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Holiday Planning with a Seperated Person


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[i don't want to further hijack heartbroken's thread, so starting a new one.]

 

Tonight I had a window of opportunity to bring up holiday plans w/ my SM.

 

As you might have read in HB's thread, my guy mentioned very briefly that he was thinking he might need to spend Thanksgiving w/ his W and her family. Myself and the many of you were appropriately mortified at that idea. I'm still not sure how to best handle it, but I've been thinking that I want a definite answer by next week (so I can RSVP for invites) and also deal with any emotional fall out (if there should be any.)

 

Instead of coming at him with a sledgehammer-like ultimatum, I've been intuiting that I'd do better to broach the subject very calmly and in small doses. I want him to know that I don't think it's right for him to spend the holiday with her, especially because he told me 2 months ago he was spending holidays with me. So I've been gathering my thoughts (and still am.)

 

Tonight, he called and said that his W wanted to come visit him tonight, but he told her no. He said he does need to see her to pick up the bills that need to be paid and so forth. She also wants to spend the weekend with him and talk about the M. He's been keeping a lot of distance; spending weekends w/ me. He might see her tomorrow, but told me the weekend will be our time as usual.

 

That seemed like my chance to broach the subject, so I said, "That reminds me, we need to discuss our Thanksgiving plans. You mentioned that she is hoping you'll spend it with her. We should decide what we are going to do."

 

Long story shortened, the first thing he said was "I want to spend the holidays with you," and talked about how excited he is about being with me etc. He also said that it's hard that this is the first year they've not celebrated the holidays after 16 years.

 

I probed to find out if her family knows he moved our not. He said he doesn't know exactly what she is telling them. Her family (who was very close to) doesnt' call him anymore. He thinks that part of her IS trying to cover up their separation. Then I reminded him that while a lot of people can live secret lives, I can't--that's why it's very important to me that we do not continue in the A-dynamic anymore.

 

We didn't reach a final decision tonight (that wasn't my agenda!) But I got the topic rolling. He said that although he will talk to her tomorrow, SHE isn't deciding. He and I are. So he'll bring it up with me again later, which is what I was hoping for as a result of our call.

 

A bigger topic got broached tonight too. I forget how it all came around, but I somehow mentioned how his attending T-day might seem like they are reconciling, not divorcing. He was vehement that they are not, but saw my point. Then he said "but I'm not serving her D papers during the holidays." Then I said, "Of course not! But you said you wanted the separation time to let her adjust. Be careful not to undo 2.5 mos of progress." I forget exactly what he said next, but he said something about maybe being ready to get the papers going in Jan. As you might have read here, I've got a thought that I'd like to see him start the papers in Jan, as I don't want to be in a holding pattern forever.

 

More to come, but I'm glad I seized the moment tonight and got the conversation open.

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Fantastic news. He sounds like he is on board and you handled it beautifully. What she says to her family is her business but his actions and whether he co conspires in making you a secret is your business.

 

Glad to hear you are making good progress.

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Then he said "but I'm not serving her D papers during the holidays."

 

:confused: Why not? He wants her to get her hopes up, to spend the holidays pining for him, uncertain where she stands and whether he's coming back? I think that's just cruel. If he's decided he wants out, why not be upfront and tell her, and get moving on it so that she can move on with her life too, instead of leaving her hanging on by a shred of hope during what seems to be (from what you've said) emotionally significant times for her / them. If someone played me like that, I'd go ballistic!

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That seemed like my chance to broach the subject, so I said, "That reminds me, we need to discuss our Thanksgiving plans. You mentioned that she is hoping you'll spend it with her. We should decide what we are going to do."

 

Long story shortened, the first thing he said was "I want to spend the holidays with you," and talked about how excited he is about being with me etc. He also said that it's hard that this is the first year they've not celebrated the holidays after 16 years.

 

Wild - I know it sounds positive but a few things jumped out at me and I would be remiss for not opining on them. I find it odd that he has this need to spend the holidays with her out of pity? Familiarity? Ease her Pain? For me, if I were him, I would want to spend the Holidays with you. Not her. You represent the future and the W is the past. How is it he can move out but still feels a need to spend the Holidays with her? To me, the choice is easy - you.

 

I probed to find out if her family knows he moved our not. He said he doesn't know exactly what she is telling them. Her family (who was very close to) doesnt' call him anymore. He thinks that part of her IS trying to cover up their separation. Then I reminded him that while a lot of people can live secret lives, I can't--that's why it's very important to me that we do not continue in the A-dynamic anymore.
Beautiful. Stick up for yourself and what you need/want. Nothing wrong with that.

 

We didn't reach a final decision tonight (that wasn't my agenda!) But I got the topic rolling. He said that although he will talk to her tomorrow, SHE isn't deciding. He and I are.
QFT. You remember this. He is deciding. NOT you and him. Only him. It is his decision. And a telling one in my eyes. The fact that he must consider his decision (and maybe is waffling on it) is, alarming to me.

 

A bigger topic got broached tonight too. I forget how it all came around, but I somehow mentioned how his attending T-day might seem like they are reconciling, not divorcing. He was vehement that they are not, but saw my point. Then he said "but I'm not serving her D papers during the holidays." Then I said, "Of course not! But you said you wanted the separation time to let her adjust. Be careful not to undo 2.5 mos of progress." I forget exactly what he said next, but he said something about maybe being ready to get the papers going in Jan. As you might have read here, I've got a thought that I'd like to see him start the papers in Jan, as I don't want to be in a holding pattern forever.
The emotional effect would be the same if he served her with papers or not. He serves them now and he has "ruined" the holidays. He waits and he has still ruined them. She will rightfully believe that he was leading her on/sham. And that might even hurt worse. The only thing this does is give him more time to rethink his decision (if he has made one). Holidays are all about family and she is family. Her family is family. I see a great downside risk for you here.

 

A few observations from me. Not trying to rain on your parade as I think you have taken some smart steps and you have your head around this (for now).

 

Keep us up to date...and best wishes.

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The emotional effect would be the same if he served her with papers or not. He serves them now and he has "ruined" the holidays. He waits and he has still ruined them. She will rightfully believe that he was leading her on/sham. And that might even hurt worse.

 

Yes, that was my point too. If he's split, he's split - the devastation has occurred, and he owes it to her to make that clear so that she can move on. If he's genuinely not decided, he's being dishonest with you.

 

He's taking a coward's way out here. Lying by omission is still lying.

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IfWishesWereHorses

QFT. You remember this. He is deciding. NOT you and him. Only him. It is his decision. And a telling one in my eyes.

 

I agree completely with this. If there were kids I could see him considering it as well as not wanting to serve papers during the holidays. How many one more, Thanksgiving and Christmases will they have together? I'm sure he does want to spend it with you but it also sounds like she isn't completely in the loop. It seems to me that the times you make progress are the times that you put your foot down. You know how he responds to being pushed so you are having to tip toe around him, sacrificing things that are important to you for his feelings.

 

If he does spend Thanksgiving with his W and her family, is that not just perpetuating the idea in everyones mind that they still are a family?

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You know how he responds to being pushed so you are having to tip toe around him, sacrificing things that are important to you for his feelings.

 

that's worrying.

 

If he does spend Thanksgiving with his W and her family, is that not just perpetuating the idea in everyones mind that they still are a family?

 

exactly.

 

and it just makes it worse in the long run when it all comes out, as it will.

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The alarming thing is that she called him and asked him to spend the evening with her... Also asking if he wanted to go away for the weekend...I dont know if i am reading to much into this, but I still think he has really not been upfront with her. Do you think that he DID present the the seperation as only a trial seperation? Sayng he needs time to sort out his feelings/head. Giving her hope that just maybe after a while he will be coming back home? I think men in general are not that brave to just jump out. They seem to want to leave that door cracked just in case they change their mind. So by trying to keep that door cracked they do have to keep some kind of game going at home, to keep her somwhat hooked.. Hense her asking if her wants to come over in the evening, hense thanksgiving with her..In reality he is still unsure which direction he really wants to go. Confusion perhaps, mixed emotions, grieving guilt... Therefore the reason people say they need time to heal, he needs time for himself to really figure out what he wants without all the noise...But that I am sure you will not find out... what he really told her... if he did tell her its a trial... he would be to afraid to admit that to you, for the fear of losing you... sucks!!!:sick: Playing both sides against the middle....

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DealingWDrama

She's fighting for her marriage...be skeptical of everything he tells you and listen to his actions - allow the words to flow in one ear and out the other.

 

As I said in the other post - if he is done, he is done...period. Also, be careful for your own emotions..16 years is a lot of baggage and if his W has a head on her shoulders she knows him and knows how to get him back for good.

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:confused: Why not? He wants her to get her hopes up, to spend the holidays pining for him, uncertain where she stands and whether he's coming back? I think that's just cruel. If he's decided he wants out, why not be upfront and tell her, and get moving on it so that she can move on with her life too, instead of leaving her hanging on by a shred of hope during what seems to be (from what you've said) emotionally significant times for her / them. If someone played me like that, I'd go ballistic!

OW, I'm wired like you in this regard. If someone wants out, then GO. Don't do "me" any favors by staying! My guy knows this is how I feel too.

 

I haven't met his W, who seems like a good person, but I think she is wired a little differently. For one thing, divorce is against her religion and she is never going to agree willingly. I don't know what she thinks about being single and moving on. My hunch is that she is still deep in the denial phase--not close to letting go at all.

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QFT. You remember this. He is deciding. NOT you and him. Only him. It is his decision.

Thank you for the dose of reality. You're right. Although he was very reassuring about saying how WE are deciding, that's not exactly reality, is it? At best, it means that he is going to run his decision by me and hope I'll agree. :rolleyes:

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He isn't helping by pushing the D along. Has he actually told her "separation=us apart and it's only a matter of time before we get the D?" Or has he given her slight hope by the meaning of separation?

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If he does spend Thanksgiving with his W and her family, is that not just perpetuating the idea in everyones mind that they still are a family?

Yes. That was the main point I brought up last night.

 

*ahem*...and while he said to me that "YOU are my partner now, not her," if he spends it with them, then that means I come 2nd still. He moved out at the beginning of September. He said he wanted her to have some time to adjust to the S before he asked for a D. I agreed. But if he spends any of the holidays with her/them then I think it starts their seperation clock over again.

 

Because of the A, we all have a different sense of timing:

 

For me, the clock started back last January when we met.

 

For her, the clock either started in September (or hasn't started YET) even though he "moved out" for the 1st time into a room rental last April.

 

For him, I can't tell what his sense of timing is. It seems to change. Because he keeps saying things like "you and I will have the rest of our lives together," I think his clock is running slow. If he really believes he is committed to me long term, maybe going slow seems justified to him.

 

But I'm a single woman who has already invested 10-mos. I know some of you might say I don't love him if I won't wait forever, but I'm really not wanting to waste prime years of my life. Granted, I chose to be with someone who isn't "ready to go," and reality is that if I want him, then I need to accept that he has undoing work. But if it drags out so long as to seem demoralizing in it's futility, then I'd do better to find someone else. It's that simple, and that difficult.

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The alarming thing is that she called him and asked him to spend the evening with her... Also asking if he wanted to go away for the weekend...I dont know if i am reading to much into this, but I still think he has really not been upfront with her. Do you think that he DID present the the seperation as only a trial seperation? Sayng he needs time to sort out his feelings/head. Giving her hope that just maybe after a while he will be coming back home? I think men in general are not that brave to just jump out. They seem to want to leave that door cracked just in case they change their mind. So by trying to keep that door cracked they do have to keep some kind of game going at home, to keep her somwhat hooked.. Hense her asking if her wants to come over in the evening, hense thanksgiving with her..In reality he is still unsure which direction he really wants to go. Confusion perhaps, mixed emotions, grieving guilt... Therefore the reason people say they need time to heal, he needs time for himself to really figure out what he wants without all the noise...But that I am sure you will not find out... what he really told her... if he did tell her its a trial... he would be to afraid to admit that to you, for the fear of losing you... sucks!!!:sick: Playing both sides against the middle....
Wilsoul this post was for you...so do you think he presented it as a trial seperation? or does it not matter... just wondering if I am off base here
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Do you think that he DID present the the seperation as only a trial seperation? Sayng he needs time to sort out his feelings/head. Giving her hope that just maybe after a while he will be coming back home? <snip for brevity>... if he did tell her its a trial... he would be to afraid to admit that to you, for the fear of losing you... sucks!!!:sick: Playing both sides against the middle....

I'll never know for sure, but I think he's being VAGUE and maybe playing word games with her. I'm sure she thinks it's a trial separation, whether he flat-out called it that or not.

 

All I really do know is this: He hasn't flat-out said "I want a divorce now." Anything less than that leaves it open for both of them.

 

Seems to me that the power an OW has is to either wait for him or to leave him. I can't make decisions based on heresay of what he says they've discussed. I can try to intuit whether he is being honest with me, but I'll never know what was really said or more importantly, what was understood. Their M has problems, so it's fair to assume that they have communication problems! I'm willing to wait for awhile, as long as there is forward progress. But ultimately, I have to make my own decision about it.

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Yes. That was the main point I brought up last night.

 

*ahem*...and while he said to me that "YOU are my partner now, not her," if he spends it with them, then that means I come 2nd still. He moved out at the beginning of September. He said he wanted her to have some time to adjust to the S before he asked for a D. I agreed. But if he spends any of the holidays with her/them then I think it starts their seperation clock over again.

 

Because of the A, we all have a different sense of timing:

 

For me, the clock started back last January when we met.

 

For her, the clock either started in September (or hasn't started YET) even though he "moved out" for the 1st time into a room rental last April.

 

For him, I can't tell what his sense of timing is. It seems to change. Because he keeps saying things like "you and I will have the rest of our lives together," I think his clock is running slow. If he really believes he is committed to me long term, maybe going slow seems justified to him.

 

But I'm a single woman who has already invested 10-mos. I know some of you might say I don't love him if I won't wait forever, but I'm really not wanting to waste prime years of my life. Granted, I chose to be with someone who isn't "ready to go," and reality is that if I want him, then I need to accept that he has undoing work. But if it drags out so long as to seem demoralizing in it's futility, then I'd do better to find someone else. It's that simple, and that difficult.

 

I was thinking of why doesn't he just openly cheat. His wife cannot divorce him. What's the point in hiding it? Here's my thoughts on that question:

 

You stated his W is religious and that religion forbids divorce so I presume she is Catholic. My understanding is that Catholicism accepts divorce only when the spouse commits adultery. This is my understanding. Lets not TJ this with which faith deems what in terms of divorce. If I'm wrong, then my point is worthless. The point is below:

 

Since I personally believe he is hedging his bets, she doesn't know of you or the "depth" of the separation. If she did, per my understanding of Catholicism, she would then have support (Religious) for divorce. Should there be an absolute forbidding of divorce, your MM would simply openly cheat w/o fear of repercussion (divorce). Her religion would forbid it and she would be forced to suffer. Exposure of the A gives her the legal and more importantly religious grounds for divorce. So he hides it. He hedges his bets. He spends the holidays with her and keeps you a secret. If you don't work out, he announces his renewed faith in the M and goes home. (And finds another poor woman ...repeat ad nasuem.)

 

Many presumptions in my post and it may be factual off base. But this is my thinking. And why I think you should be careful. He has zero reason to spend the holidays with her...huge question. Huge red flag.

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I'll never know for sure, but I think he's being VAGUE and maybe playing word games with her. I'm sure she thinks it's a trial separation, whether he flat-out called it that or not.

 

All I really do know is this: He hasn't flat-out said "I want a divorce now." Anything less than that leaves it open for both of them.

 

Seems to me that the power an OW has is to either wait for him or to leave him. I can't make decisions based on heresay of what he says they've discussed. I can try to intuit whether he is being honest with me, but I'll never know what was really said or more importantly, what was understood. Their M has problems, so it's fair to assume that they have communication problems! I'm willing to wait for awhile, as long as there is forward progress. But ultimately, I have to make my own decision about it.

This just sucks this waiting game to see what will really happen. I hate trying to read between the lines...My situation is wierd too...Up and down... even though he has his own place now.. I just always wonder. Mine spends no time with her, but in the back of my mind I always think he presented a trial..Some days i just want to call her, sounds silly I know....:o I guess I do this to protect myself just in case...
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DealingWDrama

When my H and I were separated he fed me the "I need time line..." I gave him an ultimatum - we get divorced now or go to marriage counseling PERIOD - separation is bull **** !!! He moved home that weekend, vowing his love and committment to me...However...

 

After I was finally told about everything in the affair and talked to the OW (two short months ago) I discovered that she didn't know he had moved back home with me back in November. Granted I was under the impression that the affair was over completely when I allowed him to come home - obviously that wasn't the case. She thought he was making plans to divorce me...

 

Think about it - if he can easily lie to his wife of 16 years he can just as easily lie to you for 10 months.

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my guy mentioned very briefly that he was thinking he might need to spend Thanksgiving w/ his W and her family.

 

He also said that it's hard that this is the first year they've not celebrated the holidays after 16 years.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't get it.

 

What reason did he give for thinking he might NEED to spend T-day with his W and her family? What is the NEED there?

 

And the 'it's hard' part...yes, there's 16 years of history, but he wants a divorce. So, just because it's hard does not equal to NEEDing to spend the holiday with her.

 

He hasn't told her he wants a divorce...I'm sure she thinks this is a trial separation. That's the only reason I could imagine she would expect him to spend the holiday with her.

 

Did he say she expects that? Has he discussed it with her?

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i think there is a lot to be said that men are VERY action oriented, so i would put all words aside and see what his actions are.

 

i think how he handles the holidays will be VERY telling in this regard.

 

if i were you, i'd take this chance to sit back, observe, and learn. see what he does....

 

see where he is for the holidays.

 

take care!!!

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I'm sorry, but I don't get it.

 

What reason did he give for thinking he might NEED to spend T-day with his W and her family? What is the NEED there?

 

And the 'it's hard' part...yes, there's 16 years of history, but he wants a divorce. So, just because it's hard does not equal to NEEDing to spend the holiday with her.

 

He hasn't told her he wants a divorce...I'm sure she thinks this is a trial separation. That's the only reason I could imagine she would expect him to spend the holiday with her.

 

Did he say she expects that? Has he discussed it with her?

Thats my point... There is no need unless he is playing both sides.. Then its understandable why he feels he needs to spend the holidays with the wife. He needs to show he is willing to work on the Marriage. If he made it clear he wanted out of the Marriage there woulkd be no expectations of him being there for Holidays or evenings or getaways... Period....
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He hasn't told her he wants a divorce...I'm sure she thinks this is a trial separation. That's the only reason I could imagine she would expect him to spend the holiday with her.

 

Did he say she expects that? Has he discussed it with her?

Norajane, you DO get it. The question of whether this is a true separation or not will be clarified by his decision. He might deceive himself (and me) by trying to frame it as "one last time," or justify that it's cruel to break her heart, but the more I think of this, the more I see it as a defining moment.

 

He has not really discussed it with her yet, other than she had already stated a desire for him to be at T-dinner as usual. Last night, I brought it up with him because it needs to all be decided. He is supposed to talk to her this week, then he and I will have our 2nd discussion.

 

I want to see what he comes back with. Spending too much time analysing this preemptively is draining and I have other things to attend to. However, I do have one nagging question that I'd like your feed back on before I talk to him again:

 

Should I tell him that this might be a dealbreaker for me, or should I just wait and see what he wants to do naturally?

  • I want him to choose to be with me because he wants to, not because he feels like I'm going to leave him. The latter feels like a shallow victory to me.
  • My guess is that if I don't intervene in any way, he will probably present a scenario where he splits the day between us.
  • If he chooses to spend all or part of the day with her, I am going to feel disappointed and betrayed. It will cause me to reevaluate the R, and quite probably factor into me breaking up with him again now or in the near future. My heart breaks to think of it.
  • I don't know if it's better to give him this information so he can factor my strong feelings into the equation, or better to let him reveal his true desire and make my decision on that later.

Thoughts?

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Hmmm, thats a tough one...I guess you need to figure out for yourself what you want...I am planning n.c for me. I cant take the unknowing anymore. Its driving me crazy..I know my guy is trying, but its taking a huge toll on me personally. I want clarity, no wishy washyness. I am tired, I am at a loss here too, it might be best to just wait and see what he says, then go with your gut and express you feelings...

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IfWishesWereHorses

  • I want him to choose to be with me because he wants to, not because he feels like I'm going to leave him. The latter feels like a shallow victory to me.
  • My guess is that if I don't intervene in any way, he will probably present a scenario where he splits the day between us.
  • If he chooses to spend all or part of the day with her, I am going to feel disappointed and betrayed. It will cause me to reevaluate the R, and quite probably factor into me breaking up with him again now or in the near future. My heart breaks to think of it.
  • I don't know if it's better to give him this information so he can factor my strong feelings into the equation, or better to let him reveal his true desire and make my decision on that later.

WS,



 

If you were dating a single man instead of a separated one, right now you would be making plans for the holidays... TOGETHER... with all of the excitement that the planning entails. You have stated that you feel like since you have chosen a now separated man then you'll just have to work with that situation. How fair is that for you to be worrying about how to broach the subject of your expectations instead of enjoying planning special days for the two of you?

 

HE knows that you want to spend the holidays with him, you have made that clear. IME you are right that he will try to split the day between you if it is left up to him. I've been looking at some posts of other OW with SM (ie Mino) and it seems that there is never a defining moment when the R becomes about them as a couple. The OW has been asked to understand for so long that it seems she always has to make excuses (to herself, not others) about why its not a good time for her needs to be put first. If she does, then to the SM she is no longer supporting him (pretending to be OK when her feelings aren't being met). There isn't one bone in my body that believe that YOU would accept so little for a single man.

 

A freind of mine is fond of saying that... you teach people how to love you. Are you not teaching him that you are OK putting his needs first in this R, even when they oppose your own? With that dynamic in place, do you believe there will be a day when it ends?

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Norajane, you DO get it. The question of whether this is a true separation or not will be clarified by his decision. He might deceive himself (and me) by trying to frame it as "one last time," or justify that it's cruel to break her heart, but the more I think of this, the more I see it as a defining moment.

 

He has not really discussed it with her yet, other than she had already stated a desire for him to be at T-dinner as usual. Last night, I brought it up with him because it needs to all be decided. He is supposed to talk to her this week, then he and I will have our 2nd discussion.

 

I want to see what he comes back with. Spending too much time analysing this preemptively is draining and I have other things to attend to. However, I do have one nagging question that I'd like your feed back on before I talk to him again:

 

Should I tell him that this might be a dealbreaker for me, or should I just wait and see what he wants to do naturally?

  • I want him to choose to be with me because he wants to, not because he feels like I'm going to leave him. The latter feels like a shallow victory to me.
  • My guess is that if I don't intervene in any way, he will probably present a scenario where he splits the day between us.
  • If he chooses to spend all or part of the day with her, I am going to feel disappointed and betrayed. It will cause me to reevaluate the R, and quite probably factor into me breaking up with him again now or in the near future. My heart breaks to think of it.
  • I don't know if it's better to give him this information so he can factor my strong feelings into the equation, or better to let him reveal his true desire and make my decision on that later.

Thoughts?

 

Say nothing else. He is an adult and you have made your wishes known.

He has already indicated that you are the future. He has already said he wants to spend Thanksgiving with you.

 

Do nothing and see if he chooses you or chooses his wife. And face it, anytime he is not with you, its because he wants to be with her. And splitting time is hedging bets.

 

Sorry.

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