Psychology and oh poor baby

[phoenixgirl]

Poor baby? Me or him?! (Warning: rambling follows, largely aided by red wine)

 

Had a talk with MM today about the psychology of our situation - never had that conversation before. (Don't ask how it came up, it's a long story.) I didn't *want* the conversation since I'm valiantly attempting NC; so dxmn hard when I see him everyday at work. I shared with him that opinion article ("He's left! What next?") from the gloryb website (and no, it was not in an attempt to sway his mind/decision, despite the recent sarcarsm - just to give him a bit of perspective). He made this startling observation:

 

"The thing is, I never really left home."

 

I made the comment about how he hadn't been ready to leave home - she'd kicked him out on D-Day - and in fact, probably didn't even WANT to leave home. Despite the fact that he always said that he was unhappy and constantly talked about leaving her, his M was a comfortable and safe and a known entity, even though it was verbally abusive. And that he still has a lot of unresolved issues - mainly guilt - from having left in the manner that he did.

 

And that as hard as it may be, he needs to figure out if he really did fall in love with me, or if he was just using me for what he wasn't getting emotionally at home. Did/does he love me for ME, or just for the love I've been giving him?

 

That will be the main issue the two of them need to work on once he gets home. He keeps telling me that once he goes back it will be on HIS terms - he'll be calling the shots, sleeping in the spare bedroom, only staying there until he gets back on his feet financially, yada yada yada. I don't believe a word of it, of course. That may be the case at first (which I doubt), but that will change. With his return, everything will be on her terms and that's something he'll have to deal with. He has to be committed to making the M work - and as previously mentioned in another thread o' mine, that means letting go of me COMPLETELY. Yes, I absolutely contributed to them splitting up; but not only me but many others can attest to the fact that there are/were other factors involved in their M that need to be ironed out in order for them to succeed. I say this not in the naive "oh I believe every bad thing he's ever told me about her" POV but from firsthand knowledge (things I witnessed before the A) and from what other people have told me, from before I ever knew them.

 

I don't know why I shared all that. I guess it's just weird that I found myself in a position of playing M counselor to my MM - or, I guess, xMM; and I was strangely okay with it. I feel very vulnerable and have been off-and-on crying the last couple of days. But I truly do want him to be happy and I'm worried about his well-being. I fully understand there's a conflict of interest in wanting him to be with me and trying to counsel him on how best to deal with his M... I'm so confused and mixed up in my head, and the first time I saw him this morning he looked so sad and tired that I just wanted to hug him... But that was probably just a ploy to gain my sympathy, so thankfully I didn't fall for that, even if I *did* get sucked into a conversation. I'm at the point right now where I give myself props for no physical contact.

 

I will NEVER put myself through the living hell of an A again. It causes too much pain for *everyone*.

Edited March 11, 2008 by phoenixgirl

[nadiaj2727]

Been there, honey. After I broke up with xMM and was trying to have NC he would use me as his personal counselor and talk about why he thought he should give his marriage one more chance now that he didn't have me in his life (like the mattress that I was for so long), how he was mad that it took him so long to get a move on it and why he thinks that was (we never had a d-day, he just moved out on his own but still couldn't get off his indecisive booty), etc. etc. etc. It was almost like at the beginning of our A when he would constantly complain about everything wrong with his marriage and his wife etc. and tell me all his hopes and dreams and obstacles to them etc. I had the same observing, almost neutral reaction you seem to have, like "okay, you are one messed up dude, why are you telling this all to ME and why are you thinking about working it out if things are so bad." I think I kind of got a kick out of "helping" him and not being the one crying and confused etc. I felt like I finally had more power in the situation.

 

At that stage I felt confusion and almost empathy... like, "wow, I'm a stronger person than he is, I'm calling the shots, I'm finally in control of my own life and he is still confused and fence-sitting."

 

The next stage I soon entered was anger. I was like how DARE he use me as his personal crying pillow? Is that all I ever was to him? He is such a friggin' p***y and I can't believe I was with someone so weak, who just used me to validate himself and escape from his so-called s****y marriage, etc. Man I really hit a wall of hate and anger towards him.

 

I guess in a way that's good -- they say anger is a stage you have to go through to let someone/ something go. And honestly I liked it better than pining over him and missing him and wondering what might be etc. (I think it was my way to deal with it, to tell myself it was over and it was a good thing, because he is not a strong person etc... those things are all true but at first I had to *convince* myself of them by being really angry.) But it still held me back from growing because all I could think about was how mad I was at him (and at myself, for ever being with him).

 

The true power and healing, though, will come when you manage to completing NC. Honestly I don't know if that's possible since you work with him. I am still wanting to change jobs even though my job's awesome... I obviously screwed it up by choosing to be with him and now I have to deal with all the repercussions of that. I really want to forget about him completely which is hard to do with him right there in my face all day, trying to find reasons for me to talk to him/ work with him. It drives me crazy so I realize I'll probably have to leave and sever the last remaining (work) tie I have with him, so I can be free of him once and for all. (Like yours, mine said at first that he was going to leave our job... well in my case it was like yeah right, just like he was going to leave his marriage... lots of talk and no walking, buddy.) For a long time I thought, I don't want to give up *this* for him, too, my job, and I am strong enough to forget about him. Well, I am strong enough to not be with him anymore but he is still always there like that annoying mosquito who always comes back wanting to suck my blood dry. I have to keep squishing him or shooing him and it gets really old and tiring. At this point I just want my own life back like before he was ever in it. I don't know how else to do that except to make sure I don't ever hae to see him.

 

Anyway I understand where you're coming from. It takes time but if you can really try NOT to indulge him with therapeutic or psychological conversations (which is still HIM using YOU for something he doesn't deserve at this point), I think you'll see that your overall emotional attitude improves a ton. You will literally feel like skipping down the street, singing "I'm not tied to a married man with a million emotional and mental problems and drama and chaos anymore... wooo hoooo hoooo... go meeeeeee...." If you're like me, then true NC will make you the most *genuinely* happy you have felt since before you started the affair (which only made you artificially/ temporarily up up up happy before you came crashing down). You will be even-keeled happy and content and it will feel oh so sweet. Like after you manage to be successful on a diet for a month or not drink alcohol for a month or you do a kick-a** job on a project at work... you will feel like all your greatest accomplishments, solely made possible due to you and you alone all rolled up into one. You will think "why did I ever waste my time talking to xMM about his F'ed-up situation? I am much better off without him and he just was just a ball and chain dragging me down when I was already in a low enough place to get involved with him the first place. No more of that, ever!"

 

You'll soon be phoenix rising girl

[phoenixgirl]

Oh, Nadia, you are a goddess. Thank you. I needed to hear all that more than you can possibly know.

 

Do you know, the Phoenix has a very special meaning to me - I have a couple of special decorations in my house and even a tattoo of one? I CAN rise from this situation bigger and better than ever before, and I DON'T have to be his mattress, counselor (even though that's TECHNICALLY, IRL, what I am, so it's hard to step out of those shoes at any time), or fall-back plan at any time!

 

And guess what - the big arse is texting me! And guess who's NOT texting him back! (But I gotta admit that's hard... and a little scary, 'cause he has a tendency to high-tail it to my house if I don't respond, because he gets worried about me - long story there.)

[GreenEyedLady]

It's not your responsibility to keep pain from everyone...

 

It is your responsibility to take care of yourself...Do what you need to feel better...I can bet you that MM and his W aren't thinking about your pain...Don't worry about theirs, worry about YOU...

[White Flower]

Hang in there, PxG. You'll do great. I'm glad you're not answering his texts. If you think he'll show up on your doorstep just text back, "I'm OK so let me be" and he'll stay away.

 

I feel for you. I wouldn't do the A thing again either because it is so painful. You'll find someone who is worthy of you.

 

Hugs

[Meaplus3]

Poor baby? Me or him?! (Warning: rambling follows, largely aided by red wine)

 

Had a talk with MM today about the psychology of our situation - never had that conversation before. (Don't ask how it came up, it's a long story.) I didn't *want* the conversation since I'm valiantly attempting NC; so dxmn hard when I see him everyday at work. I shared with him that opinion article ("He's left! What next?") from the gloryb website (and no, it was not in an attempt to sway his mind/decision, despite the recent sarcarsm - just to give him a bit of perspective). He made this startling observation:

 

"The thing is, I never really left home."

 

I made the comment about how he hadn't been ready to leave home - she'd kicked him out on D-Day - and in fact, probably didn't even WANT to leave home. Despite the fact that he always said that he was unhappy and constantly talked about leaving her, his M was a comfortable and safe and a known entity, even though it was verbally abusive. And that he still has a lot of unresolved issues - mainly guilt - from having left in the manner that he did.

 

And that as hard as it may be, he needs to figure out if he really did fall in love with me, or if he was just using me for what he wasn't getting emotionally at home. Did/does he love me for ME, or just for the love I've been giving him?

 

That will be the main issue the two of them need to work on once he gets home. He keeps telling me that once he goes back it will be on HIS terms - he'll be calling the shots, sleeping in the spare bedroom, only staying there until he gets back on his feet financially, yada yada yada. I don't believe a word of it, of course. That may be the case at first (which I doubt), but that will change. With his return, everything will be on her terms and that's something he'll have to deal with. He has to be committed to making the M work - and as previously mentioned in another thread o' mine, that means letting go of me COMPLETELY. Yes, I absolutely contributed to them splitting up; but not only me but many others can attest to the fact that there are/were other factors involved in their M that need to be ironed out in order for them to succeed. I say this not in the naive "oh I believe every bad thing he's ever told me about her" POV but from firsthand knowledge (things I witnessed before the A) and from what other people have told me, from before I ever knew them.

 

I don't know why I shared all that. I guess it's just weird that I found myself in a position of playing M counselor to my MM - or, I guess, xMM; and I was strangely okay with it. I feel very vulnerable and have been off-and-on crying the last couple of days. But I truly do want him to be happy and I'm worried about his well-being. I fully understand there's a conflict of interest in wanting him to be with me and trying to counsel him on how best to deal with his M... I'm so confused and mixed up in my head, and the first time I saw him this morning he looked so sad and tired that I just wanted to hug him... But that was probably just a ploy to gain my sympathy, so thankfully I didn't fall for that, even if I *did* get sucked into a conversation. I'm at the point right now where I give myself props for no physical contact.

 

I will NEVER put myself through the living hell of an A again. It causes too much pain for *everyone*.

 

I can understand how your are feeling. The pain of an A in my case (ea) is awful. The most important thing to remember here is take care of you. No need to waste your time on xmm and his marriage those are his problem's for him and his W to deal with. NC while very tough is the best method to moving on. You know it's very easy to get caught up in thoughts of the good times so if you can remember the pain and hurt and realize that more harm then good has come from this, it can help to put the whole situation into perspective. Hang in there and stay strong. Best of luck.

 

AP:)

[phoenixgirl]

Thank you, guys, so very very much. Your support and love mean so much more to me than you can ever know.

 

I lay in bed last night just wanting so much to text him back... sometimes it's hard not to BEG him to JUST CHOOSE ME, yanno? But I've never done that, thank goodness I do have *some* modicum of self-respect left. I can't turn the cell phone off b/c of being on-call, so it was very hard to ignore... but I did. I finally fell asleep around midnight.

 

And I saw him this morning - and I was okay. I didn't speak to him, I was sitting in the caf eating breakfast. What did he do?? Sits down next to me and says, "I haven't told [landlord] I'm moving out yet b/c I just don't know if I'm going to." Oh thank you arsehole for that fishing hook in my gut, you know darn well you're going to so STOP TRYING TO REEL ME BACK IN!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just LOOKED at him, got up, threw the rest of my breakfast in the trash and walked away without saying anything.

 

After that, I feel... I don't know. No anxiety, no hope, nothing like that. It's just kind of like, whatever. I have to go to a meeting and I have lots to do today. I don't have time for his ****e.

[OpenBook]

From "I never really left home" to "I'm not sure I'm going to move back home"??? Is this guy even remotely aware of how ridiculous he looks? Good on you for not sitting there and listening to it. Sheesh. Who needs it?!??

[nadiaj2727]

Thank you, guys, so very very much. Your support and love mean so much more to me than you can ever know.

 

I lay in bed last night just wanting so much to text him back... sometimes it's hard not to BEG him to JUST CHOOSE ME, yanno? But I've never done that, thank goodness I do have *some* modicum of self-respect left. I can't turn the cell phone off b/c of being on-call, so it was very hard to ignore... but I did. I finally fell asleep around midnight.

 

And I saw him this morning - and I was okay. I didn't speak to him, I was sitting in the caf eating breakfast. What did he do?? Sits down next to me and says, "I haven't told [landlord] I'm moving out yet b/c I just don't know if I'm going to." Oh thank you arsehole for that fishing hook in my gut, you know darn well you're going to so STOP TRYING TO REEL ME BACK IN!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just LOOKED at him, got up, threw the rest of my breakfast in the trash and walked away without saying anything.

 

After that, I feel... I don't know. No anxiety, no hope, nothing like that. It's just kind of like, whatever. I have to go to a meeting and I have lots to do today. I don't have time for his ****e.

 

See, you are already recognizing his fishing attempts, his manipulation, his selfishness. Good for you for walking away at b-fast and for not texting him back. And you are getting to understand yourself better and be stronger, because you know you want to text him and why, but you know you shouldn't, so you don't.

 

I relate to you so much. That's cool about the phoenix thing -- I know what you mean about wanting to rise from the ashes.

 

Through counseling I've realized that I was looking to xMM for validation and acceptance. My parents are super strict evangelical Christians and I only felt validated by them by going along with the whole religion thing, even though it wasn't really what I believed (and then for awhile I would have fears that I would burn in Hell because I didn't believe, even though I really tried to believe and went through all the motions.) To this day they don't accept me for who I am because I am not their perfect Christian daughter. Their constant cricticism about my life, beliefs and choices (and of course they don't even know about xMM !) is really hard for me to deal with, and I think that part of me rebelled in the past by making self-destructive choices and looking for acceptance from all the wrong people and situations.

 

Through counseling I've learned that I need to deal with it on my own and accept and love myself and look for validation from within, not from external sources like xMM and other bad decisions I've made in the past, because it turns out that they are just as empty and in pain as I was. I honestly don't think that a healthy individual who respects himself and his relationships cheats... so I know that's why xMM was a bad decision/ unhealthy partner for me. I'm telling you all of this to say, don't focus on xMM and his decisions. Focus on you and your past decisions and why you made them. Work on bettering yourself and giving yourself all the love, acceptance and validation you deserve. And realize that he cannot give you those things or heal any painful parts of your life, because he is confused and selfish and weak (I say this based on his behavior).

 

Sorry for turning this into a physchology forum LOL, but I really think that relationships are sometimes our attempts to work out issues within ourselves. I think it's really good you're in counseling and you're posting here and you're figuring all of this stuff out about yourself. Stay strong.

[Owl]

Two seperate things for you:

 

That will be the main issue the two of them need to work on once he gets home. He keeps telling me that once he goes back it will be on HIS terms - he'll be calling the shots, sleeping in the spare bedroom, only staying there until he gets back on his feet financially, yada yada yada. I don't believe a word of it, of course. That may be the case at first (which I doubt), but that will change. With his return, everything will be on her terms and that's something he'll have to deal with. He has to be committed to making the M work - and as previously mentioned in another thread o' mine, that means letting go of me COMPLETELY.

 

OK, so if this is his PLAN...then why are you even in the picture at all right NOW???

 

He's planning on going back...planning on working on the marriage. That means the marriage is his "choice"...which means you're NOT his choice...ergo...you shouldn't even be in the picture at all anymore. For your OWN sake, you should be moving on already. For HIS sake, for his family's sake...drop him and run...now...not later, but now.

 

 

I guess it's just weird that I found myself in a position of playing M counselor to my MM...

 

I can understand the feeling. As a BS, I had to nurse my wife through her "withdrawl" over losing her OM. He made the choice to break things off with her when she was 'waffling' in her choice between he and I. So she chose me...kind of by default, but there you are.

 

So I spent 3 weeks playing grief counselor to my wife...over the loss of OM!!! It wasn't easy...it was darned hard...it HURT. But it was also the right thing to do. It showed her how much I loved her, despite all that had gone on. And it did show her how "temporary" her feelings for him were.

 

So, from the opposite side...I can definitely relate to how tough that was for you.

[MimiMe]

It's not your responsibility to keep pain from everyone...

 

It is your responsibility to take care of yourself...Do what you need to feel better...I can bet you that MM and his W aren't thinking about your pain...Don't worry about theirs, worry about YOU...

 

 

But it is your responsability to bring pain to everyone.

Why should anyone be thinking about someone that self-inflicts pain????

It was your choice to be in the myst of the dramz and most likely you are the reason for the dramz. Let me guess though... it sounds too cliche.

 

Life is about "Do you"...

 

"His terms" I'm dying over here. LMAO! What terms??? he's lucky to even be allowed back, and he's the one laying down rules. Please! Pathetic.

At this point not even his wife gets sympathy. She's opened the door for you, him and the whole hood to hurt her.

[MimiMe]

Thank you, guys, so very very much. Your support and love mean so much more to me than you can ever know.

 

I lay in bed last night just wanting so much to text him back... sometimes it's hard not to BEG him to JUST CHOOSE ME, yanno? But I've never done that, thank goodness I do have *some* modicum of self-respect left. I can't turn the cell phone off b/c of being on-call, so it was very hard to ignore... but I did. I finally fell asleep around midnight.

 

And I saw him this morning - and I was okay. I didn't speak to him, I was sitting in the caf eating breakfast. What did he do?? Sits down next to me and says, "I haven't told [landlord] I'm moving out yet b/c I just don't know if I'm going to." Oh thank you arsehole for that fishing hook in my gut, you know darn well you're going to so STOP TRYING TO REEL ME BACK IN!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just LOOKED at him, got up, threw the rest of my breakfast in the trash and walked away without saying anything.

 

After that, I feel... I don't know. No anxiety, no hope, nothing like that. It's just kind of like, whatever. I have to go to a meeting and I have lots to do today. I don't have time for his ****e.

 

 

Start charging him at this point. He is using to download all his nonsense.

[MimiMe]

 

 

So I spent 3 weeks playing grief counselor to my wife...over the loss of OM!!! It wasn't easy...it was darned hard...it HURT. But it was also the right thing to do. It showed her how much I loved her, despite all that had gone on. And it did show her how "temporary" her feelings for him were.

 

So, from the opposite side...I can definitely relate to how tough that was for you.

 

 

So did I. It cost me 4 cents a minute and I had to sit there and listen to all the BS that my stbxH was telling me about the 2 cent tramp of his OW. It was therapeautic, because the more he talked, the more he exit my heart.... his prison calls were blocked off my line, I dont open his letters, never visited again, and could care less about his release date. 8 months and counting of NC and this was my *H*, the father of my kids.

Please, if you continue to drag with this relationship, then you deserve what you get. There is a solution to everything, I am sure that there is more employment in your town.

[phoenixgirl]

Owl, thank you for your response. I can't imagine how difficult your situation was for you, being the BS. I *am* trying to drop him and run far away... difficult when we work together and he keeps coming back like a hemrrhoid! Plus, even though I know it's the best thing for everybody involved, I still care deeply about him (even though I'm seeing more and more clearly how manipulative he is), and the withdrawal is hard. I'm getting better at it, though. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

Nadia, we're sounding more and more alike! I too grew up in a typical Christian household; but none of my family know that I have fully deviated from that path yet, and it's taken me a long time to get over some of the wounds that were inflicted as a result of my upbringing (some as a result of religion, others were miscellaneous). I swear, were we twins separated at birth or something?!

 

Mimime, I appreciate your perspective but I often feel that your posts are nothing more than direct attacks against OPs. Is this true or am I just reading you all wrong?

[Lookingforward]

Owl, thank you for your response. I can't imagine how difficult your situation was for you, being the BS.

 

Mimime, I appreciate your perspective but I often feel that your posts are nothing more than direct attacks against OPs. Is this true or am I just reading you all wrong?

 

I agree, Owl seems unbelievably grounded considering, I always read and appreciate his perspective on the many threads I read here.

 

Mimi is bitter and hostile to all OWs or perceived OWs, it comes across in every post. Like a couple of other posters I wonder if attack is the only reason she posts here frankly. It's getting old and I tend to ignore most of them now.

 

Mimi we are not YOUR OW and every situation here is not YOURS.

Edited March 12, 2008 by Lookingforward
typo (I'm sooooo anal retentive)

[MimiMe]

Neither is every situation peachy.

 

Go read other places where I have posted more "supportive" comments.

It is what it is... Every situation has 2 solutions- right or left, yes or no, white or black. Some chose to live in the middle, maybe and grey... Then you find yourself consumed with all the negativity and emotional distress that these kind of relationships bring to the people involved in it.

 

Like I said before and explained to NadiaJ- I am not trying to be hostile, I have an opinion like everyone else and can post it like everyone else. It happens to be a bold one that doesn't always offer the shoulder. I am fairly new here but it seems like some users have dragged along in their situation way too long. To be 100% honest, I am more disturbed to see how some females can just waste their life feeling under-valued, specially my own gender (no offense to the gents here). It's sad to see what other people can get away with. Look at what it does to the one being taken advantage of. Believe it or not, the chances are that either the OW/OM or the W/H are the ones being taken for suckers, hardly ever the "cake-eater".

 

Yes, some relationships here have ended in bliss, but how many? a handful?

 

Either get the help needed, find yourself a single partner... but to deal with all this drama and waste your life it's just very unfortunate for those who choose to live like this. There is a saying in spanish that goes...

"what has spoiled-gets trashed". For that be alone or dont cry ove the spilled milk!

 

And like I said... No pun intended. I am sure that most of you are beautiful gals that dont deserve to be in the drama that some are in.

[MimiMe]

Mimi we are not YOUR OW and every situation here is not YOURS.

 

 

I'll tell you this much.... Any similarity to reality may be just pure coincidence then.

 

A's have the same logistic- Player, Playee, and the doormat. Sometimes ALL are players (there are some here), and H/W can be both playing the field and the OP be the doormat who has to deal with the mental discharge of the MM/MW. And sometimes there is more than one playee. Combinations could be infinite but the factors are all the same. No?

[Lookingforward]

I'll tell you this much.... Any similarity to reality may be just pure coincidence then.

 

A's have the same logistic- Player, Playee, and the doormat. Sometimes ALL are players (there are some here), and H/W can be both playing the field and the OP be the doormat who has to deal with the mental discharge of the MM/MW. And sometimes there is more than one playee. Combinations could be infinite but the factors are all the same. No?

 

That said, you seem to be missing the point of this board which is for "discussion and SUPPORT". How can those in this situation post questions, ask for advice etc if they are going to be flamed as soon as they post for simply being IN that situation?

[JMC]

PG, I feel for you so much.....I didn't progress that far with my MM but that pain and confusion is so familiar to me.

 

Most of all though, above everything, I admire you for posting so vulnerably here...you must have some trust in people here to do that, and it must be stronger than any fear from any critics.

 

You seem like a sweetie and I wish you so much luck in this.

[MimiMe]

That said, you seem to be missing the point of this board which is for "discussion and SUPPORT". How can those in this situation post questions, ask for advice etc if they are going to be flamed as soon as they post for simply being IN that situation?

 

 

ok, ok, My bad . I'll just stick to the code of conduct.

[nadiaj2727]

Nadia, we're sounding more and more alike! I too grew up in a typical Christian household; but none of my family know that I have fully deviated from that path yet, and it's taken me a long time to get over some of the wounds that were inflicted as a result of my upbringing (some as a result of religion, others were miscellaneous). I swear, were we twins separated at birth or something?!

 

Yeah really maybe we were twins LOL. I've realized that a part of me always openly rebelled against the religious dogma that was crammed down my throat. Another part of me was very secretive in rebelling. I had to be really, really sneaky to do anything "normal" kids did (like go to the movies or go on a date etc.) and I became really good at lying to my dad and making up complete BS about my whereabouts and covering my tracks etc. I have found that this habits continue into my adult relationships. I get a "thrill" out of being secretive and I can't be happy with a "normal" relationship where there is no need to be sneaky. I rebel against authority and also against acceptance. It's like I *crave* acceptance from parental/authority figures (hence entering into a "relationship" with a man 20 years older than me and in a very powerful position at my job and being so elated that my "hero" seems to know me so well and admire everything about me, too), but at the same time I rebel against acceptance within a "normal" relationship (like the one I had with my ex-fiance who was very supportive and accepting of me, without the hero worship and drama) because I was brought up never being accepted. It's like I want what I can't have, and then when I have it, I don't want it.

 

At this point I am just trying to understand myself. I hope later I will be able to let my past go and find my way to a happy, normal future. I am definitely much happier now as an OW but I still carry around a lot of guilt and baggage inside. I want to be a phoenix too I guess.