They don't know I know

[crazycatlady]

I have tried writing this so many times and keep changing my mind on what I want to say. I know this probably belongs over in infidelity, but honestly the bitterness there is not what I want to hear.

 

I am not the OW. I am the BW. They do not know I know, I am not sure they even suspect I know. I'm not known for my restraint when something is bothering me. But I've been very restrained about reacting on the information. First I got it by snooping - and really folks, watch the texting, both to the person and to other people, especially when you can check online who the person is texting with if not the actual text themselves. Anyway, I'm not proud that I snooped. But I snooped because I KNEW something was very wrong in my M and with H.

 

One thing this has done is made me realize that I haven't been giving him what he needs both emotionally and sexually. I allowed stress and life and my own emotional issues to come between us. He was going through an extremely rough time and I was not helping. Now granted he should have come to me, but he didn't, but that's also the past and can't be change, all I can do is own up to my own mistakes.

 

He's my soulmate, he will have to leave me, I can't leave him. Like many of your OW and the reason why you take second best. This is also why I don't want to post on infidelity forum, because that's going to be ridiculed. I have self respect, really I do. And he does treat me well for the most part - hey everyone has their flaws. And I think his hiding the affair the way he has shows he loves me.

 

I also believe you can love more then one person. And being bisexual myself, we have sometimes brought in other women into our relationship. However this time, this woman can't be brought in. Any other person and I would understand that not everything he needs can be given by me, I'm selfish in my own way. But this woman....its my sister. So its really creepy sharing him with her.

 

But if I would be willing to do the same with another woman, why does this bother me? I know some of it has to do with the secrecy and the lying. I want that part to stop. And I want it to be open and out so I'm not feeling like I have to snoop to find out what the heck is going on. And I feel I do have the right to know. I also feel that if he wants her more then me, he should tell me. As much as it would kill me, and it would kill me, I'll not become psyco woman over this. but i don't want to force him to make a choice between us. I just feel that the worse part of this is the secrecy and the lying.

 

I just don't know how to get it out in the open. I can't explain how much it bothers me that I snooped his phone and that I still am doing it. Even though they usually go a month between contact - unless its done by work email which is possible, but it can't be much due to their very different scheduals. And I know they haven't seen each other since July thanks to the distance between us and her.

 

This is a very crazy situation. I'm over the extreme hurt I felt when I first found out. That is pain I never want again, it was physical it hurt so much, and it hurt worse then the natural childbirth. It was horrible. The lying killed me but I also set things up so he had to lie about it, where as I think if I had handled things differently a year ago, it wouldn't have come to that.

 

Anyway, any constructive advice would be appreciated. I think love is felt all the way around by everyone in this situation in some form or another. And I think there is guilt and pain on their part, and hurt and pain plus a little guilt for snooping on mine. And while I don't know if the pain can ever be totally eliminated, or that the ultimate pain of a seperation between H and I won't happen (ultimate pain for me at least, and a lot of pain for him), I think having it out and in the open is the better option.

 

CCL

forgive the lenght, its a rather complicated situation and I could have gone on even more.

[NoIDidn't]

Your own sister?!

 

I can understand sitting on the information for a bit, but don't feel guilty about snooping. Obviously they don't feel guilty about lying to you and sneaking around under your nose. You did what you had to do.

 

Do you have a family member you can tell while you decide how to handle this? A family member or a counsellor as this has the potential to not only end your marriage but also estrange you and/or your sister from the rest of your family once the truth comes out.

 

This has got to be hard. I can imagine the fact that you are otherwise open in your marriage with him and other women, this probably feels like a huge and insurmountable betrayal. It would be creepy to share your sister with him. That is wrong on so many levels.

 

I'm so sorry.

[jennie-jennie]

I just want to send you my sympathy and commend you for telling your story so bravely. I understand your situation must be very difficult. Are you thinking of keeping your knowledge a secret and just continuing on or are you contemplating how to bring it up with them? I too (even though I am an OW) can see nothing wrong in you snooping to find out the truth.

 

Hugs,

Jennie

[jwi71]

Presuming this is true...

 

You can kill the A the same way you kill ANY A...drag it out into the light. That means informing the WORLD of what they are doing. And be prepared to present your proof as well.

 

If you aren't willing to do that then you need to develop some more coping skills.

[crazycatlady]

Yes this is real. There is no one in the family I could talk to about this. The one person I would talk to is the person involved.

 

Right now I'm keeping it a secret that I know. I know I will not be dragging it into the light for all to see, though most of my good friends do know and have seen me through the worst of the pain I endured in the beginning.

 

And I think they do feel guilty. I know its always assumed that those cheating couldn't possibly feel guilty or else they would never do it. But humans are flawed, we might all want to be better then we are, but we all are flawed.

 

In some ways I am grateful for this. It brought up to me how important it is to daily reaffirm my marriage, to make sure he never feels I take him for granted and/or reguard him as simply a paycheck - a source of deep pain for him in the past due to how he felt I treated him. And yes he is selfish, which I'll be honest, is part of the attraction for me. He's not totally selfish, and his selfishness rubs off on me in ways that is hard to discribe, but he makes me a better person. Even with what has happened. I'm also domineering and will run over a less confident man, and I'll take all day from a less selfish man. I'm just as flawed in my own way as he is in his.

 

Coping skills, well I either need to bring it up so we can all talk about it, and which one do I bring it up to? I can't do it to both at the same time. Or I need to totally let it go, I can't keep snooping about this. Because I can't deal with my guilt on snooping. You can say I can snoop all you want, but to me its a violation. And two wrongs never are right.

 

And to top it off, I'm going on a girls weekend cruise with the sister at the end of Feb. Thinking about maybe talking to her about it then but again unsure. I'm not sure if I should bring it up at all to either.

 

OW, would you want the BW approaching you about this? My reasoning to do so wouldn't be to say "you must never talk to him again" or anything like that. Its just to get it out in the open so we can all be honest and stop the lying and the snooping and the sneaking.

 

CCL

[jwi71]

Well, then I think this should be VERY easy.

 

Simply say:

 

"Sis, you can keep being with my H, I'm ok with it. I'm NOT ok with the lying you did...its very disrespectful of and to ME. If you wanted my H, you simply could have asked...I would have let you. My dear H, same thing really. You can continue to have realtions with us both. I am very upset and hurt you weren't open and honest to begin with. Because of this, let's go see an MC to improve our communication issues and maybe we can learn to meet each others needs better.

 

I have a small confession as well. I snooped and violated your privacy - that's how I caught you. Please forgive me."

 

Words to that affect.

 

It seems you are more bothered by the lying than the actual relationship and I think that is a good non-threatening way to get this into the light. Because it appears you will allow this R...no need to blow it up in the open. Just set some ground rules as you have in the past and try MC to form a better union.

 

I would address them both at the same time.

Good luck...

[fooled once]

So you are okay if they continue to see each other, love each other and have sex, as long as he tells you ahead of time?

 

And it is your fault that he and your sister decided to hook up and fall in love?

 

And you believe this????

 

It isn't your fault he chose to NOT communicate to you any issue he had with you. Your sister is a skank to go behind your back and sleep with your husband.

 

But since you are hell bent on making this all your fault, just keep quiet and they will keep on with their relationship. Maybe one day soon, he will let you know he prefers your sister and he will leave you.

 

And then one day, you will wake up and realize what a coward he is, what a betraying sister you have and that THEIR cheating isn't your fault.

[LakesideDream]

CatLady... you don't seem crazy to me, just a sad woman hiding behind a screen of rationality.

 

I don't blame you for being sad, or dealing with your saddness however you must. Those are choices you make. While not unique, your situation is unusual. I think that talking to your sister in February is a good thing. After all she will always be your sister. Spouses unfortunately are not very permanent.

 

Obviously you are a brave woman. Don't be a martyr. I understand loving a BS. I am not as brave as you because I could not deal with the situation as dispassionately as you see to have. If you cannot imagine yourself living with the status quo, don't waste time and emotion trying to adapt. Just bring it into the open yourself. Or, as I said, fake it until you can talk to your sister.

 

And..... you can live, and even prosper without your "soul mate"... this I know from experiance that spans four decades. It's not much fun though.

[White Flower]

I have tried writing this so many times and keep changing my mind on what I want to say. I know this probably belongs over in infidelity, but honestly the bitterness there is not what I want to hear.

 

You have every right to snoop. He promised to love, honor, and cherish and he has not honored you. If you had suspicions and he wasn't going to tell you then you had no other alternative.

 

I'm so sorry that you have been betrayed by your H AND your sister. I'm sorry your only confidante is involved in this A.

 

If it were me, I would admit I snooped (and I wouldn't be sorry about it) because when you love someone you want to know everything about them. That is what you did. I think once you get over the snooping part (feeling guilty about it) you can move forward with discussions with them both.

 

Of course you can't have ok feelings about a menage-a-toi with them because that would be incestuous; nobody could blame you.

 

And I'm glad you decided to post your story over here. Smart move if you ask me.

 

Best of luck.

[crazycatlady]

Thanks for everyone's opinions, and there is some good advice given. I can't confront both of them at once due to the distance between us and her. Otherwise that probably would be the best way.

 

I've worked hard to forgive both them and myselves, and most of the time I've managed it, and some of the times I've not. But the times not is when I find myself snooping, which makes me feel bad and I think having it out in the open, would allow me to deal better with it.

 

Of course because of the distance it could basically be over, and have been a brief intense emotional and physical affair and by bringing it up cause more problems then there would be if I just keep quiet.

 

And I don't think this will happen again with anyone else for several reasons, one any other woman and he would tell me about her in the very least. So really the only person this could happen with is her and only her.

 

And yes I can live without him, and most definately prosper, but a part of me would be missing.

 

And I'm not saying this is all my fault fooled once. But unlike a lot of BS i see all over the place, I acknowledge that my actions and behaviors have a direct relation to what happened. And this has made me a stronger person, a wiser person, and I think in the end after some work, will make my marriage a stronger marriage. Because true communication is always the key.

 

CCL

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

Oh my goodness, my heart is breaking for you. I cannot imagine being betrayed by my own sister. I have no words of wisdom, and I am an OW, so my perspective would obviously not be the right one for you. I can understand someone being your soul mate and being terrified and pained to think about being without that person in your life. Yes we CAN live without them and be fine, but finding the strength to do that is another issue entirely. I agree that you should confront at least him. If it is over like you suspect, it will at least clear the air for you. If he wanted to be with her, I would think he would have left by now, and he hasn't. I do agree with you in your thinking that people can love more than one person, and if you are ok with keeping this to yourself, that's for you. Gosh, I just am at a loss of words for you. I hope you can find some peace and resolution in your own heart.

[doushenka]

I feel terribly for you, CCL. I'm impressed that you're open to an open marriage, but understand that sharing one's husband with one's sister is incredibly squicky. Not an option.

 

Good open relationships (from swinging to full-on polyfidelity) do not begin in secrets and lies. Couples talk first, if they wish to open up, and THEN action is taken. Your husband betrayed your trust, and you have every right to be upset.

 

If your husband cares at all for the relationship you have with your sister, he will leave her when confronted; that's a bond no man ought to break, nor strive to break, and he has put serious pressure upon it. By "confront", I don't mean in anger; try to stay calm when you talk to him. Much easier to hear the words of a calm person than a hysterical one, you know? But don't let it fester. Let him know that you know he either has or had something going with your sister, and how that relationship has affected your feelings.

 

I send you hope and love. Even I feel sick in the pit of my stomach, and it's not my man or my sister! Please keep us updated, okay?

[Fallen Angel]

HMMM.. if you weren't beating yourself up so much about the 'snooping' already, i would suggest a bit of sneakiness..

 

I would have suggested.. call your sister, tell her that you suspect your husband is having an affair, cry if you feel like crying, be angry if you feel like being angry, say whatever you are FEELING and would want to say if it were anyone else but your sister, just let it all out.. but never tell her that you suspect SHE is the one he is having the affair with.

 

Not only will it allow your sister to see exactly how this affair is hurting you, but it will likely end the affair as they will both know that you are seeing signs of it, and they will not want to be 'caught red handed'.

 

But, if you can not even allow yourself to be okay with looking at his phone (a bill I am sure you pay jointly and therefore you have every right to know what it is being used for) then I doubt you would be able to 'lie by ommission' to your sister. *shrug* but that is still what I would do....

[Brightmoon]

HMMM.. if you weren't beating yourself up so much about the 'snooping' already, i would suggest a bit of sneakiness..

 

I would have suggested.. call your sister, tell her that you suspect your husband is having an affair, cry if you feel like crying, be angry if you feel like being angry, say whatever you are FEELING and would want to say if it were anyone else but your sister, just let it all out.. but never tell her that you suspect SHE is the one he is having the affair with.

 

Not only will it allow your sister to see exactly how this affair is hurting you, but it will likely end the affair as they will both know that you are seeing signs of it, and they will not want to be 'caught red handed'.

 

But, if you can not even allow yourself to be okay with looking at his phone (a bill I am sure you pay jointly and therefore you have every right to know what it is being used for) then I doubt you would be able to 'lie by ommission' to your sister. *shrug* but that is still what I would do....

 

Brill idea.

 

I am so sorry you are going through this CCL

((((hugs))))

[White Flower]

Oh my goodness, my heart is breaking for you. I cannot imagine being betrayed by my own sister. I have no words of wisdom, and I am an OW, so my perspective would obviously not be the right one for you. I can understand someone being your soul mate and being terrified and pained to think about being without that person in your life. Yes we CAN live without them and be fine, but finding the strength to do that is another issue entirely. I agree that you should confront at least him. If it is over like you suspect, it will at least clear the air for you. If he wanted to be with her, I would think he would have left by now, and he hasn't. I do agree with you in your thinking that people can love more than one person, and if you are ok with keeping this to yourself, that's for you. Gosh, I just am at a loss of words for you. I hope you can find some peace and resolution in your own heart.

Sometimes it is exactly the opinion and advice of the OW in this situation. I've had quite a few ask me in PMs what I think. Sometimes we have the answers but each case is different.

[White Flower]

I've worked hard to forgive both them and myselves, and most of the time I've managed it, and some of the times I've not. But the times not is when I find myself snooping, which makes me feel bad and I think having it out in the open, would allow me to deal better with it.

 

Because true communication is always the key.

 

CCL

Look, I snooped on my MM. I figure if you're sleeping with me and I feel you are hiding something from me then I have every right to snoop. Your body touches mine, I get to know what you're up to. It doesn't matter if we're M.

 

Don't feel guilty!

[crazycatlady]

I have enjoyed reading everyones responses, though a few have reinforced me decision to post here and not on the infidelity board .

 

And I did want the OW advice here, though it was more interesting to read the after the affair thread for other opinions on it.

 

I do appreciate the responses I have received from everyone. I still haven't decided what I'm going to do, but I'm ok with that. I have a feeling it will come out eventually and I might be the one who brings it out, or I might not be. And it will be ok. No matter how this all turns out, I will refuse to let it turn bitter and nasty. That solves nothing and hurts all involved. Just because I've been hurt doesn't mean they haven't been hurt by this as well. And adding more hurt does no one any good at all.

 

It has been an eye opener, and I've learned so much. For that, as odd as it sounds, I am grateful. Pain is a great teacher.

 

For those of you who love your MM, how would you handle a situation where the wife was willing to bring it to the open and be accepting of it? Could you handle sharing openly?

 

CCL

[doushenka]

For those of you who love your MM, how would you handle a situation where the wife was willing to bring it to the open and be accepting of it? Could you handle sharing openly?

 

That has been my relationship with my love from the start. I met them both at once; our first date was all three of us talking about the way things would go. She is monogamous but Beloved and I are polyamorous, so we do a lot of talking and understanding. There are boundaries and guidelines in place; it is, in fact, possible to cheat in our sort of relationship, and we see to it that we don't.

 

(Incentive not to do that, by the way? Beloved would be cheating on two women if he went behind our backs with a third. If one BW's wrath is fearsome, imagine two!)

 

So I can handle sharing him openly, planning for a life with three instead of two. But -- and you know there's always a but -- he assures me that I am free to bring a fourth into our relationship, if I find one we can trust. You may not be so inclined, and I don't know if your man would want that. I am also an independent little cuss, for all that I love him (that would be "more than life"), so I can deal with not having him 24/7.

 

...that, and Beloved's beloved isn't my family member, didn't start this in betrayal, doesn't see me as an intruder but an addition... tiny but critical points of difference.

Edited December 27, 2009 by doushenka
bbcode FAIL.

[White Flower]

I have enjoyed reading everyones responses, though a few have reinforced me decision to post here and not on the infidelity board .

 

And I did want the OW advice here, though it was more interesting to read the after the affair thread for other opinions on it.

 

I do appreciate the responses I have received from everyone. I still haven't decided what I'm going to do, but I'm ok with that. I have a feeling it will come out eventually and I might be the one who brings it out, or I might not be. And it will be ok. No matter how this all turns out, I will refuse to let it turn bitter and nasty. That solves nothing and hurts all involved. Just because I've been hurt doesn't mean they haven't been hurt by this as well. And adding more hurt does no one any good at all.

 

It has been an eye opener, and I've learned so much. For that, as odd as it sounds, I am grateful. Pain is a great teacher.

 

For those of you who love your MM, how would you handle a situation where the wife was willing to bring it to the open and be accepting of it? Could you handle sharing openly?

 

CCL

There was a time I could consider this. Now that I know them better, their beliefs in tradition, etc., I don't believe they could handle it, especially her. If she approached me, knowing her through his eyes, I would be floored. I never consider approaching her anymore.

 

I do believe it is possible for some people. If the couple and the OW are financially stable and the OW enjoys a lot of alone time it can be a perfect set up. But only under these conditions can it work. Of course, everybody would have to have an open mind.

[White Flower]

That has been my relationship with my love from the start. I met them both at once; our first date was all three of us talking about the way things would go. She is monogamous but Beloved and I are polyamorous, so we do a lot of talking and understanding. There are boundaries and guidelines in place; it is, in fact, possible to cheat in our sort of relationship, and we see to it that we don't.

 

(Incentive not to do that, by the way? Beloved would be cheating on two women if he went behind our backs with a third. If one BW's wrath is fearsome, imagine two!)

 

So I can handle sharing him openly, planning for a life with three instead of two. But -- and you know there's always a but -- he assures me that I am free to bring a fourth into our relationship, if I find one we can trust. You may not be so inclined, and I don't know if your man would want that. I am also an independent little cuss, for all that I love him (that would be "more than life"), so I can deal with not having him 24/7.

 

...that, and Beloved's beloved isn't my family member, didn't start this in betrayal, doesn't see me as an intruder but an addition... tiny but critical points of difference.

LOL, I didn't see this post before I posted. Doushenka and her MC (married couple) are the exact example I offered.

[crazycatlady]

doushenka - Something about your name just sounds so lovely to me, don't know why. And your final point is a crucial one.

 

But I really don't think betrayal is always about cake eating. And I do think that some of it is about not wanting to hurt the other person. Which I know makes me a very odd BW. The damage a betrayal can do to you is only as strong as you give it power to do.

 

We have oddly talked about having polyamorous relationship, a few years ago. I have been a part of one in the past as a third when I was much younger. I am not wired that way, but as long as it could be someone I cared for and respected, I could deal with it. There is a person whom I care an awful lot about that I sometimes see, but its not love. I don't think I have it in me to love more then one like this.

 

Anyway thankyou for answering me.

 

CCL