owed it to another human being to tell me, and actually owed it as a mother to a pregnant woman not to seek the affair (she admits he pursued him not the reverse).

 

I think I owe her the truth that it's over and the lies he told her but she won't believe me and I can't change that.

 

He owes her nothing but the truth it's over. She owes him nothing but I think owes all 3 of us a chance to move on by staying out of our lives.

[BrighterWashing]

 

I will admit that when I first came on here, as w "newly betrayed spouse", I had a very low view of "other women/men". The only experience i'd ever ha with one was with her, and i figured if she was like that, "they" were all like that. I saw them as one homogeneous group, all with the same motives and that they were all a cruel bunch with no kindness nor compassion at all.

 

Some had been treated like cr@p, a very small number went into the affair with their eyes wide open and didn't care a whit that it would hurt their affair partners spouse... but most were not like that. In fact, I found common ground with some of them, and I started to see them as individual people. Some were nice, kind and compassionate...some were not, and some were down right mean...just the same as in any group of people that size.

 

None of that means that I agree with affairs, nor do I think they are ever an acceptable choice. But this does not mean that other men/women are some kind of evil being incapable of having compassion and kindness. They are human, just like me, no better,no worse.

 

I agree that not all are the same. Totally. Basically I draw a huge distinction between those women who pursued a man and those who were pursued. Granted there is often a big lie where the WS pretend it wasn't them doing the pursuing. I have contemporaneous evidence from her though so I believe she did the pursuit and he was persuaded- not to his credit of course!

 

I also draw a line between those who will have an A where there are small children, those who actively bad mouth the BS instead of just ignoring them- and those who will get involved with a man whose wife is pregnant.

 

Not that these are hard and fast but those are the things that make me more or less judgy of a particular person. Hs OW was all the worst things- planned a year ahead, always intended to break us up, made the big effort when I was about to give birth, used the baby to bond with him, and now will not accept its over. Also she is not young and naive or single and she has children of her own she neglected.

 

To have this woman say repeatedly that she has empathy and compassion for me makes me laugh but also makes me wonder what she means.

[frozensprouts]

Don't really agree with this. I think she owed it to another human being to tell me, and actually owed it as a mother to a pregnant woman not to seek the affair (she admits he pursued him not the reverse).

 

I think I owe her the truth that it's over and the lies he told her but she won't believe me and I can't change that.

 

He owes her nothing but the truth it's over. She owes him nothing but I think owes all 3 of us a chance to move on by staying out of our lives.

 

not to sound negative or alarmist, but you may find hat she doesn't stay out of your life...

 

I had hoped my husbands ex other woman would do that.

 

Right after he ended their relationship, i got a nasty email from her telling me how the affair was all my fault and not hers. I wrote her a nice email back, telling her that i didn't hate her but she needed to take responsibility for her own part and not put it on me. I also told her that I hoped she'd find a nice single guy to love and be happy with. i wished her well.

 

I thought that would be the end of it, but i was wrong. I started getting emails and calls from her that ranged from that she hated me and I was ( i won't use the word she used), taht she thought i was wonderful and we could be friends...some said she was so sad she was going to hurt herself and it was all my fault. I ignored the emails and didn't answer her calls.

 

My husband got deployed a short time later, and she kept right on at it. She even went as far as to harass me and our children when we were out. She sent my husband an "anonymous" email ( she sent it from work on the closed network, and i think she forgot that the senders name automatically shows on it) telling him that I had cheated on him ( I hadn't). She'd sit in her car across the street from our house and stare at me and our kids if we were out in the yard. The emails kept coming, and Finally , after a while, I'd had enough, and I got some assistance in making her stop (legal, as well as informally reporting her actions to a few higher ranking people where they work. It was handled off the record, and whatever happened, she stopped harassing us and has since moved away)

 

funny thing is, after she and my husband stopped seeing each other, she moved on to another married guy, and another ( and tried to sleep with the husband of a friend of mine...she was so not impressed:laugh:) yet she still fixated on me and our kids. She pretty much ignored my husband, and focused on us.

Not sure why...I never thought i was all that interesting:laugh:

 

you may find that, if she doesn't stop, you may have to take further action.

[frozensprouts]

I agree that not all are the same. Totally. Basically I draw a huge distinction between those women who pursued a man and those who were pursued. Granted there is often a big lie where the WS pretend it wasn't them doing the pursuing. I have contemporaneous evidence from her though so I believe she did the pursuit and he was persuaded- not to his credit of course!

 

I also draw a line between those who will have an A where there are small children, those who actively bad mouth the BS instead of just ignoring them- and those who will get involved with a man whose wife is pregnant.

 

Not that these are hard and fast but those are the things that make me more or less judgy of a particular person. Hs OW was all the worst things- planned a year ahead, always intended to break us up, made the big effort when I was about to give birth, used the baby to bond with him, and now will not accept its over. Also she is not young and naive or single and she has children of her own she neglected.

 

To have this woman say repeatedly that she has empathy and compassion for me makes me laugh but also makes me wonder what she means.

 

very small number of other women ( and other men too) are the manipulative type . My husband's ex other woman was ( are you sure she's not the same woman:laugh:)?

 

She'd use every manipulation she could think of, even to the point of threatening to hurt herself when he ended their relationship.

 

I've never met anyone like her in my life. She was the most manipulative person I've ever met.

 

I really believe that she may have histrionic personality disorder. If she does, then real empathy may not be possible for her. I feel bad, as if that is the case, it' often the result of childhood abuse or neglect/abandonment.

 

I also think it's sad that my husband fell her her manipulations. Granted, he was in a very vulnerable place at the time, but even so...I really wish he would have made different choices from the ones he did.

 

Water under the bridge now, I guess.

[BrighterWashing]

FrozenSprouts I think we may be married to identical twins who were in Ives with the same OW!! I have talked a lot to my Dr about this and she has helped me understand this woman has a lot of characteristics of histrionic personality disorder. Also that WH was in sky high doses of an anti depressant renowned for lowering inhibitions!

 

He has seen through her now thanks to her emails since the dumping and has come off the drugs and he's much more like his former self.

 

But I never thought all OW were like her.

 

I just wondered if they could shed any light. And they did, thanks.

[whichwayisup]

And she says she's an honest person and he's the liar yet she's been deceiving her husband the whole time.

 

Maybe those emails she's sent to your husband should be forwarded to HER husband.

[daisy love]

I would have to think of her first to have empathy and compassion for her. She was something standing in the way of our happyness. Thank dog that's past!!!

[bentnotbroken]

I would have to think of her first to have empathy and compassion for her. She was something standing in the way of our happyness. Thank dog that's past!!!

 

 

Interesting that you would use the term "dog" I think you adequately described a couple of people in the scenario.

[Lostinlife4now]

Yes, I did feel sorry for her! That is why I STOPPED the A. Right in the middle when all was good...or supposed to be!

 

I didn't feel right doing this to another woman AT ALL. And I asked him "Don't you feel guilty doing this to her?" His reply, Nope not at all! I am doing this for ME...(xMM) and right after I thought about it for a couple of days I said See Ya....Don't want to be with someone who feels no remorse or has icewater running through his veins. I think the word is narcissistic.

 

I felt sorry for her from the aspect of her having to be married to him and live with him. Yes, she gets the trimmings of the nice big fact paycheck, big house, new car, new clothes and furniture...but Nothing else. They don't go out as a couple, or have married friends. She keeps to herself and he travels constantly all over the world. When he is home he lays on the couch because he is tired from working and traveling. I don't think he would make a very good companion. I would HAVE NEVER wanted him 24/7...I probably would have killed him....lol...

 

So do I have compassion for her....Yeah I think so.....

[bentnotbroken]

Yes, I did feel sorry for her! That is why I STOPPED the A. Right in the middle when all was good...or supposed to be!

 

I didn't feel right doing this to another woman AT ALL. And I asked him "Don't you feel guilty doing this to her?" His reply, Nope not at all! I am doing this for ME...(xMM) and right after I thought about it for a couple of days I said See Ya....Don't want to be with someone who feels no remorse or has icewater running through his veins. I think the word is narcissistic.

 

I felt sorry for her from the aspect of her having to be married to him and live with him. Yes, she gets the trimmings of the nice big fact paycheck, big house, new car, new clothes and furniture...but Nothing else. They don't go out as a couple, or have married friends. She keeps to herself and he travels constantly all over the world. When he is home he lays on the couch because he is tired from working and traveling. I don't think he would make a very good companion. I would HAVE NEVER wanted him 24/7...I probably would have killed him....lol...

 

So do I have compassion for her....Yeah I think so.....

 

 

Naw, it's a-clown. Being a narcissist isn't necessary.

[Spark1111]

It's impossible to have genuine compassion or empathy for the wife while you are helping to destroy her marriage and hope, want her husband for your own.

 

It's an oxymoron.

 

You can say you do, you can think you do if it makes you feel better about yourself and your actions, but it is impossible to be empathetic or compassionate to a woman you are helping to hurt.

[MissBee]

I would have to think of her first to have empathy and compassion for her. She was something standing in the way of our happyness. Thank dog that's past!!!

 

Daisy...didn't you used to post threads about how she was ruining your life? How quickly we forget

[Lostinlife4now]

Naw, it's a-clown. Being a narcissist isn't necessary.

 

No bent....he was definitely a narcissist...ALWAYS ABOUT HIM!!!! UGH!!!! And he always tried to pass himself off as the "Nice Guy"...I don't think so. I just wish I had the balls to tell her...W deserves so much better than him, And I hope she gets some happiness some day. He is a control freak...handles all the money, gives her a daily allowance, HE IS THE BOSS!!!!!! :sick::sick:

[BrighterWashing]

Just wanted to say thanks for all the replies. I never claimed to have much compassion for her, and don't think she has any for me. I was just curious because she keeps saying it.

[jwi71]

Sorry for being dense- but what's your question? What does it mean to me and H? You mean my compassion for H or for OW?

 

I'll try to answer both.

 

I don't excuse H behavior. But I understand he was suffering from depression, I was trying to help him but nothing I did was what he needed partly because he blamed me for starting his depression. I feel for how lonely he was when we weren't getting through to each other and I see totally why when presented with a pretty, educated woman who really wanted his attention he fell for it. That's my compassion for him. I don't think he acted the right way by a long shot but I do have compassion.

 

I have compassion for the OW to this extent: she didn't want to stay married and was unhappy, but she didn't want to be single either (a single mom anyway). She genuinely fears men only are attracted to her body and feels no one loves her for herself. I can understand that and it would be an awful feeling. I'm sorry she felt that, wouldn't wish it on anyone. I see how that led her to H who clearly didn't just go for looks as I am disfigured. I think when he dumped her she really couldn't believe it and truly suffered. I told him he should tell her sooner but he thought it was kinder to say less and let her lick her wounds. I still think I was more compassionate than he was- I could tell she needed the truth or she wouldn't move on.

 

But is that what you meant? I don't claim to have tons of compassion for her. I own that. But she doesn't for me either and yet says it every frucking week!

 

I don't mean to start a pissing contest I'm looking for a variety of views and tolerance fr us all for the differences.

 

What I meant was...did your H feel love and compassion for you during his A.

 

What do you think he felt towards you during his A?

 

Ask your H what he felt towards you during his A.

 

The answer your H gives is the same as what you will receive here...ultimately "no".

 

And playing a bit of a semantic game, the key word is DURING. Like Spark says, its impossible to have love or empathy towards someone you are actively hurting and/or betraying.

 

However, I do believe that is perfectly possible that a participant in an A can, after the A (and with some hard work), truly feel love, compassion and empathy towards the betrayed.

 

So...yes and no is my answer depending on if the A is ongoing or not.

[BrighterWashing]

Jwi71 ah I see, got it.

 

No, of course he didn't during the affair. He felt guilt and he says GE thought he felt compassion but now realizes he can't have because he didn't stop (kind of the point earlier). He spoke to her (I've read the chats) of being able to leave me because it would destroy me, but didn't propose ending it. And he later moved during the A to saying he would leave me.

 

I agree it's not possible during the affair and she claims she did (often!). I never thought it made sense.

 

She claims she has it now but I can't see it. To me if post A someone had compassion she would not keep contacting us and our family (I can see other reasons to do that too- like not wanting to humiliate herself- but she doesn't see that either).

[skylarblue]

To me compassion means having sympathy for and making an effort to help and/or not cause harm towards that in which the compassion is directed to. So, logically, I don’t think the OW can say that they had compassion for the BS while in an A. Compassion would have been not getting involved with her H in the first place. Compassion would have been recognizing my part as the source of her pain and therefore ending the A and all contact. Even after dday and the A, I continued to stay in contact with MM. So, logically, I didn’t have any compassion for the BS...

 

However, I thought I had some compassion for the BS because I did not want her to find out about the A. I would never have outted MM to her because IRL I didn’t want to cause her that kind of pain. I would never have asked him to leave her. I wasn’t that kind of OW, the kind that would break up her family. That, I thought, was compassionate…kinda…some kind of…

 

Again, from a logical and objective point of view, I can’t believe in an ongoing A and compassion going hand-in-hand. But from an OW and subjective point, I can understand the possible thought.