It's all so futile and I feel so pahtetically weak

[KismetGirl]

I really do. I've spent my ENTIRE weekend layng around my apartment in a depressive funk, only leaving when I had to go work at the hospital saturday morning. I have an exam in a week that I haven't even begun to be ready for, I have a legal matter Im trying to deal with, I have tons of things to do and I can't focus on anything. All I've thought about all weekend was the fact that MM was supposed to return my call friday afternoon and forgot to do it, or that I didn't get to see him this past week because of whatever. I've been obsesively imagining things I should say to him next time he tries to come over, to the point where I've been in near tears for two days.I want to tell him that he's a selfish assh*le for not finding half and hour to come say hello when all his offices are within a 15 minute drive of where I live. He says he was super busy at work this week because he was out sick tow days and then there were some medical emergiencies with the patients that took up alot of time because he has to meet with all their families, but in my mind, if he really wanted to see me, he'd just say there was traffic on his way home and use that as an excuse to see me for even 20 measly minutes, but to him, he doesnt understand why that would upset me. I will salvage even 20 minutes out of my busy day if it means seeing him, and he can't fathom doing this. Everytime I see anything that has to do with family, whether its a commercial on TV with a family buying crap at Walmart, to this wedding that I have to drag myself to in an hour today, reminds me of him at home with his family over the weekend while I sit here miserable. My friends and family don't even know what to say to me anymore. They all know about my situation and wish I could just stop it because they see how unhappy I am so often.

 

I want to scream and yell, I want to pound on him with my fists and cry and ask him why he's doing this to me, thouhg the funny part is tht Im not sure he has any clue what he really is doing to me.

He avoids all talk about anything involving emotion , or feelings. He says what sthe point of discussing them when I say that it won't make a difference to me how he feels, which is a lie, it does matter to me what he feels I just act like it doesn't because I always put up that "strong" front, but in reality when it comes to him I am weak. But I so desperately want to know.....even if he just told me, fine, he's just using me for sex. At least I know where I stand, so I can try to seperate myself mentally. I'll stop remembering his birthday. I'll stop being affectionate. I'll stop cuddling and hugging. I'll f**k him and send him out the door, if that's what he wants, but I just don't want to feel confused anymore. When he comes over and acts so affectionate and kissy and loving, but then doesn't understand why I get upset if he doesn't call me back when he says he will, it effs with my head. I've had friends-with-ebenfits before where it was clearly defined from day one that neither of us wanted a relationship wit the other one nor cared about the other one, and it was strictly about sex, and I was able to compartamentalize in my head and sepearate myslf. With MM, I feel so confused. He acts like he has feelings for me, but can't talk about them. His guilt makes him intermittently act like a sh*thead.

It's obviously a different situation than either of us is used to, but his emotional retardedness is really getting to me. I don't know how much longer I can handle not knowing how he feels, no matter what the answer is. It's becoming obsessive to the point where it interferes with my work and school because its all I can think about.

 

How do I approach him? How do you ask a man in such a delicate situation where he is already terrible about discussing emotions, how he feels about me? Any men out there can give some insight into how best to approach him? I feel like I need to know, whether his answer is "yes I love you" or "ok, im just using you for sex". Neither answer will stop the A right now because I dont know that Im ready for it to end completely, but the answer I get WILL affect how I act towards him. I'll stop asking him to hang out with me in a social environment, i'll stop being affectionate, i'll stop telling him i want more time, if this is all about sex. If that's what it's about, that's how I'll act. I'll be indifferent, I'll be cold, no matter what I wish would really be the case. It would be better than the mentally, emotionally confusing hell i go through every day now. I know I asked once on anotehr thread if I should tell MM how I've been feeling, but most people seemed to think that it was better off not knowing. I'm not so sure I can handle not knowing anymore....

 

Thoughts?

[jj33]

Kismet this is not what you want to hear but actions speak louder than words.

 

This man is letting you down again and again. He CANT or WONT give you what you want. Say whatever you want to him. It doesnt matter. It wont scare him away.

 

But the issue is what are you getting? Whatever it is it is not enough for you and he is not going to give you more.

 

Keeping it all inside isnt great for you so you might as well tell him

 

But expecting the intimacy and attention and time that you seek from him is a losing game - youd as soon try to get blood from a stone.

 

I used to go through that with MM and I would get upset and tell him I couldnt see him anymore if he didnt have more to give and eventually he would worm his way back in. its just part of it.

 

Until finally I had had enough. Thats why when he asked me recently if i wanted to try again I could say no. Because a year after we broke up I had no reason to believe anything had changed. And I have no desire to go back to accepting less than I want out of a relationship.

 

You will have to come to that point yourself. Until you do it is extremely painful. If you tell him how upset you are he will likely make more of an effort for a day a week or two if he can manage it and then things will go back to the same old thing.

 

But forgetting to call you for 3 days not even a text - bin him. You dont need this nonesense. Sweetie when someone "forgets" to call you for 3 days - you dont need to ask them how they feel about you unless you are looking for pretty lies to keep yourself in it.

 

At a minimum walk away for awhile then if you really cant take it you can always go back but there have to be consequences to "forgetting" you. Otherwise you just invite more of the same behaviour.

[Dominique]

Kismet...

 

Sweetpea...

 

You are too intelligent, too thoughtful, too ambitious in heart and mind to waste time in this kind of torment...

 

You know the old saying, that when you "have to ask"...you already have your answer.

 

His actions are his answer to you. Remember:

 

Where there is no respect, there is no love or no chance of love. Of course he could have found the time to call you, if nothing else, and when a man respects a woman he respects her feelings. When this respect blossoms it becomes love.

 

No, you do not want a situation where you "f**k him" and then he leaves. You know that is not you. Make sure that is never you.

 

Do not be easy. Do not be a pushover. And do not waste these precious Fall weekends.

 

You want him to sit up and take notice? You will read it a million times here: you disappear. When you put your foot down and say This does not work for me , watch how he responds. It is a win win situation. You retain your dignity, his follow up actions will tell you "the truth".

 

You know in your state of mind you are going where it only gets worse and then you will be trying to get through an impossible NC a year into this...So stop.

 

I say that the minute you lose your old "self" in these things is time to back up and take charge. Yes, we lose our heads in love. But we may not lose our "selves".

 

I have not been an OW but I have been in hot-cold, mind-wracking situations like yours. The only thing that worked was pulling away verrrry cooly, almost non chalantly, and keeping communication to a minimum.

 

Which reminds me: Next time he calls? Wait a week or so to return the call, or email. Let a few of them "slip by". Re take the "upper" hand. Fight fire with fire when need be. You will be very glad you did.

 

DOM

[Ronni_W]

...and cry and ask him why he's doing this to me,

Hugs, Kismet.

I totally agree with you -- whatever he is consciously, knowingly, willingly doing TO you, to facilitate your negative feelings, is on him. 100% he is responsible for that.

But then there is the other part -- all the stuff that YOU are doing to you, including keeping yourself in harm's way and allowing crappy stuff to be done to you. That's the part for which I am sending Comfort, Courage and Strength.

 

Hope you are feeling better...or soon will be. In the meantime, be kind to yourself and...best get on with some of that studying you have to do, yes?

[SerenityX2]

Kismet, I don't come by here very often anymore and post even less,(I ge bored working on school stuff and I'd like to try to help people so sometimes I'll still read though it mostly breaks my heart) but you seem to be hitting your head on a brick wall and can't seem to see clear that insanity begets more insanity.

 

You know the answers deep in your heart, and you're kidding yourself if you think that if he tells you that it's just a FWB kinda thing you'll be able to pull back and act all "cool". Your posts belie that positon. Deep down your posts are screaming b/c you are intelligent, beautiful, on the fast tract for a MD etc...HE should see all this and come running to you...and b/c he lacks this "spark" with his W it's just a matter of time before all those dreams come true, you are sending yourself higher and higher with these fantasies and it will become an even harder landing when you eventually fall.

 

He's given you nothing to say he feels deeper for you. It's true, if a guy wants you he will move heaven and earth to be there. Blowing you off for 3 days is inexcusable for even a single guy that should be your guage for "walking away" behavior. One of the posters said that even if he started doing what you wanted for awhile he will go back to past behavior b/c he didn't come to this conclusion of giving you more time on his own, you will have forced it.

 

I too have never been an OW but have been in crummy r'ships. It was not until I said ENOUGH! and focused on myself and became happy being with "me" that I truly evolved to true peace, contentment and happiness. If this continues, you have no way of knowing when or if he will pull the plug...each day you get deeper and deeper. What if when you go to study for the MCAT and he ends it then? You have the control now to walk away and take back your power that you've so freely given him. He is doing nothing to you that you are not allowing to happen to yourself. You are allowing HIM to set your moods whether it's a good day or bad one and that's a deep pit to sink into.

 

The point that I'm making is although I am happily married now, and share an excitement, passion and commitment that I couldn't have even dreamed of the level. It's fused with a peace and easiness. It never has that 'what is he thinking' component, nor should any healthy r'ship. You should be able to ask your partner what he or she is thinking and never play mind games, otherwise a person is kidding themselves that the r'ship will survive long term.

 

I had to find myself though first. I had to figure out why guys just saw me for my "face" etc.. and not my heart. Until I set boundaries that were non negotiables did I find a guy that matched and exceeded what I wanted. But I had to be in a healthy place MYSELF first and learn to love me and be with me alone before I could hope to become part of a healthy r'ship. Same with my husband, he had to be on his own for awhile (both of us had bad divorces, but since they're over decades ago I'd hardly be classed as BW)

 

I realize you want to just "find someone" else to take this one's place in your heart, but it won't happen when you are tethered to MM's heart, it will keep you in a state of "what if"...perpetually..and you'll never reach that healthy point being okay on your own without "NEEDING" to have someone to love. And trust me, I understand when you say you are too sexual of a woman etc... I too have a higher than average passion running through me, but I am so glad I waited and went through the "aloneless" to be able to find this level of happiness. People cannot just jump from one r'ship to another it's just not realistic nor healthy for the long term.

 

When you are alone for awhile you'll make your list of what you expect and don't back down. If a person said they will call they should, or walk away. If a guy truly loves you he will call, nothing will stand in his way. The toughest lesson I learned is love is really simple and easy for the most part. If you are struggling, or crying or it's causing more heartache than uplifting you...WALK AWAY, it will destroy your soul bit by bit maybe so subtletly that you don't even realize it till it's almost too late. The other point is get to be okay even if love doesn't come your way. Happiness comes from within it is not built on someone else.

 

I pray you find the strength to end this for your own sanity. It seems impossible right now, but doing without sex isn't so horrible. It's far worse to lose your self respect and yourself in the process when you're being used. And regardless if he has feelings for you, he is using you for his means, he proves that over and over again...and that is not a good guy.

 

Peace

[Lizzie60]

I know exactly how you feel.. btdt... a looong time ago.

 

To be brutally honest with you.. I think this man will tell you exactly what HE thinks you want to hear in order to keep you around.

 

Talking about your true feelings with a MM is like talking to a wall.. when they don't want to hear anything about it.

 

He will never say that he's just using you for sex.. never.. he knows he can't say that.. he's not stupid.

 

Let's pretend for one minute that he tells you he's only using you for sex.. do you honestly think that you can go on with him in a 'detached' cold indifferent way. I don't think so..

 

I think you're way too in love with this guy..

 

My only advice.. if, being the OW is OK with you.. and you don't need more then it's OK.. but from what I read here.. it makes your life miserable then it's not OK.. you need to move on.. try everything possible to forget about him.. you'll never have more.. IMO...

 

Like you say.. I'm sure he has no clue how miserable you feel.. and it's no big deal for him for not calling, etc.. because he's not as emotionally involved.. and he's got so much going around, work, family, personal life... that he has no time to think about you as much as you think about him .. really.. and I know it's not fair and it sucks..

[blinded]

((Kismet))

 

I know how you feel. I was going crazy for a while always wondering when he'd contact me, waiting for him, and constantly checking my emails and phone. I came here and got some great advice. I waited a few days before even contacting him again. I acted like he's not important in my life even though it killed me. He noticed the change and paid more attention.

 

Then we had the 'talk'. I asked him straight out what his expectations were and he told me. In turn, he asked my views and I told him. Like you, if he wanted one thing or another I just wanted to know. Luckily, we are both on the same page.

 

Try and remember that he is a MM. He is not yours. He has made a lifetime commitment to someone else. Don't let his actions when he is with you cloud your judgement of the big picture. You don't know what goes on when he's not w/you.

 

Always be on your guard w/him until he has proven himself. You need to think like him and think of #1--yourself!

[norajane]

You're so miserable because you have made him your #1 priority in your life, whereas you are not his priority - his family and his work are. You are the hour or two per week in his life where he gets to feel like superman. If you meant more to him than that, you'd know.

 

I'm sorry you're so unhappy, but PLEASE take that as a huge flashing red sign telling you this relationship is so wrong for you and you need to work yourself up to getting out of it. It will NOT get better no matter what you ask him or what he says. The truth is in the place you hold in his life vs. the place he holds in yours.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Like you say.. I'm sure he has no clue how miserable you feel..

 

I disagree with Lizzie, I think he definately has a clue and that is why he "forgot" to call or come by. How many times would you forget to drop by someone whom you love's place??? You might forget toothpaste at the grocery store but even when my daughter forgets to call it's because she's avoiding something.

[torranceshipman]

Hey Kismet,

He doesn't want to talk about emotional stuff with you, because he goes to you for some fun-so when you start putting any type of demand on him, he wont want to see you, as it isn't fun anymore.

 

He wont tell you he loves you and is emotionally involved, cause his actions have already shown he isnt. I mean, ignoring you for ages? Living 15 minutes up the road from you but never coming to see you? Cmon. He was after sex and a bit of fantasy escape from real life-so if you ask him to be honest about his feelings, he wont want to answer. And if you do push him to be honest, if he has any feelings he'll at least try to find the softest way possible of saying the truth-ie he only wants some fun.

 

If you pretend you're ok with 'fwb' you'll just get so hurt, because you're accepting a situation where you know the guy only wants sex, and doesnt value any of the other great things about you, bt you give it to him anyway, whichll make you feel like you're totally devaluing yourself. A true 'fwb' in my mind is a great friend who you love and trust, that you have chemistry with but arent 'in love' with - that you have equal feelings for - that'd be the only fwb that would work respectfully in my mind.

 

You sound like a lovely person with a lot to give and this loser is not a nice person. Hes a liar and a user who cheats on his family, so leave him in his miserable dishonest life, and go find an equal-someone a few notches higher on the evolutionary chain than this stupid MM, who will be clever enough to appreciate all the great things about you.

[jj33]

Hey Kismet,

He doesn't want to talk about emotional stuff with you, because he goes to you for some fun-so when you start putting any type of demand on him, he wont want to see you, as it isn't fun anymore.

 

He wont tell you he loves you and is emotionally involved, cause his actions have already shown he isnt. I mean, ignoring you for ages? Living 15 minutes up the road from you but never coming to see you? Cmon. He was after sex and a bit of fantasy escape from real life-so if you ask him to be honest about his feelings, he wont want to answer. And if you do push him to be honest, if he has any feelings he'll at least try to find the softest way possible of saying the truth-ie he only wants some fun.

 

If you pretend you're ok with 'fwb' you'll just get so hurt, because you're accepting a situation where you know the guy only wants sex, and doesnt value any of the other great things about you, bt you give it to him anyway, whichll make you feel like you're totally devaluing yourself. A true 'fwb' in my mind is a great friend who you love and trust, that you have chemistry with but arent 'in love' with - that you have equal feelings for - that'd be the only fwb that would work respectfully in my mind.

 

You sound like a lovely person with a lot to give and this loser is not a nice person. Hes a liar and a user who cheats on his family, so leave him in his miserable dishonest life, and go find an equal-someone a few notches higher on the evolutionary chain than this stupid MM, who will be clever enough to appreciate all the great things about you.

 

Torrance you put that so well and Kismet its so clearly NOT what you want. You dont want to be FWB and to do that just to keep him in your life is just going to hurt you more. I understand that sometimes you know a situation is a certain way but sometimes we are not ready to accept it. And so we hang on until we are ready to face it for what it is.

 

I dont think its as simple as he is using you for sex. Of course he knows how you feel - you are affectionate you do ask him for more time. You do get upset when he doesnt call.

 

And obviously he likes that or he wouldnt stick around. If all he wanted was sex he wouldnt be with you. You remind me of myself that way you are not someone that anyone would choose for a simple no strings relationship because that is not you at least not with him.

 

And therein lies the problem. He is attracted to your mind you humour etc etc but the fact is that it is an oasis a respite from his real life. It is not his primary life it is not going to replace it. His behaviour is not the behavior of a man who is going to leave his wife.

 

And by not promising you anything he is being kinder. He is not feeding you the loads of nonsense that you read about on here. He is being honest with you such as it is. He obviously enjoys your company etc but its not going further in his mind. It is ancillary to his real life. Its not the Romeo and Juliet scenario - if only... because he has a family that he loves. Sure maybe if he met you first things would be different but he didnt.

 

That being said, are you doing the right thing for yourself by staying in it knowing that doing the same thing (hanging on) is not going to produce a different result).

 

I know its difficult but you owe it to yourself to move on. If he cant live without you, he will come after you. If he can you will have taken the first step to getting your life back.

[KismetGirl]

Kismet this is not what you want to hear but actions speak louder than words.

 

This man is letting you down again and again. He CANT or WONT give you what you want. Say whatever you want to him. It doesnt matter. It wont scare him away.

 

But the issue is what are you getting? Whatever it is it is not enough for you and he is not going to give you more.

 

Keeping it all inside isnt great for you so you might as well tell him

 

But expecting the intimacy and attention and time that you seek from him is a losing game - youd as soon try to get blood from a stone.

 

I used to go through that with MM and I would get upset and tell him I couldnt see him anymore if he didnt have more to give and eventually he would worm his way back in. its just part of it.

 

Until finally I had had enough. Thats why when he asked me recently if i wanted to try again I could say no. Because a year after we broke up I had no reason to believe anything had changed. And I have no desire to go back to accepting less than I want out of a relationship.

 

You will have to come to that point yourself. Until you do it is extremely painful. If you tell him how upset you are he will likely make more of an effort for a day a week or two if he can manage it and then things will go back to the same old thing.

 

But forgetting to call you for 3 days not even a text - bin him. You dont need this nonesense. Sweetie when someone "forgets" to call you for 3 days - you dont need to ask them how they feel about you unless you are looking for pretty lies to keep yourself in it.

 

At a minimum walk away for awhile then if you really cant take it you can always go back but there have to be consequences to "forgetting" you. Otherwise you just invite more of the same behaviour.

 

JJ

 

Thanks, somehow all your posts seem to help me actully think logically for at least a moment. But you're right, I shoudl tell him, just to get it out. Just not sure how to say it, I guess. He's asked me questions on occasion and I have probably been as bad at answering them as he is, but I do it because ....I don't know, I get nervous. He's not quite as forward as I am, but it seems sometimes he wants to know how exactly I view my place in this "relationship".

 

I did get an email from him Monday night telling me "Hello gorgeous, so sorry I have to cancel on you tomorrow but Ive been sick all weekend and won't be going in to work for the next day or two. I'll call you later in the week." Fair enough, he can't visit me if he's home sick, he lives over an hour away from me, he can really only see me on days he goes to work. So, he gets in touch on wed. Told me he'd try to come by Thursday, but then sent me a text Thursday morning to apologize for having to flake out on me again because of a work-related thing. Then friday was the day that he told me he'd ring me back on his way home and never did. Am I being crazy or a silly over-zealous woman to think that he should have found 20 minutes to sneak away and see me? He does come by at least once a week usually, but on a week when he hasn't seen me all week, I just don't see how hard it is to get home half an hour later than he normally would and just tell his wife he got stuck in traffic. I know he's paranoid about getting caught.....I don't know. Friday is "family fun night" at his house, this new thing his wife decided they should do with the kids, and I guess he doesn't want that guilty feeling fresh on his face when he goes home that evening. There I go, making excuses again.....

 

I do deserve better. Im so mad right now, but Im afraid that when he calls me to come by sometime this week, I'll just give in. So how should I approach this, then?

 

Sit him on the couch when he comes in and instead of letting him kiss me look him in the face and ask him if he considers me to be a friend? Assuming he says yes, on some level, then to say that then while I know Im neither his girlfrind nor his wife, that i still deserve and need more out of this than Im getting, and that I dont think its asking so much for him to make it a point to call me when he says he will , and that he needs to find a way to see me AT LEAST the once a week I expect, or else this just isn't fair to me or working for me? That this situation is not just about making him happy when it's convenient for him? That sometimes I just need to see him for a few minutes because he's one of the only people I know that despite what a ****ty day I've had can make me feel calm and at peace just by kissing me and hugging me?

 

I feel like just blurting out "Im in love with you more than I have ever been with any man I've ever met" might be....awkward. And better left for another time when hopefully at least ONE day I'll have him for more than just an hour.

[KismetGirl]

Kismet...

 

Sweetpea...

 

You are too intelligent, too thoughtful, too ambitious in heart and mind to waste time in this kind of torment...

 

You know the old saying, that when you "have to ask"...you already have your answer.

 

His actions are his answer to you. Remember:

 

Where there is no respect, there is no love or no chance of love. Of course he could have found the time to call you, if nothing else, and when a man respects a woman he respects her feelings. When this respect blossoms it becomes love.

 

No, you do not want a situation where you "f**k him" and then he leaves. You know that is not you. Make sure that is never you.

 

Do not be easy. Do not be a pushover. And do not waste these precious Fall weekends.

 

You want him to sit up and take notice? You will read it a million times here: you disappear. When you put your foot down and say This does not work for me , watch how he responds. It is a win win situation. You retain your dignity, his follow up actions will tell you "the truth".

 

You know in your state of mind you are going where it only gets worse and then you will be trying to get through an impossible NC a year into this...So stop.

 

I say that the minute you lose your old "self" in these things is time to back up and take charge. Yes, we lose our heads in love. But we may not lose our "selves".

 

I have not been an OW but I have been in hot-cold, mind-wracking situations like yours. The only thing that worked was pulling away verrrry cooly, almost non chalantly, and keeping communication to a minimum.

 

Which reminds me: Next time he calls? Wait a week or so to return the call, or email. Let a few of them "slip by". Re take the "upper" hand. Fight fire with fire when need be. You will be very glad you did.

 

DOM

 

 

You are very right. i shoudln't call him first, nor respond right away to his messages. When I ignore HIM for several days he will always get in touch with me and frantically ask if everything is ok. I just have a tough time not speaking to him. Maybe I'll try to not respond to his texts for a couple of weeks, but it is going to be massively difficult. It's like he's some drug, and if I don't get my fix, I start going through massive withdrawal, practially get the bloody shakes.

 

The only thing about the whole "bluff" about NC in hopes that he'll realize what he's missing.....if I ask him for it, he will respect it and not contact me, Im pretty sure. We did not speak for a year following the birth of his second child. As soon as I re-initated contact after that year, he came back on full force. Sometimes he's so good about it, calling when he says he will, coming by when he says he will, keeping his word, and then he goes through phases where he flakes out on me alot. I suspect it has to do with his little "guilt" phases....when he's feeling particularly guilty about the A he'll tend to inadvertently become a bit of a shmuck. He's admitted to me that he doesn't like to lie and that I am a big source of conflict for him. He'll never tell me WHY he has continued to do this four years. He just gives lame answers that are easy to say (eg- you're beautiful and cute and funny and intelligent and sexy as hell, etc etc...all superficial things, he cant' just say "I care for you".), but he will say that some days he just feels horrid about all the sneaking around and he doesn't want to take it out on me so he'll end up not seeing me that day. He's always had these guilt fits. He hasn't cheated on his wife with anyone but me in the 7 years they've been married. I don't know how to respond to that. That's why I tell myself, it can't JUST be about sex, or why put himself through the emotional tumult and sneaking around and etc? Me and him put ourselves through different kinds of emotional dire straights, so I tell myself, if I continue to do it despite all that BECAUSE of how I feel about him, surely he must have similiar feelings if he puts himself through that to keep seeing me? Unless sex really is that important to him in an of itself. I mean, I know Im good in the sack, but that can't be the only reason....we didn't even have sex for a long time, was just kissing and fooling around for a long time, so it must be SOMETHING beyond just sex...right? or at least I tell myself, i guess. it would still be nice to KNOW for sure though...

[KismetGirl]

Hugs, Kismet.

I totally agree with you -- whatever he is consciously, knowingly, willingly doing TO you, to facilitate your negative feelings, is on him. 100% he is responsible for that.

But then there is the other part -- all the stuff that YOU are doing to you, including keeping yourself in harm's way and allowing crappy stuff to be done to you. That's the part for which I am sending Comfort, Courage and Strength.

 

Hope you are feeling better...or soon will be. In the meantime, be kind to yourself and...best get on with some of that studying you have to do, yes?

 

Ronni, you have no idea. I have one week to learn four chapters of organic chemistry....ahhhhhhhhhhh! Ive never studied much my entire life and still have done well, but christ, i need to study a little for this kind of class! Its the last one I need to take before I take the MCAT and put in applications in 8 months, and its been such a long road deciding to do this after i graduated college, working full time and going back to school. Ive got sooo much going on, so much stress, I guess part of the reason I cling to this is that he is like an oasis of calm (when he's being a good boy and showing up like he's supposed to, of course). I am wound up, tired, exhausted and anxious 24/7, but after an hour with that man, forget it. I breathe slower, I feel relaxed, i smile like an idiot for days and no one knows why. But it's the opposite effect when I don't see him when Im supposed to, unfortunately...stress and depression gets worse, and I can't focus on a damn thing.

 

Thank you for the well wishes....I need all the strength I can get *sigh* I never though it would be this hard to pull away from someone before. You know that awesome feeling when you know someone really likes you, and they just kiss you and look at you like you're the most beautiful thing they've ever seen? He's really good at doing that, and it's like crack. I swear I'd have an easier time weaning off of heroin than this guy. Have I mentioned that just the physical attraction alone between us is enough to put a dry piece of wood aflame? Yeah. I thought he was hot as hell the moment I met him, fits my physical preferences to a T, and certainly doesn't help me forget him when someone sees a pic of him on my computer or something and says "hey Kismet, is THAT MM? He's really hot". Argh! Or the fact that despite knowing he's cheating on his wife, all my friends , who wanted to hate him because he's no good for me, met him at a party I threw once a long time ago and all admitted they thought he was a great guy and hilarious and smart and that me and him made a perfect couple *sigh* we would have had some beautiful children lol

[norajane]

so I tell myself, if I continue to do it despite all that BECAUSE of how I feel about him, surely he must have similiar feelings if he puts himself through that to keep seeing me? Unless sex really is that important to him in an of itself. I mean, I know Im good in the sack, but that can't be the only reason....we didn't even have sex for a long time, was just kissing and fooling around for a long time, so it must be SOMETHING beyond just sex...right? or at least I tell myself, i guess. it would still be nice to KNOW for sure though...

 

Stop having sex with him. If he keeps coming around, then you'll know it's more than sex, and maybe you'll find out what that 'more' is.

[Reggie]

Kismet, you are right. This is pathetic. You are in complete control of this situation and can get out whenever you like. So, the question is : What , exactly. is the benefit you are deriving from remaining as a his second choice option? What is it that you like about this that causes you to act so powerlessly and pathetically? There is a gain, somwhere.

Perhaps , somehwere deep inside, you feel you deserve no better. But, you do. You just need to dig and get some help to regain your self respect and esteem. You know that this degrades you. You can do so much better if you get help. Good luck.

[stampdaddy]

Sorry about the treadjack, but Reggie, how can I get in touch with you?

[KismetGirl]

Kismet, I don't come by here very often anymore and post even less,(I ge bored working on school stuff and I'd like to try to help people so sometimes I'll still read though it mostly breaks my heart) but you seem to be hitting your head on a brick wall and can't seem to see clear that insanity begets more insanity.

 

as they say "insanity is defined as repeating the same behaviour over and over again, expecting different results." I need to change something. Lacking the strength to do it, or perhaps, the direction. Not sure I can or want to tell him good bye completely just yet...

 

You know the answers deep in your heart, and you're kidding yourself if you think that if he tells you that it's just a FWB kinda thing you'll be able to pull back and act all "cool". Your posts belie that positon. Deep down your posts are screaming b/c you are intelligent, beautiful, on the fast tract for a MD etc...HE should see all this and come running to you...and b/c he lacks this "spark" with his W it's just a matter of time before all those dreams come true, you are sending yourself higher and higher with these fantasies and it will become an even harder landing when you eventually fall.

 

You're right here too. I don't really want a FWB with him. Ive done it before and been ok with it, but I guess it's too late to really seperrate myself from him emotionally anymore. I guess I just tell myself its better to have him a little than not at all....which is silly but I know why Im being this way....

 

You're also right about the other bit. Because I have all these good qualities, I get so pissed off that he's with this other woman who, while she IS a good person, I know she is, because he would never marry a bad or mean woman....she is very different than I am- looks-wise, intelligence, motivation and professional ambition, you name it, she's my polar opposite in almost every way. She's not very outgoing, nor very funny, or sexy, or particularly smarter than average, or anything more than just...plain and average in every way. I don't think she's horrible, or stupid or ugly or any of those things, I really don't. She's obviously a good mom and a caring woman, But she obviously isn't everything that makes him happy, and I guess I feel alot of resentment that she just got lucky and met him first, and now she has his kids, and that alone will ensure I can never have him. Not until they grow up, anyway, and I cant sit around until im 46 waiting for that...I want a family of my own, Im only 25 for chrissake. Of all the 33 year old men I know, he's the only bloody one to get married so young and have three kids already. *sigh*

 

He's given you nothing to say he feels deeper for you. It's true, if a guy wants you he will move heaven and earth to be there. Blowing you off for 3 days is inexcusable for even a single guy that should be your guage for "walking away" behavior. One of the posters said that even if he started doing what you wanted for awhile he will go back to past behavior b/c he didn't come to this conclusion of giving you more time on his own, you will have forced it.

 

It's not the same as a single guy though, is it. More than any feelings he may or may not have for me, the fear of losing his kids will always win out. He didn't ignore me for three days, but yes, he didn't call back when he said he will. Both suck, of course, but its not so simple is it? Moving heaven and earth to be with someone is nice in theory....but i think he truly feels that he IS risking alot just by continuing to see me for four years despite his wife almost finding out twice about us and nearly threatening to leave him once already. I think sometimes he doesn't even know what the eff he's doing. My problem is trying to make him realize that just because he feels he is risking things by seeing me and that that should say something, it's not enough for me, because Im not happy just getting it when its only convenient for him. It isn't fair anymore.

 

I too have never been an OW but have been in crummy r'ships. It was not until I said ENOUGH! and focused on myself and became happy being with "me" that I truly evolved to true peace, contentment and happiness. If this continues, you have no way of knowing when or if he will pull the plug...each day you get deeper and deeper. What if when you go to study for the MCAT and he ends it then? You have the control now to walk away and take back your power that you've so freely given him. He is doing nothing to you that you are not allowing to happen to yourself. You are allowing HIM to set your moods whether it's a good day or bad one and that's a deep pit to sink into.

 

Yes, I do fear it always being the "wrong time" to end things. I imagine the total depression I fall into if I am cut off completely, and it never seems to be the right time to do it. Either Im in school, or busy with someothing else, or need to start studying for the MCAT soon, and I always worry that its the wrong time to try NC.....Im scared, I guess, of that feeling of knowing I won't see him anymore. I hate that he has control over my moods, trust me. That he can put me on cloud nine one week, and put me into a depression the next. Sometimes I wonder what feelings I put into HIm, though. I wonder....

 

 

I had to find myself though first. I had to figure out why guys just saw me for my "face" etc.. and not my heart. Until I set boundaries that were non negotiables did I find a guy that matched and exceeded what I wanted. But I had to be in a healthy place MYSELF first and learn to love me and be with me alone before I could hope to become part of a healthy r'ship. Same with my husband, he had to be on his own for awhile (both of us had bad divorces, but since they're over decades ago I'd hardly be classed as BW)

 

I realize you want to just "find someone" else to take this one's place in your heart, but it won't happen when you are tethered to MM's heart, it will keep you in a state of "what if"...perpetually..and you'll never reach that healthy point being okay on your own without "NEEDING" to have someone to love. And trust me, I understand when you say you are too sexual of a woman etc... I too have a higher than average passion running through me, but I am so glad I waited and went through the "aloneless" to be able to find this level of happiness. People cannot just jump from one r'ship to another it's just not realistic nor healthy for the long term.

 

When you are alone for awhile you'll make your list of what you expect and don't back down. If a person said they will call they should, or walk away. If a guy truly loves you he will call, nothing will stand in his way. The toughest lesson I learned is love is really simple and easy for the most part. If you are struggling, or crying or it's causing more heartache than uplifting you...WALK AWAY, it will destroy your soul bit by bit maybe so subtletly that you don't even realize it till it's almost too late. The other point is get to be okay even if love doesn't come your way. Happiness comes from within it is not built on someone else.

 

I pray you find the strength to end this for your own sanity. It seems impossible right now, but doing without sex isn't so horrible. It's far worse to lose your self respect and yourself in the process when you're being used. And regardless if he has feelings for you, he is using you for his means, he proves that over and over again...and that is not a good guy.

 

Peace

 

It's hard for me to focus on my self, but you're right again. I guess I can't help but get this feeling out of my head that I find it a horrid twist of fate to meet someone so perfect for you in every way, except that you met that at the wrong time, you know? Im at that age when most of my friends , fo r some reason, are in serious relationships, and getting married, and settling down, and while Im not in a mad rush to get married and have kids, I do want it some day, and Im about to embark on a school/training process that will have me very busy for almost the next ten years of my life, and sometimes I worry that I'll wake up one day and be 40 and still single, and lamenting that the love of my life passed me by. Maybe not all of us are meant to be happy, in that way.

 

Not good to think too far ahead tho, I suppose, gives me a headache. Right now I need to figure out how to get all these feelings off my chest, for starters, because I know I'll regret it if I never tell him or know how he feels. Next I need to learn how to be alone. Because I feel very lonely alot of the time lately, and honestly, this half-assed relationship with him gives me some momentary satiation that I havent' figured out how to get any other way. One day I will figure it out. Thank you for the advice in the meantime, despite my arguments, rationalizations, and other banter, I do listen and i do consider all of it very seriously.

[KismetGirl]

Kismetgirl, do you ever feel guilty and shame for doing what you're doing to his wife and those young children?

 

I feel guilty about how they'd feel if they found out. im not totally horrid.

 

But guilt alone is not enough to ignore all your feelings, as is evidenced by most A's. He has tons of guilt, wy more than me because it's his family that he goes home to after just spending two hours throwing me about my bedroom, right? But after he beats himself up for it, he comes and does it again the next week.

 

It isn't as simple as a matter of guilt or no guilt.

[KismetGirl]

Stop having sex with him. If he keeps coming around, then you'll know it's more than sex, and maybe you'll find out what that 'more' is.

 

 

Im pretty sure its not just sex. I think I say that it might be because im so sick of not knowing just exactly how he feels that im almost willing to get that as an answer just so I'll be less confused as to what he's thinking rather than not knowing at all. Sometimes an answer I don't like is better than no answer at all, I guess.

 

He's come by before plenty of times when he was sick or tired or whatever and wasn't in the mood, just to see me. I suppose that could be a devious ploy to make me think he's not just in it for sex, who knows. He showed up on my doorstep for my birthday to surprise me with two dozen roses and dinner at my favourite restaurant. For the first two years of our A, we didn't have sex at all. We kissed, made out like teenagers every chance we got, occasionally threw in some heavier fooling around, but no sex for a long time.

 

Makes me think that he's missing some emotional connection or at least attention from a woman, that he doesn't get at home anymore. He gets attention as a father, a husband, a provider, but I suspect he doesn't get that role of just being a man who feels that a woman is attracted to him and wants to show him affection. There'd be times when we worked together that he would just come into my office without saying anything, close the door, and just hug me for a couple minutes really tight, like he just wanted adult contact.

 

If I keep seeing him, not giving in to sex with him would be mighty hard. The fact that I am already a very sexual woman to begin with and don't have other options right now because I refuse to sleep around withjust anyone, when he walks through that door it's all I can do to get the door shut behind him before he's picked me up and carried me to my bed and ripped each other's clothes off.

 

I think I need to not call him and wait for him to contact me. Maybe give him a few days after he contacts me to let him stew and wonder why Im not returning the calls right away like I usually do. Then maybe when he comes over discuss things like I mentioned in my first response to JJ. But not sleeping with him? Phew. That'll be hard. it's something to consider, I guess. Imagine the best sex you ever had in your life, and that's what we've got right now. It's four-orgasms-an-hour-clawing-off-the-ceilings good. Im quite certain my neighbors two flats over can attest to it on good days and they've never even seen me. But they sure as hell have heard me. Ha!

[Reggie]

SD, I have no idea. Is there a PM capability on this site?

[KismetGirl]

SD, I have no idea. Is there a PM capability on this site?

 

You have to both be paying members of the site or have posted over a 100 posts in good standing to get the privilage. Carry on. Perhaps start your own thread, just for the two of you to discuss this elsewhere?

[jj33]

JJ

 

Thanks, somehow all your posts seem to help me actully think logically for at least a moment. But you're right, I shoudl tell him, just to get it out. Just not sure how to say it, I guess. He's asked me questions on occasion and I have probably been as bad at answering them as he is, but I do it because ....I don't know, I get nervous. He's not quite as forward as I am, but it seems sometimes he wants to know how exactly I view my place in this "relationship".

 

I did get an email from him Monday night telling me "Hello gorgeous, so sorry I have to cancel on you tomorrow but Ive been sick all weekend and won't be going in to work for the next day or two. I'll call you later in the week." Fair enough, he can't visit me if he's home sick, he lives over an hour away from me, he can really only see me on days he goes to work. So, he gets in touch on wed. Told me he'd try to come by Thursday, but then sent me a text Thursday morning to apologize for having to flake out on me again because of a work-related thing. Then friday was the day that he told me he'd ring me back on his way home and never did. Am I being crazy or a silly over-zealous woman to think that he should have found 20 minutes to sneak away and see me? He does come by at least once a week usually, but on a week when he hasn't seen me all week, I just don't see how hard it is to get home half an hour later than he normally would and just tell his wife he got stuck in traffic. I know he's paranoid about getting caught.....I don't know. Friday is "family fun night" at his house, this new thing his wife decided they should do with the kids, and I guess he doesn't want that guilty feeling fresh on his face when he goes home that evening. There I go, making excuses again.....

 

I do deserve better. Im so mad right now, but Im afraid that when he calls me to come by sometime this week, I'll just give in. So how should I approach this, then?

 

Sit him on the couch when he comes in and instead of letting him kiss me look him in the face and ask him if he considers me to be a friend? Assuming he says yes, on some level, then to say that then while I know Im neither his girlfrind nor his wife, that i still deserve and need more out of this than Im getting, and that I dont think its asking so much for him to make it a point to call me when he says he will , and that he needs to find a way to see me AT LEAST the once a week I expect, or else this just isn't fair to me or working for me? That this situation is not just about making him happy when it's convenient for him? That sometimes I just need to see him for a few minutes because he's one of the only people I know that despite what a ****ty day I've had can make me feel calm and at peace just by kissing me and hugging me?

 

I feel like just blurting out "Im in love with you more than I have ever been with any man I've ever met" might be....awkward. And better left for another time when hopefully at least ONE day I'll have him for more than just an hour.

 

 

Kismet as awkward as it sounds maybe telling him how in love with him you are would be the BEST thing.

 

If the man has ANY decency and it sounds like he does, he will have to respond. Either by saying I am married and I love you but this cant go further or by saying I didnt know you felt that way....

 

But give him a chance to do the right thing even if that right thing is walking away so he doesnt continue to hurt you. He is unlikely to walk away. That onus is on you. People treat us the way we let them treat us.

 

My heart goes out to you. Its very very difficult. You are obviously much more than sex to him but.... hes not moving.

 

My situation has been "over" for well over a year almost a year and a half. and still.... it gets to me. calling him thnking he is in one time zone and finding he is in another with W and its after 11 pm..... and he picks up the phone anyway.... it was only to discuss business but still...

 

calling him to discuss business and W picks up the phone and hands me over to her "darling husband" .... (yes she said those words...)

 

I am in a hell of my own making.

 

And the way that he always wanted to know that I loved him most and best .... never asking outright but seeking the knowledge in subtle ways...

 

My take on your situation is that the reason he asks is he cant BELIEVE (as my xMM couldnt) that someone as fabulous as you is so ga ga over him and willing to accept a situatoin that is so much less than you deserve.

 

Much as he feels guilt towards his family he has to feel guilt towards you too. He knows this isnt good for you and that you desrve far more. But as you keep accepting it... its like he won a big prize. Lucky lucky him. Even he cant believe it.

 

And at the same time, a little bit of them loses respect. How can you respect someone all that much if they accept lesser treatment, even if they are accepting it to be with you. This isnt what he would want for his sister, his daughters if he has them. So the forgetfulness creeps in.

 

I know you are hurting but dont go down the road of why cant he be late for family game night.

 

My view (and I know others feel differently) is that if you are going to accept being the OW, then you have to accept that his family comes first. That you get the time on the fringes. Others will say there is no time on the fringes any time you get with him is time stolen from his family but there are degrees. I think you will know what I mean.

 

When you are ready to say that you are not willing to be the OW and that you come first that will be a whole different story. Then its not a questoin of missing a few minutes of family game night. Its a question of whether its his night with the children.

 

I know its not easy. My heart goes out to you.

[jj33]

And one more thing.

 

There is never a good time. If you are not yet in your internship or if you are you are studying to be a MD no? So there is internship, residency the crazy hours ungodly committments on your time and sleep and your life.... many more years of saying there is no time to find a real relationship. How old will you be then. How many years will you have accepted less....

 

And then you begin in private practice or whatever you do when that is over and again there are incredible demands on your time. There are always reasons to stay if that is how you are viewing the situation.

 

But the longer you stay the harder it is to heal. Everyone has their own time frame. Everyone has their own issues to face. But the sooner you can face them the sooner you can begin to move on.

 

Big hugs

[Ronni_W]

I guess part of the reason I cling to this is that he is like an oasis of calm

Kismet,

I hear you. At least, I hear what you are telling yourself.

The thing is that I'm also hearing that this "oasis" is perhaps more like a mirage, yes? In that there is much more illusion (of hope and fulfillment) than what is the reality of what you are receiving.

 

Why not create your own 24/7 oasis? -- learn stress-relieving breathing techniques and other relaxation tools, is all that is required. And then you could avail yourself of them 24/7.

What you are getting now is 1/168 -- by sounds of things sometimes less, or maybe a tiny bit more, once in a while.

 

You have been making it okay that 1/168 is somehow "enough" to offset the other 167 hours a week of frustration, exhaustion and general crappy feelings. But. You say that the one hour can positively impact you "for days". Let's say two days. That is still only 49/168 that you're accepting as your worth.

 

I'll put myself out on the limb, and say that you absolutely do deserve more and better than that. And calling a mirage an oasis is only helping you to not accept more and better for yourself. It is self-limiting to call a garbage dump a rose garden. Is how I see it.

 

Okay. Now get back to that organic chemistry you got going on -- no, no, not with the guy --- I meant, "Get back to your school work, young lady!!!"