Am I being unreasonable with MW?

[jton30]

I've been challenged lately with how to set my expectations. I'm divorced and in an A with a MW who is now separated but still (reportedly) working through the mechanics of a divorce. We sustained an A for several years and from the early days talked of marriage and a life together. In short, we set the expectations that this was a close and, hopefully, long-term relationship heading ultimately toward marriage.

 

Some weeks everything lives up to that expectation. We see each other often and do the things that most close couples would do. But every few weeks she goes dark. Very slow to respond to phone calls (sometimes taking a couple of days), seems to avoid spending time with me, and generally seems to push me to the side.

 

I find myself getting upset at the inconsistency and what I view as the lack of respect from her. Over the years my patience has worn thin since I had to accept she wasn't always available (when with H). We also went through a period where I found she had been talking to someone else and I felt the distance at that time too.

 

So - am I unreasonable to expect a call back within the day or at least some explanation of why she can't get in touch. I don't fully trust her but I'm trying to approach it tactfully. What to do?

[Dominique]

What to do is read the Life and Times of Stampdaddy, one of our favorite OM here.

 

You can look up his threads, even the recent ones, learn from them, and save yourself the heartbreak.

 

"Going dark" = Self doubt and uncertainty, and in these situations it is the Other person who will pay.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Tell her how you feel, and be honest. Don't expect her to be, though. Past behavior can be a good indicator of present and future behavior and from what you posted, it sounds like she not only is stringing along her husband, but has an OOM on the side as well (probably a long distance one since she 'goes dark' every few weeks or so).

 

I don't really see much hope of a great future with her. You seem to think that you and she have a chance. What do you base that on? All I see is a conflict avoiding woman who cheats instead of dealing with her emotional issues. Marrying her won't change that. I'm not certain why you think it would, or why you think your future with her would be a happy one.

[Owl]

If she's 'seperated', and 'working on the mechanics of the divorce'...why does she go dark when she's with H?

 

This doesn't make sense to me. If they're getting divorced...does it matter to him that she's with you?

[JamesM]

I don't fully trust her but I'm trying to approach it tactfully. What to do?

 

When I read that sentence, then I became confused. Why are you in a relationship with someone you do not fully trust?

 

Do you expect to obtain complete trust of her sometime in the future?

 

Why do you not fully trust her?

 

Why is a call so important...is it because you do not fully trust her?

 

IMO I would consider dating someone who you can fully trust.

[jton30]

You seem to think that you and she have a chance. What do you base that on? All I see is a conflict avoiding woman who cheats instead of dealing with her emotional issues. Marrying her won't change that. I'm not certain why you think it would, or why you think your future with her would be a happy one.

 

Good questions, all. I've had my doubts in the past and chose to move on for several months on two occasions. Both times she started to pursue me again and is persistent in telling me that I'm the person she wants to spend a life with. Many times her actions are consistent with this statement - but sometimes she goes through the 'self-doubt' where she challenges our prospects or asks why I'm still interested in her.

[JamesM]

Since my time for editing was over, I wanted to add something else....

 

Is the lack of trust because you know she is capable of cheating on a man whom she SAYS she is committed to? Can YOU trust her to be faithful to you when the times are tough?

[jton30]

If she's 'seperated', and 'working on the mechanics of the divorce'...why does she go dark when she's with H?

 

I was speaking mostly of circumstances in the past where she was living at home and he was around. It became the norm for her to be unavailable at times for that reason.

 

But now that she's separated, I'm trying to break that convention and so I'm doubly frustrated that she's unable to answer her phone or fails to get back to me in a reasonable time. I suspect something is 'up' but I don't have any proof.

[jton30]

Is the lack of trust because you know she is capable of cheating on a man whom she SAYS she is committed to? Can YOU trust her to be faithful to you when the times are tough?

 

Of course part of it is that I know how she dealt with H's phone calls when she was with me. Because I knew he was in the picture, she generally picked up and made up a story about where she was. I think this would be typical of all affairs. But other times she would switch off the phone or fail to answer. As I mentioned she also had been talking to someone else at some point and I had the same sense of growing distance between her and me. Obviously, since someone else was consuming her attention.

 

With all that said, things are very satisfactory about 80% of the time. But there's that 20% that bothers me. The week after she goes 'dark' she is back being affectionate and enthusiastic and generally living up to expectations. Sometimes I wonder if it's guilt or is she really does go through some moody period of self-doubt which she soon overcomes.

[JamesM]

Is there any possibility that she has another guy besides you? Could she have had affairs with two men while married?

[jton30]

Is there any possibility that she has another guy besides you? Could she have had affairs with two men while married?

 

It did happen in the past though she claimed it was nothing serious. Of course how would I know how serious it was? What bothered me was the duplicity of it. I had given her a few 'outs' since I felt the distance but she didn't take them.

 

Generally my feeling is that I'm her 'old reliable' but that she stills feels some need to get attention elsewhere in what may not be a serious relationship, but still a breach of trust and a lack of respect for our relationship. I've given her an amateur diagnosis of being a love addict who defines herself by her relationships. All I can assume is that when things are stable or feeling stale with us, she starts looking for a spark somewhere else.

[Cagney]

Here you are actually WRITING about her behavior and how it hurts you.

 

I let this very thing go on for seven years.

Actually I ENABLED this to to go on that way.

I WROTE about it too - for years.

 

I called it going dark too, and it hurt each time and I made excuses for her each time.

 

After seven years of her dodging and evading my efforts to communicate my pain and even my shame about all the lying and hiding - AND getting her only part time. She finally got tired of the "whining" and just found another f-buddy who won't complain.

 

Now, I'm in counseling and the most important question my counselor pings me with is,

"Why did I allow it, when I even WROTE about it so early on?"

"What was wrong with me?"

 

So why are you allowing this from her?

 

Why for for me? Well lets' see ...

Great sex? True

I loved her? True

Maybe very low self esteem? - (gulp!) also true

No real game? - OK take it easy now, I don't like admitting that.

 

Man! Why are you allowing this?

Do you have self esteem?

Do you have any game?

 

I say: END IT NOW!

 

DO NOT TRY to threaten break up - as a negotiation.

i.e.; END IT - don't just threaten to end it.

That's just another form of you controlling her.

 

She's NOT giving you what you need! What's wrong with you?

 

Why do you want to be with somone who is not LOOKING for ways to please you and be with you. There are girls out there who WANT to give. But your MW is NOT one of them.

[JamesM]

So if I read correctly, you are with someone who has cheated not only on her husband during their marriage, but she cheated on the person with whom she was having the affair. Is that true?

 

And you think this relationship is capable of fidelity in the long term?

 

IMO, you may want to exit before you get hurt...even more. Trust will never be a part of this relationship.

[jton30]

JamesM, I have come to that conclusion many times but end up sucked back in by platitudes and promises. I struggle with making it stick.

 

Cagney, sorry to hear of your story and I've read your thread. In fact, your story could be mine only it hasn't gone on for as long - although I'm sure it could if I let it.

 

Your checklist would look a lot like mine. I think there was a time I convinced myself that this relationship was "it" and blinded myself to other possibilities. I don't know whether or not I have 'game', but I get a fair amount of interest from women. The problem is that I've convinced myself that this relationship I'm in has been the one. I'll confess to having a bit of ego wrapped up as well. I'm not a quitter and I'll win this game, etc. Of course I may end up a loser for winning. Her husband knows that feeling.

[Cagney]

I don't know whether or not I have 'game', but I get a fair amount of interest from women.

 

OK then, go with THAT!

 

The problem is that I've convinced myself that this relationship I'm in has been the one. I'll confess to having a bit of ego wrapped up as well. Her

 

Dooooh! I know, I know I know!

 

Her husband knows that feeling.

 

Then he's in the club with you and me.

Get OUT of it man! Save you're dignity NOW while you CAN.

 

When you drop the ax, if she comes 'round, pleading with you not to leave her ... She's only buying time, getting her wits back, keeping YOU off balance, and keeping her OPTION open. Then, she'll dump you when she gets gets her wits back, or just go dark again when the mood changes.

 

To you, she is the ONE!

But to her - you are only one of her OPTIONS.

 

Don't drop her to negotiate and try to keep her.

 

Just drop her - to drop her

Edited March 21, 2008 by Cagney

[Cagney]

This was written by someone else.

He was just like you and me but finally figured things out.

 

Long time married cheaters (MC) are not primarily concerned with the emotional wellbeing of their lover.

 

It seems logical that MC’s actions revolve around you, the lover. But take heed, a cheater’s actions and decisions generally revolve around someone more important: themselves.

 

A cheater must decide which decision will yield the best results for him/her in the long run. That’s all it is usually about: “What do I stand to gain from this?”

 

Plenty of times, they don’t want to decide. They don’t even want to think about deciding. They will utilize whatever tactics they can come up with to buy time. Sometimes even they themselves believe that buying time will eventually lead to a decision. Sometimes they figure they will buy time until someone finds out or gives up and leaves.

 

Cheating is, generally, about convenience. Cheaters can be amazingly crafty, manipulative, and deceitful to the point where it is second nature and assimilated to their own perception as normal or even non-existent. They must justify all actions to themselves in order to thrive.

 

Is it possible that it is a one-time cheater with a heart of gold who married the wrong person and now really wants you, his/her newly discovered soulmate? Sure. But pretty likely, it isn’t. It’s got nothing to do with you, and everything to do with them. And nothing you can do can change the type of person you are dealing with.

 

You also don’t know what hidden issues could be fueling a cheater. Perhaps they are flat out hedonists, or sociopaths. Perhaps they are emotional cowards. Perhaps they are love addicts. Perhaps they choose to run away from problems rather than face them head on. These things aren’t going to go away by changing partners.

 

So you still want to take your chances and try to wind up with this individual? You want to survive with your heart and sanity intact?

 

Do yourselves a favor and realize the kind of person you’re probably dealing with. Know the risks. Know the statistics. Protect your heart. Don’t get too close. Don’t be swept away by the beautiful word-scapes that they paint for you. Stop rationalizing everything they say. Stop taking their “side”, because it’s likely they are not on yours. Know that YOUR logic does not equal their logic.

 

I think this applies - even though she's now free of the husband.

She's still not really IN to YOU - and still figuring WTF she wants for herself. But she has clearly not decided on you, although she SHOULD have by now.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Cagney