Do all MM/MW's need a push to leave?

[norajane]

OW and OM often say MM/MW chose to cheat and the responsibility does not lie with the OW/OM for making them cheat. True enough, cheaters don't need anyone trying to convince them to cheat on their spouses - they do it because they want to and choose to.

 

That causes me to wonder whether any of these MM/MW's ever leave their spouses on their own, just because they choose to and want to, without prompting from their affair partners? Without getting caught having an affair, or without some action from OW/OM - either a major ass-kicking, or subtle prompting, or ending the affair and NC first, and everything in between - do they ever leave on their own?

 

Has anyone here ever had their MM/MW just end their marriage by themselves without a push of some kind from their affair partners?

[frannie]

Ooooh great thread. Nice

 

I've been wondering the same of late. What was it that finally pushed him/her off the shelf? Was it anything that OP did, or was it something that 'happened' in the marriage or what was it?

 

And what state was the marriage in? And how long had the affair been going on, and so on. Maybe we can collate some useful information here?

 

I'll start: Four years of 'bad marriage' and I tried NC three times. Nothing whatever happened. Including I didn't really move on as such. However, after a d-day and contact from W, and further contact from MM I'm moving on somewhat more than I did in four years of affair. But still... he moves not. Well, in his mind he does

[norajane]

I think it's an important question. For all the OP's who get involved with all these people who claim their marriages are dead, it's crucial to understand if just waiting has ever worked, or if the OP, at some point, is going to have to do something and make a stand in order for MM/MW to get their ass in gear, one way or another.

 

If entering an affair and being in one means that more than likely, one day, you are going to have to push MM/MW, it's better to understand up front that's what you're signing up for. That they're not just going to divorce without you making a continual fuss about it, or one grand fuss.

 

I see a lot of posts by new-ish OP's, OP's who have just started developing a relationship or desire for a MP who bellyaches about their dead marriage. And they're hinging their decision to get involved further on the fact that the marriage 'is practically over'. If those OP's knew that, no matter how much bellyaching they're doing, and no matter how much love they profess for the OP, they still aren't likely to leave their spouse unless and until OP essentially forces them to make a decision, maybe these MP's wouldn't be so appealing in the first place?

[2sure]

Ive been thinking about this a lot, just because it is such a common question here on LS. In fact, my H and I have talked about it. He sees alot of infidelity among his peers, and often talks about it with me.

 

It seems like if a MM is having an A, he doesnt leave the marriage unless the wife divorces him. Makes the decision for him. MM seem to ultimately want things to stay the same or at least not be the one to draw up the papers. In fact, when the W finally has enough and kicks him to the curb - is when he starts snowing both women even more. I dont know why this is - it seems like his out, yet they dont take it.

 

My H added that if the wife divorces the WS, he is often so aggrevated with everything that the relationship with OW deteriorates. Men like to be married, so will probably remarry - just hardly ever to the OW.

 

Its sad all around.

[tft]

Hmmm, interesting theread.

 

Here's my background: EA sept 05, W found texts/emails 1 month later-he ended it.

Feb 06-gets back in touch. May 07 gets physical (he came to my city, I under the impression he'd left). Promises to leave. Does in March 08. Wobbled ever since, we're now NC while he sorts himself out.

 

He says to this day the only thing he could've done was leave, he was in love with me, his relationship had got to a point it was the only thing to. He wouldn't/couldn't make it work with her. She met someone else 2 months later, and appears happy. He is now regretting (I think) getting back in touch with me after he got caught with the EA, regretting not trying enough. Its a big mess now, topped off by the fact I work with him.

 

I didn't push him, I said if he moved here then I would be with him, but he knew I wouldn't be the OW indefinately.

 

She didn't kick him out when she discovered our EA.

 

I think he allowed his M to deterioate to a point he couldn't stay.

[wildsoul]

Great question! I'm keen to read more replies!

 

There have been 2x when my MM took bigger steps:

 

1. After we were seeing each other for a month, I realized that his M wasn't as over as he led me to believe. That's when it hit me that his W didn't seem to know. Boundary made: I told him he needed to be separated and living in his own place in order for us to date. Action taken: He rented a room nearby me in the time frame in said he would.

 

In June, things were strong with us, but I started to wonder how much the room rental was being used. He was at my place a lot, but still often at his M home where his home office was, etc. Then in July, his W lost her new job (after being unemployed for over a year.) He didn't SAY he was giving up the room rental, but when I pushed to find out the status of his M, it seemed that she was probably thinking that they were still M and that he was just "taking space." He said he "couldn't leave her then." So all progress towards S/D halted. I broke up with him over it in July. (I found this site right afterwards.)

 

2. Miserable w/o me, he wanted to get back together. Boundary made: I agreed as long as was officially separated and we were out of anything resembling an A. Action taken: He leased a 1-bedroom apartment, bought furniture, and seemed to be keeping his word about not going back.

 

Now, it's sure as hell looking like I need to reinforce the boundary again. I'm quite sure that if I pull back again, he will step up. He adamantly says he doesn't want me to set the timing for his D, yet his track record shows that he will get complacent and do some cake-eating (even if it's just to avoid the pain of being the bad guy that left.)

 

In theory, my breaking up with him is to protect me, as I have a timeline too. Yet there's no way to seperate the fact that my stepping back hurts enough to inspire action. It's murky. I don't want to do it to force him to act, yet the result is that he'll act just enough to appease me.

 

Overall, I'm of the opinion that most MP won't act as quickly (or at all) as long as the OP is willing to tolerate it.

[grogster]

I didn't. I ended my marriage and my affair (with a married woman) at about the same time. I needed no prompting and I held no illusions about my affair or my marriage. While I very much regret and lament my affair, I have no misgivings about ending my marriage.

 

That was about four years ago. While I've maintained a very good relationship with my ex-wife (who has just invited me for Thanksgiving at her place), I have absolutely no contact with the MW whom I've not seen or spoken to in years.

 

Today, I avoid married women like the plague.

[mytruelove]

good poll question...

 

personally, it took me saying that i could not have sex with my guy until he no longer was living with his now ex.

 

it went something like this... i told him i could no longer have sex with him, love him the way i do, and send him home to someone else.

 

followed some kicking and screaming and some really tough tense times, but he broke up with her

[norajane]

I didn't push him, I said if he moved here then I would be with him, but he knew I wouldn't be the OW indefinately.

 

She didn't kick him out when she discovered our EA.

 

I think he allowed his M to deterioate to a point he couldn't stay.

 

You don't consider that a push? I see it as you making a stand: no relationship with tft unless he moves to be with you.

[wildsoul]

You don't consider that a push? I see it as you making a stand: no relationship with tft unless he moves to be with you.

That exactly why I think it's "murky." There is a difference between taking a stand and giving a push:

• A stand says, "Here is what I need if you want to be with me."
  
• A push says, "Here is what you must do."
  

Perhaps the difference is negligble. If you're the OP, each feels different. The first is really for self-care, being willing to lose the R if needs can't be met. The 2nd is more coercive to force the MP. Though I think for the MP they both feel like ultimatums.

[grogster]

personally, it took me saying that i could not have sex with my guy until he no longer was living with his now ex.

 

it went something like this... i told him i could no longer have sex with him, love him the way i do, and send him home to someone else.

 

followed some kicking and screaming and some really tough tense times, but he broke up with her

 

 

To most men, withdrawing sex is the ultimate "push" or, more accurately, "pull" (as in the OW "pulling" the MM out of his marriage). Some serious pressure is being applied below the belt.

 

My suspicion is that the real brinkmanship occurs in asymmetric affairs: the MM and the single other woman (SOW).

 

In symmetric affairs--MM and MW--there's less need for sex-based ultimatums. More often than not, the MW (in a functional marriage) just wants to have some fun, and not endure the storm and stress of ending her marriage. The MW has much more to lose than the SOW. That's why the status quo is more appealing to the MW.

[Lizzie60]

From my personal experience.. my first ex would have never leave.. she kicked him out.. I was very young then... and I wanted him to move with me.. but he gave me all the excuses in the book.. (kids, finances, etc.) .. but after 11 years in our A.. she kicked him out.. she had known about our affairs for many years.. she just got fed up with him I guess.

 

From my experience with seeing a lot of MMs.. (long term and short term) they rarely leave on their own.. and this is NOT because they are in love with their W.. (most are bored actually, they are just good friends, more like roomates)... but because men are like that.. they want everything.. the W at home to take care of the house and the kids and .. yes.. themselves... then they like to have their kids around .. their friends, family.. and another very important reason for staying.. the finances..what they acquired over the years.. they don't want to let that go.. then... one day... they get a mistress... oooohhhh the joy!... now they have everything they need... a stable life at home... and an exciting sex life outside..

 

What more can they ask for???? really...

[tft]

That exactly why I think it's "murky." There is a difference between taking a stand and giving a push:

• A stand says, "Here is what I need if you want to be with me."
  
• A push says, "Here is what you must do."
  

Perhaps the difference is negligble. If you're the OP, each feels different. The first is really for self-care, being willing to lose the R if needs can't be met. The 2nd is more coercive to force the MP. Though I think for the MP they both feel like ultimatums.

 

Murky Indeed. I was just discussing this with my housemate.

 

I don't see it as an ultimatum, I just told him the step he needed to take in order for us to have a proper relationship. It was then up to him to decide. My housemate did seem to think that this was an ultimatum of sorts. Muddy, muddy waters.

[TooConfused2]

Thank you for posting this thread. This has been running through my head since my original post.

 

In my situation, I keep thinking push is needed. Its not that there is "love" and passion there in the marriage - there isn't. Twice now, D has come up, but something always happens to back it down. And its never "us". I think it has come down to fear of the unknown and guilt. Guilt over no longer wishing to be in a marriage. I don't know how common that is, but I'd imagine its common enough.

 

I push, not because I want to break up a happy marriage (because I know its not). I push because I "know" how much better it will be on the other side of it, but there seems to be fear to do anything about it. Every relationship has issues, but we will not have the issues that have killed this one. I'm determined to put forth the effort to make it work.

[norajane]

That exactly why I think it's "murky." There is a difference between taking a stand and giving a push:

• A stand says, "Here is what I need if you want to be with me."
  
• A push says, "Here is what you must do."
  

Perhaps the difference is negligble. If you're the OP, each feels different. The first is really for self-care, being willing to lose the R if needs can't be met. The 2nd is more coercive to force the MP. Though I think for the MP they both feel like ultimatums.

 

If that's how the MP sees it, it doesn't matter what anyone else calls it. The OP has to do SOMETHING in order to get the MP to act in most cases, ultimatum, stand, break, break-up, push, pull, coercion, persuasion, passive-aggressive manipulation, tears, arguments, something.

 

Going back to my first post, no OP wants to 'make' a MP have an affair with them, and they don't. So why do so many OP's end up having to make the MP act? If the OP knew going into an affair that one day they would have to 'make' the MP decide to change their relationship status and that the decision would definitely NOT come organically from the MP, would so many OP's get into the affair?

 

MP sell their affair partners a bill of goods in the beginning. "My marriage is dead, we sleep in separate rooms, it's really over, blahdeblah." What they don't add is "but despite all that, I'll never leave on my own unless you do something to compel me to leave." And even then, it's not a guarantee.

[norajane]

Every relationship has issues, but we will not have the issues that have killed this one. I'm determined to put forth the effort to make it work.

 

That's not enough. It takes BOTH partners to make a marriage work.

[TooConfused2]

That's not enough. It takes BOTH partners to make a marriage work.

 

We would. It won't be easy. Nothing that's worth it ever is, though.

 

I said it once before. I sincerely hope that I get the opportunity to share more details of my situation once it straightens out. I'd rather not right now, but if this all works out, I'll come clean.

[Lookingforward]

What about the ones we seem to be seeing more and more on here....where they DO leave "on their own" but then turn tail and run back to the "dead" marriage anyway?

[OpenBook]

He adamantly says he doesn't want me to set the timing for his D, yet his track record shows that he will get complacent and do some cake-eating (even if it's just to avoid the pain of being the bad guy that left.)

 

From my experience with seeing a lot of MMs.. (long term and short term) they rarely leave on their own.. and this is NOT because they are in love with their W.. (most are bored actually, they are just good friends, more like roomates)... but because men are like that.. they want everything.. the W at home to take care of the house and the kids and .. yes.. themselves... then they like to have their kids around .. their friends, family.. and another very important reason for staying.. the finances..what they acquired over the years.. they don't want to let that go.. then... one day... they get a mistress... oooohhhh the joy!... now they have everything they need... a stable life at home... and an exciting sex life outside..

 

What more can they ask for???? really...

 

I think both of these observations just about sum it up, in a nutshell (pun intended ha-ha). IMO, the MM is really just using both women, both his W and his OW. Is he REALLY all that wonderful??!? I've never met a man who was. OK, I confess, I thought so at the time. But it's just not so. NO man is worth this two-faced life.

 

He's betraying his own marriage vows with his W. And he's not making or keeping any commitments to his OW. He's treating both of them quite shoddily. And they're both letting him get away with it.

 

I'd really like to see more women grow some balls here -- on both sides of the fence, BW's and OW's alike! C'mon, it's your own life he's ruining! Are you really going to just sit there and take it??

[jj33]

You are right. They only get away with it because they are allowed to. Once either the OW or the BS stops playing... then they cant do that.

[norajane]

What about the ones we seem to be seeing more and more on here....where they DO leave "on their own" but then turn tail and run back to the "dead" marriage anyway?

 

Well, their actions tell you all you need to know about them, don't they? They were already out the door, and they turned around and went back home.

 

Whatever comes after that, the OP is the one out in the cold, on the outside looking in. Better to step away entirely!

[Lizzie60]

C'mon, it's your own life he's ruining! Are you really going to just sit there and take it??

 

Yabut.. he's not ruining everyone's life.. what about the OW who do not want him full time.. when it's more like a FWB kind of relationship..

 

I, for one, has never been 'ruined' by any man..

 

I like being the OW cause this is what I want.. no commitment... I don't even want them too close all the time..

 

This type of relationship is perfect for me.. and I'm sure I'm not the only one..

[GreenEyedLady]

In my case, I was clear that I wouldn't wait around any longer and that I was the one and only, or I was moving on. And he knew that I was serious and it was the last chance for us.

 

And so we are married now.

 

But I think that until someone meets someone else and is given a real reason to wreak havoc, they usually stay where they are.

 

There's a lot at risk. I think a lot of people don't want to think about being alone for the rest of their lives or of being financially ruined.

[jj33]

I agree with you GEL there is quite a bit at risk. But with respect to the title, do they need a push. I dont think anyone pushes anyone else out of a marriage. The WS makes that decision for themselves given all the variables, what they value in their marriage, what they would lose what they think is waiting on the other side. Its both a practical and emotional decision, and the balance between the two (practical and emotional) varies based on the individual's belief system.

 

But if by push you mean ultimatum I dont think those work. You vote with your feet.

[OWoman]

Has anyone here ever had their MM/MW just end their marriage by themselves without a push of some kind from their affair partners?

 

Mine did, I guess. We had discussed the possibility of being together full-time, and then bounced around ideas of how that might work (given that we lived in different countries then). We came up with a plan - which required action on both of our parts - and he left his W and moved into a new place with his kids as stage one towards that plan. A few months later, I joined him.

 

But the decision to leave his M, and when, he took without prompting. Well, not from me... There was no ultimatum from me, nor a time line nor any pressure. I had my own issues to deal with and wasn't on his case to sort out his for him! But he had other prompting - from his family, his kids, his colleagues and friends - and of course his counsellor. They were all looking out for him and supporting him and I think that helped him to feel that he wasn't "the bad guy" leaving, but that he was taking the best step for everyone involved.

 

I guess my Dad's push to leave came when the last kid left the house, and he knew he didn't have to stay "for the kids" anymore, and he was free to get on with his life.