Never been the OTHER man before

[virtuzoso]

So, I have this friend/former coworker. Known her about a year and a half. I've had a minor crush on her for a while. A couple of months ago she seemed like she was interested, so I tried to date her. It started out ok, but she ended up choosing another guy. However, in the mean time, the sexual tension between us shot through the roof, so to speak. Lots of flirting, innuendo, you know the usual. We are pretty different people, but lots of chemistry. We became even better friends than before, talked alot more than we used too.

 

My instinct tells me she chose her current BF because he's safe; He's what is expected by her peers and her parents- I'm not downing him, im just stating the facts. I dont really know him, nor do I care- its not in my agenda. But my theory is she chose him because its what is expected. Oh, I am sure she does like him, but the fact that he's safe and approved by her friends and parents is a major factor. Maybe more than it should be. Me, on the other hand, is not what most people would expect of her- I'm older, I'm way different than what most of her peers would expect. I feel pretty strongly that her parents and peer approval is what affected her decision the most.

 

Alot of the time, I will get complaints about her BF- I usually do not indulge them; After all, I dont really want to be the guy soaking up the complaints. I will acknowledge the complaints, but I dont get into offering advice or discussing them. I dont disparage the guy. I play it even handedly. She's told me he's a homebody, he never wants to go out ( she's very outgoing), he's dumb ( yes, she said this) and she is quite intelligent, he's bad at sex ( she's a very sexual person) and she's worried about his career choice.

 

Recently, the flirting and innuendo had been getting turned up a bit. And we have been talking alot more often. Last week, we talked around around an hour or so almost every night right before she went to sleep. Now, I have been single a while, but i'd say most people speak to thier Significant Other usually before they go to sleep. It felt a bit odd, at least that I was getting the phonecalls at midnight. The week ended with her telling me on the phone that she didnt feel like going home- I invited her to stay over, she did. We ended up sleeping together.

 

Now, this is COMPLETELY new to me. I myself have never cheated on my past GF's before, but I have always been openminded about relationships. I'm going to keep doing what I have been doing. My life has been improving dramatically for the last few months as I have been on a huge self improvement crusade and is going to keep improving, I dont know how long the BF's 'safeness' is gonna be able to outweigh that.

 

Anyone that wants to weigh in, go ahead, this is a new experience for me.

[whichwayisup]

You are her 'fall to guy'. Stop being there, listening to her, letting her vent. She may bitch and complain about him to you, but she is still with him.

 

Once you back off and tell her that you can't be her 'fall to guy' she may see that she's got a choice to make. As long as you're 'there' for her, feeding her emotional needs with friendship, she isn't going to break up with her boyfriend to be with you. Obviously she still is getting something from him, likes him alot. She's still with him!

 

Don't believe all she's telling you about him being bad in bed. If he was that bad and if she was that unhappy, she'd end it, reguardless of what her friends and family would think.

 

She's told me he's a homebody, he never wants to go out ( she's very outgoing), he's dumb ( yes, she said this) and she is quite intelligent, he's bad at sex ( she's a very sexual person) and she's worried about his career choice.

 

So, her parents would rather her be with someone like that? I think she's pulling a stunt on you about that one...If this guy is "safe" choice for her, don't you think he would be "more" than meets the eye? The way you've described him, well, he's no prize to show off..

[Jess-Belle]

My life has been improving dramatically for the last few months as I have been on a huge self improvement crusade and is going to keep improving, I dont know how long the BF's 'safeness' is gonna be able to outweigh that.

 

Anyone that wants to weigh in, go ahead, this is a new experience for me.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your goal is to 'outdo' the current BF and win the girl.

 

As a woman who played the 'safe BF' game for years and years, I will have to say, that isn't a very good idea. Someone who is choosing their SO on the basis of their being 'safe' isn't exactly in their right mind -- and you could wind up very hurt as a result. Not only that, but you shouldn't want to be with a relationship-jumper either.

 

I'll relay to you my very similar story: I was with a guy who was 'safe' to me in every possible imaginable way -- this despite the fact that I was not satisfied. I met my now current bf, and there was instantaneous passion. But since all I cared about was me and what was safe for me, yaddah yaddah, I didn't want to let go of the other guy, I strung the new one along, while all he wanted was me, to be good enough for me. Lots of damage, lots of pain. Even after I split with the first bf, I still didn't want to commit to my now bf because I didn't perceived him as 'safe'. After two years of this, by a stroke of good fortune really, I had an epiphany about how I was living my life and began a complete overhaul on myself. By this time though, a whole lot of damage had been done, both me to him, and him to me. However, our deep feelings for each other prevailed, and we've remained committed to repairing our relationship.

 

I love him deeply and am very happy we're together, but part of me wishes he'd had the good sense not to get involved with me. He had the same clues you have now: the infidelity, the being with someone for safety's sake (which I even admitted to him). As a result the well was poisoned so to speak, and not only that but he lives haunted with the initial perception of me as a liar and a cheater. We're in therapy now working through this.

 

Be prepared to deal with these issues if you decide to remain involved.

[jton30]

Just a word of advice to be cautious of playing the comparison game and creating a competition between you and her BF. You probably don't fully understand the complex emotional reasons why she's with him. Neither do you want to discount or discredit your own unique worth by basing it on her choice of mate. You could very likely be a better person, a better fit and a better choice, but that doesn't necessarily mean things go your way.

 

I've been there and severely questioned myself because she continues to choose a guy she claims makes her miserable. It helps to realize that people often select partners who aren't all that worthwhile for reasons that have nothing to do with you.

[D-Lish]

I guess how I answer depends on what you want from this girl.

 

If you want to end up being the one who is her boyfriend and this ends up being the case- say she dumps him and you end up being an item.... I'd be wondering about her having late night phone conversations and ultimately having sex with someone else behind your back....

[virtuzoso]

I wouldn't say my goal is to outdo her BF, or even compete with him..... I'm just trying to understand the situation a little better I suppose. I find it odd that she's calling me to talk about her mundane stuff like how her day went, how the calc exam went, how work was. Seems to me that is BF talk- especially when its every night right before you go to sleep. When I talk to my other friends, it got a whole different feeling, you know? I guess my dilemma is that I *know* that this girl is prob gonna be bad news for me at this stage in her life, but I just cannot seem to control myself.

 

I dont believe I am the 'go-to guy'. Mostly because she will say a complaint about her BF and I will barely acknowledge it- It never gets discussed. She said the other night that he doesnt even French kiss- I said, "really? thats hard to believe." NEXT TOPIC

 

To explain a bit more about her 'safe' choice; We live in the southern US, the bible belt. She and her family are your typical religious family. If you;ve never lived in the south it can be hard to understand, but like alot of religious people, they take religion seriously when its convenient, the rest of the time they bend the rules. ie; sex before marriage, infidelity, drinking, etc. So in this region, people like this expect a certain type of behavior- they expect you to be religious ( or at least appear to be), they expect you to dress a certain way, listen to certain types of music, act a certain way. I wouldnt label it as typical red-state type of people, but thats getting close

 

Me, on the other hand, I dont fit any of that stereotype really- I'm not religious ( almost anti-religious), I dont conform to what most people expect. I'm outside of the norm. Not that I am a tatooed hippie freak or anything you would do a double take on if you passed me on the street. I'm pretty normal looking, but a nonconformist and independent spirit. I believe pretty strongly if it were not for social conditioning, I may not be the Other Guy.

 

I guess I'm just trying to make sense of it. I'm not even sure that I'd want her as a GF- I dont like labels anyways, I prefer a more open relationship, at least at the beginning. I guess what's really messing me up is that I am genuinely interested in her as a person, but me also being a guy with a healthy sexual appetite, sex is also always on my agenda. Every time I talk to her or we get together for anything, I dont want it to feel like I am just trying to get in her pants. I am, but thats not ALL i am doing, if that makes sense.

[carhill]

Why analyze? Flirt and go for it. You have no inhibitions in this regard and apparently don't see her as a long-term prospect. Why all the angst? Leave that to me

[virtuzoso]

Nah, I am not getting too angst about it, but its a completely new experience for me ( and for any of my friends, so I cant get advice from them either). I dont see her as a long term relationship right now, but definitely as a long term friend that could be one eventually. Its pretty new to me and I was really worried about coming off as just wanting to be around her just for sex, which definitely is not my only reason ( not even the main reason).

[carhill]

If you have sex as the OM, I doubt a "friend" will be the long-term result. Happy to be wrong!

 

Trust me, I have some experience here and chose a different path. Not saying it's any better, but there are alternatives.

 

Better to pursue someone who is available. When the opportunity presents, I will follow my own advice

[norajane]

Nah, I am not getting too angst about it, but its a completely new experience for me ( and for any of my friends, so I cant get advice from them either). I dont see her as a long term relationship right now, but definitely as a long term friend that could be one eventually. Its pretty new to me and I was really worried about coming off as just wanting to be around her just for sex, which definitely is not my only reason ( not even the main reason).

 

Friend? You don't want to be her friend. And you are having sex with her while she cheats on her bf. In no universe are you and this girl going to end up long term friends.

 

She's using you. She's not going to date you - she's going to date her approved bf who probably isn't as bad as all that, just inexperienced. But she will use you as her back-up guy since you are open to it.

 

If you don't care about actually being her bf, and you don't care if you're the kind of guy who craps on someone else's territory, and you don't care that you are with someone who is willing to cheat on her bf, then, hey, you're exactly where you want to be.

[virtuzoso]

Friend? You don't want to be her friend. And you are having sex with her while she cheats on her bf. In no universe are you and this girl going to end up long term friends.

 

She's using you. She's not going to date you - she's going to date her approved bf who probably isn't as bad as all that, just inexperienced. But she will use you as her back-up guy since you are open to it.

 

How do you know what I really want? Pardon me for saying so, but you seem really bitter and judgemental. I've got absolutely no reason to lie. As a matter of fact, I just wrote to myself in my daily journal that that is precisely what I want. If I'm lying here, im also lying to myself. I enjoy being her friend, regardless of sex or not. I have high hopes but low expectations that we will ever have a serious relationship. If I were God in my own world, i'd change things, but I am not, so this is me trying to cope with it.

[norajane]

How do you know what I really want? Pardon me for saying so, but you seem really bitter and judgemental. I've got absolutely no reason to lie. As a matter of fact, I just wrote to myself in my daily journal that that is precisely what I want. If I'm lying here, im also lying to myself. I enjoy being her friend, regardless of sex or not. I have high hopes but low expectations that we will ever have a serious relationship. If I were God in my own world, i'd change things, but I am not, so this is me trying to cope with it.

 

I'm only going by what you wrote. And having sex with a girl when she's cheating on her bf does not equate to friendship.

[virtuzoso]

We were already friends. Does a friendship suddenly dissapear because you had sex? Maybe your's do. I'm hoping mine doesnt. I've known her for 2 years. What you're saying is we are no longer friends because we have had sex... That seems like crazy talk to me. No offense, but it seems to me you take a pretty agressive view towards cheating of any kind. I'm not necesarily defending cheating, but my attitude toward it is much more open, obviously. I'm definitely no saint, but I'm not about to beat myself up.

 

I'm not trying to claim innocence or anything like that. Cheating is not the issue here. I posted because I am unsure of how to proceed and was hoping someone with more experience would give some advice instead of judging me ( or her). I'm gonna do whatever I can to continue the friendship. Problem is, we have always had alot of chemistry and sexual tension for almost the entire time we have known each other. Sex is bound to come up again at some point, I was just unsure of how I should approach it now. If I had to choose between having sex again and keeping the friendship, id choose friendship. But I dont believe thats a choice that is going to need to be made.

[carhill]

Sex changes a platonic friendship, even if both parties were attracted to each other prior. Intimacy just changes things, especially if it ends. There's usually a reason for it ending, and that reason affects the friendship.

 

Now, it is possible to find a woman who compartmentalizes and such progression might be possible with her (she would keep the sex in its box separate from the friendship box), but I've met very few women in my lifetime with brains wired that way.

 

Let us know how it works out. As I said, happy to be wrong

[Phateless]

If you want to make a GF out of her you need to speak up now. Don't tolerate being the "other guy" because she won't respect you.

 

Besides, she did it to him, she'll do it to you. Take this as a challenge during your crusade and realize that you deserve and can get better than her. If you had 10 other girls waiting on you, would you be wasting time with this one? NO.

 

Get out there and meet 10 other women, which I believe, is the cure for being hung up on one. I know you know what I"m talking about...

[norajane]

I'm saying friendship is not ALL you want from her. And I'm saying, that yes, when this all blows up, your friendship will not survive.

 

Cheating IS the issue. If she weren't cheating, you wouldn't have this issue in the first place, would you?

 

If you truly want to remain friends, you're better of backing off the sex.

[nadiaj2727]

How do you know what I really want? Pardon me for saying so, but you seem really bitter and judgemental. I've got absolutely no reason to lie. As a matter of fact, I just wrote to myself in my daily journal that that is precisely what I want. If I'm lying here, im also lying to myself. I enjoy being her friend, regardless of sex or not. I have high hopes but low expectations that we will ever have a serious relationship. If I were God in my own world, i'd change things, but I am not, so this is me trying to cope with it.

 

I didn't see any judgment or bitterness in norajane's post, just her honest opinion, and I don't understand why you'd want to be "friends" with this girl either. Call me bitter and judgmental too then. Why do you ask for advice, and specifically invite ANYONE to WEIGH IN here, and then call people who weigh in bitter and judgmental? Why do you come here if you don't want to hear what people really think about your situation? Why personally attack people you don't even know, who are just trying to HELP you by answering a question YOU posted?? I don't get it.

 

And as far as lying to yourself... I believe the worst lies are the ones we tell ourselves. It doesn't make sense to me that you would "want" to be her friend and in the same breath you're saying you're trying to "cope" with it. I don't have to "cope" with any of my friendships, know what I mean? Frienship should not be a "fall back" position to REALLY wanting to be in a relationship/ having sex with someone.... that's not good for anyone involved. Friendship should be genuine and sincere on its own merits, not because you're really hoping for someone else.

 

I just wanted to "weigh in" with my two cents' worth... sorry if I sound bitter and judgmental, I'm just a regular gal.

[virtuzoso]

I appreciate norajane's input, but my impression is that the very hostile attitude towards cheating makes the help a bit cloudy. I'm not meaning to be attacking anyone trying to help. My apologies.

 

 

 

And as far as lying to yourself... I believe the worst lies are the ones we tell ourselves. It doesn't make sense to me that you would "want" to be her friend and in the same breath you're saying you're trying to "cope" with it. I don't have to "cope" with any of my friendships, know what I mean? Frienship should not be a "fall back" position to REALLY wanting to be in a relationship/ having sex with someone.... that's not good for anyone involved. Friendship should be genuine and sincere on its own merits, not because you're really hoping for someone else.

 

I just wanted to "weigh in" with my two cents' worth... sorry if I sound bitter and judgmental, I'm just a regular gal.

 

 

That makes sense, but what you are saying is its ALL or NOTHING with this relationship. I don't know that that is the best approach, but I will definitely consider it. I've known her through 3 boyfriends now. Before her last one, while she was single briefly, myself and her current boyfriend were competing for her attention. Like I've already said, I feel that her 'safe' boyfriend won out mostly because of social pressure. Oh, I am sure there is more to it than that, but that is a huge part of it. As a matter of fact, I have been told her mother wouldnt let her date me. There is a decent age difference between us, and knowing that her mother IS a bit shallow, it seems very likely.

 

What I am saying is that we truly were friends for a long time. One day while she was single, it kind of clicked in my head like a switch, "hey, maybe there is something MORE here". I got to know her much better in the past few months, which makes our relationship, whatever it is, that much more valuable to me. It seems selfish to me to just completely toss all that out the window just because of an ultimatum. It's GF or nothing! I'm not sure how that would help, but if you feel like it, you're welcome to elaborate.

 

AS far as cheating goes, well, I do not have much experience with cheating or being cheated on, but I can tell you her one of her previous boyfriend she dated for 2 years. That guy cheated on her several times, which lead to thier breakup, and her next boyfriend also cheated on her. Until this point, she had never cheated on any BF. Current BF, well I feel that its a combination of being cheated on and not being all that *in* to him thats lead to her becoming a cheater. Maybe I'm being delusional, but this makes sense to me

 

 

 

Get out there and meet 10 other women, which I believe, is the cure for being hung up on one. I know you know what I"m talking about...

 

I do know exactly what you mean, but its.... hard. Im trying though

[norajane]

I appreciate norajane's input, but my impression is that the very hostile attitude towards cheating makes the help a bit cloudy. I'm not meaning to be attacking anyone trying to help. My apologies.

 

I've been on a number of different sides of the cheating equations over the years, and in my experience, no matter what your role is in the equation, you will get hurt.

 

In your position, you want a relationship with this girl. And being the OM, you think you're getting the best part of her, especially since you started out as friends and especially since she disparages her bf to you. Thing is, despite all that, one day you're going to realize that no, actually, you're not getting what you want at all, and you're going to start to resent her for having to sneak around and lie and hide and remain in the background while she dates someone else and, worst of all, as you wait, wait, wait, wait and wait for her to be there for YOU in the way you want her. When that starts to happen, the friendship you had before will suffer, you will suffer, and things will blow up in your face.

 

I'm trying to help you see that so that you protect yourself by stepping back from the ledge. This friendship will not survive an affair, unless it's 100% on her terms, terms which will make you unhappy.

 

Ask yourself, why does she have to have a boyfriend at all? Especially since she's not so fond of him? Why can't she remain single and do the friends with benefits thing with you, even if no one else knows about it? Why has she put you in this position where you are her guy on the side? She could easily break up with her bf and see you without anyone knowing. But she's not doing that. Which should cause you to question how much respect she has for you, your feelings, and your friendship. Which should cause you to see that her behavior is a bit self-serving and not about your best interests at all. All this thought you are putting into it...is she?

Edited March 4, 2008 by norajane

[Phateless]

I do know exactly what you mean, but its.... hard. Im trying though

 

Hey bro, it's all an opportunity to learn, experiment, and adjust. Just keep at it and you'll get there.

[jton30]

It seems selfish to me to just completely toss all that out the window just because of an ultimatum. It's GF or nothing!

 

Just my own personal experience but - I have gone down this path before and unfortunately it tends to not be as easy in reality as it sounds in theory. Once a closer, sexual relationship develops there are emotional ties and expectations which materialize. Whereas in a friendship you may not expect a friend to call you back within the day or be readily available to go out with you some evening, you DO expect that from a girlfriend. Likewise, once the sexual threshhold is crossed, putting that genie back in the bottle is a problem.

 

I *have* successfully reverted girlfriend relationships back into friendships but it takes a lot of maturity and willingness on both sides and it doesn't come overnight. Even then, there is still the ever-present ambiguity around the nature of the relationship.

[ladyintights]

Does it make you feel more masculine or more of a man to steal another guy's girlfriend? You sicken me. Why doesn't this trollop break up with him first before sleeping around??

[Phateless]

Does it make you feel more masculine or more of a man to steal another guy's girlfriend? You sicken me. Why doesn't this trollop break up with him first before sleeping around??

 

Hey man, it's not right, but it's HER fault, not his. Yeah it's unclassy of him, but it's her decision to break her relationship.

[virtuzoso]

Why doesn't this trollop break up with him first before sleeping around??

 

I don't know, you'd have to ask her. I would have prefered that. I definitely DONT understand it well, hence , I am here, posting about it. I didn't pressure her at all, so the ball was and still is in her court. It's her decision. I do not really consider people as sacred territory belonging to someone else. Except in the case of marriage, where If I ever were in that situation, I'd consider it much more seriously.

[norajane]

I don't know, you'd have to ask her. I would have prefered that. I definitely DONT understand it well, hence , I am here, posting about it. I didn't pressure her at all, so the ball was and still is in her court. It's her decision. I do not really consider people as sacred territory belonging to someone else. Except in the case of marriage, where If I ever were in that situation, I'd consider it much more seriously.

 

Ever heard of empathy? Being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes?

 

Might want to give it some thought and consider whether you really want to be a part of something that's going to hurt someone else. What goes around comes around, and you may become all too familiar with her bf's shoes one day if she tires of you and moves on to someone else.

 

Because of her past experiences with cheating, she may feel it's her 'right' to do as she pleases since she's been hurt. Be her friend and remind her that treating people like crap isn't exactly the best way to go through life. And tell her you don't want any part of it because you don't like being with someone who treats others' feelings as though they don't matter. Especially since one day, it might be your feelings she treats like they don't matter.