Is there a difference?

[BurriedAlive]

I believe that if a MM gets involved in an affair, he is clearly lacking something at home. That may be sex or the feeling of being wanted or whatever... But what I am wondering is if a MM who is involved in an EA with no physical infidelity is more likely to leave his marriage than one in a PA?

 

The way I see it, an EA is probably more dangerous to a marriage than a PA because of the deep feelings involved. If an EA never turns physical I am thinking that MM has a little more respect for the OW than one who takes what he wants and then throws OW under the bus when he is done.

 

What I want to know is there a difference between a MM involved in a EA versus one that is involved in a PA?

[bentnotbroken]

I believe that if a MM gets involved in an affair, he is clearly lacking something at home. That may be sex or the feeling of being wanted or whatever... But what I am wondering is if a MM who is involved in an EA with no physical infidelity is more likely to leave his marriage than one in a PA?

 

The way I see it, an EA is probably more dangerous to a marriage than a PA because of the deep feelings involved. If an EA never turns physical I am thinking that MM has a little more respect for the OW than one who takes what he wants and then throws OW under the bus when he is done.

 

What I want to know is there a difference between a MM involved in a EA versus one that is involved in a PA?

 

Lots of men are missing something at home(women too) they all don't cheat. There is something missing within the person that allows them to find one of the most destructive methods to cope with issues.

[fooled once]

I believe that if a MM gets involved in an affair, he is clearly lacking something at home. That may be sex or the feeling of being wanted or whatever... But what I am wondering is if a MM who is involved in an EA with no physical infidelity is more likely to leave his marriage than one in a PA?

 

The way I see it, an EA is probably more dangerous to a marriage than a PA because of the deep feelings involved. If an EA never turns physical I am thinking that MM has a little more respect for the OW than one who takes what he wants and then throws OW under the bus when he is done.

 

What I want to know is there a difference between a MM involved in a EA versus one that is involved in a PA?

 

I believe a man who engages in a PA or an EA lacks something in those relationships also because he goes home to the wife.

 

I don't believe there is much difference in a man who "only" engages in a EA vs "only" a PA. There is still something wrong with HIM.

[Fallen Angel]

I believe that if a MM gets involved in an affair, he is clearly lacking something at home. That may be sex or the feeling of being wanted or whatever... But what I am wondering is if a MM who is involved in an EA with no physical infidelity is more likely to leave his marriage than one in a PA?

 

The way I see it, an EA is probably more dangerous to a marriage than a PA because of the deep feelings involved. If an EA never turns physical I am thinking that MM has a little more respect for the OW than one who takes what he wants and then throws OW under the bus when he is done.

 

What I want to know is there a difference between a MM involved in a EA versus one that is involved in a PA?

 

Hmmm.. I am not sure what you mean by this.. you think a MM has more respect simply because the OW never gets physical with him? I hardly think so. You seem to be of the mindset that affairs are either all EA or all PA and that is simply not the case in the majority of affairs. I think most are a combination of both EA and PA, or they start off as one and end up the other.

 

In MY case we had a friendship that lasted more than ten years, an EA that lasted more than a year, and are now in an affair that is a combination of best friends/EA/PA. But even so, it is still much more friendship/EA than anything else. By what you are saying that means that My MM now respects me less, simply because our affair became physical.

 

Trust that if a MM is going to throw his OW under the bus, he will throw her there no matter what their affair status.

 

An OW in an affair that has never gone physical is in MY OPINION, even MORE likely to be thrown under the bus, simply because the MM can use the fact that they have NOT been physical, and can say 'she is just crazy/stalker/doesn't want to take no for an answer/i just wanted to be friends, she wants more but I said no.. etc etc ad nausem.

 

But that is just my opinion.

[skylarblue]

My thought is a PA is more devastating and an EA is more dangerous. I’m sure both are painful. I find it highly unlikely for a MM to leave his W for a PA, but for me a PA would be harder/impossible to get over.

I’ve never looked at as if an EA never turns physical MM has a little more respect for the OW than one who takes what he wants and then throws OW under the bus when he is done. I just think in a PA there’s more of a understanding of “rules” or “(lack of) expectations”. Nobody’s really “taking” anything from the other because both are getting what they want. I don’t see how a PA could have much depth. And personally I expect and give my MM “permission” to throw me under the bus to his W. I think most MM do whether it’s PA or EA in order to “save” the M since most men don’t leave the W after Dday.

I use to think a MM was more likely to give up a PA than EA if discovered, but now I’m not sure. In the couple times that the MM’s A was discovered or confronted by W with suspicions, surprisingly they didn’t feel it warranted the need to stop seeing me. I understand why a MM is more likely to see his EA OP after Dday, but not the ones that risk it again for something as superficial as a PA.

[MizFit]

My thought is a PA is more devastating and an EA is more dangerous. I’m sure both are painful. I find it highly unlikely for a MM to leave his W for a PA, but for me a PA would be harder/impossible to get over.

I’ve never looked at as if an EA never turns physical MM has a little more respect for the OW than one who takes what he wants and then throws OW under the bus when he is done. I just think in a PA there’s more of a understanding of “rules” or “(lack of) expectations”. Nobody’s really “taking” anything from the other because both are getting what they want. I don’t see how a PA could have much depth. And personally I expect and give my MM “permission” to throw me under the bus to his W. I think most MM do whether it’s PA or EA in order to “save” the M since most men don’t leave the W after Dday.

I use to think a MM was more likely to give up a PA than EA if discovered, but now I’m not sure. In the couple times that the MM’s A was discovered or confronted by W with suspicions, surprisingly they didn’t feel it warranted the need to stop seeing me. I understand why a MM is more likely to see his EA OP after Dday, but not the ones that risk it again for something as superficial as a PA.

 

Sorry SB, but I disagree totally with this. My A started with the intention of being superficial and the intensity from the first time around gave us more than we expected. Shortly after a month we had said 'I love you' and when DDay came round and he went home the hurt was as monumental for him as for me. He's broken NC with phone calls, emails and a letter...that was almost immediate after DDay and has escalated since. I don't see how you can take the intimacy that's generated from a PA (when it's also emotional) and assume it's superficial and means less.

[ADF]

Men who have affairs are as likely to do it for ego gratification as thy are for sexual gratification. Sure, they like the sex. But just as important is the feeling that they are attractive, that they can "get" women besides their wives. Many even enjoy fooling their wives. Not getting something at home, my foot. Guys who have affairs do it forone reason: they want to.

[Boundary Problem]

Men who have affairs are as likely to do it for ego gratification as thy are for sexual gratification. Sure, they like the sex. But just as important is the feeling that they are attractive, that they can "get" women besides their wives. Many even enjoy fooling their wives. Not getting something at home, my foot. Guys who have affairs do it forone reason: they want to.

 

 

I don't discount what you are saying. But I think it is a bit more complicated.

 

They don't want to lose anything they have at home. They are often indifferent if the BS finds out (just in my limited experience).

 

But there is this cognitive loneliness that MM has. It isn't always a drive for sex. Sometimes yes, sometimes it is the "feeling of being alive" that they want.

 

Boredom and sex. I see those are reasons # 1 and 2 for MM to have affair.

 

Once it is a boredom issue, you are going to get the emotional/cognitive attachment. And that is when the trouble begins.

 

Sexual partners are easily replaceable.

 

(This is just my opinion)

[skylarblue]

Originally Posted by MizFit

Sorry SB, but I disagree totally with this. My A started with the intention of being superficial and the intensity from the first time around gave us more than we expected. Shortly after a month we had said 'I love you' and when DDay came round and he went home the hurt was as monumental for him as for me. He's broken NC with phone calls, emails and a letter...that was almost immediate after DDay and has escalated since. I don't see how you can take the intimacy that's generated from a PA (when it's also emotional) and assume it's superficial and means less.

 

MizFit, you misunderstood me. I don’t claim a PA (when it's also emotional) is superficial and means less. You’re right; it doesn’t. The fact that you intended to have a PA, but turned into emotions after the first time and love after a month disqualifies you from what I was referring to. My response was in relation to As that are and remain either STRICTLY PA (never any emotions involved) or EA (with no physical infidelity). I totally agree with you that PAs have the potential to become much more. I just wasn’t relating to it in that context and to my own experiences of strictly PAs where the MM was putting everything on the line for nothing. That’s what I don’t understand (I mean outside of it being the “nature of the beast”).

[Boundary Problem]

Here is the reality.

 

It is so much easier to hide an EA.

 

They strike at the heart of intimacy in the marriage.

 

But because the EA is so easy to hide, why should MM leave his marriage which would cost him 1/2 or more of all his property, respect etc).

 

My impression is that if MM isn't forced to at the beginning, he doesn't leave for either an EA or a PA unless he is forced to give up OW by his wife. And then it is a coin toss as to what he would rather give up (usually OW).

 

But an EA OW is FAR more dangerous to a marriage than a PA OW. But the wife holds more cards than she may realize. MMs are often fence-sitters. Which brings me back to secrecy.....

[MizFit]

Originally Posted by MizFit

Sorry SB, but I disagree totally with this. My A started with the intention of being superficial and the intensity from the first time around gave us more than we expected. Shortly after a month we had said 'I love you' and when DDay came round and he went home the hurt was as monumental for him as for me. He's broken NC with phone calls, emails and a letter...that was almost immediate after DDay and has escalated since. I don't see how you can take the intimacy that's generated from a PA (when it's also emotional) and assume it's superficial and means less.

 

MizFit, you misunderstood me. I don’t claim a PA (when it's also emotional) is superficial and means less. You’re right; it doesn’t. The fact that you intended to have a PA, but turned into emotions after the first time and love after a month disqualifies you from what I was referring to. My response was in relation to As that are and remain either STRICTLY PA (never any emotions involved) or EA (with no physical infidelity). I totally agree with you that PAs have the potential to become much more. I just wasn’t relating to it in that context and to my own experiences of strictly PAs where the MM was putting everything on the line for nothing. That’s what I don’t understand (I mean outside of it being the “nature of the beast”).

 

Many apologies! I did misunderstand...for all I overanalyze most of the time-I didn't this one!

[bdawn]

I think people who get involved in affairs are mostly lacking something within themselves. I once had an ex boyfriend who was absolutely impossible to please. It seemed that there was nothing I could do to make him feel loved enough. I believe he had a personality disorder and as a result he was a bottomless pit of need that nothing and nobody could fill. As far as I know he never cheated on me but he certainly felt abused and neglected by me even though I tried harder in that relationship then any other relationship I had ever been. Once someone told me how awful he described me to other people. He really painted me as a heartless selfish bitch and I was deeply hurt and shocked. I know beyond a shawdow of a doubt how much I loved him and how hard I tried to show him that I loved him. I guess my point is that just because a MM might portray his marriage or his wife as lacking it doesn't mean that it's the least bit true or if it is true it might be because of the defects of the MM and he is going to bring those defects into any relationship he has. And even if what he says is true and his marriage is lacking and his wife does have whatever character defects he has attributed to her, that he has chosen to deal with that by being deceitful still signifies a glaring defect within him. Also when I was trying to understand my ex I began researching mental illnesses and found that cheating and lying are hallmarks of a couple of personality disorders; mainly borderline personality disorder and narcissism. Many people with these disorders are high functioning. Meaning they come across as completely normal and sincere and it is only the people closest to them (ie children and wife) that have any inkling of the sickness inside of them. Most people thought my ex was a charming, sincere, nice guy. They would have been shocked had they known how he treated me when we were alone. I'm sure most people would have easily believed every bad thing he said about me because he just didn't come across as a needy attention seeker although that was truly what he was. At one time I believed all the bad stuff he told me about his past relationships, it just never occured to me to doubt him. Ever since he used me and destroyed me I now take everything people say about the significant others with a grain of salt.

[skylarblue]

Originally Posted by MizFit

Many apologies! I did misunderstand...for all I overanalyze most of the time-I didn't this one!

LOL…

 

Originally Posted by Boundary Problem

…It is so much easier to hide an EA…

I’m curious as to why an EA would be easier to hide. I’ve always thought a PA was easier (but maybe a little riskier) to hide because I assume that the WS would become noticeably emotionally distant from BS in an EA. I think changes to a M from a PA are less likely or noticeable or happen at a much slower pace. Granted I’ve never been in EA so…

[Boundary Problem]

Originally Posted by MizFit

Many apologies! I did misunderstand...for all I overanalyze most of the time-I didn't this one!

LOL…

 

Originally Posted by Boundary Problem

…It is so much easier to hide an EA…

I’m curious as to why an EA would be easier to hide. I’ve always thought a PA was easier (but maybe a little riskier) to hide because I assume that the WS would become noticeably emotionally distant from BS in an EA. I think changes to a M from a PA are less likely or noticeable or happen at a much slower pace. Granted I’ve never been in EA so…

 

 

 

With the internet, an EA is ridiculously easy to hide. I mean totally hidden. No trace, except for those involved and those they choose to tell.

 

You get to know someone's soul through their writing. Kindred spirits sort of thing.

 

Most marriages are emotionally distant, so the EA won't necessarily show up on the radar of the BS.

 

I can't really advise on the PA thing, since men have an incredible level of testoterone. I think female married cheaters might become unwilling to have sex with their husbands. So yes then the husband will start to notice a change.

[OWoman]

My impression is that if MM isn't forced to at the beginning, he doesn't leave for either an EA or a PA unless he is forced to give up OW by his wife.

 

My experience is very different. MMs leave when / if they are ready to leave, and not before. Any "leaving" before - whether they are kicked out by their Ws, or they themselves jump ship - would be short-lived and unsustainable.

 

That said, a MM who is ready to leave may choose to do so via an A, to help him transition, or he may embark on an A for a completely different reason and develop, or discover, readiness to leave his M during the course of the A.

 

I don't believe that being "forced" by either the OW or the BW makes a MM leave - not in a sustainable way anyway. A WS who is kicked out by the BS (and "leaves" that way) will typically not have worked through whatever it was that led to their "cheating" and may thus very likely repeat the behaviour, should the same circumstances arise. OTOH, a CS who leaves (without a DDay) because they are ready to move on is in a far better position to make a healthy, sustainable go of it.

[Spoiled]

With the internet, an EA is ridiculously easy to hide. I mean totally hidden. No trace, except for those involved and those they choose to tell.

 

You get to know someone's soul through their writing. Kindred spirits sort of thing.

 

Most marriages are emotionally distant, so the EA won't necessarily show up on the radar of the BS.

 

I can't really advise on the PA thing, since men have an incredible level of testoterone. I think female married cheaters might become unwilling to have sex with their husbands. So yes then the husband will start to notice a change.

 

My EA was very easy to hide because we were both emotionally distant from our spouses. I am an xMOW and I had more sex with my H during the year of my A than the two years prior. My H never noticed a change and found it difficult to believe I was sleeping with both.

[Fallen Angel]

With the internet, an EA is ridiculously easy to hide. I mean totally hidden. No trace, except for those involved and those they choose to tell.

 

You get to know someone's soul through their writing. Kindred spirits sort of thing.

 

Most marriages are emotionally distant, so the EA won't necessarily show up on the radar of the BS.

 

I can't really advise on the PA thing, since men have an incredible level of testoterone. I think female married cheaters might become unwilling to have sex with their husbands. So yes then the husband will start to notice a change.

 

What a sad statement about how you feel about marriage. I don't happen to agree with you, what we see on these boards are not 'the norm' I think for the majority of marriages. And I just refuse to believe that will be the outcome of any future marriage I may be a part of. You would think that after the hell my first marriage was, I would never want to think about getting married again, and perhaps I am so much of a romantic that I will always end up unhappy, but I still believe in fairytales, and I just can't accept that as fact. (It really makes me want to hug you though, that you think that... it makes me sad for you... )

[MizzBlue72]

I think that men who have EAs are more likely to leave than just pure PAs.

A friend of mine told me this - along time ago. It may offend some, but here it goes:

Sex is sex ... whether it's good sex or bad. If you THINK that he stays with you because the sex is great- you are fooling yourself. He will find a hotter, wilder ride somewhere else.

 

It's true. If us, as OW think for one minute that the MM we are with stays because the sex is phenomenal - we are SO kidding ourselves!!

 

I bet the sex was fantastic with his wife too when they were first married

[jennie-jennie]

I believe a man who engages in a PA or an EA lacks something in those relationships also because he goes home to the wife.

 

Have you been reading up on the Split Self Affair, FO? These MM rely on the OW for the emotional part of themselves, and on the spouse for a sense of family. The trick is for them to join these two parts WITHIN themselves, so they don't need two women to do the trick.

 

Once they have joined the emotional and the responsible part of themselves, they will be capable of choosing whether they want to stay in the marriage, divorce and live by themselves or divorce and continue a relationship with the OW. According to therapist Emily Brown it is likely to take at least two years of IC to get there. So much for "if he loved you, he would leave". He can't leave, because of his internal difficulties. He has to heal himself within first.

[jennie-jennie]

My experience is very different. MMs leave when / if they are ready to leave, and not before. Any "leaving" before - whether they are kicked out by their Ws, or they themselves jump ship - would be short-lived and unsustainable.

...

 

I don't believe that being "forced" by either the OW or the BW makes a MM leave - not in a sustainable way anyway. ...

 

Exactly. Which is why NC by the OW does not work. The MM is most likely not ready to leave the marriage, and will not become ready by NC.

 

GEL and OWoman are often brought up as examples here on LS of how to handle a MM. I would say they were just lucky that their MM were ready to leave. That is the key.

 

Not forgetting, that during the affair you do set the stage for the post affair relationship. But you can't force a MM to choose before he is ready to.

Edited December 15, 2009 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

The danger for the marriage lies in the deep emotional connection which can be present in both the EA and the PA, just as the sexual undertones can be present in both the EA and the PA.

 

With a deep emotional connection and a deep physical intimacy wouldn't such a PA be the largest threat to the marriage? A lot of MM start feeling guilty when they have sex with their wife, as if they were unfaithful to their OW. This shows where the strongest bond is.

[Impudent Oyster]

Here is the reality.

 

It is so much easier to hide an EA.

 

They strike at the heart of intimacy in the marriage.

 

But because the EA is so easy to hide, why should MM leave his marriage which would cost him 1/2 or more of all his property, respect etc).

 

My impression is that if MM isn't forced to at the beginning, he doesn't leave for either an EA or a PA unless he is forced to give up OW by his wife. And then it is a coin toss as to what he would rather give up (usually OW).

 

But an EA OW is FAR more dangerous to a marriage than a PA OW. But the wife holds more cards than she may realize. MMs are often fence-sitters. Which brings me back to secrecy.....

 

I agree with this.

 

Sex is sex, it can be completely meaningless...literally.

 

But an emotional connection is something far more threatening to a marriage than a man going out and getting some strange, even if it goes on for awhile.

 

Also there doesn't have to be anything missing in a marriage for something to cheat, only something missing within the cheater.

[MizzBlue72]

I agree with this.

 

Sex is sex, it can be completely meaningless...literally.

 

But an emotional connection is something far more threatening to a marriage than a man going out and getting some strange, even if it goes on for awhile.

 

Also there doesn't have to be anything missing in a marriage for something to cheat, only something missing within the cheater.

 

 

Absolutely - hit the nail on the head!!

And - how many MM actually really DO leave their wives???? I mean, as OW, we have heard it ALL ... I mean, some of us have.

 

Also - I am really thinking that the MM who are lacking something - do they ever really find it??

They may tell the OW 'I have never felt like this', or 'it has NEVER been like this', or 'We have SUCH a connection!!'. This always makes me wonder. Did the MM have that SAME connection with the W at some point?? I am thinking they had to somewhere.....

[HappyAtLast]

I fell in love with my other woman... head over heels, completely, hopelessly in love (still am, always will be).

 

There is nothing that have could have kept me married to my then-wife, absolutely nothing.

 

Sex is sex, being in love puts you on an entirely different playing field.

[NoIDidn't]

I fell in love with my other woman... head over heels, completely, hopelessly in love (still am, always will be).

 

There is nothing that have could have kept me married to my then-wife, absolutely nothing.

 

Sex is sex, being in love puts you on an entirely different playing field.

 

Hi, HAL! Long time, no *see*!

 

You also were completely OUT of love for your W and only remained in your marriage until your children were gone, according to your previous posts.

 

I agree with JJ. So many (me included) bring up OWoman and GEL, but the truth is, their MM were like you - ready to go anyway.