"Karma" and Choice

[OWoman]

I can feel another spin-off coming on...

 

Reading a number of the threads on here, and then having a made an interesting discovery earlier, a question has popped into my mind which I'd like to hear people's views on.

 

Earlier, I was poking around in the far, dark recesses of the loft, looking for something, when I found an old battered box containing a file. I hauled it downstairs to see if it contained anything important, or just more of her leftover junk that needed trashing, and had to catch my eyeballs as they dropped out of my skull.

 

The file contained a series of letters, written between my H, his xW, and her then-H. He was a kid, newly arrived in a university town, and she had been down for the weekend, screwed him, and returned to her H. She wrote him a series of fairly typical teenage love letters, all hot sweaty can't-wait-to-see-you-agains and little hearts (she was in her late 20s), and he'd responded in typical adolescent male fashion describing sexual fantasies he'd like to play out with her... until several letters later, when she admitted that, yes, the man who had arrived at his door one day and threatened him was her H, and yes, they were still M (not S) and yes, she had lied to her H about where she was going and what she was doing there.... but it was because she was so very confused, because she loved him (my now-H) and couldn't bear to hurt her H... and she'd really really think hard about MC, but she was just so confused, so broken, she needed him (my H). Every cliche in the CS book was in there - it was quite a read!

 

There was a long section on how awful she was - fat, old (late 20s - a good deal older than my H), broken, confused, deceitful, lying, dishonest, hateful, etc - the odd thing being, all of it was perfectly true, although designed to elicit (as it so successfully did) the Knight In Shining Armour response rather than to make someone think they're wasting their time. Anyway, long story short, there were a couple more letters between my H and hers, where my H apologised and offered to back off, but her H basically said, take her - it was clear from his handwriting over the few successive letters that his mental health was really taking strain... followed by a flood of increasingly disturbed (and disturbing) letters from her indicating a clear breakdown, punctuated with cards from my H with sweet little poems saying not very much... and then silence. I assume that was when she moved down and joined him.

 

(Aside from the really scary bit that implied that both of them kept all of that correspondence, and someone filed it in order for posterity, it was quite an interesting find!)

 

So, given all the discussions on here in several threads which have prompted me to wonder how past experience impacts choices we make in the present, I'm keen to hear people's views on:

 

* if you've been on more than one side of the triangle (BS, WS, OP), do you feel that your experience in the other, earlier role impacted in any way on your having become one of the other roles later on?

 

* if so, would you say that that was through (your own bad) choice, or through "karma", or purely by chance?

 

* has it shaped the way you view your later role, having the earlier experience of a different role?

 

And for others, who've not had such experience previously (and for those who have, too )

 

* Do you think your experience, this time around of this role, will impact on your likelihood to play one of the other roles in the future?

 

* if so, through choice, "karma" or pure chance?

 

 

[For the purists, I'm using "karma" in the vernacular sense, rather than in its religious meaning, hence the scare quotes.]

[jennie-jennie]

I can draw from my experience as a BS and a WS to understand what other people are going through, but I can't say that it has had any impact on my situation today. The reason being that my past experiences were of relationships of short term duration only wheras the relationship I am in now is long term. To me that makes the situations too vastly different. The level of emotional involvement is too vastly different.

 

I will be extremely wary not to become the OW in the future, since I now have learnt that a man can stay with one woman while loving another. I did not realize that could be the case earlier. Naive, yes.

Edited February 16, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[MizFit]

* if you've been on more than one side of the triangle (BS, WS, OP), do you feel that your experience in the other, earlier role impacted in any way on your having become one of the other roles later on?

 

* if so, would you say that that was through (your own bad) choice, or through "karma", or purely by chance?

 

* has it shaped the way you view your later role, having the earlier experience of a different role?

 

And for others, who've not had such experience previously (and for those who have, too )

 

* Do you think your experience, this time around of this role, will impact on your likelihood to play one of the other roles in the future?

 

* if so, through choice, "karma" or pure chance?

 

Wow...what a great post and how strange it must have been to read those letters and think of your H as he was then...on the road to becoming the man you love now.

 

Wow...

 

As for my response...

 

I was a BS in my early 20s...I found out and ended the marriage immediately. I know there are things I did to leave the marriage vulnerable and would dearly love to have had the opportunity to know then what I know now.

 

I'm an OW in my late 40s...what happened as the BS and an adultering father always made me leary of MM, but then I met the one I entered into a relationship with.

 

I don't know as this is the angle you're looking for, but in one way the early experience did keep me from entering lightly into any situation with any MM, but it wouldn't have stopped me if the feelings were there...as has now happened.

 

As for the future...I still would not tolerate a partner that cheated on me and I wouldn't be involved with another MM unless there were some incredible feelings, as there are with mine now.

 

Karma...I'm not convinced it's real. I know a boatload of people who have been anything but good through their lives and they're happy as Larry. I've seen people who have lived their lives the right way lose everything.

[Fallen Angel]

* if you've been on more than one side of the triangle (BS, WS, OP), do you feel that your experience in the other, earlier role impacted in any way on your having become one of the other roles later on?

 

I spent fifteen years as a BW before I became an OW. I don't know that my experiences as a BW have impacted my choices, but my experience as an OW have changed the way I view one particular OW of my ex-H. I am able to see now, that she was just a woman following her heart, instead of her head, and it has allowed me the ability to forgive her.

 

* if so, would you say that that was through (your own bad) choice, or through "karma", or purely by chance?

 

I did not choose either of my roles. Not BW and not OW. Both were put upon me by men willing to decieve me because of their "love" for me.

 

* has it shaped the way you view your later role, having the earlier experience of a different role?

 

And for others, who've not had such experience previously (and for those who have, too )

 

* Do you think your experience, this time around of this role, will impact on your likelihood to play one of the other roles in the future?

 

Because of my experiences, I can honestly say that I would never choose to go into any side of the triangle. I didn't choose it either time, though I now make the choice to stay in it. But I would never go into it with all the facts on the table... *shrug*

 

* if so, through choice, "karma" or pure chance?

 

 

[For the purists, I'm using "karma" in the vernacular sense, rather than in its religious meaning, hence the scare quotes.]

 

Like I said, being on ANY side of the triangle was never a choice i made, but I think my choice to stay with My MM is most impacted, not by my experiences as a BW, but by my experiences growing up with my mother as an OW. She and her MM were very much in love (I am very in love with My MM and believe him when he tells me he is very much in love with me) and she stuck it out until his children were grown and ended up married for now more than 20 years to the only man she really ever loved. I think that more than anything is why I am willing to stick it out a little bit longer.. I have seen first hand that love sometimes does conquer all.

[crazycatlady]

I am thinking about this. I know the OW in our triangle has had some bad things happen to her lately, and my H just went through a tramatic weekend car wise (its his baby) where as some things are totally going my way for a change.

 

But at the same time when this first happened and I was feeling very vulnerable, sad, and hurt, I made a post about Karma being a b****, the OW posted and asked what I had done to deserve whatever it was that was going on, which did make me think some about what was going on, and look deeper at it.

 

I'm not sure if I believe in Karma or not, it is appealing sometimes, but in the end, I'm a kind soul who wishes no harm on anyone outside of the heat of the moment.

 

CCL

[jwi71]

* if you've been on more than one side of the triangle (BS, WS, OP), do you feel that your experience in the other, earlier role impacted in any way on your having become one of the other roles later on?

 

* if so, would you say that that was through (your own bad) choice, or through "karma", or purely by chance?

 

* has it shaped the way you view your later role, having the earlier experience of a different role?

 

Those don't apply to me.

* Do you think your experience, this time around of this role, will impact on your likelihood to play one of the other roles in the future?

No, it won't. I will NOT knowingly be a part of this again. And, should I find out that my GF is married or has a BF...she's gone. And no, I don't suspect that she is either.

* if so, through choice, "karma" or pure chance?

Its choice. All of life is choice. I cannot recall anyone here being FORCED into an A.

 

 

And, why was the box so eye-opening Owoman?

[pureinheart]

I didn't realise there were different variations to Karma, although here is a definition that I found:

 

 

Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म kárma [sIZE=2]([/sIZE][sIZE=2]help[/sIZE][sIZE=2]·[/sIZE][sIZE=2]info[/sIZE][sIZE=2])[/sIZE], kárman- "act, action, performance"[1]; Pali: kamma) in Indian religions is the concept of "action" or "deed", understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect (i.e., the cycle called saṃsāra) originating in ancient India and treated in Hindu, Jain, Sikh and Buddhist philosophies.[2]

'Karma' is an Eastern religious concept in contradistinction to 'faith' espoused by Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), which view all human dramas as the will of God as opposed to present - and past - life actions. In theistic schools of Hinduism, humans have free will to choose good or evil and suffer the consequences, which require the will of God to implement karma's consequences, unlike Buddhism or Jainism which do not accord any role to a supreme God or gods. In Eastern beliefs, the karmic effects of all deeds are viewed as actively shaping past, present, and future experiences. The results or 'fruits' of actions are called karma-phala.[3

 

 

Anyway, Karma to me is what comes around goes around. I have no wish to offend or disrespect anyone if my interpretation is wrong....with that said, I have been through much hardship, not as much as some and more than others...experience tells me that there is never a need to wish another person harm as usually if they are messing with others they usually will see a not so good end to it.

 

I used to feel so slighted and wanted revenge so bad, although held back only to see the person who harmed me in deep mess. I got no satisfaction and was grieved. Right now have been dealing with so many things it is pathetic, yet it is wonderful that I have the freedom to work the emotional stuff out here on LS.

 

OWoman, this is a great Thread BTW...I am exporing the choice issues in my life....did I choose to be molested at 8 yrs of age, which in fact distorted my view of many things. Do I choose to change....yes

 

Are my opinions slighted and distorted due to past abuse which I don't believe I chose? Yes

 

Am I trying to change this? Yes

 

NID brought up in a reply (I think to me) that we have a filter...I believe her to be right about that in my case, and I thank her for that statement.

 

I know this isn't exactly on topic, although thanks as this really helped me.

[ladydesigner]

* if you've been on more than one side of the triangle (BS, WS, OP), do you feel that your experience in the other, earlier role impacted in any way on your having become one of the other roles later on?

I am the BS and WS and yes having been a BS first directlty led to me becoming a WS. I had a revenge affair and ended up falling in love with XOM.

 

* if so, would you say that that was through (your own bad) choice, or through "karma", or purely by chance?

It was PURELY my own bad choice

* has it shaped the way you view your later role, having the earlier experience of a different role?

Yes it does shape it. I now understand how some people can enter A's and compartmentalize (sp?) all those emotions.

 

And for others, who've not had such experience previously (and for those who have, too )

 

* Do you think your experience, this time around of this role, will impact on your likelihood to play one of the other roles in the future?

The only other role I am playing in the future is to be faithful or divorced I do not see it any other way.

 

* if so, through choice, "karma" or pure chance?

This new role will be by choice.

[pureinheart]

I am thinking about this. I know the OW in our triangle has had some bad things happen to her lately, and my H just went through a tramatic weekend car wise (its his baby) where as some things are totally going my way for a change.

 

But at the same time when this first happened and I was feeling very vulnerable, sad, and hurt, I made a post about Karma being a b****, the OW posted and asked what I had done to deserve whatever it was that was going on, which did make me think some about what was going on, and look deeper at it.

 

I'm not sure if I believe in Karma or not, it is appealing sometimes, but in the end, I'm a kind soul who wishes no harm on anyone outside of the heat of the moment.

 

CCL

 

(in bold) Yes you are....

 

This is how I am dealt with...example: I will talk sh*t, in essence thinking I'm all that right...well I will get taken into that situation (in my belief system God will allow me to be tempted in the thing I am being selfrighteous about), well me and temptation, let's just say I can be an easy target.

 

Ok, I go through that thing and realise, wow, this sucks and I gain understanding and am less selfrighteous.

 

People like you and others aren't as hard headed and selfrighteous, so therefore do not have to go through as much....although there is a good side to my situations even though I have had to learn very hard lessons...

 

Flip side says thank you, in a sence to those that distorted my thinking at an early age as now I can rise up, meaning (in my belief system) what the enemy meant for my evil, God turned it to my good...I can use this analogy in everything bad that has happened, turning all things into a possitive...cool huh!

[TaraMaiden]

[For the purists, I'm using "karma" in the vernacular sense, rather than in its religious meaning, hence the scare quotes.]

 

I appreciate the distinction. it saves me a w-h-o-l-e lot of typing!

 

Karma...I'm not convinced it's real. I know a boatload of people who have been anything but good through their lives and they're happy as Larry. I've seen people who have lived their lives the right way lose everything.

That's because you're viewing karma - as OWoman so specifically states, "in the vernacular".....

 

]I'm not sure if I believe in Karma or not' date=' it is appealing sometimes, but in the end, I'm a kind soul who wishes no harm on anyone outside of the heat of the moment.[/i'] CCL

It's precisely "the heat of the Moment" that matters most.....

 

 

 

.....In Eastern beliefs, the karmic effects of all deeds are viewed as actively shaping past, present, and future experiences. The results or 'fruits' of actions are called karma-phala.

 

Anyway, Karma to me is what comes around goes around. I have no wish to offend or disrespect anyone if my interpretation is wrong....

 

Which it is, a bit. And I for one am not offended.

 

I have got to STOP The word 'Karma' being such a flappin' flag to me, on this forum....

Folks is gonna start baiting me soon....!

 

Thanks for reading!

[pureinheart]

Actually, Tara, you were the one I referring to, and anyone, who might be offended, because I remembered there is a different meaning/faith concerning it....no bad, nothing turning out bad due to Karma. I think I got that right.

 

I sincerely apologize as I saw OWoman say not in the religious sense...

 

(((((((Tara))))))

[scorpmale003]

i can not really say what karma is R wise...besides that karma is simple maths....

how much and where you invest is directly proportional to the what you get out of it...

 

my mind fked prj manager is calling me now(3:30 am)...this is what karma is

Edited February 16, 2010 by scorpmale003

[anne1707]

* if you've been on more than one side of the triangle (BS, WS, OP), do you feel that your experience in the other, earlier role impacted in any way on your having become one of the other roles later on?

 

I was a BS before WS. Whilst I did not think being a BS had an impact on me becoming a WS, my H did. In MC, he suggested that my A might have been some kind of revenge/seeking balance. As we went through MC, I realised that I had not dealt with my feelings regarding his affair as much as I thought so maybe.....

 

* if so, would you say that that was through (your own bad) choice, or through "karma", or purely by chance?

 

I don't like referring to Karma because of the respect I have for Tara and others who have a far greater understanding of this belief than I do (whilst recognising that OW is trying to keep this away from spiritual beliefs). I prefer to state it as "what goes around, comes around". But as it is, no, all my own choice. Not chance.

 

* has it shaped the way you view your later role, having the earlier experience of a different role?

 

This is one of the things that really got to me. I knew how much it hurt to be a BS, yet I did it to my H. Now I have to deal with that.

[Got it]

I have only truly been an OW though I guess I did have a boyfriend cheat on me so gave me some understanding of being a BS.

 

I do not believe in karma. Life is random events and choices. I do not believe good or bad things just happen to you based on some larger scale of justice. I do believe we lay the foundation that causes a ripple effect of future events. But that is it. I own every decision I have made including the beginning, middle, and end of my affair.

 

I think as long as you learn from your mistakes, acknowledge the lessons in front of you, and make decisions that you don't regret and it is a pretty satisfying life.

[crazycatlady]

Pure - I'm nice now, but should have known me as a young adult, I was a horrible woman then. Simply horrid. I behaved poorly towards people who loved me and treated them badly. I regret it now, but even so I wouldnt go back and change it because it all makes me who I am at this moment, and hey, I like this me. And I'm extremely head headed, and very strong willed. But I'm a libra, I seek both sides, and weight then equally once my hot headed nature has a chance to calm down. I didn't post here the first month after i found out. You would have seen a whole different side of me then

 

Tara - I try not to react to the heat of the moment. I try very hard to take time to calm down, think things through, and then react to a sitution. Which as a hot tempered red head, is an amazing growing up that Ive done. I was a hot headed child, quick to toss the first punch, usually in defense of others though because I've always been a bleeding heart, a passionate teenager and young adult (aka angsty and melodramatic lol), I'm still hot headed and passionate, but I try to keep it tempured with a little wisdom and self-control.

 

And I meant karma in the how you treat others will come back on you good or bad.

 

CCL

[foreal]

 

to lighten things up.....

Edited February 17, 2010 by foreal

[NoIDidn't]

I don't think my having been the OW meant that I would one day be a BW. I don't think they are linked at all. In one, I had a choice, in the other, I didn't. And should I ever (I certainly don't plan to) become an OW, I will keep it real with myself and know that I am doing it because I want to, not because of what my H once did.

[White Flower]

 

So, given all the discussions on here in several threads which have prompted me to wonder how past experience impacts choices we make in the present, I'm keen to hear people's views on:

 

* if you've been on more than one side of the triangle (BS, WS, OP), do you feel that your experience in the other, earlier role impacted in any way on your having become one of the other roles later on?

 

* if so, would you say that that was through (your own bad) choice, or through "karma", or purely by chance?

 

* has it shaped the way you view your later role, having the earlier experience of a different role?

 

And for others, who've not had such experience previously (and for those who have, too )

 

* Do you think your experience, this time around of this role, will impact on your likelihood to play one of the other roles in the future?

 

* if so, through choice, "karma" or pure chance?

 

 

[For the purists, I'm using "karma" in the vernacular sense, rather than in its religious meaning, hence the scare quotes.]

Having read Journey of Souls, I find this thread very interesting.

 

The book by Dr. Michael Newton takes karma very seriously. If I am cheating in this lifetime chances are that I may be cheated on in the next life. All painful yet valuable experiences which make my soul a deeper and enriched one. Having understood and accepted that, I do feel that I could play any of all the characters described above.

 

I wouldn't say it was due to a bad choice in a previous life, but I would say it was due to a different choice. If I already had experience in one lifetime, why would I repeat it in another? Lessons already learned are boring so let's try a new one. Cheated on last time, so let's cheat this time round. Now we have experienced all sides of the spectrum (in the third life I am the child of cheating parents and in the fourth I am the servant watching the family suffer, and so on).

 

Having wondered how karma plays out literally calls for question making decisions for THIS lifetime. Would I do it again? No, BTDT.

 

I have been cheated on and I did become the cheater later on. It was hard to do since I knew how painful it was. Most would say, 'how could you do that knowing how painful it is' while others would say, 'he deserved every ounce of revenge you took out on him with your cheating'. In all actuality, there was no satisfaction in getting revenge. My path with MM felt like it was a path of its own, not any sense of revenge at all. In my mind, my M was over and I was just waiting for my H to move out. Yet, I was technically cheating because the D was not final even if we were no longer sleeping together or really a couple. Yet, there was an inner struggle.

 

I would say my R now with MM was by all three--choice, karma, and chance. (Isn't karma just chance masked as fate? Maybe that is a whole other discussion). The earlier role as BS surely led me to the latter role. In some ways, I felt it was vindication while in other ways I felt it was meant to be.

 

As difficult a road it has been, I do not regret any of it. Would I suggest someone become an OW while still married? No, it is definitely a hard road. Would I change my experience if I had to do it over again? No, not at all.

 

My R with MM was just as 'meant to be' as my M was. Nobody can convince me differently.

[White Flower]

I don't think my having been the OW meant that I would one day be a BW. I don't think they are linked at all. In one' date=' I had a choice, in the other, I didn't. And should I ever (I certainly don't plan to) become an OW, I will keep it real with myself and know that I am doing it because I want to, not because of what my H once did.[/quote']

We always have choices. You didn't have to stay in the role of BW. I know things have mended now, but once you learned about the situation you had control over which way it went, right? You didn't put up with it and it didn't last, right? You may have not had a choice in the beginning, but you played the cards you were dealt and you won in the end. I'm sure you are a better person for all of it.

[NoIDidn't]

We always have choices. You didn't have to stay in the role of BW. I know things have mended now, but once you learned about the situation you had control over which way it went, right? You didn't put up with it and it didn't last, right? You may have not had a choice in the beginning, but you played the cards you were dealt and you won in the end. I'm sure you are a better person for all of it.

 

I appreciate the compliment about my resilience, WF.

 

I understand what you are saying about "staying in the role of BW", but once it happens there is no such thing as "staying" in that role when you had no choice of how you got there. That's what I meant by not having a choice.

[pureinheart]

i can not really say what karma is R wise...besides that karma is simple maths....

how much and where you invest is directly proportional to the what you get out of it...

 

my mind fked prj manager is calling me now(3:30 am)...this is what karma is

 

Scorp...you are the best!!!!! This totally cracked me up....

[pureinheart]

Pure - I'm nice now, but should have known me as a young adult, I was a horrible woman then. Simply horrid. I behaved poorly towards people who loved me and treated them badly. I regret it now, but even so I wouldnt go back and change it because it all makes me who I am at this moment, and hey, I like this me. And I'm extremely head headed, and very strong willed. But I'm a libra, I seek both sides, and weight then equally once my hot headed nature has a chance to calm down. I didn't post here the first month after i found out. You would have seen a whole different side of me then

 

Tara - I try not to react to the heat of the moment. I try very hard to take time to calm down, think things through, and then react to a sitution. Which as a hot tempered red head, is an amazing growing up that Ive done. I was a hot headed child, quick to toss the first punch, usually in defense of others though because I've always been a bleeding heart, a passionate teenager and young adult (aka angsty and melodramatic lol), I'm still hot headed and passionate, but I try to keep it tempured with a little wisdom and self-control.

 

And I meant karma in the how you treat others will come back on you good or bad.

 

CCL

 

 

Hey, I hear you...is it age for me???? My friend from my teenage years reminded me of some of the things I did...OMG, I felt sooooo bad.

[pureinheart]

 

to lighten things up.....

 

This was good!!!!! Thanks!

[TaraMaiden]

This isn't my thread, and I'm not going to threadjack.

 

I'm making final comment here:

I am humbled by the kindness and respect from everyone regarding my personal "purist" knowledge or understanding of Karma, vs the vernacular sense in which it's meant here.

You're all very generous to appreciate that distinction, and I'm grateful to even have had my viewpoint considered, so thoughtfully.

 

Ok, I'm done here....

 

Thank you all.

[skylarblue]

I’ve been the WP and the OW. I don’t think one had any influence in the type of Rs I chose to have. Whatever position I was in, cheater or OP/OW, was by choice. I believe the vast majority of what people (adults) experience (good and bad) is through choice. IMO, there’s no such thing as karma, and “chance” only makes things happen in a particular way without any apparent cause. It doesn’t carry over to a person’s use of that chance to make certain choices. I think my experience of being the OW currently will only impact not wanting to be the OW in the future.