How much do you think "guilt" plays in a MM

[dreamy1945]

going back his wife? Some men seem to struggle with guilt and spirtual things...do you think more men go back for those reasons than don't?

[jj33]

It really depends in other cases the fantasy of being with the OW was not what he thought it would be.

 

Sometimes people in an A dont think about the real bits of the day to day, particularly the MP who sees it as an oasis from real life. And once it becomes day to day the idea of living day to day without their children without the life they have always known is just not worth it even if they love the OW.

[Lizzie60]

I don't think it's guilt or spiritual reasons.. I think most go back because they just can't stand being away from their kids.. and not being there on a day to day basis...

 

I think that most cheat because they don't have anything for their W..but the kids.. that's another story.. and the financial comfort, friends also play a big part...

 

If they say they go back for their W.. they just miss the 'old slipper comfort' type of relationship.. the 'real' love is long gone.. IMO.

[Owl]

OR...they've just not realized the difference between 'long term love' and the feelings generated by being "in love"...until they're no longer with their wife.

 

Those "in love" feelings are pretty powerful. But don't underestimate the power of long term love either. Its what holds families together, sometimes for decades.

 

Lizzie may feel that there's no love.

 

I think she's mistaken. There usually IS a lot of love. Its just not those same butterfly feelings of mixed love and lust that are there at the beginning of a relationship.

 

He's not going back to a "comfortable slipper".

 

He's going HOME...the the person and place he's invested years, even decades worth of love into.

 

Guilt might play some part of it...true enough.

 

But guilt isn't cohesive enough to be what rebuilds the marriage after infidelity. Love is the only bond strong enough to let that happen.

 

So...if he ping pongs back and forth between you and her over and over...that might be guilt. If he goes back and stays...probably love.

[jwi71]

like JJ above, I think the fantasy quickly sours when confronted with reality. And its really hard to compare X number of years of 24x7 life with a few stolen moments. I think most cases the OW loses because he really isnt interested in leaving. And why should he...he has family in one hand and you in the other. Why spoil that?

 

Your habits are different from the wife's...and he misses the security/routine/predictability of her reactions, mannerisms, voice, etc. Ironically, part of what may have the OW attractive (different) is now part of what drives him away.

 

My .02

[pkn06002]

On another site there was a discussion about the 80/20 rule. Where the wife and family gives MM/MW the 80% of what they need in life, the affair just supplies that 20% they really want.

 

Is that 20% really worth leaving your family (kids) for? Kids are a huge driving factor for staying. The idea of not seeing your kids everyday, especially when they are young, is just something most people can not pull the trigger on.

 

So you live with the 80% you have left, thinking about how good that last 20% was.

 

I know in my case I never planned on leaving my wife for the OW, and I loved her more than anyone, but my child. But obligations to family were burned into me from an early age. Tell you what history of a marriage means little in this decision process. If that history was so strong and meaningful people would not stray in the first place.

 

OWL what you are talking about is not love it is acceptance of your situation. It becomes obligation that you accept and deal with, hoping that you will be happy. If not people stray again.

[Owl]

Pkn...love goes through several stages. Its not always in the exact same state...but that doesn't make it any less intense.

 

Check out the book "The Five Love Languages"...specifically, read chapter 3 for an explanation on the 'stages of love'.

 

What I'm talking about is NOT acceptance. I know the difference.

[precious1357]

going back his wife? Some men seem to struggle with guilt and spirtual things...do you think more men go back for those reasons than don't?

 

From my experience, guilt plays a big part in men going back. I know of a few long term marriages where both parties are miserable but the guilt is overwhelming...those who believe in God and the vows they took, regardless of how unhappy they are, the spiritual guilt takes over and they go back.

[stillafool]

On another site there was a discussion about the 80/20 rule. Where the wife and family gives MM/MW the 80% of what they need in life, the affair just supplies that 20% they really want.

 

Is that 20% really worth leaving your family (kids) for? Kids are a huge driving factor for staying. The idea of not seeing your kids everyday, especially when they are young, is just something most people can not pull the trigger on.

 

So you live with the 80% you have left, thinking about how good that last 20% was.

 

I know in my case I never planned on leaving my wife for the OW, and I loved her more than anyone, but my child. But obligations to family were burned into me from an early age. Tell you what history of a marriage means little in this decision process. If that history was so strong and meaningful people would not stray in the first place.

 

OWL what you are talking about is not love it is acceptance of your situation. It becomes obligation that you accept and deal with, hoping that you will be happy. If not people stray again.

 

So if you didn't have children would you have left your W for the OW?

[precious1357]

I don't think it's guilt or spiritual reasons.. I think most go back because they just can't stand being away from their kids.. and not being there on a day to day basis...

 

I think that most cheat because they don't have anything for their W..but the kids.. that's another story.. and the financial comfort, friends also play a big part...

 

If they say they go back for their W.. they just miss the 'old slipper comfort' type of relationship.. the 'real' love is long gone.. IMO.

 

Good point!

[jwi71]

From my experience, guilt plays a big part in men going back. I know of a few long term marriages where both parties are miserable but the guilt is overwhelming...those who believe in God and the vows they took, regardless of how unhappy they are, the spiritual guilt takes over and they go back.

 

Oh bull. Those who wish to cite religion (adherence to vows) quickly forget said religion when crawling into bed with another. Religion becomes an excuse. A convenience to be used when it suits him/her.

 

The hypocrisy is nauseating.

[pkn06002]

So if you didn't have children would you have left your W for the OW?

 

More then likely yes.

 

But even though I had never intended to get to that point. During the A I very much keep control of my emotions and only let them go so far. But for a month I got careless and lost that control and got emotional involved to the hilt.

 

You want to get a guy to leave (his wife) get him to an emotional level they have never been to or are afraid to go into. If it stays on a physical level or an emotional level they are comfortable with guys will never leave. Because like someone above said why should they.

[pkn06002]

Pkn...love goes through several stages. Its not always in the exact same state...but that doesn't make it any less intense.

 

Check out the book "The Five Love Languages"...specifically, read chapter 3 for an explanation on the 'stages of love'.

 

What I'm talking about is NOT acceptance. I know the difference.

 

Read the book and I just disagree with you.

 

The later stages of "love" are not what I would call "love". I would call those feelings of acceptance, which to me is a HUGE difference. But then again maybe you have hit on that magic state the everyone would like to get too.

[Owl]

I must have, PKN.

 

I just celebrated my 21st anniversary last week. We still have a great marriage. People see us out together, and ask us all the time "how long have you been married?". They usually think we've been married a short time...and are shocked to hear how long its been.

 

I think you and I will have to 'agree to disagree'.

 

You believe its just acceptance...I think that the marriage, and the long time together creates a much stronger bond than just 'comfort'. I think that many people don't realize how strong that bond is UNTIL they are in the situation we've described here

[OWoman]

You want to get a guy to leave (his wife) get him to an emotional level they have never been to or are afraid to go into. If it stays on a physical level or an emotional level they are comfortable with guys will never leave.

 

This resonates with my experience. Both current and past.

[GreenEyedLady]

I think it probably depends on the man.

 

Some men just want to have sex with lots of women and their W.

 

Some men are lacking in the M and look for elsewhere.

 

Some men feel guilt, but I'd bet more of them feel fear.

[frannie]

More then likely yes.

 

But even though I had never intended to get to that point. During the A I very much keep control of my emotions and only let them go so far. But for a month I got careless and lost that control and got emotional involved to the hilt.

 

You want to get a guy to leave (his wife) get him to an emotional level they have never been to or are afraid to go into. If it stays on a physical level or an emotional level they are comfortable with guys will never leave. Because like someone above said why should they.

 

Wow. I'd say you have hit it right on the head there, pkn.

[KismetGirl]

Wow. I'd say you have hit it right on the head there, pkn.

 

More then likely yes.

 

But even though I had never intended to get to that point. During the A I very much keep control of my emotions and only let them go so far. But for a month I got careless and lost that control and got emotional involved to the hilt.

 

You want to get a guy to leave (his wife) get him to an emotional level they have never been to or are afraid to go into. If it stays on a physical level or an emotional level they are comfortable with guys will never leave. Because like someone above said why should they.

 

 

now, out of my own curiousity, what emotional level do you mean by that? Im not sure this statement is very clear to me and so im curious to know what you meannt by it, if you're capable of putting it into words :-) some things are hard to explain....Obviously just feeling strongly about another women is not an emotional level enough to leave the wife and stability, so what exactly is this ambigious "special" emotional level that will give them the push to make a change in their lives? Im not sure it exists. I think its more a certain circumstance. The kids have grown up, the wife has kicked him out and made the decision for him, etc. Seems to me , while kids, house, money , and wife all still want him around, he's not going anymore, no mattre how much he feels about this other woman....

[DealingWDrama]

The guilt is what made my H finally break down and tell me the truth about the A. He felt guilty because of stepping out of our marriage in the first place. He, at first, believed he had strong feelings for the OW - that "in love" feeling you feel when you first start a relationship and the attraction is really strong...or the 20% he wasn't getting from me at home. Over time, he realize how stupid he was for stepping out on our marriage and risking everything we have together for 20% ...

 

I believe if a man is really done with his marriage, he will leave whether there is another woman or not.

 

Love is a choice...it is something you give away not something you receive. Once a person chooses to give their love away and show love to another person and that person in turn shows them love - magic happens! It's better than the butterflies that start at the beginning of a relationship.

[pkn06002]

KismetGirl,

Let me see if I can write down what I am suggesting.

 

As a guy you are always taught to control your emotions and you carry that along to all the relationships you have. So it becomes easy to keep a relationship at a comfortable level where you can just keep it about sex or at a level where you love the person but you are not willing to destroy your main relationship for that person. Men can roll along like this forever, out of all the woman I have ever been involved with most of them fit in the above description. Yes I cared/loved a lot of them but I never risked that emotional investment that could get me hurt.

 

Then there are the 3 woman in my life where I have dropped that guard and became truly transparent to them emotionally. I felt safe enough to share anything and everything with them about how I felt. Holding nothing back and risking my emotions for that feeling of utter love you get from doing so. The downside is the 3 times I have done that I have gotten hurt because I became the vulnerable.

 

The relationship that ended with the OW fit that last description. For 3 years I controlled my emotions and yes I loved her but I never planned on leaving my wife for her (so I was way past the butterflies love). But then she was going to walk away because she hated the fact we went our separate ways after every time we meet. Plus she has kids and for them she felt the need to try to fix things in her marriage. That caused me to write an e-mail to her that layed my feelings on the table and she came back. But that broke the damn and I became emotionally invested to the point where I was willing to leave my family for her.

 

Does that make sense? It all comes down to how much you control your emotions and how much you let in. Up to a point most guys can just walk away no problem, but there is a threshold in each of us that once crossed opens the flood gates and allows for every possibility. I have friends I have recently been talking to about this very subject. They are all wondering why there have been woman in their lives they just cannot forget vs. others they can just walk away from. It is easy they became emotionally invested, they gave love to get it back open and honestly.

 

Now here is the kicker though, not one of those friends would say their wife (mine included) falls into that last category. There is a comfort level from the long term relationship but not that open and honest emotional vulnerability. I know for me personally it has a lot to do with if the person accepts me for who I am, unconditionally. That unconditional acceptance is not something you can create it is either or not from the beginning.

[jj33]

KG that is exactly why he doesnt talk to you abuot emotions or anything because he is hiding. What I think PK means is you need to get him to break through that wall.

 

When xMMM pushed through that wall with me he was incredibly frightened and upset and he ran for the hills. I cant feel this way I cant be in love with you I cant I cant this is wrong (yeah an A is fine but preferring spending time with me to spending time with your family is wrong) and then he kept coming back because it was deep down what he wanted. I was like a ping pong ball for the last few months. But I finally put an end to it. I think that is why he is still stuck on me. He never crashed through that wall of hiding his emotions before and he likes it. He fears it and what it means in terms of hte end of life as he has always known it, but he likes it.

[pkn06002]

KG that is exactly why he doesnt talk to you abuot emotions or anything because he is hiding. What I think PK means is you need to get him to break through that wall.

 

When xMMM pushed through that wall with me he was incredibly frightened and upset and he ran for the hills. I cant feel this way I cant be in love with you I cant I cant this is wrong (yeah an A is fine but preferring spending time with me to spending time with your family is wrong) and then he kept coming back because it was deep down what he wanted. I was like a ping pong ball for the last few months. But I finally put an end to it. I think that is why he is still stuck on me. He never crashed through that wall of hiding his emotions before and he likes it. He fears it and what it means in terms of hte end of life as he has always known it, but he likes it.

 

Yes this is the idea I am talking about. It is both a wonderful and frightening feeling for man.

[KismetGirl]

Yes this is the idea I am talking about. It is both a wonderful and frightening feeling for man.

 

 

 

This is getting very interesting....Ive always found delving into the male psyche particularly difficult. Men are so simple...and yet....

 

Now, HOW does a person go about "breaking through that emotional wall"????

 

This is my biggest problem with MM. I know he has feelings there, but he and I bottle it up, for different reasons, I think. I fear losing him if I say the wrong thing, and he , I think, fears admitting to feelings that will only further complicate the fact that he feels guilty for cheating in the first place and doesn't want to leave his kids, and I feel admitting for any feelings towards me would just make it that much more difficult for him.

 

in the end, I want him to only leave his marriage because HE wants to leave, not BECAUSE of me, BUT I feel like it isn't fair that he won't even acknowledge the fact that there is something amiss in his life to prompt him to keep coming back to me. i am the only woman he has cheated on his wife with, ever. This discord began only 2 years into his marriage, way too early for it to be simply a "low" in the marriage. This is going on four years now. before we hooked up he readily admitted , with perhaps a touch of lament , that "[insert wife's name here] is a great woman, a really great mother , a great mom, but, but, I don't know, there just isn't any spark between us. i married her because she felt comfortable, she felt like home"

He seemed to be justifying to me why he was in this relationship, when to be honest, I had never asked him about it and there was nothing going on between us at the time. It's as if he was convincing himself of reasons why he married her and why he should stay, and none of those reasons entailed being in love with her. I would feel pretty horrid if the best my husband could say about his feelings towards me were that I was "comfortable" and that I made a good mother....

 

I guess Im wondering, HOW do you approach a man to possibly "break through" this emotional wall? Whether or not it ends up in his leaving his wife is entirely separate. I think it isn't fair to anyone - himself, his wife, his kids, or to me, to keep his feelings in a little box buried in the back of his head just because they might be inconvenient and disrupt the balance of life as he knows it to be right now......or am I just crazy to think that in 20 years from now he'll be more miserable, when his kids are grown and gone? Right now they are all little, he and his wife , Im sure, spend most of their focus on the children so they dont NEED to address or focus with each other that something is amiss in their own relationship . In fact, during our year of NC he said that they were supposed to "address things wrong in the relationship" and STILL this is going on. I feel like that is easy to do when all your focus is on money and kids and that sort of stress.

 

It's all so confusing, but this trhread is providing my an insight I haven't seen elsewhere, and one I was hoping for , from the other MM's that don't HATE their wives and are other content with the stability of life at the moment, but still know they are missing that bit of life. The whole 80/20 argument I've heard before seems like total bollocks and a huge cop-out to me, taken from psychobabble self-help books to make people feel better that their marriage will never be all they wanted it to be so they should find other ways to settle for it. Fine, that works for some, but there IS possible a relationship that is 100%, and that you don't have to striggle to choose between the 80% stability, comfort, and the 20% personal happiness.

 

Or am I crazy to think so?

[jj33]

KG havent you heard people say that OWs fill in the gaps? That is what it is. Its the gaps its not that the marriage is all bad. You may think its psychobabble but you are not married with children and dont have a marriage on the line. Easy to say when you are single that its a cop out. But HES the one who has to feel his situation is so bad he would prefer to leave.

 

You cant make someone go through that process, either they do or they dont. But opening up discussions about his feelings for you is one step. It sounds however like he has had that discussion with you and is saying that he cant give you what you want. I hate to say it, but it sounds like for now at least he has made his stand.

 

You could bring it up with him again tell him you love him and that its hard for you to see so little of him. But again I think and I dont say this harshly that the talk he had with you a few weeks ago was him telling you what you wanted to know.

 

The only way to instigate change is to walk away. Doing what you have been doing for 4 years isnt going to change anything. He has it all. Why should he change things?

[pkn06002]

Here is the thing with you in the picture it will NEVER be about leaving for himself. If he leaves it will be for you, which will add yet another layer of guilt on him. If the his relationship with his kids sours it will be placed at your feet.

 

Your MM seems to know that emotional level he is comfortable with, it takes great trust and love to want to break through the barrier.

 

Your MM sounds a whole like me and I keep my emotions in check as well because I knew the affair would end at some point. But I slipped up and crossed it, knowing better. That emotional barrier once crossed makes you want to play for keeps and your MM seems to know he can't make that choice. It has to be his choice to move through to the next emotional level. He has to want to trust you enough and love you enough to want to make that emotional bond. You have to be willing to reciprocate as well. Warning it does setup a feedback loop that feels wonderful but if you crash it hurts like you would not believe.

 

I know both sides of this coin and recently have gone through both recently and understand. Your relationship with him has meet that barrier where you move into playing for keeps or you end it. You walking away may get him to want to cross the barrier, but if you get him to do it you better be willing to accept what you are asking for. Because if he does it you will have his emotions in your hands. If you misuse that power his feelings for you will go from ultimate love to unbelievable hate like you have never seen.