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Has anyone seen a pattern in their relationship between MM (or MW) and other relationships that they have had in the past.

 

 

I think I have chosen people who communicate indirectly and very often in a very self protective way. And took it to new heights by being involved with an MM.

 

Got an email today from someone I almost married 20 years ago that said he was updating contacts list and thought I may have moved (yeah right last time we spoke we didnt have computers so clearly you looked me up). He is looking for old school friends and if its me would I be in touch - who I am Janie from when he was 7 in the sand box?

 

He couldnt just say "was thinking of you, looked you up and wasnt sure it was you?"

 

NO NO NO why communicate directly and be a little bit open and honest even if its plain as day what the truth is?

 

Just like ex MM who claims that every contact is strictly business(including calling me urgently when I am time zones away on vacation to tell me something noone even needed to read in the newspaper).

 

They say if you look at a string of failed relationships there is at least one common denominator, and in this case its me. And I now a second similarity, I choose people who communicate in this way, even though on the surface they seem like they couldnt be more different.

 

I know it may be odd contacting someone after all these years but whats so tough about saying I looked you up is it you? the bs of i was updating contacts... maybe I am cynical now that I have been the OW, but it almost sounded sanitized like it anything could be denied if it wasnt me or if anyone saw it. Maybe I am just ultra sensitive after my days with the king of denial and obfuscation. But I just dont have the patience for it anymore. And that has to be a good thing.

 

Has anyone else noticed a pattern that played out in their A?

 

Edited to add when I first read the email I thought d*mn my taste in men has not improved over the years has it, same old sh*t.... but it has the M part of MM was not a good thing but in many other ways he was a much improved version of the earlier choices.

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Yes, to answer your question for me in particular. I have found with my MM who I have been seeing now for not quite one month that he has similar traits to other relationships in the past except my H. I guess lucky for me that my H has all the best qualities, but I find that things at home are not what they once were. In regards to traits I found with MM he is the opposite of anything that would really be a good fit for me; arrogant, slightly narcissitic, does not communicate well, somewhat condescending, I could go on I am sure. Which leads me to believe that it is that bad boy phenomena that has always historically drawn me in. Although I will say that at first glance you cannot see these traits it is only after you scratch the surface. So I struggle with the very logical choice of moving past MM and concentrating on my H. I know that my fellow posters will give me a few very hard comments about that, and I admit that they are correct.

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phoenixrising

jj - I was just thinking about this over the past several weeks... I don't post much, but am going through an 'adjustment' period after a one-year attempt to remain friends after a 3-year relationship (PA-EA on-off). I finally said 'enough' and have been NC for about 5 weeks now. It is unbelievably difficult... I feel so emotionally 'flat', hurt, sad... but know there is light at the end, based on what I read here.

 

So - what is the pattern? I thought I was done with behaviour that "enabled" (my pattern in the past)... and realized I was doing it again with him!!! I was enabling him to stay in his marriage, not deal with what it has become. My trust that his words were true, and that he would leave when the kids were on their own, simply enabled him to bury his head in the sand. I allowed him to have his cake and eat it too. Now, 4 years later, he's gotten through his kids' difficult teenage years, with my 'loving support'... And now that I'm going through some difficult changes, and he isn't here for me... how naive I was...

 

My problem is that I see the good in people, and sometimes put my needs on a back burner (i.e. no strong boundaries). I have a strong sense of self-esteem, feel good about who I am and what I do, have great friends and family support, great career... but I seem to give up my needs within relationships as I want to show my love through support.... what a horrible realization it was when I realized that what I was doing was ENABLING AGAIN!!!!

 

Yuck...

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Phoenix and sprintjulia thanks it good to see that. Phoenix I think that many people in As, particularly single women with MMs are enabling whether we realize it or not. I saw today that I expressed a lot of the emotion for both of us - not that both of them didnt love me but that they relied on me to be the one to express alot and that with MM I have definitely enabled him to let me express all the pain of breaking up because every time I get upset he knows how much I stilll love him so he still has that comfort of knowing the sex is over but my feelings arent. Until now... NC is hard but worth it. I deserve to move on too without being pulled back in by his constant contact.

 

I too am going through the NCs with someone after trying to be friends. It breaks my heart not to respond in a warm and friendly manner to his little attempts to be "friends" but seeing the words of someone else also obfuscating and squirming simply to say hey its been ages how are you... just sent me over the edge. Its too hard to be friends with someone you love who is breaking boundaries and denying it and coming up with inane excuses and insisting they are the real reason for contact.

 

It woke me up. I hope I can get over this and be friends with xMM someday, but whether or not that comes to pass, I now know I want to be with someone who is able to communicate directly and does not hide his feelings behind other things regardless of the reason. At least MM had a good reason he is married and trying to do the right thing now - the other one is just emotionally constipated thank God I never married him.

 

I may respond to him (the old bf) in time but something about it bugged me probably because it highighted the issue with MM and the similarity. And also he noted various things he had read about me on the web and sounded suprised (is that really you?) well did you expect less of me? Geez.... dodged a bullet there....

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I think I look for someone to watch out for me. I usually find someone w/some authority, etc., to keep an eye out for my interests. At least that's what seems to be the pattern.....

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Thats interesting. and in my lay person's view sounds like a healthier pattern. There is a tangible reward in the pattern (someone is looking out for you) rather than just reliving unhealthy emotional dramas.... of course there is the flip side... you are a strong adult woman and are capable of looking out for yourself.

 

Do you think the pattern is good or bad? Does looking out for you spell controlling? (excuse me if I am being an amateur shrink I find it all very interesting and healing and good for those like GEL who may have repeated a good pattern and found in the A a relationshp that is good and lasting)

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How we choose our mates and relationship has a great deal to do with how we were brought up, ie. family dynamics specifically our relationship with parents especially. Will require some digging into your family. It's likened to people who choose abusive relationships because abuse is all they knew growing up. Choosing passive mates could be because of lack of communication, physical and emotional connections between them and their families. So people grow up as such. And if you distaste certain behavior within your family, you try to do/live quite the opposite.

 

Bottom line: We are a sum product of our upbringing.:o

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Interesting topic and great replies!

 

I was listening to an interview with Gay Hendricks (renown relationship coach) and he asked 2 questions that really got me thinking:

  1. What is the recurring pattern that shows up in your relationships?
  2. What is it that makes you keep trying it again and again?
    (So it's question #2 that expands your topic.)

One of my patterns is to date men who have addictive/avoidant tendencies. On the surface, they are all vastly different. I've long since stopped dating the obvious kinds of addicts (drugs/alcohol.) But the pattern is this:

  • The guy charms/woos and becomes romantically/sexually addicted to me. (Feels great at that stage.)
  • After the bloom is off the rose, he inevitably goes back to spending much of his time in pursuit of his other addiction or whatever (drugs, hobbies, work, cheating, etc.)
  • I freak out because he is avoiding/abandoning me, either getting clingy/demanding (which makes them avoid me more) or by leaving.

It should come as no surprise that my dad was a violent alcoholic/drug/gambling/food addict who also travelled for work (4-5 days at a time) and also cheated on my mom. Ugh. I've healed a lot of this, in that the men in my life have all been progressively better. I've learned how to spot the obvious, but this recent one is still similar in some ways: he wasn't 100% available because of his marriage.

 

What am I getting out of it? I'm still working on answering that 2nd question. Part of it is I'm starved for that over-attention that those types place on me in the early phase. After I'm hooked on the love/sex though, I turn very codependant. I'll do near anything to fix the R, my man, or myself...hoping that at last I'll have the happy ending I never got in childhood.

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Interesting topic and great replies!

 

But the pattern is this:

  • The guy charms/woos and becomes romantically/sexually addicted to me. (Feels great at that stage.)
  • After the bloom is off the rose, he inevitably goes back to spending much of his time in pursuit of his other addiction or whatever (drugs, hobbies, work, cheating, etc.)
  • I freak out because he is avoiding/abandoning me, either getting clingy/demanding (which makes them avoid me more) or by leaving.

I've learned how to spot the obvious, but this recent one is still similar in some ways: he wasn't 100% available because of his marriage.

 

What am I getting out of it? I'm still working on answering that 2nd question. Part of it is I'm starved for that over-attention that those types place on me in the early phase. After I'm hooked on the love/sex though, I turn very codependant. I'll do near anything to fix the R, my man, or myself...hoping that at last I'll have the happy ending I never got in childhood.

 

WS - you said it so well. Those are the keys arent they - they get hooked on us, we get hooked on the things that we were starved for and then the cycle continues.

 

And for me I try so hard in betweeen and say I am never doing that again and then the next one comes along and seems like its not a problem (hence the more buttoned up types) but its the same thing over and over again. Lots of LDRs etc etc - men who werent totally available.

 

An old therapist of mine used to say just because you stopped breaking down the door doesnt meean its ok to break the window... meaning its the same thing just a different way of doing it.

 

Im not sure what the answer is except for go slower in the beginning when it seems like its "so perfect" and to back off completely when I see the mixed signals. Its basic psych 101 but so hard to do when you are in the midst of it. I thought I did that this time, every time I got mixed messages I ended it. And each time he came back saying all the right things. But I shouldnt have allowed that to continue as long as I did.

 

And the key of course is that he really never came back in the way that I needed him to - he still wasnt totally available. I am beginning to wonder if it isnt me who is committment phobic on some level.

 

So wanting a deep committed relationship but so afraid of being really hurt that I develop the deepest attachments to men who arent totally available. I know its cliche but its cliche for a reason. If someone is not totally available there is a good chance it wont work out. I keep telling myself I am old enough to have worked out the childhood traumas. It was an excuse of sorts when I was in my 20s, but decades later, its time to close that chapter and be happy.

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phoenixrising

"What is it that makes you keep trying it again and again?"

 

You are all so right that it is what happens in our childhood that affects us now... and I watched two people very much in love create a successful, loving marriage by supporting each other without being co-dependent. And though our "family" dynamics weren't perfect (whose are??) there was a lot of love and support for each one of us, children and parents alike. But the one thing that sticks out in my mind is that my parents continued to put their relationship first. They dated, laughed, hugged, and had fun together.

 

That's why I keep trying it again... I know it's out there... I just have an idealistic view that others feel the same way when I hear the words I want to hear. The mixed messages (especially from xMM) really were confusing, and I just didn't grow up with that. Thus, I chose to trust that the words would be followed by actions. And I was wrong, in every case. (I am leaving my wife, I will stop doing drugs, I won't verbally abuse you, etc.) Lots of promises, but no action.

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WS & others you are right on with the being the product of your upbringing. I am so that way too. Have been thru therapy a few times and know all the classic signs, but sometimes feel powerless to change.

It is kind of like two steps forward and one back and sometimes those two steps forward can encompass years without a hitch. I also see sometimes the excercise in futility when behaving badly by own mantra "Insanity is doing the same things over and over expecting different results." For me that means no matter how smart I am about understanding the process that has brought me to where I am today, invariably I will face setbacks that make take a lot to reconstruct. YUCK! :mad:

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What seems to be a common denominator is "affection starvation" syndrome, for a lack of better psychological term.

 

If you rarely got attention, whether as an only child or with other sibblings competing for your parents love and affection, we subconsciously and unconsciously seek out to "make up" for what we didn't get no matter who or where we get it from. Chances are that's probably why our parents end up being unhappy or divorced. Who knows...

 

It took me over three decades to understand WHY I needed the ex-BFs/Hs to call whenever, wherever they were going, time they were coming home. Drove them nuts and I couldn't understand it. It was a form of "separation anxiety" as a result of my father leaving one evening and never came home. He was shot mercilessly by a drunk. So, I had to make drastic changes in my thinking and behavior which I continue to do when I notice certain behavior triggers the same outcome---a reminder of what my mother would do and what I've often done as a result of my upbringing. What I found is acceptance and understanding of my parents. Plus it's made me a better person and positive in terms of my relationship with my BF and others.

 

Whatever reasons you have for choosing to become OW/OM to MM/MW, you'll find the answers in your childhood and upbringing. It sucks because the last thing we want to do is admit that we are a product of a dysfunctional bunch. But it's reality. Every family is dysfunctional in different ways, some more extreme than others.

 

Our childhood and family upbringing defines who we are today. We can only redefine ourselves by revisiting and understanding our history.

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Thats very true. I had a huge fight with my mother today. My weight (I am curvy and heavy tall and size 16) is a big trigger because nice women do their best to look as lovely as possible at all times and large is not lovely.

 

I gained about 25 pounds over the past year and its not a good look on me. I was at a family function a few months ago and afterwards said I was wearing the same thing to another function to which I was invited - response was oh no dont wear that maybe you should buy something new that wasnt very flattering. Money is a big issue for me at the moment and I do spent it when I have to but have a closet full of clothes so I showed her something else today that got big compliments in the spring from others, to which I was told that the original one was better. Better (how could it be better when she basically told me not to go if that was all I had to wear). So tonite we went shopping and I tried on something and was told what I had at home was better (again how could something she thinks is so awful that I shouldnt be seen in public in it be better). So I bought something outragesouly expensive and didnt try it on in front of her (she would only have vetoed it) with the option to return it.

 

And we discussed it tonite and I said its too bad that you cant accept the fact that I have gained weight and would rather see me spend an obscene amount of money trying to look the way you think I should look just to please people who really wont think about how I look for more than 2 seconds if that. To which she replied, but you are so beautiful - to which I replied then knowing I have recently worn these things and I told you other people thought I looked well, how hard would it have been for you to say that - you are beautiful you will look great. How hard would it be to be supportive of me?

 

Maybe I am suffering from analysis paralysis - but its all part of the same thing. Not being good enough. Not being worthy. The mixed messages of course I love you but but but... And I feel so whiny about the whole thing. I am old enough not to get so exorcized just because my mother thinks I am a whale (which she would of course deny, she just wants me to look my best - at any cost apparently the dress cost more than half a months rent).

 

I know she (and xMM) look at me and how sad she must be so unhappy to have allowed herself to gain so much weight. its so sad. And to an extent it is true.

I suppose if I were happier over the past year I would not have allowed myself to gain weight and I would have taken great care of myself. I think she and xMM were separated at birth....

 

Im so ashamed of having allowed myself to stay stuck on MM and this is yet another thing - be ashamed of how you look be very ashamed... dont let anyone see you looking like that... its a cultural conditioning. I remember being in the Caribbean once and a young girl stopped me and said she wished she had fat knees like me because in her island men liked fat knees. Maybe I should move there.

 

I know I am equally guilty of it - looking at someone and thinking ooh she shouldnt be wearing that or ooh she shouldnt be eating that...

 

But I dont know. Unless weight gain is related to illness, maybe gaining weight is like wearing a big badge saying hi I am miserable I eat for comfort.

 

Maybe staying with an MM or in my case pining is yet another big badge of unhappiness over things totally unrelated to him. Hes great but hes just one person who is not interested in pursuing the relationship on the same terms I am.

 

 

Sorry for rambling. Its all jumbling in my head. I just feel so overwhelmed right now. And its garbage I just need to put one foot in front of the other and do what I need to do. Analysis paralysis. Excuse me...

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how hard would it have been for you to say that - you are beautiful you will look great. How hard would it be to be supportive of me?

 

Maybe I am suffering from analysis paralysis - but its all part of the same thing. Not being good enough. Not being worthy. The mixed messages of course I love you but but but

jj33,

 

I can honestly feel your pain and anguish. You love your Mom and you want to please her. In doing so, you've compromised a part of your self worth. Whether if it's the dress, the shoes, your friends, etc, it will never going to be good enough for your Mom or to anyone you are trying to please. You've allowed your Mom to control you, much in the same way your Mom was probably controlled by her Mom or Dad.

 

My Mom did the same exact things to me as your Mom is doing to you. They don't know any better. While they do well with good intentions in their mind, they don't understand the emotional damage they cause. So, what did I do?

 

I decided that she couldn't tell me what to do anymore. I would tell her, "Mom, I love you. You raised your kids well. We've never been in trouble with the law. We all did well in school. If I make a mistake or didn't do something right, it will be my responsibility and my mistake alone. Not yours. So back off". I also moved away. She still "tries" to tell me what to do. When she does, I stop her dead on her tracks and don't let her get another word. I'd counter, "Mom, Mom, Mom....how old am I?" Startled she'd say, Why? "Just answer. How old am I?" And she'd say, "all right, all right. I got it." And I'd say, "Thank you. I love you". And we talk about something else.

 

As long as you allow your parents to control you even though with good intentions (they don't fully understand because of their own upbringing), you will NEVER allow yourself to blossom/mature wholly. And the longer you allow that control to take hold of your life, you will suffer deeper emotionally. This comes across very strong in your post. Your emotional unhappiness is manifested physically and physiologically which explains your weight gain and choosing a MM or partner who are not emotionally available. BUT who provides you the emotional support and encouragement you are not getting from your family. Unfortunately, it's still not enough. You're still unhappy. But in your mind, it's good enough for now until.....something else comes along?...until I lose that weight?...until I feel good and attractive enough to attract someone else better? All you are doing is putting a bandaid over a large wound.

 

That wound is the emotional abuse your parent(s) unconsciously and subconsciously doing to you for years that is affecting you as an adult. It's seeping into every aspect of your life.

 

I think you know in your heart what you have to do to stop the cycle of emotional abuse. Rather than confronting your parents as you have in your description you might want to change your approach.

 

"You know Mom, when you knock me down, criticize me, judge me and....you really hurt my feelings. It made me feel worthless....You are my mother. And I love you. But what I need from you as a mother is...

 

1. Love me no matter what dress I choose to put on. If there's a whole on my dress, tell me so that I can fix it or have time to change.

2. Encourage me to do best even when I don't do well.

3. Wish me luck when and if I try something new.

4. Hug me whenever we leave each other.

5. Respect me. Allow me to make my own mistakes.

6. Trust me to make my own decisions.

 

And if you truly love and respect me, this is what I need from you and it will start now. So decide Mom because I'm not going to settle for anymorre emotional abuse.

 

Chances are, your mom probably doesn't know how her comments have affected you. Based on your description, you two get involve in ongoing debate/argument which youn endlessly argue your position as to why you do what you do but without solution in the end. The only end result is a deeper emotional wound on you that you will most likelyl impose on your own kids down the road.

 

Think about it...The ball is in your court. To stop any cycle of verbal, emotional, physical abuse within a family unit it's up to the current generation to nip it. You're that generation.

 

The sad part in all this is that we are quick to seek scounseling when our relationship and marriages fall apart so we can heal. But when it comes to healing wounds from our childhood upbringing, we almost never seek help. We forget that the demise of our relationships stems deeply in our past.

 

Good luck. It's never too late to change your life course.:bunny:

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Thanks New Sunrise. You are right. We had that discussion last night. Sadly we have had it many times before. And I have to accept that she is who she is and try not to get so enmeshed in it. She is a wonderful woman but I dont think she is going to change at this point in her life. I dont have children but the behavior has been adopted by my siblings in the way they deal with their children. And it is sad.

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I know what you mean. But you gotta remember that it took years of programming your mom's thinking and behavior to what she is today. It will take time to "deprogram" her to adjust her thinking and behavior. Will also take time for YOU to deprogram and reprogram you. So don't give up, specially on yourself.

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Thanks. We live really far away from each other and rarely see each other. Believe it or not that was us doing better. In a week together it was the only problem. But I have been tense with her visit, NC etc. She has sacrificed so much for me and I feel like I have come up short in so many areas not the least of which is the A. Surprisingly she was very supportive about it insofar as she would not condone it but never judged me. She is much wiser with men and would never suffer over a man the way I have over this.

 

She is one of those amazing people who can sail through great adversity with grace and smile through it all. It tends to make me feel a bit inadequate. But that is my issue. She does her best and I know in her own way she thinks she is trying to encourage me to be my best. I am just not wired the way she is. Sometimes I wish I were. She has weathered a lot and come out the other side with great dignity.

 

Edited to add New Sunrise I just reread your post again and I just wanted to thank you again. What you say makes total sense. Clearly the talks and changing subjects arent working because I havent addressed the inner issues and that is something I have to do. And I know that is what upsets her the weight gain and the A are badges of unhappiness. It would be nice if she addressed it differently but they are issues I have to address.

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Thats interesting. and in my lay person's view sounds like a healthier pattern. There is a tangible reward in the pattern (someone is looking out for you) rather than just reliving unhealthy emotional dramas.... of course there is the flip side... you are a strong adult woman and are capable of looking out for yourself.

 

Do you think the pattern is good or bad? Does looking out for you spell controlling? (excuse me if I am being an amateur shrink I find it all very interesting and healing and good for those like GEL who may have repeated a good pattern and found in the A a relationshp that is good and lasting)

 

I think I use it as a failsafe. I'm capable, but even so, a little help might not hurt. Kind of a safety net. Is it good or bad? Probably neither. Or both! :p Who knows.

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She is one of those amazing people who can sail through great adversity with grace and smile through it all. It tends to make me feel a bit inadequate. But that is my issue. She does her best and I know in her own way she thinks she is trying to encourage me to be my best. I am just not wired the way she is. Sometimes I wish I were. She has weathered a lot and come out the other side with great dignity.

This speaks volume of where your self-esteem is in relation to your Mom. While it's admirable that you've put your Mom at such a high pedestal/role model. it may also crippled you in some way. In your mind, no matter what you do will not be as good or as great as your Mom.

 

NO ONE, bioligically related or not is wired the same. Keep in mind, you only received 1/2 of her traits. The other half is from your Dad whom you have not mentioned.

 

It's obvious your Mom has been a great role model. So has Hilary Clinton, Mother Teresa and Oprah. The majority of us will never attain the same level as these people have. But we are nevertheless just as content living in anonymity. There are people content working at Walmart and McDonalds just as there are people content engrossed in Wall Street.

 

Be happy of who you are. Accept who you are. Accept that you are not wired like your Mom, sibblings, or anyone else. Your DNA is the only thing that makes you and your Mom wired the same. Cognitively and emotionally you two are different and will always be different. It all comes down to one thing.....choice. You have the choice to change your approach towards your Mom or yourself or continue to compare yourself to your Mom or "blame" your Mom for why you are where you are. You have the choice to free and allow yourself to someone who is available or remain with a MM who offers restricted love and time. You have the choice to find your inner strength or forego it. You have the choice to equally look at your adversity (whatever you think that might be) and turn it into positive or allow it to cripple you emotionally, physically or mentally. No one else has this power. That power rests with you. If you dont use it, you stop growing and living.

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