torranceshipman Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Do you think many OWs put up with hard times because they assume there will be an endpoint (eg he'll leave W eventually), but the MM often never thinks further than the next 24hrs? That'd explain a lot of the lies, i.e. Just saying whatever the AP wants to hear regardless of what it us? maybe assuming the M person has any focus or end in sight is a huge mistake to make. What do you think? Link to post Share on other sites
MizFit Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Mine did...he thought we'd have the A and that I'd keep dating people and eventually fall in love and leave him behind. What he never counted on was his wife catching him and putting forward her endpoint. My xMM never promised me anything. Exactly the opposite in fact...he always said he would fight to stay home and he did. Oddly enough his actions were clear he did an awful lot to get caught and now that NC has been broken he's still taking actions that are different than his words... Link to post Share on other sites
moaningmyrtle Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Do many MM ever have an endpoint in mind? Only their own I imagine. Link to post Share on other sites
Author torranceshipman Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 Do many MM ever have an endpoint in mind? Only their own I imagine. Lol!: D Link to post Share on other sites
Brightmoon Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Sweeping generalisation here, but I guess anyone married who embarks on an affair does not have leaving their partner in mind at all. If that was ever an issue, they would leave them anyway, surely.. Sad to say.. the other woman or man is a bit on the side and things get serious and all hell breaks loose eventually. Like I say.. sweeping generalisation. Link to post Share on other sites
jnd2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 The MM I am/was messing around with brought up how when he and his wife start trying to have kids is basically when he'll stop. We're both in school, and he doesn't want kids until he's done (about another year). We'll see. Link to post Share on other sites
Author torranceshipman Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 It just got me thinking that the OW might simply assume, by default, an endpoint in mind when embarking on an A (again, generalizing but in majority of cases where the OW gets really hurt this seems to be the case) - and the mistake is pushing this assumption on to the actual A, and the MM, who has never - and will never - operate under this assumption. Best to readjust thinking, in my view, that there is no assumption of any particular direction, save for whatever happens between the MM and OW that day. Of course the MM doesn't help when he cottons on to exactly what the OW wants (endpoint) and lies accordingly so that he is telling her what she wants to hear...but nevertheless if you abandon an assumption that he AND you are thinking of an endpoint it would save his lies and would avoid so many broken hopes for the future. Link to post Share on other sites
Brightmoon Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 It just got me thinking that the OW might simply assume, by default, an endpoint in mind when embarking on an A (again, generalizing but in majority of cases where the OW gets really hurt this seems to be the case) - and the mistake is pushing this assumption on to the actual A, and the MM, who has never - and will never - operate under this assumption. Best to readjust thinking, in my view, that there is no assumption of any particular direction, save for whatever happens between the MM and OW that day. Of course the MM doesn't help when he cottons on to exactly what the OW wants (endpoint) and lies accordingly so that he is telling her what she wants to hear...but nevertheless if you abandon an assumption that he AND you are thinking of an endpoint it would save his lies and would avoid so many broken hopes for the future. I think I see what you mean torrance... Hmmm.. yes... I have to say.. in my limited experience.. I guess I fell for this married man, and I guess it was a buried wish, hope.. belief even that he would run away with me...cos we got on so well and I loved ...LOVE him. I thought this despite him telling me that he dose not want me to think that "The the impossible will ever be possible" I harboured hopes deep down....while telling him I knew exactly where I stood. That is how I felt. Link to post Share on other sites
Fallen Angel Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I have asked My MM about this before, asked him what his plan was when he started all this with me. He said he never had a plan, as he never intended to fall in love with me. I have asked him now that he did fall in love, what his plan was, he says he still has no clue, but he can not imagine spending any of his life without me.. whatever the hell that means... Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Do you think many OWs put up with hard times because they assume there will be an endpoint (eg he'll leave W eventually), but the MM often never thinks further than the next 24hrs? That'd explain a lot of the lies, i.e. Just saying whatever the AP wants to hear regardless of what it us? maybe assuming the M person has any focus or end in sight is a huge mistake to make. What do you think? I'm sure some MMs do not have any endpoint when they start an affair.. I'm sure some MMs do have a plan to end their marriage when they start an affair.. I'm sure some MMs have no ideas where the A will lead them... With my first A, I was head over heels in love with this man (my fist ex).. our A lasted 11 years... then I had him all for myself for 18 years... When we first started.. no one could predict where it would take us.. It's impossible to generalize.. Link to post Share on other sites
Author torranceshipman Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 I'm sure some MMs do not have any endpoint when they start an affair.. I'm sure some MMs do have a plan to end their marriage when they start an affair.. I'm sure some MMs have no ideas where the A will lead them... With my first A, I was head over heels in love with this man (my fist ex).. our A lasted 11 years... then I had him all for myself for 18 years... When we first started.. no one could predict where it would take us.. It's impossible to generalize.. But you had to wait 11 years?! True love or not, I would not have that patience! Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I'm sure some MMs do not have any endpoint when they start an affair.. I'm sure some MMs do have a plan to end their marriage when they start an affair.. I'm sure some MMs have no ideas where the A will lead them... Agree. None of my MMs had any plan in mind - they'd never considered having an A until I suggested it to them. But I know several others who went into it hoping it would "cure" them of their M - and it did - and others who just played it by ear, "living in the moment"... Link to post Share on other sites
wheelwright Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I think the APs are aware of several possible endpoints. And they spend the A time trying to work out exactly what is the endpoint they need/want/can cope with. Those who drag the A time out thus avoiding getting to the endpoint are strange. I am thinking they are either happier as things are than they would be ending either the M or A cowards cake eaters lost or a mixture Endpoints usually spell a great deal of heartbreak for all involved, so the cowardice is compassion based, but perhaps misguided in this. My xMOM was well aware of the endpoints. He said at the start that fooling around was one thing, two broken families another, and a place he didn't want to go. Then he got scared he was falling in love and ended it. Then he came back, fell in love, and broke up with his W. Then realised he couldn't cope with breaking his family, and we ended it for good. I have never met anyone so conscious of endpoints as my xMOM. And me? I never expected the endpoint I got, as I expected we would stay friends after the split. His DDay meant otherwise. I was naive really. Link to post Share on other sites
White Flower Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) Do you think many OWs put up with hard times because they assume there will be an endpoint (eg he'll leave W eventually), but the MM often never thinks further than the next 24hrs? That'd explain a lot of the lies, i.e. Just saying whatever the AP wants to hear regardless of what it us? maybe assuming the M person has any focus or end in sight is a huge mistake to make. What do you think? I think we're all different so we'll all have different answers. Early in my A I never imagined he would leave and I never pressed for such a thing. I let him tell me 'whatever I wanted to hear' because I enjoyed it. Over time the A became less amusing and I needed something more. Suddenly it became OK for me to think of 'endpoints'. He knows now that he can't just tell me anything to amuse me. Is it a mistake? Not if you stick by your guns. Either he gives you what you want or you walk. So simple. Yes, it is a mistake to assume so don't assume. Make sure you're on the same page. My MM had a few OWs before me and he wasn't good at ending any of those As. I guess you could say he didn't see an endpoint with any of them. If you don't force a man to deal with his past, he will let it continue indefinitely. And it floors me how so many OWs allow it to happen. But for them, I suppose most of them enjoyed the A dynamic and didn't look for endpoints either. Edited December 14, 2009 by White Flower Link to post Share on other sites
skylarblue Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I wonder how many MM who claim to be in “bad” M really are. I’ve seen plenty of posts asking “if a MM is truly unhappy why does he choose to stay with his W” and then plenty of reasons (kids, $$, etc.) why he can’t leave. I actually never understood how/why a single woman could be committed to a MM (when he lives with W and OW is a secret), and wait around for him to finally choose her. Its like the MM holds all power. I think the majority of WH eventually know they are not going to leave there established/secure/guaranteed family for a possible/50-50/uncertainity R. I don’t think they necessarily coldheartedly calculate stringing the OW along, but I do think they are willing to continue to be “untruthful” by giving her enough hope that they will end up together. I know that some MM leave their W for the OW, but I think in the majority of As it is the OW (as a result of being secondary in the R) that ends it with the WS. Link to post Share on other sites
MizFit Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I wonder how many MM who claim to be in “bad” M really are. I’ve seen plenty of posts asking “if a MM is truly unhappy why does he choose to stay with his W” and then plenty of reasons (kids, $$, etc.) why he can’t leave. I actually never understood how/why a single woman could be committed to a MM (when he lives with W and OW is a secret), and wait around for him to finally choose her. Its like the MM holds all power. I think the majority of WH eventually know they are not going to leave there established/secure/guaranteed family for a possible/50-50/uncertainity R. I don’t think they necessarily coldheartedly calculate stringing the OW along, but I do think they are willing to continue to be “untruthful” by giving her enough hope that they will end up together. I know that some MM leave their W for the OW, but I think in the majority of As it is the OW (as a result of being secondary in the R) that ends it with the WS. It's so funny to think of this and compare my xMM. He has been clear from the start that he would fight tooth and nail to stay home...how many times did I tell him to go home and fix things...how many times did I tell him to stop looking outside the marriage. I fell for him and I wasn't going to be walking away...he always said he didn't want to. That makes him a cakeeater-honest to me, but a cakeeater. Here is the odd part...his words said 'I don't want to get caught and if I do I'll not leave willingly', but his actions were all about risk, chance and getting caught. Now, about 5 weeks after DDay, his actions are doing the same again. I'm still amazed that he dodged the bullet and is so quickly willing to step into the line of fire again. I'm convinced he thinks he has an endpoint in mind (being able to be home), but his actions defy that endpoint...go figure... Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 It's so funny to think of this and compare my xMM. He has been clear from the start that he would fight tooth and nail to stay home...how many times did I tell him to go home and fix things...how many times did I tell him to stop looking outside the marriage. I fell for him and I wasn't going to be walking away...he always said he didn't want to. That makes him a cakeeater-honest to me, but a cakeeater. Here is the odd part...his words said 'I don't want to get caught and if I do I'll not leave willingly', but his actions were all about risk, chance and getting caught. Now, about 5 weeks after DDay, his actions are doing the same again. I'm still amazed that he dodged the bullet and is so quickly willing to step into the line of fire again. I'm convinced he thinks he has an endpoint in mind (being able to be home), but his actions defy that endpoint...go figure... I've known those types, too. I think at least in part it is disengenuous - and a very good way to avoid responsibility. "She knew where she stood - I told her I wasn't going to leave my M" puts any responsibility for the OW's disappointment at being thrown under a bus squarely on the OW's shoulders, while being so brazen about his risk-taking "absolves" him with his W - "I wasn't exactly hiding that I was seeing someone else - it was pretty obvious; you chose to ignore it, so you must have been cool with it", which makes the W out to be foolish for not having called him out on his behaviour, and thus being seen to endorse it. Of course, their get-out-of-jail-free card seldom works as they plan.... Link to post Share on other sites
delirious Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I thought our end point had come, the w has apparently had a phone call telling her of our affair, he just continues to deny.She knows he is lying. Also we have been caught on the phone, he continues to deny. After reading LS I really thought that would be it, but no. As for thinking about an end point when embarking on an affair, really you do not even think of a start point. You do not think you will be madly in love, you do not think you would not be able to walk away. nobody can control their feelings that much. That's why we are in this mess. Link to post Share on other sites
MizFit Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I've known those types, too. I think at least in part it is disengenuous - and a very good way to avoid responsibility. "She knew where she stood - I told her I wasn't going to leave my M" puts any responsibility for the OW's disappointment at being thrown under a bus squarely on the OW's shoulders, while being so brazen about his risk-taking "absolves" him with his W - "I wasn't exactly hiding that I was seeing someone else - it was pretty obvious; you chose to ignore it, so you must have been cool with it", which makes the W out to be foolish for not having called him out on his behaviour, and thus being seen to endorse it. Of course, their get-out-of-jail-free card seldom works as they plan.... Interesting concept...he was never quite to the point he was flaunting it, but the risks were much higher than I'd have expected. I do think a lot of what you're saying is valid and very interesting. As far as throwing me under the bus...there were a few things he did where I could have been well and truly thrown under the bus. He chose to not do that...he did to me what he always said he would-leave the relationship for his M. I think he also knows that if he had intentionally sent me anything or 'ambushed' me I'd have been at his door and sorting out in person with both of them. If he'd thrown me in front of the bus I'd gotten up and pushed back a little. Link to post Share on other sites
White Flower Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I've known those types, too. I think at least in part it is disengenuous - and a very good way to avoid responsibility. "She knew where she stood - I told her I wasn't going to leave my M" puts any responsibility for the OW's disappointment at being thrown under a bus squarely on the OW's shoulders, while being so brazen about his risk-taking "absolves" him with his W - "I wasn't exactly hiding that I was seeing someone else - it was pretty obvious; you chose to ignore it, so you must have been cool with it", which makes the W out to be foolish for not having called him out on his behaviour, and thus being seen to endorse it. Of course, their get-out-of-jail-free card seldom works as they plan.... I know this was where my guy stood for years. He used to make comments such as, 'I've been thinking about it and I just don't want my W to lose her insurance'. Um, why didn't he continue and say, 'so I can't see you.'? Then he would go in for the big kiss. Very confusing, but he was good at his work. Link to post Share on other sites
tami-chan Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 When I was with my OM/MM he said he and his then wife lead/lived parallel lives- as a result I was not a secret to his people. He was however to mine. He wanted to marry me and divorced his wife. The divorce was of course not because of me, in their case it was a formality. So yes, there was an endpoint-it was marriage to me...I, however, didn't have an "endpoint". Link to post Share on other sites
atlnay Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 In the early stages I asked my MM how long were we going to do this, he said as long as he could keep it up, I pouted, he quickly said ok forever. Link to post Share on other sites
White Flower Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 In the early stages I asked my MM how long were we going to do this, he said as long as he could keep it up, I pouted, he quickly said ok forever. Do/did you believe him? Are you still together? How long is/was the A? Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I've known those types, too. I think at least in part it is disengenuous - and a very good way to avoid responsibility. "She knew where she stood - I told her I wasn't going to leave my M" puts any responsibility for the OW's disappointment at being thrown under a bus squarely on the OW's shoulders, while being so brazen about his risk-taking "absolves" him with his W - "I wasn't exactly hiding that I was seeing someone else - it was pretty obvious; you chose to ignore it, so you must have been cool with it", which makes the W out to be foolish for not having called him out on his behaviour, and thus being seen to endorse it. Of course, their get-out-of-jail-free card seldom works as they plan.... I find the MMs that do this to be particularly narcissistic. Usually neither their OWs or their W's are happy with them. They take far more than they give. Their endpoint on either relationship is when they get tired of it. Or when they get caught. Link to post Share on other sites
atlnay Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Do/did you believe him? Are you still together? How long is/was the A? It's funny looking back on who I was when he told me that and who I've become now and it's only been about 4 months ago. At the time: - I wanted to believe him so I stayed with him even though deep down I could see the writing on the wall - The A started after he got married, we had been fooling around for about 7 months up till that point. All in all it's been a year. 7 months with him being single(mostly emotional) , 5 months of with him being married (physical started). Right now: - I believe he wants to keep going as long as wifey doesn't find out. He's not leaving her. I get that now. - I no longer work with him and have started NC Link to post Share on other sites
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