feelings vs reality

[wheelwright]

I have never loved like I loved MM. Perhaps the same back from him.

 

Commitment to others makes it a difficult choice.

 

So the question is, do people choose what they choose on the basis of the depth of their feelings, or on the level of commitment? If a MM chooses his M, is this to do with shallow feelings about MW, or about commitment to a life plan/love for what they have shared with BS?

 

And if the feeings are love, how do we all get over it if we choose commitment? Why is commitment such an important part? I am not strong enough to refuse love in the face of commitment. Is this to do with my feelings about love, or about my lack of commitment?

[NowhereToHide]

I have never loved like I loved MM. Perhaps the same back from him.

 

Commitment to others makes it a difficult choice.

 

So the question is, do people choose what they choose on the basis of the depth of their feelings, or on the level of commitment? If a MM chooses his M, is this to do with shallow feelings about MW, or about commitment to a life plan/love for what they have shared with BS?

 

And if the feeings are love, how do we all get over it if we choose commitment? Why is commitment such an important part? I am not strong enough to refuse love in the face of commitment. Is this to do with my feelings about love, or about my lack of commitment?

 

 

You are asking all the questions that are at the crux of an affair. How exactly does one make the decision to choose one course of action over another. And I don't think there is one answer... meaning I think everyone chooses for different reasons that are based on their feelings, their backgrounds, their history, etc.

 

I am an incredible romantic. When I met my xAP, I couldn't imagine my life without him. I fell hard, and it was love, I know that for sure. But, I didn't choose him. It was the commitment I had to my family that won out over him. I, too, think I am barely strong enough to refuse love in the face of commitment. And I am still mourning my xAP and what we could have been together. But at the end of the day, we didn't love each other enough to get over the inevitable hurdles to be together.... and we both loved our children too much.

 

I think every situation is different. It takes both people in the A to be willing to sacrifice SO much in order to be together. Commitment is an incredibly strong thing and hard for many to walk away from (thankfully).

[Virgo1982]

I, too, think I am barely strong enough to refuse love in the face of commitment. And I am still mourning my xAP and what we could have been together. But at the end of the day, we didn't love each other enough to get over the inevitable hurdles to be together.... and we both loved our children too much.

 

I think every situation is different. It takes both people in the A to be willing to sacrifice SO much in order to be together. Commitment is an incredibly strong thing and hard for many to walk away from (thankfully).

 

You still chose love over committment because your children were a huge factor in your decision to stay.

[beachbabyblues]

I have never loved like I loved MM. Perhaps the same back from him.

 

Commitment to others makes it a difficult choice.

 

So the question is, do people choose what they choose on the basis of the depth of their feelings, or on the level of commitment? If a MM chooses his M, is this to do with shallow feelings about MW, or about commitment to a life plan/love for what they have shared with BS?

 

And if the feeings are love, how do we all get over it if we choose commitment? Why is commitment such an important part? I am not strong enough to refuse love in the face of commitment. Is this to do with my feelings about love, or about my lack of commitment?

I will follow this thread with much interest. Reminds me of the nature vs nuture question hmmm??????

[Samantha0905]

But at the end of the day, we didn't love each other enough to get over the inevitable hurdles to be together.... and we both loved our children too much.

 

I think every situation is different. It takes both people in the A to be willing to sacrifice SO much in order to be together. Commitment is an incredibly strong thing and hard for many to walk away from (thankfully).

 

I agree with you. Except, maybe you two did love each other enough to understand the sacrifices involved. Sometimes love, regardless of how strong, is not selfish. Maybe going over the hurdles seemed too selfish? I think that's a nice kind of love and hope to have it in my life more often.

[jwi71]

So the question is, do people choose what they choose on the basis of the depth of their feelings, or on the level of commitment?

 

Commitment is built upon feelings. When the feelings change, the commitment built upon such is bound to shake, perhaps crumble. I can think of few situations where the commitment is first then the feelings (arranged marriage is one example, likely others).

 

If a MM chooses his M, is this to do with shallow feelings about MW, or about commitment to a life plan/love for what they have shared with BS?

To put this simply...the AP is RARELY "real". There is a difference between love and infatuation and even though the OM/OW may be in love...the MM/MW is likely not. These cowards, for whatever excuses the offer, have little intention of leaving. If they did, they would be having divorces and NOT affairs. Instead, the OM/OW is little more than an ego stroke - supplying that "whatever" is missing. Oh, I'm not saying the MM/MW doesn't feel...I'm saying it isn't love. Its infatuation.

 

And if the feeings are love, how do we all get over it if we choose commitment?

Its unrequited in my view. I have little doubt it feels like love to the OW/OM (especially if single). But to the MM/MW...it isn't.

I simply believe a person in love moves heaven and earth to be with the object of their affection.

 

Why is commitment such an important part?

Because society says so. Because it says SO much about those who readily enter commitments...and readily break them. In the business world, they suffer a quick death. After all, if you knew Joe's Bakery wantonly violated a sales contract...would you go into business with them when others have not?

 

I am not strong enough to refuse love in the face of commitment.

If you love another...then how is it you (generic you) are so readily constrained by marriage? In this world its common to have a no-fault divorce. Divorcees no longer carry that stigma. So, get divorced (legitmately break the commitment) and pursue true love. Not hard at all. Socially acceptable. Yet so many MM/MW do not.

 

To me, its because its not love at all. Its a temporary fix to failures and fault in the WS. If they loved the AP, the AP and the MM/MW would be married.

 

Any way you slice it...the MM/MW doesn't FEEL ENOUGH for the AP. Certainly not love.

[NowhereToHide]

Commitment is built upon feelings. When the feelings change, the commitment built upon such is bound to shake, perhaps crumble. I can think of few situations where the commitment is first then the feelings (arranged marriage is one example, likely others).

 

To put this simply...the AP is RARELY "real". There is a difference between love and infatuation and even though the OM/OW may be in love...the MM/MW is likely not. These cowards, for whatever excuses the offer, have little intention of leaving. If they did, they would be having divorces and NOT affairs. Instead, the OM/OW is little more than an ego stroke - supplying that "whatever" is missing. Oh, I'm not saying the MM/MW doesn't feel...I'm saying it isn't love. Its infatuation.

 

Its unrequited in my view. I have little doubt it feels like love to the OW/OM (especially if single). But to the MM/MW...it isn't.

I simply believe a person in love moves heaven and earth to be with the object of their affection.

 

Because society says so. Because it says SO much about those who readily enter commitments...and readily break them. In the business world, they suffer a quick death. After all, if you knew Joe's Bakery wantonly violated a sales contract...would you go into business with them when others have not?

 

If you love another...then how is it you (generic you) are so readily constrained by marriage? In this world its common to have a no-fault divorce. Divorcees no longer carry that stigma. So, get divorced (legitmately break the commitment) and pursue true love. Not hard at all. Socially acceptable. Yet so many MM/MW do not.

 

To me, its because its not love at all. Its a temporary fix to failures and fault in the WS. If they loved the AP, the AP and the MM/MW would be married.

 

Any way you slice it...the MM/MW doesn't FEEL ENOUGH for the AP. Certainly not love.

 

 

I think this is an incredibly narrow view of what happens in some affairs, and certainly a very black & white view of what you think happens.

 

I am married and had an affair with a married man. We loved each other. But it is NOT black and white. While we loved each other a great deal, we felt that we could not break up our families -- does that mean it's not love? No... it just means that we decided that what would happen to our families wouldn't be worth it. So yes, we loved each other, but not enough to do what we would need to do to have a life together.

 

Just because a married person in an affair doesn't end his/her marriage to be with the OP does NOT mean they didn't love them. While that could be the case for some, I don't think it's true for all.

[jwi71]

I am married and had an affair with a married man. We loved each other. But it is NOT black and white. While we loved each other a great deal, we felt that we could not break up our families -- does that mean it's not love? No... it just means that we decided that what would happen to our families wouldn't be worth it. So yes, we loved each other, but not enough to do what we would need to do to have a life together.

 

And here's the problem I have.

You claim to love the OM but you won't leave your H to be with him.

You claim to love your H but then you go and cheat on him.

 

To me, if you truly loved your OM you would would be with him legitimately.

If you loved your H, you wouldn't cheat.

 

Yes, its really that simple.

[jennie-jennie]

And here's the problem I have.

You claim to love the OM but you won't leave your H to be with him.

You claim to love your H but then you go and cheat on him.

 

To me, if you truly loved your OM you would would be with him legitimately.

If you loved your H, you wouldn't cheat.

 

Yes, its really that simple.

 

In that case, your conclusion must be that a MM/MW loves neither his/her spouse nor his/her OP. The MM/MW ought to file for a divorce and live by themselves then?

[Moanin]

Without knowing your story jwi71, I'm assuming that you are a BS. Why is it that most (not all) BS refuse to believe that their spouse could actually fall in love with someone else? My theory is that it is purely a defense mechanism.

 

I believe that for those who truly fall in love outside of their marriage, but choose the commitment of their current situation, do so out of pure selflessness, especially when there are young children involved.

[jwi71]

In that case, your conclusion must be that a MM/MW loves neither his/her spouse nor his/her OP. The MM/MW ought to file for a divorce and live by themselves then?

 

That would be one conclusion.

Another could be they don't love either the BS or the AP. One might continue and muse the WS only loves them self...or doesn't.

 

I tend to think they don't actually love either BS or AP, they certainly don't treat either that way. So I prefer to call it infatuation.

 

Substitute love with infatuation and the WS begins to make more sense.

[jwi71]

Without knowing your story jwi71, I'm assuming that you are a BS. Why is it that most (not all) BS refuse to believe that their spouse could actually fall in love with someone else? My theory is that it is purely a defense mechanism.

 

It didn't take long for the "bitter BS" routine to appear.

[bentnotbroken]

Without knowing your story jwi71, I'm assuming that you are a BS. Why is it that most (not all) BS refuse to believe that their spouse could actually fall in love with someone else? My theory is that it is purely a defense mechanism.

 

I believe that for those who truly fall in love outside of their marriage, but choose the commitment of their current situation, do so out of pure selflessness, especially when there are young children involved.

 

 

Because a selfish person can't love anyone but themselves. Mr. Messy couldn't spell love if you spotted him the L and the O. As you do, "I" believe it is truly a defense mechanism for the AP to believe the "wub" thang. But since neither you nor I have any substantial research to support either of our "beliefs"...I guess all tell themselves what they need to hear to get through the day.

[2sure]

I have always considered myself a bit more black and white than many other people. I have thought this because leading with my head as opposed to my heart has made me make some hard decisions. To others, I know that I have come off at times, as cold.

 

But I dont think that anymore. I have the same emotions and heartfelt feelings as most other people. I am just as romantic, just as empathetic. My heart feels the same pull.

 

My feelings and decisions are based on both what is in my heart and what is in my head. Logistics, love, commitment, reality.

 

One is not exclusive of the other, one cannot lead with one and not the other.

 

Commitment is a large part of love. Without it, it isnt love at all but something else. One can not be chosen without the other.

[ladydesigner]

I am married and had an affair with a married man. We loved each other. But it is NOT black and white. While we loved each other a great deal, we felt that we could not break up our families -- does that mean it's not love? No... it just means that we decided that what would happen to our families wouldn't be worth it. So yes, we loved each other, but not enough to do what we would need to do to have a life together.

 

Just because a married person in an affair doesn't end his/her marriage to be with the OP does NOT mean they didn't love them. While that could be the case for some, I don't think it's true for all.

I tend to agree with this post. I also do not think it is black and white. I think it is very possible to love 2 different people. I believe there are different levels of love. My love that I have for my H is not the same as the love I had for my XOM. The love for my H is one out of years of knowing each other and there is still passion in my marriage. The love for XOM was new and we connected on a level closer to who I am than what I have with my H. I had a lot more shared ideas with XOM than I did with H, that is why we connected instantly. I was not physically attracted to XOM like I was to H. I was attracted to my XOM emotionally.

 

My marriage went through sort of a slump after having kids...husband never home...husband has affair...OM enters picture and wham I am totally caught off guard by my feelings for him. When I embarked on the affair I believe at first it was many things: I was vulnerable, sad and lonely in my marriage, hurt by H's affair. When XOM paid attention to me I immediately began having inappropriate thoughts of wanting to have an A with him. Yes I could have walked away, but I also felt a bit of the revenge factor towards my H and was seriously contemplating leaving him prior to my A. Anyways I didn't fall for XOM until weeks into the A, then I realized it was possible to fall in love with another person and NO it was not INFATUATION at all. What is the confusing part for me is that what I thought would only be a fling turned into something else. I never thought in my mind that I would fall in love with my XOM, but I did and it was a REALITY.

 

I believe the commitment of my M, the kids, and there still being love in the marriage was more important in the end than the A. My XOM left me, but I am really glad he did because I think I would have ended up regretting the decision, if I would have made it at that time, to leave my H for XOM.

[skylarblue]

Originally Posted by jwi71

Commitment is built upon feelings.

 

I absolutely agree. Commitment can stem from real feelings of obligation (a friend stayed in a truly miserable M because he wanted the kids to have a 2-parent household; he did not cheat). Or it can come from a person’s feelings of self-interest (i.e. I’m not willing to sacrifice the security and stability my family provides for a maybe R). I think in most cases the idea of commitment usually comes from the latter, “a bird in hand is worth two in the bush” concept. Anyone who is truly “committed” to their M doesn’t cheat (I don’t consider separation in anticipation of divorce cheating) for whatever reason. They either work thru things or figure out what’s next when they can’t or don’t want to work thru things. I just don’t buy the commitment b*llsh*t when it comes to infidelity where the WS is doing it behind the BS back. I think it’s just “easier” for people to stay married.

[MaureyL]

I don't actually think it is easier to stay married through the aftermath of an affair. And like ladydesigner, I also believe that it is completely possible to love two people, albeit differently, at the same time. Affairs torment everyone in the triangle.

 

This forum has helped me a great deal. And I am very attracted to the idea of not being in touch with someone as a loving thing to do, as well as a f/u thing too! Right now I am swinging between rage and euphoria over the situation as I can feel the grip it has had on me for almost two years now finally, gradually starting to loosen.

 

I have no doubt that my AP was torn between his obligations to his girlfriend and his long-held dream to become a teacher and me. It was completely impossible to begin with but we couldn't help ourselves. I tried a lot less hard to resist than he did, it must be said. I know in the end he couldn't face hurting his loyal girlfriend who has followed him around the world and supported his desire to train as a teacher. I think on some level he honestly believed that he could have his time with me completely separately and then take off into the sunset with long term girlfriend and no one would be any wiser. But she suspected/found out and I think trapped on a tropical island he probably broke down and confessed all.

 

But... that's all in the past now, for me. But I am slowly coming to terms with the idea that we did love each other very much. But there are always other people and other things to consider, aren't there??

 

Maurey x

[skylarblue]

Originally Posted by MaureyL

I don't actually think it is easier to stay married through the aftermath of an affair.

 

I’m not talking about in the aftermath of the A. For me, it’ll definitely be harder to stay and work thru it then leave. I mean in the instance of an A where the BS doesn’t know they’re being cheating on. I’m saying it’s easier for the WS to just stay married than reveal they were having an A and accept the consequences.

[MaureyL]

ah... I see what you mean. And on the surface, probably right, though I still believe that that kind of treachery eats away at a relationship from the inside out, like a cancer....

 

x

[GreenEyedLady]

It depends on the values of the MP.

 

Some value love. Some value stability. Some value saving face. Some just get caught up in it all. Some just want to take everything they can get.

 

But if you think it's easier to leave, you are WRONG. It might be easier for the BS to leave because staying would be harder for them. That's a bitter pill to swallow. But WS gets to keep everything he had and rarely BS rats them out to others, so status and respect stays too.

 

Now when they leave, everyone knows why and they have to start from scratch. WITH EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE. Not to mention lawyers, court dates, dividing assets and dealing with visitation schedules. Top it off, you could have a really bitter scorned ex.

 

So if someone chooses their M they could be choosing it because they love their W and they know they f'd up or not.

 

Frankly, you shouldn't dwell on it. What will be, will be. Live your life in a way so you'll be happy and without regret.

 

GEL

[wheelwright]

'It depends on the values of the MP.

 

Some value love. Some value stability. Some value saving face. Some just get caught up in it all. Some just want to take everything they can get.

 

But if you think it's easier to leave, you are WRONG. It might be easier for the BS to leave because staying would be harder for them. That's a bitter pill to swallow. But WS gets to keep everything he had and rarely BS rats them out to others, so status and respect stays too.

 

Now when they leave, everyone knows why and they have to start from scratch. WITH EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE. Not to mention lawyers, court dates, dividing assets and dealing with visitation schedules. Top it off, you could have a really bitter scorned ex.

 

So if someone chooses their M they could be choosing it because they love their W and they know they f'd up or not.

 

Frankly, you shouldn't dwell on it. What will be, will be. Live your life in a way so you'll be happy and without regret.

 

GEL '

 

Thanks for this GEL. Wise and to the point. I liked the last bit!

[her_halo_slipped]

And here's the problem I have.

You claim to love the OM but you won't leave your H to be with him.

You claim to love your H but then you go and cheat on him.

 

To me, if you truly loved your OM you would would be with him legitimately.

If you loved your H, you wouldn't cheat.

 

Yes, its really that simple.

If only it was that simple jwi . Then none of us would even have the need to post on LS. It is your view that is very simplistic...love no matter which way you look at it is a kaliedescope...a complex mix of colours and patterns, feelings and emotions. Sometimes some of us quite simply fall in love with two people at the same time. Sometimes that is not intentional. Feelings simply exist. Emotion follows. Does that make it right or wrong? Who's to make that judgement? Why do we need to make such a delineation anyway? Sometimes things just are. If you have never been in this position then maybe you should temper your judgement, reserve it for when you are experienced. You simply never know....your view may simply change.

[jwi71]

If only it was that simple jwi . Then none of us would even have the need to post on LS. It is your view that is very simplistic...love no matter which way you look at it is a kaliedescope...a complex mix of colours and patterns, feelings and emotions.

It is that simple. Its only hard because people CHOOSE to make it hard.I love the kaleidoscope analogy...THAT is very true. I must admit I plan on plagiarizing it going forward.

Sometimes some of us quite simply fall in love with two people at the same time. Sometimes that is not intentional. Feelings simply exist. Emotion follows.

I couldn't disagree more. You don't just fall in love. Its deliberate. What people feel is ATTRACTION. You feel an attraction to another. IF you act on it, then you may very well fall in love. But the choice to ACT is yours and yours alone. And every subsequent word and deed is chosen and deliberate TO keep the attraction alive because it makes us feel good. Over TIME (not overnight), LOVE forms. Love is NOT an accident...it takes time, work, and effort.

 

All of it deliberate choice.

 

Does that make it right or wrong? Who's to make that judgement?

I'm going to guess its wrong. Because its hidden. Typically from EVERYONE. So...who made that decision? BOTH the OM/OW and the MM/MW.

 

If its so right, why hide it from the ANYONE?

Why do we need to make such a delineation anyway?

Are you asking why we need to delineate between right and wrong?

I would think that would be obvious.

Sometimes things just are.

Rarely. And certainly not when it come to love. Again, its conscious deliberate choice. And when is cheating, they are choosing to hurt and deceive at least one other. I find that wrong.

 

Sounds like we will have to agree to disagree.

 

If you have never been in this position then maybe you should temper your judgement, reserve it for when you are experienced. You simply never know....your view may simply change.

I have never cheated. Because I have boundaries and respect for others.

Because I realize that the only one controlling me IS me. Because I understand the difference between love and attraction. Because I try to live a life where I do no harm.

 

No...that won't change. I'm proud of that...

[wheelwright]

'I couldn't disagree more. You don't just fall in love. Its deliberate. What people feel is ATTRACTION. You feel an attraction to another. IF you act on it, then you may very well fall in love' jwi21

 

Falling in love is not in the least bit deliberate. It is an out of control emotion, and that is what makes this forum what it is. People who haven't experienced it just don't know.

 

The only way you can control it is to not see the person at all. But of course, the love directive in us all drives us to see the one we love as often as we can.

 

Could I have controlled falling in love with my daughter? I would have been a cold person to enact this, though I know people do.

 

So yes, people who are not open to love can control it. But they are the only ones.

 

I have experienced attraction. I can easily walk away from that.

 

Falling in love is a totally magical experience.

[mybrowneyedgirl]

i agree. i didnt mean to fall in love at all. one day we looked at each other and there was this connection that we'd never had before. and we had known each other for years.

 

ive thought about this a lot recently. things may end with my H. its rocky and unsure. so i thought about dating. what do you do? go out with random people and see if you can develop feelings for them? and then see if you can fall in love?

 

its never been that way for me before. with my husband it was this instant feeling that came over me. the same with MM. i didnt go looking for love, its like it suddenly appeared.

 

not intentional with either of them. it just happened.