"All MMs are liars"... and SGs? Others?

[OWoman]

We get told here often enough that all MM / MW are liars. Currently there is a thread of "lines" that them lyin' cheatin' no good downright evil MMs spun to their trusting OWs.

 

Some of us have been unable to participate in that thread, since we were never spun lines, nor lied to, and have felt uneasy in participating in a slagging-off-fest against the Universal MM who is so mean, malicious, and manipulative (on the one hand) and stoopid, transparent, and cliched (on the other).

 

So, hopefully this thread will be a little more inclusive, and allow some space for everyone to participate, whatever their views.

 

My question is: how did your A rate i.t.o. honesty, compared to other Rs you've had? Were you more or less honest with your AP than you have been with other SOs? Do you feel your AP was more or less honest with you than your other SOs have been?

[torranceshipman]

Let me raise a comment straight away: many OW will still classify an MM as a bad nasty liar - regardless of whether they have personally been lied to - because they have lied to someone - the W, the girlfriend, the kids, the family...for some OW, they hate the lies even if the MM isn't lying to them directly. Conversely, for some OW, they will only classify an MM as a liar if they were lied to directly. And finally, many OW simply believe whatever the MM tells them, so are probably too involved in the situation to understand when they are being lied to.

 

Just wanted to point that out...I was briefly involved (yrs ago) with a guy who had a girlfriend and looking back he was by far the biggest liar ever. Obviously because he lied to his girlfriend, lied to his friends (although I told them openly what was going on...why lie to them?) and lied to me (we were friends previously and he knew me very well - enough to know exactly what to say to get and keep me onside, most of which was untrue!).

 

I do think SG's can lie too, though...

[silktricks]

single guy

[2sure]

When I was seeing MM, none of them were involved in an open marriage, all of them lied to their wives about where they were and all of them kept our affair a secret from their spouses. So, they were "liars". Not to me, but obviously to their spouse.

 

It didnt bother me at the time I suppose because they were not betraying Me. They were not my spouse. Some of them would , at the start, try to give me the same old MM stories ( marriage on paper only, staying for the kids, no sex at home) almost in an obligatory way , until they realized I didnt want to hear it. So, I never did believe the lies and I guess a lie unbelieved ...is pretty harmless to me. I liked the affairs much more when MM did not lie to me. I liked the individuals much more when they were honest to me, and all were....lol...but yeah, I knew they were liars. Just not to me.

 

Unless the MM has an open marriage, he is lying to the person in his life that possibly loves and trusts him the most. Period.

And I have to say that for myself as OW, there was no justifying that, I just didnt care.

[Lizzie60]

same here.. they have no reasons to lie to me.. so we're pretty opened about just anything... I don,t want them.. so if they have sex with their W the night before.. it's no big deal.. they tell me...

[grogster]

In a perverse way, the MM's dishonesty and deception with his BS drives him to be transparently honest and forthright with the OW. It's as if he tells himself that by being honest with the OW his lies and deceit with the BS do not define him as a person. "See, I'm not totally evil because I can be honest with one woman."

 

The BS gets doubly rejected: first, because she's a spouse; second, becuase her very role in this crime of the heart generates unpleasant associations in the MM's mind about his own lack of integrity. Perversely, the OW helps the MM feel/believe that he's a better person (than he actually is) because he can be "honest" in a dishonest relationship.

 

It's akin to Norman Mailer having affairs with fat women his age, as opposed to attractive younger women, because he believed that his k-mart OW selection would make his serial infidelities more trifeling, and less hurtful, to whomever his wife was at the time.

[Fallen Angel]

I think my relationship with My Sweetheart is such that we have to be honest with each other. He did in the beginning lie by ommission.

 

When I found out we had a serious heart to heart about the fact that lying is one thing I can not tolerate. I accepted far too many lies from my now exhusband to be willing to accept them from any other man who comes into my life!

 

Since then, I believe he has been honest with me. If he has lied, I have not caught it, but really, at this point in our relationship there is no reason for him to lie to me, nor I to him.

 

On the other hand, in my marriage I was lied to constantly. I think my exhusband is a compulsive liar among all his other idiosyncrasies. After a time, I just got used to being lied to. I reached a point of just not caring anymore. What he did or did not do was not vitally important to me, so I let him lie if it made him feel better. It was not as though I was buying any of what he was selling.

 

The worst part though is that he would tell lies to other people, and expect me to back him up on his lies. Lies about stupid things, like the amount of time he served in the military, or how much schooling he had. They were never lies about important things where the truth would have made a difference to his life, he was just a braggart.

 

More than once I had to bite my tongue and excuse myself from the mess so that I would not feel obligated to become a part of his fantastical tales.

[BlueeyedJonesy]

I think the same can be said about MM lying to the BS...My H lied to me about everything in his past...very damaging. Sg's have nothing to lie about but they still do..something is to be said about that.

[2sure]

It's akin to Norman Mailer having affairs with fat women his age, as opposed to attractive younger women, because he believed that his k-mart OW selection would make his serial infidelities more trifeling, and less hurtful, to whomever his wife was at the time.

 

Whoa. This is exactly what my H did. I just couldnt figure it out and he couldnt explain it. I actually thought at one point that he might be into demeaning himself, but that wasnt it. You've hit on something for me.

 

Oh yeah, and I wanted to add that when a MM lies to their spouse...and is relatively honest with OW...its easy for the MM to feel like OW is his BEST FRIEND - because he has a completely open avenue to discuss his dishonesty, because he has a partner in crime so to speak, and because he has someone to show how clever he is. All kinds of reasons. Like I said in another thread...they all thought we were great friends.

 

I'm sure they are just as great friends with the OW that came after me.

LOL. Also...god bless the OW who is with a first time MM having an affair:

He'll feel like he INVENTED extra marital sex, he will make you feel like you are the best thing since sliced bread, and he will scoff at his buddies still playing golf for stress relief. Its funny really, but spot on.

[grogster]

 

Whoa. This is exactly what my H did. I just couldnt figure it out and he couldnt explain it. I actually thought at one point that he might be into demeaning himself, but that wasnt it. You've hit on something for me.

 

Oh yeah, and I wanted to add that when a MM lies to their spouse...and is relatively honest with OW...its easy for the MM to feel like OW is his BEST FRIEND - because he has a completely open avenue to discuss his dishonesty, because he has a partner in crime so to speak, and because he has someone to show how clever he is. All kinds of reasons. Like I said in another thread...they all thought we were great friends.

 

I'm sure they are just as great friends with the OW that came after me.

LOL. Also...god bless the OW who is with a first time MM having an affair:

He'll feel like he INVENTED extra marital sex, he will make you feel like you are the best thing since sliced bread, and he will scoff at his buddies still playing golf for stress relief. Its funny really, but spot on.

 

Well said, 2sure. With the OW, the MM can be "honest" about his dishonesty, and not feel like he's such a bad guy, so his consience is clear (or at least partly cloudy) and the bond between the APs deepens as a result. The only thing worse than a secret is a shared secret.

 

The betrayed wife pays the price for her husband's lies in so many ways.

 

As for "inventing" steamy affair sex, I'm guilty of that, too.

 

It's a learning process.

[ADF]

A MM (or MW, for that matter) who carries on a clandestine affair is a liar by definition. And, frankly, he (or she) is probably a GOOD liar. Carrying on an affair behind a spouse's back is hard work. Not only does the person having the affair have to frequently lie and mislead in order to keep the affair secret, they must show no signs of mental stress from having done so. Is this even a serious question?

[jj33]

He told the polite lies one tells to others because although his W knew, it would have caused her great embarrassment if others knew.

 

So far as lies go, I think that they dont really count as lies. They are the polite white lies we all tell all the time.

 

His worst lies were pretending to himself that he wasnt in love with me and then falling all over himself trying to stop showing that he was. He got over that eventually but it was tiresome.

[2sure]

Interesting thought jj!

 

Mm is lying to OW when he denies, even to himself, what he really wants.

He is lying to OW whenever he says "He Can't leave"..the only time it is not a lie is when she doesnt want him to leave anyway.

[jj33]

Excellent point 2Sure. I cant means "I dont wanna and you cant make me"

 

Actually I think that in many ways xMM and I had a more honest relationship than I have had with many because we really understood each other.

 

Neither of us will ever go down in the books as great emotional communicators. But we understood each others' coded style of communication - for better or for worse.

[ladydesigner]

Oh yeah, and I wanted to add that when a MM lies to their spouse...and is relatively honest with OW...its easy for the MM to feel like OW is his BEST FRIEND - because he has a completely open avenue to discuss his dishonesty, because he has a partner in crime so to speak, and because he has someone to show how clever he is. All kinds of reasons. Like I said in another thread...they all thought we were great friends.

 

2sure you are so correct in this. While I am a MOW and my XOM had a long-term girlfriend (they might as well have been married). I always thought, and we had stated this in the beginning of our R, that we would not lie to each other. My XAP was like a very good friend to me. He actually told me, after our A ended, that I was his best friend. He also used the exact words that I was his "partner in crime" lol. We did confide in each other things that we were not confiding in our current R's, hence the EA/ partner in crime. Even when I decided to go NC he said he was sorry for everything...again... and said that he was really sad that I could no longer be his friend.

[2sure]

There is something to be said I suppose, for the opportunity to be uninhibited emotionally, opinion-wise, sexually, humorously, etc...in a relationship that has no expectations, demands, or future...one in which the other person is not going to tell a soul about your relationship let alone that you hate your mother in law. Add to that the fact that MM pretty much knows you arent judging him because...hey, he is a cheater and your ok with that. And...maybe he isnt judging OW either because...hey, she is banging someone elses H and he is ok with that!

 

Just a thought.

[StoptheDrama]

how did your A rate i.t.o. honesty, compared to other Rs you've had? I'd have to say pretty poorly with one exception

 

Were you more or less honest with your AP than you have been with other SOs? For the most part I have always been very open as to who I am - my quirks and eternal geekiness He really seemed to get me and appreciate me for who I am or so I thought - it had been a very long time since I had felt that way.

 

Do you feel your AP was more or less honest with you than your other SOs have been? With one exception when I was much younger, he was by far less honest than my previous SO's.

 

I don't want to speculate as to his feelings or the reasons for his behavior - I've already spent far too much time doing that during and after ending the A. Did he try to keep me/does he try to get back with me because he loves me? Don't know and I can now honestly say I don't care. If it's love, it's a perverse form of which I want no part. Did he lie to hurt me? Again I don't know but he did a bang-up job. Did/does he lie to himself? Who knows. All I know are his actions and that is what I judge him by.

[ladydesigner]

Sorry I never answered the initial questions

 

How did your A rate i.t.o. honesty, compared to other Rs you've had? I was honest from the get go. He already knew I was married with kids and knew I was extremely hurt and unhappy with my M.I was always honest about how my feelings progressed with him and how my M was. He never asked if I was still having sex with my H and I never asked if he was having sex with his girlfriend. I believe we both had unexpectedly fallen for each other and knew it was wrong and knew it couldn't lead to anything. It still hurt just the same when it ended though. I was probably most honest in this relationship.

 

Were you more or less honest with your AP than you have been with other SOs?

My answer above also applies to this question as well. I was more honest with my AP than I have been in my M and past relationships.

 

Do you feel your AP was more or less honest with you than your other SOs have been?

I thought my AP was just as honest as past partners, my H has not been honest with me so I do not count him. When my XAP ended the A many of the things he said to me told me he was being dishonest to me the whole A. i felt extremely led on, childish, and pitiful upon ending.

[Spoiled]

We get told here often enough that all MM / MW are liars. Currently there is a thread of "lines" that them lyin' cheatin' no good downright evil MMs spun to their trusting OWs.

 

Some of us have been unable to participate in that thread, since we were never spun lines, nor lied to, and have felt uneasy in participating in a slagging-off-fest against the Universal MM who is so mean, malicious, and manipulative (on the one hand) and stoopid, transparent, and cliched (on the other).

 

So, hopefully this thread will be a little more inclusive, and allow some space for everyone to participate, whatever their views.

 

My question is: how did your A rate i.t.o. honesty, compared to other Rs you've had? Were you more or less honest with your AP than you have been with other SOs? Do you feel your AP was more or less honest with you than your other SOs have been?

 

My MM was probably more honest with me because his W and I were friends and we were all friends for over 10 years. We could not feed each other lines of having evil spouses. If anything, we discussed how pathetic we were for betraying them. We knew each others' parents, in-laws, previous coworkers, and friends. His W and I were connected on facebook. We could not lie about vacations, we have stayed in each others' homes(the last being 2yrs before A began) and know the birthdays of our children.

 

I believe my MM and I felt far more comfortable in our A because we were friends for so long. Our spouses were not strangers to us and we trusted one another. My MM and I always had more personal conversations than my H and I, even before my M. I was shocked when his W told me how "private" he was because he was always open with me through the years. And I don't mean negative information. He asked me for advice about personal decisions years before our A. Whereas, my H would make decisions, then tell me. We gave each other far more than just sexual pleasure.

[pureinheart]

He told the polite lies one tells to others because although his W knew, it would have caused her great embarrassment if others knew.

 

So far as lies go, I think that they dont really count as lies. They are the polite white lies we all tell all the time.

 

His worst lies were pretending to himself that he wasnt in love with me and then falling all over himself trying to stop showing that he was. He got over that eventually but it was tiresome.

 

Interesting thought jj!

 

Mm is lying to OW when he denies, even to himself, what he really wants.

He is lying to OW whenever he says "He Can't leave"..the only time it is not a lie is when she doesnt want him to leave anyway.

 

Wow, this is major food for thought....an interesting evaluation.

[pureinheart]

Excellent point 2Sure. I cant means "I dont wanna and you cant make me"

 

Actually I think that in many ways xMM and I had a more honest relationship than I have had with many because we really understood each other.

 

Neither of us will ever go down in the books as great emotional communicators. But we understood each others' coded style of communication - for better or for worse.

 

OMG this is good! I felt uncomfortable getting too deep because he was M'ed and I did not want to seem like I was pushing him, as I have a tendancy to be pushy in this area....so thus we had what you call "codes"...

[fooled once]

We get told here often enough that all MM / MW are liars. Currently there is a thread of "lines" that them lyin' cheatin' no good downright evil MMs spun to their trusting OWs.

 

Some of us have been unable to participate in that thread, since we were never spun lines, nor lied to, and have felt uneasy in participating in a slagging-off-fest against the Universal MM who is so mean, malicious, and manipulative (on the one hand) and stoopid, transparent, and cliched (on the other).

 

So, hopefully this thread will be a little more inclusive, and allow some space for everyone to participate, whatever their views.

 

My question is: how did your A rate i.t.o. honesty, compared to other Rs you've had? Were you more or less honest with your AP than you have been with other SOs? Do you feel your AP was more or less honest with you than your other SOs have been?

 

I guess I am confused...aren't affairs based on a lie to at least 1 person, therefore, the cheater is lying, ie., a liar?

 

How did my affair rate to dating single guys?

 

Obviously, the single guys were single.

 

There was no issue with me going to dinner at the single guys house (because there was no wife there).

 

With a single guy, there wasn't a restriction on when he could/couldn't call or come over as there is in MANY cases in an affair. Not ALL affairs, but I would guess MOST.

 

There was no worry about credit card bills, leaving a hair tie or something in his car, or in his house.

 

There are MANY difference, imho, between the two different relationships.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Are MM (the ones who stay married) really honest? I was never completely honest with any of the OM I was with. Honesty would not go over too well. Imagine how this honesty would go over ...

 

I might as well tell you now that this relationship has an expiration date. I am content in the relationship I already have but I really miss the thrills that come with something 'new', so I'll just hang with you for a while for some NSA sex and heady romance until it gets obligational or boring. Then I'll cut you loose and either look for someone else, or go back to my primary relationship for a while until giving that my full attention brings me back to the same ennui that led me to have an affair. You are a great person, and I may or may not develop real feelings for you, but they won't lead to anything permanent and I really don't have much use for you outside of an affair.

 

Cheaters by definition have to be liars, and damned savvy ones. If they weren't they wouldn't get away with it and moreover no one in their right mind would be with them.

 

I don't think this counts in the case of exit affairs though. Only your garden variety "they aren't ever leaving" affairs.

 

Once you strip them of the hearts and roses, affairs really aren't that pretty and are only as strong as the lies that hold them together.

 

As a single person, I don't have to lie in the same way. Why? Because being with a single person is not the same as having an affair. The two don't really compare. A single person can lie to you just as much as a married person can, but it wouldn't the same sort of lying since the motivations would be different. A single person lies to protect himself. A married one lies to protect more.

Edited April 8, 2010 by LucreziaBorgia

[pureinheart]

My question is: how did your A rate i.t.o. honesty, compared to other Rs you've had? Were you more or less honest with your AP than you have been with other SOs? Do you feel your AP was more or less honest with you than your other SOs have been?

 

I know my opinion is extremely unpopular, although since this isn't a popularity contest...lol...here goes.

 

This is a difficult question as I am of the opinion that everybody has/will lies about something. Some lie more often than others...using myself, I will lie if I feel I'm not understood, I will lie to protect another.

 

I used to lie to my mother concerning my whereabouts constantly because I wanted to party and she was very judgmental, I was unable to tell her the truth because she couldn't handle it....my kids lied to me for the same reason.

 

I think by far exDM told me the truth, actually more than anyone because I did not judge him, he felt comfortable telling me the truth even if I freaked out on him, I STILL accepted him...telling the truth and acceptance can go hand in hand.

 

Now I told my exFiancee the truth about me doing drugs....he called me everything but human....go figure.

[Susmay]

We get told here often enough that all MM / MW are liars. Currently there is a thread of "lines" that them lyin' cheatin' no good downright evil MMs spun to their trusting OWs.

 

 

Some of us have been unable to participate in that thread, since we were never spun lines, nor lied to, and have felt uneasy in participating in a slagging-off-fest against the Universal MM who is so mean, malicious, and manipulative (on the one hand) and stoopid, transparent, and cliched (on the other).

 

So, hopefully this thread will be a little more inclusive, and allow some space for everyone to participate, whatever their views.

 

My question is: how did your A rate i.t.o. honesty, compared to other Rs you've had? Were you more or less honest with your AP than you have been with other SOs? Do you feel your AP was more or less honest with you than your other SOs have been?

 

You have to admit some of the lines are so amusing and surprisingly generic even if nobody ever actually told you those lines. You also have to admit the certainty that the guys you were involved with were lying to somebody even if not you. They must have been mean and manipulative towards someone even if not you.

 

My only dalliance with infidelity was not as an OW but it was an exit affair (probably not really the right word for it) from a dead relationship (not marriage). It's absolutely true that we hadn't had sex for 2 years, and that it was his doing not mine. The funny thing was I never ever told that particular line to the other guy, but it would have been the truth if i had.

 

The affair did not even outlast the primary relationship. I left as soon as I could. I felt incredibly guilty about the lying to my partner and resolved I would never ever do it again and I haven't. Is it my Karma that I later married and became a BW.? I don't believe in Karma but some might say I deserved it. Although to be honest my partner probably knew and understood our relationship was over a long time before I did as he had moved states to get away from me.

 

To answer your questions: I was definitely less honest with the person with whom I had the "affair" as well. He was a SG who said he loved me and I just wanted to get out of the relationship with my boyfriend. The whole relationship was founded on lies, deceit and dishonesty and, I have to say, manipulation of the SG to be with me and keep it secret when he really wanted openness.

 

Never ever again!

 

I sense OWoman that you are trying to get other OW to see that it's possible that an affair can have some sort of ring-fenced honesty within itself. I totally disagree with you.