Update - he's back, but did I do the right thing?

[Tashcw]

In a nutshell:

 

He broke NC last night via text (4 weeks, 2 days later). Apparently he misses me, said he has just needed this time alone to sort his head out, he just really wanted to get it right and that if I hadn’t moved on, he wanted me to know that he was honestly on his own, still living in his own apartment etc.

 

I said that I had nothing to say as had said it all before. He asked if I had moved on and I said that I wasn’t going to answer that, and certainly not by text.

 

He also said he didn't take his wife on our ski holiday, but spent the week alone. Over a number of texts throughout the evening and 2 phone calls, he said he still wasn't sure what he wanted to do, ended up sobbing and saying he loved me. I refused to buy into it, told him he was a mess and needed to speak to a therapist and he owed it to everyone to do that. Also refused to tell him whether I'd "moved on" or not, which he didn't much like!

 

So (and this is what I'm not sure is right!) I rang his wife (who previously I had got on ok with, under the circumstances!). I figured it’s the only way to know how much he's lying or not and I do miss him, every single day. Left her a message saying (briefly) what he’d said and saying that I just wanted to know what was happening as I had no idea what to believe anymore and that if they were thinking of getting back together I did not want to be involved.

 

ANYWAY, coming to the end of this, in summary there are 3 things:

 

1) I didn’t fall apart by crying / saying I missed him (or ANYTHING similar – I was bl00dy careful, even though I was shaking like crazy). I remained bright, calm and detached.

 

2) My self-esteem is now boosted! But that doesn’t mean that he’s getting another chance (yet, if ever) – it’s purely a smug, smug feeling as I at least now know that he wasn't able to easily discard me and I felt utterly used previously

 

3) I couldn’t have been as strong as I was without LS. I miss him like crazy every day, and would have been so easy to tell him to come to mine last night (he was on his way at one point and I told him to turn back), but I decided to remain strong. So THANK YOU.

 

His wife has now texted and said she wants to speak later. I genuinely don't want to hurt her, but this isn't an affair situation really. I'm confused though! Any advice? (Bit too late but maybe I shouldn't have rung her!)

Edited March 19, 2010 by Tashcw
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[Fallen Angel]

I honestly do not remember your whole story, and the truth is I am a bit on the lazy side today, so I have not yet gone back to read it.

 

I think that if he is contacting you after extended NC, and says he is free and available, that you have the right to speak with his (ex? soon to be ex?) wife to find out if you are getting the whole story.

 

I see people talk about NC as a tool to give the space needed to make up ones mind about what they want, it appears at face value he has done that, and he wants you. Perhaps he does need some counseling before you resume a relationship with him, and perhaps you both need more time and space. But in my opinion, if his story checks out, and you love this man, I see no reason to close the door completely.

 

Good luck on which ever path you decide to walk... ((hugs))

[whichwayisup]

Also refused to tell him whether I'd "moved on" or not, which he didn't much like!

Ofcourse he didn't like that.. He was FISHING. To see if you were still available/interested in him.

[Brokenlady]

Apparently he misses me, said he has just needed this time alone to sort his head out, he just really wanted to get it right and that if I hadn’t moved on, he wanted me to know that he was honestly on his own, still living in his own apartment etc.

 

Over a number of texts throughout the evening and 2 phone calls, he said he still wasn't sure what he wanted to do, ended up sobbing and saying he loved me. I refused to buy into it, told him he was a mess and needed to speak to a therapist and he owed it to everyone to do that.

 

Apparently 4 weeks was not enough. This smells like a desperation move to keep you hooked and keep you from moving on while he "sorts it out". He hasn't filed for divorce. He isn't done yet.

 

I don't think you did anything wrong by calling the W. Its her choice to call you back or not - it's not harrassment or anything unless you keep calling. And it would be good for you two to compare notes since you're dealing with someone with a strong history of lying to get what he wants.

 

But I'd tell him you want to stay total NC with him until the D is at least filed, preferrably by him. (If she files, I'd wait until it's final).

 

He isn't done. He's still unsure, and he's being jerky by not respecting your need for NC until he IS sure. It's manipulative.

[Tashcw]

Spot on as usual you guys. THANK YOU again for your input. She texted and said she didn't want to speak to me as she didn't see the point. So guess it's just back to NC - your posts have reinforced the fact that at a minimum I need to wait til he is fully divorced!

[Fallen Angel]

Spot on as usual you guys. THANK YOU again for your input. She texted and said she didn't want to speak to me as she didn't see the point. So guess it's just back to NC - your posts have reinforced the fact that at a minimum I need to wait til he is fully divorced!

 

I am confused, because to me, her saying that she doesn't see the point, indicates that what he is saying is the truth. If they were still involved with each other, do you not think she would say so immediately, so as to back you off?

 

Please explain why this indicates to you the need to push him away, rather than to at a minimum allow him to understand that as long as he keeps moving in the right direction (towards being with you exclusively) the door is still open.

 

I mean, by enforcing strict NC with him, do you not wonder why he would start to question if he is doing the right thing in hoping for a relationship with you?

 

It is times like this that NC confuses me. It seems to me that if you want a relationship with him, NC is harmful towards your purpose, as it can make him feel abandoned and alone and think that no matter what he does you will not resume a relationship with him. If you do not want a relationship with him, then NC is the way to go, but if you wish to be in a committed relationship, then would not limited contact be more conducive to the outcome you desire?... am I the only one who feels like that?

[D-Lish]

he said he still wasn't sure what he wanted to do

 

Then he's not allowed back into your life! That needs to be the bottom line you stick to.

[Brokenlady]

I am confused, because to me, her saying that she doesn't see the point, indicates that what he is saying is the truth. If they were still involved with each other, do you not think she would say so immediately, so as to back you off?

 

WHo knows what she meant exactly or what her motivation is. Maybe she meant there is no point because they are back together and the OW is irrelevant.

 

Please explain why this indicates to you the need to push him away, rather than to at a minimum allow him to understand that as long as he keeps moving in the right direction (towards being with you exclusively) the door is still open.

 

It is times like this that NC confuses me. It seems to me that if you want a relationship with him, NC is harmful towards your purpose, as it can make him feel abandoned and alone and think that no matter what he does you will not resume a relationship with him.

 

The bottom line is he isn't respecting the boundary she set (NC til he's certain). He's still unsure, still hasn't filed and is just trying to keep her hooked so she doesn't move on while he takes his sweet time doing nothing.

 

This is less about the OP getting what she wants in the short term and more about getting what she deserves in the long term. Right now, he is not prepared to offer her the kind of relationship she deserves, though she may "want" to be with him.

 

FA, I had the exact same logic as you in my R, and I got burned big time. I wasted years of my life on someone who never respected my feelings or boundaries and all because - boo hoo - it was "hard" for him to leave his xW and get divorced and then live like a normal divorced person with boundaries with his xW. If I had let it go at the point the OP did, I KNOW, and he has acknowledged that he would have gone back to his xW. Sure, that would have hurt, but in the long term, I would have seen that it wasn't going to work between us because of the type of person he was. I got what I wanted in the short term - he got divorced and was with me, but it was in no way worth the long term loss.

 

And just to further my point, he recently told me that he can't handle being alone anymore since I left him and is going back to his xW. So, I told him - once again - to leave me alone but this time I added that if he so much as sends me a smoke signal, I'm calling the cops on him.

 

If the OP goes back now, she's telling him she accepts his indecision and indecisive actions (fence-straddling). It isn't worth it. I lost so much....be smarter than me Tasha.

Edited March 20, 2010 by Brokenlady

[Fallen Angel]

WHo knows what she meant exactly or what her motivation is. Maybe she meant there is no point because they are back together and the OW is irrelevant.

 

 

 

The bottom line is he isn't respecting the boundary she set (NC til he's certain). He's still unsure, still hasn't filed and is just trying to keep her hooked so she doesn't move on while he takes his sweet time doing nothing.

 

This is less about the OP getting what she wants in the short term and more about getting what she deserves in the long term. Right now, he is not prepared to offer her the kind of relationship she deserves, though she may "want" to be with him.

 

FA, I had the exact same logic as you in my R, and I got burned big time. I wasted years of my life on someone who never respected my feelings or boundaries and all because - boo hoo - it was "hard" for him to leave his xW and get divorced and then live like a normal divorced person with boundaries with his xW. If I had let it go at the point the OP did, I KNOW, and he has acknowledged that he would have gone back to his xW. Sure, that would have hurt, but in the long term, I would have seen that it wasn't going to work between us because of the type of person he was. I got what I wanted in the short term - he got divorced and was with me, but it was in no way worth the long term loss.

 

And just to further my point, he recently told me that he can't handle being alone anymore since I left him and is going back to his xW. So, I told him - once again - to leave me alone but this time I added that if he so much as sends me a smoke signal, I'm calling the cops on him.

 

If the OP goes back now, she's telling him she accepts his indecision and indecisive actions (fence-straddling). It isn't worth it. I lost so much....be smarter than me Tasha.

 

I am not suggesting that she move him in and set up housekeeping with him. I am suggesting that if he has been making moves towards showing her that she is the one he wants to be with, then she should reopen a line of communication with him. I can well imagine he would be confused and not know what to do at this point. Afterall, if I am reading this correctly, he left his wife and is trying to do the things that Op has said he needs to do, yet she is still keeping NC. What hope does that give him, what incentive is there for him to move forward to do what she requires of him, surely he is thinking that he will jump through her hoops only to find that she has moved on without him. If he was having trouble leaving the marriage because he is torn between his "family" (not specifically his wife) and the OP, then continued NC at this point will surely push him back to his family.

 

Seems counter-productive to me. Of course, i am veiwing this with an understanding of the split-self, which many here have not bothered to really learn about.

Edited March 20, 2010 by Fallen Angel
fixing typos as per usual

[Hazyhead]

WHo knows what she meant exactly or what her motivation is. Maybe she meant there is no point because they are back together and the OW is irrelevant.

 

 

 

The bottom line is he isn't respecting the boundary she set (NC til he's certain). He's still unsure, still hasn't filed and is just trying to keep her hooked so she doesn't move on while he takes his sweet time doing nothing.

 

This is less about the OP getting what she wants in the short term and more about getting what she deserves in the long term. Right now, he is not prepared to offer her the kind of relationship she deserves, though she may "want" to be with him.

 

FA, I had the exact same logic as you in my R, and I got burned big time. I wasted years of my life on someone who never respected my feelings or boundaries and all because - boo hoo - it was "hard" for him to leave his xW and get divorced and then live like a normal divorced person with boundaries with his xW. If I had let it go at the point the OP did, I KNOW, and he has acknowledged that he would have gone back to his xW. Sure, that would have hurt, but in the long term, I would have seen that it wasn't going to work between us because of the type of person he was. I got what I wanted in the short term - he got divorced and was with me, but it was in no way worth the long term loss.

 

And just to further my point, he recently told me that he can't handle being alone anymore since I left him and is going back to his xW. So, I told him - once again - to leave me alone but this time I added that if he so much as sends me a smoke signal, I'm calling the cops on him.

 

If the OP goes back now, she's telling him she accepts his indecision and indecisive actions (fence-straddling). It isn't worth it. I lost so much....be smarter than me Tasha.

 

I'm sorry you're still going through it with him, BL. I agree with you that I'd rather take the hurt in the short term than try to work through their issues (and most often it is just their issues) with them, because you bear the brunt. FA, I do understand what you are saying but I couldn't do it. I didn't do it - I nearly lost my mind trying to do so and in the end, I have lost him, but I still have my sanity. I couldn't have risked any more on him.

 

Tash - I think you're doing really well. Stay strong!

[califnan]

In a nutshell:

 

He broke NC last night via text (4 weeks, 2 days later). Apparently he misses me, said he has just needed this time alone to sort his head out, he just really wanted to get it right and that if I hadn’t moved on, he wanted me to know that he was honestly on his own, still living in his own apartment etc.

 

I said that I had nothing to say as had said it all before. He asked if I had moved on and I said that I wasn’t going to answer that, and certainly not by text.

 

He also said he didn't take his wife on our ski holiday, but spent the week alone. Over a number of texts throughout the evening and 2 phone calls, he said he still wasn't sure what he wanted to do, ended up sobbing and saying he loved me. I refused to buy into it, told him he was a mess and needed to speak to a therapist and he owed it to everyone to do that. Also refused to tell him whether I'd "moved on" or not, which he didn't much like!

 

So (and this is what I'm not sure is right!) I rang his wife (who previously I had got on ok with, under the circumstances!). I figured it’s the only way to know how much he's lying or not and I do miss him, every single day. Left her a message saying (briefly) what he’d said and saying that I just wanted to know what was happening as I had no idea what to believe anymore and that if they were thinking of getting back together I did not want to be involved.

 

ANYWAY, coming to the end of this, in summary there are 3 things:

 

1) I didn’t fall apart by crying / saying I missed him (or ANYTHING similar – I was bl00dy careful, even though I was shaking like crazy). I remained bright, calm and detached.

 

2) My self-esteem is now boosted! But that doesn’t mean that he’s getting another chance (yet, if ever) – it’s purely a smug, smug feeling as I at least now know that he wasn't able to easily discard me and I felt utterly used previously

 

3) I couldn’t have been as strong as I was without LS. I miss him like crazy every day, and would have been so easy to tell him to come to mine last night (he was on his way at one point and I told him to turn back), but I decided to remain strong. So THANK YOU.

 

His wife has now texted and said she wants to speak later. I genuinely don't want to hurt her, but this isn't an affair situation really. I'm confused though! Any advice? (Bit too late but maybe I shouldn't have rung her!)

 

 

-------------------------

 

You did well, Tashcw. There can be only two in a marriage. They must work it out - and without his Using you ..

 

FA, We're not talking about children who should be acknowledged for good or cooperative behavior .. We are talking about indecisive men who have sinned against Both their wives and the OW for - gain ..

[georgia girl]

I think you handled it well, but I think this is just the beginning of your contact with him again as well. My only advice would be for you to decide what you need and want in a healthy relationship and then hold him to it. That's the negotiations that go on in any relationship - whether someone is divorced, still married or even just friends.

 

Yes, we can love some people with all of our hearts. But, you reach a point of no return in relationships - where it either moves forward or its no longer any good for you. Therefore, if the person you love can't or are unwilling to give us the kiind of relationship which you personally have determined that you need, then you have to let them go. There is no set standard of what is healthy and rewarding for everyone. You have to decide for yourself what it is.

 

He may or may not be willing to give you the relationship that you have told him that you need. But, I think you're being very fair with yourself by setting boundaries and holding him to them. That, to me, is the healthiest thing you can do. I think you are setting yourself up for success, whatever the outcome.

[Brokenlady]

I am not suggesting that she move him in and set up housekeeping with him. I am suggesting that if he has been making moves towards showing her that she is the one he wants to be with, then she should reopen a line of communication with him. I can well imagine he would be confused and not know what to do at this point. Afterall, if I am reading this correctly, he left his wife and is trying to do the things that Op has said he needs to do, yet she is still keeping NC. What hope does that give him, what incentive is there for him to move forward to do what she requires of him, surely he is thinking that he will jump through her hoops only to find that she has moved on without him. If he was having trouble leaving the marriage because he is torn between his "family" (not specifically his wife) and the OP, then continued NC at this point will surely push him back to his family.

 

Seems counter-productive to me. Of course, i am veiwing this with an understanding of the split-self, which many here have not bothered to really learn about.

 

FA,

I've spent lots of time and have made many posts about my readings concerning split-selfers. I get it. I really do. The literature will tell you that it takes 2 years (minimum!) to resolve the split with therapy. As far as I can tell from the post, this guy isn't in therapy, and there's no guarantee that he'd resolve it that fast - or that it's even remotely worth the cost to tasha to dry his tears for that 2 years or more.

 

For me - after 4.5 years, it's not worth it. He ruined my sense of self-worth and usually made me feel second to his psychB xW. He lied and lied and lied some more to keep the door open with her while screwing me. And he WAS in therapy for almost 2 years. Yet, he's still not done. Not. Worth. It.

 

If Tasha's MM isn't willing to do what he needs to do without her there holding his hand, and runs back to his W, then it bespeaks how strong the pull to go home is. You don't want to live in the shadow of someone who is with you but some part of him wants to be at home with his xW....it's actually worse than being a straight-up OW. If he's going to run back, let him do it now, and do it fully rather than later after stringing you both along.

 

Tasha - I'm not necessarily advocating NC, but it ought to be very LC, and DO NOT sleep with him. Until he's completely sure he wants to be your boyfriend (and not someone else's H), don't give him boyfriend perks. It's not your job to "convince" him to be with you - if you try, you're going to feel like crap about yourself.

 

I completely understand that divorce is a loss...but I'd much rather see you comfort him through that REAL loss, than this imagined loss he has now while he hasn't even decided who he wants to be with. Comfort him AFTER he's made a concrete choice, not a moment before.

Edited March 20, 2010 by Brokenlady

[Brokenlady]

I'm sorry you're still going through it with him, BL. I agree with you that I'd rather take the hurt in the short term than try to work through their issues (and most often it is just their issues) with them, because you bear the brunt. FA, I do understand what you are saying but I couldn't do it. I didn't do it - I nearly lost my mind trying to do so and in the end, I have lost him, but I still have my sanity. I couldn't have risked any more on him.

 

Tash - I think you're doing really well. Stay strong!

 

 

HH - And you know what's hilarious? Despite my admonitions, he texted me this morn saying that he wants to talk, is there anything he can do so I will take him back?

 

WTF!!! Still flip-flopping. He just wants what he can't have. I gave him a million chances, and million warnings about how his behavior was affecting me and our relationship, and he kept doing his selfish thing anyway. He KNOWS he's wrong and that he messed up, but being alone forces him to face it, and he doesn't want to stare at his own bulls*** right in the face. So there he sits feeling all sorry for himself, really believing that he "sacrificed" and gave up so much to be with fickle ol' me, and yet I don't want to be with him anymore. Poor him. Such a victim. The reality: He made a lot of superficial moves, and flip-flopped daily, even hourly. He threw me under the bus many times as part of that process. That's the only outcome of staying with a MM who isn't 100% completely sure he is done with the M. Never. ever. again.

[Hazyhead]

HH - And you know what's hilarious? Despite my admonitions, he texted me this morn saying that he wants to talk, is there anything he can do so I will take him back?

 

WTF!!! Still flip-flopping. He just wants what he can't have. I gave him a million chances, and million warnings about how his behavior was affecting me and our relationship, and he kept doing his selfish thing anyway. He KNOWS he's wrong and that he messed up, but being alone forces him to face it, and he doesn't want to stare at his own bulls*** right in the face. So there he sits feeling all sorry for himself, really believing that he "sacrificed" and gave up so much to be with fickle ol' me, and yet I don't want to be with him anymore. Poor him. Such a victim. The reality: He made a lot of superficial moves, and flip-flopped daily, even hourly. He threw me under the bus many times as part of that process. That's the only outcome of staying with a MM who isn't 100% completely sure he is done with the M. Never. ever. again.

 

It's weird that when you used to talk about your xDM coming back to you time and time again, during the times I was in NC, I envied you. Now, I think what a pain in the *ss that must be for you that he won't just simply own his mistakes and let go of you. It's incredibly selfish of him that he keeps dragging you through it again and again and again. I think you're so strong to constantly stand up to him BL. You deserve, and will get, better than him.

[Brokenlady]

It's weird that when you used to talk about your xDM coming back to you time and time again, during the times I was in NC, I envied you. Now, I think what a pain in the *ss that must be for you that he won't just simply own his mistakes and let go of you. It's incredibly selfish of him that he keeps dragging you through it again and again and again. I think you're so strong to constantly stand up to him BL. You deserve, and will get, better than him.

 

It's only because I know he's full of it. I love him dearly, but I know he'll keep doing what he's always done - lull me into complacency then do the same old, same old hurt selfish things. He's shown me millions of times that despite the long separation and divorce, he'll keep crossing boundaries with her, keep hurting me, and never really love me the way I need him to. He just isn't done with the M yet. I had much more patience when this was all fresh and new. But it's been a long time and they're divorced. This flip-floppy crap should be over by now. Sure he's come a long way, but he's still not done yet. And I'm tired of throwing myself under the bus, basically begging him to love me while he betrays me.

 

I'd happily entertain his entreaties if I knew they were for real, but they aren't. It's just that his game is over and he wants to play again. Nothing to envy there.

[Hazyhead]

It's only because I know he's full of it. I love him dearly, but I know he'll keep doing what he's always done - lull me into complacency then do the same old, same old hurt selfish things. He's shown me millions of times that despite the long separation and divorce, he'll keep crossing boundaries with her, keep hurting me, and never really love me the way I need him to. He just isn't done with the M yet. I had much more patience when this was all fresh and new. But it's been a long time and they're divorced. This flip-floppy crap should be over by now. Sure he's come a long way, but he's still not done yet. And I'm tired of throwing myself under the bus, basically begging him to love me while he betrays me.

 

I'd happily entertain his entreaties if I knew they were for real, but they aren't. It's just that his game is over and he wants to play again. Nothing to envy there.

 

Exactly! What I meant was that, earlier on in your posts, before he pulled the back to his marriage/take his wife on holiday crap, I envied you and, with my hopeful-at-the-time head on, it totally surprised me. NOW, I have a completely different view and see so many of these men (including my xAP) for weak, selfish (though lovely at times) individuals that are only going to put themselves first. NOW I know there's nothing to envy, but you're so much tougher than you think BL, and I admire how you continue to pull yourself through it without giving into him.

[Brokenlady]

HH - sent you a PM to avoid further t/j-ing.

[Fallen Angel]

-------------------------

 

You did well, Tashcw. There can be only two in a marriage. They must work it out - and without his Using you ..

 

FA, We're not talking about children who should be acknowledged for good or cooperative behavior .. We are talking about indecisive men who have sinned against Both their wives and the OW for - gain ..

 

YOU are talking about men who have sinned. I was not granted the power of judgement from MY GOD. Perhaps YOUR GOD has offered that power to you. My God asks me not to judge others, and says that judgement is His Providence, mine is simply to love my neighbor. Having watched you pass out judgements upon others on this site, coupled with your quoting scripture when it satisfies your need to condemn others, I would suggest that your God is very different from Mine. So please do not preach at me, confine your proselytizing to those who want or require it. Thanks.

 

I am talking about a man who is obviously torn between doing what he feels is the "right" thing to do, and what his heart is telling him to do. He is being forced to choose between his family and a woman he loves. That is not an easy choice for a good man. If he were some selfish "cake-eater" who just likes having two women, then I would say her walking away and shutting the door until he has a signed decree in his hand was right. I just simply do not see him as such. Despite what other people think, I am of a mind that if a man struggles that mightily with the choice of family vs. woman he loves, it is because he is a good man, not a bad one. A "sinner" just looking to sin would have walked away from one or the other long ago, instead of being emotionally distraught in the tug of war his mind is suffering. After all, a piece on the side is easily replaced for any man, while a woman he truly loves and wishes to be with is not so easily dismissed. The fact that he struggles proves that he is a man with some morals, he is not willing to just up and abandon his family even when that means that he is denied being with the woman in his heart.

[Fallen Angel]

FA,

I've spent lots of time and have made many posts about my readings concerning split-selfers. I get it. I really do. The literature will tell you that it takes 2 years (minimum!) to resolve the split with therapy. As far as I can tell from the post, this guy isn't in therapy, and there's no guarantee that he'd resolve it that fast - or that it's even remotely worth the cost to tasha to dry his tears for that 2 years or more.

 

For me - after 4.5 years, it's not worth it. He ruined my sense of self-worth and usually made me feel second to his psychB xW. He lied and lied and lied some more to keep the door open with her while screwing me. And he WAS in therapy for almost 2 years. Yet, he's still not done. Not. Worth. It.

 

If Tasha's MM isn't willing to do what he needs to do without her there holding his hand, and runs back to his W, then it bespeaks how strong the pull to go home is. You don't want to live in the shadow of someone who is with you but some part of him wants to be at home with his xW....it's actually worse than being a straight-up OW. If he's going to run back, let him do it now, and do it fully rather than later after stringing you both along.

 

Tasha - I'm not necessarily advocating NC, but it ought to be very LC, and DO NOT sleep with him. Until he's completely sure he wants to be your boyfriend (and not someone else's H), don't give him boyfriend perks. It's not your job to "convince" him to be with you - if you try, you're going to feel like crap about yourself.

 

I completely understand that divorce is a loss...but I'd much rather see you comfort him through that REAL loss, than this imagined loss he has now while he hasn't even decided who he wants to be with. Comfort him AFTER he's made a concrete choice, not a moment before.

 

Let me start by saying that I am sorry that you are suffering. I wish you healing and love.

 

But my point is that it is not the xW that part of him wants to be with. It is the family comitments that he feels he has abandoned. If it were simply a matter of choosing between two women, then these men would not agaonize over their decisions. They would pick one or the other and be done. (And based on the material that i have read so far, it is most often the OW that they would chose.) But it is not as simple as that, it is the "family" and how they percieve "right and wrong" and a host of other issues.

 

You are right, they should be in counseling. And you are right that for some women they should not stay in a committed relationship with the man while he deals with the split-self. But for others, continued contact is considered helpful towards the healing of the split. In fact some ICs include the OW in some counseling sessions as she is the primary love relationship in the MMs life. And some ICs advocate that the affair relationship continue for the duration of IC unless and until the MM heals the split at which time the proper choice for him becomes obvious.

[Brokenlady]

 

But my point is that it is not the xW that part of him wants to be with. It is the family comitments that he feels he has abandoned. If it were simply a matter of choosing between two women, then these men would not agaonize over their decisions. They would pick one or the other and be done. (And based on the material that i have read so far, it is most often the OW that they would chose.) But it is not as simple as that, it is the "family" and how they percieve "right and wrong" and a host of other issues.

 

 

I don't disagree with you here, and I've thought long and hard on this point. The thing is though - that the end result is the same. Whatever the reason is he longs to be somewhere else, it feels awful for the fOW.

 

I don't think for a moment his xW is better than me, or even better for him than me, but I do think that he will always be drawn to what she represents for him because his split hasn't resolved, nor does he seem to have any interest in solving it as he dropped out of therapy. His IC did involve me in his therapy at times and we even saw a separate couples counselor. He just refused to listen to any of it. Everyone told him that he was making a bigger mess, but he didn't care because he was getting what he wanted.

 

To be fair, the more I read, the more I'm convinced I was dealing with someone who did a good job pretending to be split-self when what he actually was is a sociopath. He doesn't appear to have any genuine remorse (as shown by an appreciable change in behavior) for what he's done to any of us. And I think he covets his wife out of a narcissistic concern for his image, and me for much the same reason. He's considering a run for political office - get my drift about his personality?

Edited March 21, 2010 by Brokenlady

[Fallen Angel]

I don't disagree with you here, and I've thought long and hard on this point. The thing is though - that the end result is the same. Whatever the reason is he longs to be somewhere else, it feels awful for the fOW.

 

I don't think for a moment his xW is better than me, or even better for him than me, but I do think that he will always be drawn to what she represents for him because his split hasn't resolved, nor does he seem to have any interest in solving it as he dropped out of therapy. His IC did involve me in his therapy at times and we even saw a separate couples counselor. He just refused to listen to any of it. Everyone told him that he was making a bigger mess, but he didn't care because he was getting what he wanted.

 

To be fair, the more I read, the more I'm convinced I was dealing with someone who did a good job pretending to be split-self when what he actually was is a sociopath. He doesn't appear to have any genuine remorse (as shown by an appreciable change in behavior) for what he's done to any of us. And I think he covets his wife out of a narcissistic concern for his image, and me for much the same reason. He's considering a run for political office - get my drift about his personality?

 

I do understand what you mean, and it seems that in your case, you made the right decision to walk away. Not every affair is a split-self affair, and I think the remorse of which you speak is certainly a big factor into those that are true split-selves, and those who just appear to be.

 

I am just of a mind that if you are unsure, that you should err on the side of caution. That in my mind being what you think is the healthiest choice for yourself. If the relationship is damaging you, you should leave it, however, if you are still in love, and the relationship in what ever form it is in, is fulfilling to you, then you should keep an open mind and be willing to work on things, even if they take time to come to resolution.

 

You and I both know, that these things may on the surface appear very cookie cutter, in their sameness, but we also know that beneath the surface, they are very different indeed.

[califnan]

YOU are talking about men who have sinned. I was not granted the power of judgement from MY GOD. Perhaps YOUR GOD has offered that power to you. My God asks me not to judge others, and says that judgement is His Providence, mine is simply to love my neighbor. Having watched you pass out judgements upon others on this site, coupled with your quoting scripture when it satisfies your need to condemn others, I would suggest that your God is very different from Mine. So please do not preach at me, confine your proselytizing to those who want or require it. Thanks.

 

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Fallen Angel, It is our job to help others toward the light and hope and to a better life. It is your choice to be unrepentant - But others should not be encouraged to stay in the mire, and you are doing a disservice if you do encourage this.

 

Attaching ones self to a married person, can be the same as any thief - who thinks that he needs or loves more than the rightful owner..

[Fallen Angel]

YOU are talking about men who have sinned. I was not granted the power of judgement from MY GOD. Perhaps YOUR GOD has offered that power to you. My God asks me not to judge others, and says that judgement is His Providence, mine is simply to love my neighbor. Having watched you pass out judgements upon others on this site, coupled with your quoting scripture when it satisfies your need to condemn others, I would suggest that your God is very different from Mine. So please do not preach at me, confine your proselytizing to those who want or require it. Thanks.

 

-------------------

 

Fallen Angel, It is our job to help others toward the light and hope and to a better life. It is your choice to be unrepentant - But others should not be encouraged to stay in the mire, and you are doing a disservice if you do encourage this.

 

Attaching ones self to a married person, can be the same as any thief - who thinks that he needs or loves more than the rightful owner..

 

If you preach at me out of fear for my immortal soul, fear not, My God is a loving and forgiving God, who sees not just my every action, but every thought and intention in my heart as well. I am not walking a path which is dark, but a path filled with light and love.

 

Oddly enough I have stolen nothing, I accepted what was offered to me by someone exercising free will. Your flogging me with scripture and passing judgement on me does nothing to help your cause, it only serves to further show me that my acceptance of my neighbors and myself as flawed but worthy souls loved by My God, is much preferable and on the path of righteousness than your finger pointing and stone throwing. I suppose it was fortunate for the alduteress that she had Jesus by her side rather than you Nan.. else her fate may have been very different.

 

I personally find your incessant references to how God will judge me and others in relationships that you do not agree with, insulting and offensive. I say again, there is only one with the right to judge my soul, and to my knowledge that one is not you.

 

In the future, I would appreciate it if you kept His name and references to scripture out of conversations with, to or about me. Thank You.

[fooled once]

I am not suggesting that she move him in and set up housekeeping with him. I am suggesting that if he has been making moves towards showing her that she is the one he wants to be with, then she should reopen a line of communication with him. I can well imagine he would be confused and not know what to do at this point. Afterall, if I am reading this correctly, he left his wife and is trying to do the things that Op has said he needs to do, yet she is still keeping NC. What hope does that give him, what incentive is there for him to move forward to do what she requires of him, surely he is thinking that he will jump through her hoops only to find that she has moved on without him. If he was having trouble leaving the marriage because he is torn between his "family" (not specifically his wife) and the OP, then continued NC at this point will surely push him back to his family.

 

Seems counter-productive to me. Of course, i am veiwing this with an understanding of the split-self, which many here have not bothered to really learn about.

 

That's not really fair or accurate --- many of us don't believe in this "self split" idea --- for me, it is just an excuse for a person to leave another person hanging.

 

Life is full of decisions every day -- it is called taking charge and making a decision. Self split to ME is just another excuse for being a coward and not making a decision.