Is this morally wrong?

[MarilynM]

I recently started dating a wonderful man, around two months ago. He inferred that he was divorced and him and his wife had split up two years ago. I actually then found out recently that he was in fact separated, not divorced and that the separation possibly took place around a year ago and a bit ago, not two years, he says he cannot remember exactly how long it is.

 

I was feeling very confused about being lied to and of course my first instinct was to finish things immediately. But this man assured me that in his own mind he felt divorced and hadn't really given it any thought about only being separated, because as far as he was concerned, his marriage was well and truly dead because his wife had an affair and he threw her out of the marital home.

 

I feel that it is morally wrong for us to remain together while this man is still actually married although him and his wife do not live together and he says there is no chance whatsoever of them reconciling. Should I leave this man now and walk away from this? He says me loves me but everything is going so fast and I am very concerned about the fact that he does not appear to have been entirely honest with me. Although some of it was my incorrect assumptions, he let me proceed with those wrong assumptions and did not make the situation completely clear to me from the outset.

 

Also, this man is still in contact with his wife (I believe via phone calls and IM) and members of her family. I have questioned again and again, what is really going on here, are you actually properly separated and are you getting divorced. He says he is definitely getting divorced but prefers to do it on the grounds of two years separation rather than his wife's adultery. If someone cheated on me within a marriage, I would not be waiting two years to get divorced, I would do it immediately. So why has he been waiting all this time? I fear that maybe he still loves his wife and won't admit it. He denies this completely and says he will NEVER get back with her.

 

Any advice appreciated.

[child_of_isis]

I don't even think this is possible is it?

he threw her out of the marital home.

[MarilynM]

Yes, he told her to go and she agreed to go and accepted that she was in the wrong, regardless of the legal position.

[child_of_isis]

She agreed to go?...hmmmm....

 

Maybe she went with her affair partner.

 

That could be the reason for the separation and not a divorce. He could be waiting to see if she snaps out of it.

 

You need to check out this guys story a bit more. Something is off here.

 

Yes, he told her to go and she agreed to go and accepted that she was in the wrong, regardless of the legal position.

[ICallsEmAsISeesEm]

But this man assured me that in his own mind he felt divorced and hadn't really given it any thought about only being separated, because as far as he was concerned, his marriage was well and truly dead because his wife had an affair and he threw her out of the marital home.

What a crock of BULL.

 

BULL.

 

Divorce is expensive, emotionally exhausting, and a LEGAL proceeding that many don't soon forget. What utter BULL that he conveniently FORGOT he hadn't made that legal move yet.

 

Freakin' LIAR.

 

Should I leave this man now and walk away from this?

Anyone who LIES right from the start has something to HIDE. He showed you ZERO respect when he lied to you. Zero.

 

He says he is definitely getting divorced but prefers to do it on the grounds of two years separation rather than his wife's adultery.

Oh, I see. His WIFE was the 'bad guy' in their marriage - YET, he's always in touch with her? Funny, that. And the divorce - that he CONVENIENTLY forgot to tell you about because in HIS mind it's already done - is all of a sudden VERY PLANNED OUT because he's waiting for that 2-year separation, is he? Funny how he jumps from FORGETTING he's divorced to suddenly having a calculated timeplan. God what a bullshi*tter this guy is.

 

So why has he been waiting all this time? I fear that maybe he still loves his wife and won't admit it.

The guy's a lying sack of SH*T. He's very much hoping to reconcile but playing YOU because he wants you as his "Plan B" if he's not successful getting his wife back. And I'd be willing to bet my right arm that it wasn't HER that did the cheating and caused the separation.

 

You already KNOW he's a liar. He lied to YOU by omission. That's still a LIE. He's sneaky, manipulative, deceitful, and full of SH*T.

 

I guarantee you'll regret it if you stay with this little weasel.

 

Your GUT is screaming to you for a reason. Don't ignore it.

Edited December 26, 2007 by ICallsEmAsISeesEm

[serial muse]

I'm not sure I'd buy the "separated for a year and a half-ish" story...there's no way, absolutely NO WAY, that a spouse who's been cheated on would not know to the HOUR when s/he decided to end it. He's lying about that, and he has lied about other stuff. Whatever else he's got going on or whatever his ultimate goals are, I wouldn't trust him. That said, it's absolutely possible that a person can be separated and consider themselves divorced; I did, and it's true that I had zero desire to reconcile with my exH. We were separated for a couple of years before I finally filed (I needed the health insurance), but we lived in different states and I spoke to him perhaps once that entire time.

 

However, the difference is that I never lied to anyone about my status, and when I did meet someone I was interested in, I decided the insurance wasn't worth being still tied to my ex, so I got my act together and filed.

 

Also - after two months he's in love?? That's a bit soon. There are a number of bright red flags here; I'd be careful.

[Art_Critic]

He denies this completely and says he will NEVER get back with her.

 

.. until she wants him back..

 

As far as the morality of his lying... moral codes are different for each person and whether or not it is moral should be up to you to decide.. it is your morals and values that are used for the basis of deciding if something is moral or not..

Moral to me might not be moral to you.. etc.. etc..

 

His story smells.. he has just lied to you.. why even debate it? Dump the chump.

 

He is doing more lying than you realize.. you have only caught him on those few..

 

Want honest answers?.. then speak to his wife.. otherwise kick the jerk to the curb for not being upfront and truthful with you..

 

Show him that you respect yourself as he obviously doesn't respect you or his wife enough to be honest...

Edited December 26, 2007 by Art_Critic

[silktricks]

If he lied about whether or not he was divorced he will lie about other things. Many more things. Remove him from your life now.

[Lizzie60]

You could give him the benefit of the doubt... maybe he's not sure exactly when they separated... if they were more like 'roomates' then he can feel that it's been longer than 15 months or so.

 

My last ex was separated when I met him... I know their marriage was over... they got divorced eventually...

 

I honestly don't think he lied to you on purpose... Maybe the 'date' is not that important to him... his marriage is over.. that's the main thing.

 

If you think it's against your morals to date him.. then stop... other than that, I don't see what's the big deal.. really..

 

He says he is definitely getting divorced but prefers to do it on the grounds of two years separation rather than his wife's adultery. If someone cheated on me within a marriage, I would not be waiting two years to get divorced, I would do it immediately.

 

You would.. but you're not HIM...

 

So why has he been waiting all this time?

 

What's the rush.. he will eventually get a divorce.. he knows what he wants... he wants it this way... I think his excuse is valid.

 

I fear that maybe he still loves his wife and won't admit it.

 

I doubt it very much.. I think you're waaayyy too insecure around him. Maybe he's not for you.

 

He denies this completely and says he will NEVER get back with her.

 

He's probably honest,... my last ex.. never went back with her... I knew that from the start...

 

Just relax... be confident.. if he truly loves you, he will do the right thing... just go with the flow... give him some time to do things the way he wants to do them...

[GreenEyedLady]

If you have to ask if it's morally wrong, then you probably shouldn't stay in the R because it's going to be something that you'll beat yourself up with. Some people believe it's morally wrong to even date until the ink is dried...Others think once you leave you're absolved of marital vows...But that you would even wonder if it's moral or not, then this probably isn't a good R to be in...

 

I think you should be asking yourself do I love him? Am I willing to wait for him to be free? Does he meet my needs or am I the one doing all the giving?

 

Lots of people don't D immediately...Some even have crazy arrangements like one lives half the week with the kids and then the other parent comes for the other half...There's lots of different scenarios out there and the person you should be asking about why it's taken so long is your MM...If he doesn't satisfy you with his answer or you just don't trust him, then you should end the R, because it won't last if it's built on distrust...

[nadiaj2727]

But this man assured me that in his own mind he felt divorced and hadn't really given it any thought about only being separated, because as far as he was concerned, his marriage was well and truly dead because his wife had an affair and he threw her out of the marital home.

 

Yeah, I've heard this before. My xMM separated (lived somewhere else) from his wife but didn't get divorced. When I asked him about it he would SWEAR to me that he WASN'T married because he didn't "feel" married. In his head he wasn't married, so he wasn't married.

 

Men who do this are in a deep fog and can't tell reality from fantasy. He insisted *I* was crazy when I said he was married. Of course, once I broke things off with him, he was like, "Hmmm, maybe there's a reason I wasn't divorced... perhaps I should go to counseling with my wife."

 

Men who do this are wimpy and don't know what they really want. They are hanging on to two women at once, and I'm sorry but they usually don't "love" either of them because they don't love themselves enough to do the right thing.

 

I was like, "Okay good. What about when you SWORE to me you weren't married anymore because you didn't feel married, and you made me feel crazy for saying you WERE, in fact, still married?"

 

He was like, "You're right, I'm still married, I just didn't want to admit it. I honestly didn't feel married, but now I realize I'm still married." (Uh huh, imagine that.)

 

Men like this can't do the right thing so they just pretend they're doing the right thing. They act on whim feelings instead of following a set of principles. You don't want a man like this. He's already lied to you, how do you know that anything he's saying is true??

 

When it comes to married men (run like hell, but if for some reason you're involved with one), believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see. Look at the facts with your head (he lied to you, he's still in contact with his wife, his stories don't make sense because they're BS), instead of listening to what he says. Men like this are manipulative and would say anything to get what they want. People are going to say "Oh you don't know about all married men, mine's different, my situation is so unique" but you know what? What they all have in common is that they are lying and cheating, so to me, they are all the same. They also dilude themselves and the women they're with into thinking they're somehow different -- they're good men who happen to be lying and cheating for some "justifiable" reason. *barf* Do you want to be involved with a man like this?? He is no good. Get out honey. You can do way better.

[frannie]

Personally, I'd be less concerned with the objective morality of it all (although if you think it's immoral and that bothers you, then that's important) and more concerned with the actuality of what is going on here.

 

I think you need to be concerned that he lied to you about his status, especially if he knew you wouldn't get involved with him if he was not divorced but only separated. He could easily have explained that to you and allowed you to make a choice.

 

I think that of more concern are the questions of whether he really wants the divorce, and whether he would change his mind should his W decide that she wants to reconcile. You need to know whether he 'threw her out' or she left him to be with her lover, for example.

 

Dating a separated man is full of risks. But if you are also dating a man who is 'economical with the truth' you are even more at risk and don't even know it.

 

I would try to ask more pointed questions of him, even if it's very uncomfortable for you. And the way he reacts (defensively? with anger? evasiveness) could tell you a lot about where you stand.

[MarilynM]

Hi Frannie, many thanks, you make good points.

 

The story I have been told is that he threw her out because she was having an affair. When I asked if she then moved in with the person she was having the affair with, he said he did not know. He also says he does not know even now if she has a partner or not. When I asked if he had told her he had a girlfriend, he said it was none of her business. All sounds a bit strange to me, you usually know when an ex has moved on.

 

He said even if his wife begged him tomorrow to try again and promised the earth, that he would NEVER consider it. He is also saying now that he will start the divorce first thing in the new year. But I still can't help feeling that this is wrong and he should not start the divorce purely because of him and I getting together, he should have started it before entering a new relationship and that would have proved that he definitely wanted to end the marriage.

 

All very confusing, although I have developed very strong feelings for him, my gut instinct is to walk away from this. But I have never met anyone like him in terms of how similar we are and don't think I ever will. He treats me better than anyone ever has and other than this one issue, there is nothing else that would put me off a relationship with him.

[Tomcat33]

It's not morally wrong he has been seperated long enough that they are no longer and item. They don't live together so more than likely they are no longer together. Now is it a problem for YOU? Well you need to answer that yourself.

 

I agree that he lied to you and that's wrong, bur (in his mind) had he told you the truth he probably expected you to write him off because he was seperated and not divorced. The majority of women run for the hills when they know a man is seperated and not divorced and in order to avoid losing out on a chance at love with a woman some of these mens feel the need to lie so they are not written off. I am not justifying why he lied but I can see why he did it.

 

Men lie about this in online dating profiles all the time for that very reason, their chances at love slim down next to none being seperated and not divorced, what they don't realise is that when they come clean about the lie they are back to square one anyway.

 

But I suppose it is no different than women that accepts booty calls hoping that some day the man will come to his senses and see her for who she is and fall in love with her, men in this scenario hope for the same, "if she eventually falls in love with me it will be harder for her to say goodbye when she finds out I am actually NOT divorced. But a lie is a lie is a lie.

 

The important thing is, does he act and live single? Or does he act and live like someone who is still married? A peice of paper is only that in the grand scheme of things. But if you really think it is going to do your head in wondering what if, you know the answer to your problem.

[serial muse]

Hmmm. Okay. I don't necessarily think it's a bad sign that someone files when they start a new relationship; inertia is powerful and sometimes you just need something to give you a kick in the butt. It will be a much bigger red flag if he doesn't file when he says he will.

 

But the thing that still worries me is his dishonesty...even if he's just lying to protect you or your feelings, or to avoid a confrontation, there's something off about that. For example - he's in contact both with her and with members of her family? And nobody's told him whether she's with someone, or whether she's living with him? That's very, VERY unlikely. Like I said, I was in a different state than my ex, but I knew where he was.

 

It may well be that he's just trying to avoid an emotional confrontation with you, because he knows that you want him to have more distance from her than he currently does, and since he thinks he's done with the marriage, he doesn't feel it necessary to give you all the details. And it may be that he'll just go ahead and file, and make it a non-issue.

 

But if there are no children, why is he still in contact with her? And since he is, why hasn't he told her about you, if he's going to bother to talk to her at all? Why must he lie in the first place about difficult things, rather than simply be up front (not just that he's not divorced, but also when they separated, whether he knows about her personal life, and so forth)? Things just don't add up well there.

 

Is that the sort of person you want to be in a relationship with?

[Tomcat33]

When I asked if she then moved in with the person she was having the affair with, he said he did not know. He also says he does not know even now if she has a partner or not. When I asked if he had told her he had a girlfriend, he said it was none of her business. All sounds a bit strange to me, you usually know when an ex has moved on.

 

He said even if his wife begged him tomorrow to try again and promised the earth, that he would NEVER consider it. He is also saying now that he will start the divorce first thing in the new year. But I still can't help feeling that this is wrong and he should not start the divorce purely because of him and I getting together, he should have started it before entering a new relationship and that would have proved that he definitely wanted to end the marriage.

 

All very confusing, although I have developed very strong feelings for him, my gut instinct is to walk away from this. But I have never met anyone like him in terms of how similar we are and don't think I ever will. He treats me better than anyone ever has and other than this one issue, there is nothing else that would put me off a relationship with him.

 

 

Woops I missed this last part:

 

sounds like he might still be in love with her and was holding on to not divorcing hoping she would come around at somce point or until he met someone new that could help him move on.

[frannie]

Hi Frannie, many thanks, you make good points.

 

The story I have been told is that he threw her out because she was having an affair. When I asked if she then moved in with the person she was having the affair with, he said he did not know. He also says he does not know even now if she has a partner or not. When I asked if he had told her he had a girlfriend, he said it was none of her business. All sounds a bit strange to me, you usually know when an ex has moved on.

 

He said even if his wife begged him tomorrow to try again and promised the earth, that he would NEVER consider it. He is also saying now that he will start the divorce first thing in the new year. But I still can't help feeling that this is wrong and he should not start the divorce purely because of him and I getting together, he should have started it before entering a new relationship and that would have proved that he definitely wanted to end the marriage.

 

All very confusing, although I have developed very strong feelings for him, my gut instinct is to walk away from this. But I have never met anyone like him in terms of how similar we are and don't think I ever will. He treats me better than anyone ever has and other than this one issue, there is nothing else that would put me off a relationship with him.

 

Well I think that gut instincts should never be ignored.

 

I'm wondering however, whether you mean walk away because he lied to you and you feel you can't trust him, or walk away because you feel he should do whatever he has to do before you date?

 

Really, since you've only known him two months, and he was in no hurry to divorce (I'm in the UK, and 2 years is pretty normal here), and now you're saying that you find it immoral to be involved with him unless he IS divorced... how can he act in a way that suits you?

 

IF he starts divorce proceedings now, you say you think he is only doing it for you, and that's bad..? But if he doesn't, that's also bad..? If he can't act in a way that satisfies you then he's really got no chance, has he..?

 

Or are you just through with him because he lied to begin with?

[frannie]

Yes, and just to add that I agree with SM's reservations stated above. You do need to find out more about his 'relationship' with his W.

 

Have you met any of his family? Do they know about you?

[Art_Critic]

He is also saying now that he will start the divorce first thing in the new year.

 

Good luck with that.. he seems to have quite a bit of things that come off as suspect.

 

I some how can't believe that he is wanting to start the divorce.. you are only getting part of the story and a distorted view at that.

 

The other thing to remember is that starting a divorce is easier than finishing one.

He may start a divorce without filing or serving papers just to appease you and keep the sex coming in all the while never plan on really finishing anything..

 

Since you really don't know the specifics of their relationship and you are getting bad vibes then why not just move on to someone else ?.. you haven't got a lot of time invested and he doesn't seem invested either..

[MarilynM]

Frannie, I see your point entirely about none of the options being good. I'm in the UK too but I don't think 2 years separated is normal, with no divorce, when one party has been cheated on and has no intention of reconciliation. That's why I think he hasn't been entirely honest about his real feelings for his wife because if he really had no intention of getting back with his wife, why would he not get divorced immediately after being cheated on?

 

He does live and act like a single man, I've spent loads of time at his place, including full weekends and weeknights, I know for sure that they are not still living together. But I agree that it is strange he is still in contact with his ex and members of her family. A distant member of her family phoned his house when I was there and he claimed that they just didnt have her number. This is after he claims they have been split for nearly 2 years. He then phoned her straight away and told her about the phone call, then they had a chat about general stuff, like christmas plans etc. He already knew she was going away because he asked when was she going, so it was clear they had discussed it before. When he hung up, she then phoned him back five minutes later "for a chat". He did not even mention that he was with his girlfriend and when I later asked why did he not mention the divorce at that point, he got angry and told me if I kept bringing it up, we would split up. I replied, fine by me, because if you have no intentions of dissolving the marriage then you clearly still have feelings for your wife and should not be in a relationship with me. He apologised later but that doesn't change anything, to my mind, it's very possible that there are still feelings there, which he denies extremely strongly.

 

The only contact I think he should have with his ex is discussions about the divorce. He is still in touch with her siblings yet claims he doesnt know if she has a partner. I really smell a rat here yet he seems utterly sincere with me. I'm so confused.

[Art_Critic]

He has yet to tell you the truth about anything.. isn't that a big red flag to you ?..

 

2 years separated.. hummmmmmm..That is an awfully long time.. yet her family still calls him.. even distant members. I'll bet he is recently separated

Is he really worth losing your self respect over ?.. only to have him go back to his wife..

[frannie]

Frannie, I see your point entirely about none of the options being good. I'm in the UK too but I don't think 2 years separated is normal, with no divorce, when one party has been cheated on and has no intention of reconciliation. That's why I think he hasn't been entirely honest about his real feelings for his wife because if he really had no intention of getting back with his wife, why would he not get divorced immediately after being cheated on?

 

He did not even mention that he was with his girlfriend and when I later asked why did he not mention the divorce at that point, he got angry and told me if I kept bringing it up, we would split up. I replied, fine by me, because if you have no intentions of dissolving the marriage then you clearly still have feelings for your wife and should not be in a relationship with me. He apologised later but that doesn't change anything, to my mind, it's very possible that there are still feelings there, which he denies extremely strongly.

 

The only contact I think he should have with his ex is discussions about the divorce. He is still in touch with her siblings yet claims he doesnt know if she has a partner. I really smell a rat here yet he seems utterly sincere with me. I'm so confused.

 

I don't know, MM, I have at least one male friend who is separated, still married, and very much NOT going back to his W. You say, why not divorce, and my friend says: why divorce? It's economically better not to bother if you have no reason to divorce. However, that's not the point is it? The point is that for some reason your MM is getting angry when you bring it up (a question I asked earlier: does he get defensive or angry?) and actually threatened you with breaking up if you mention it again.

 

All in all I'm not surprised your gut is telling you not to be involved with him. I think he's obviously lying about quite a bit here. Not being open with you about how things stand, and most importantly anger and threats if you ask him perfectly normal questions about divorce.

 

Since you've only been involved with him for two months really, I know you have fallen for him, but it's somewhat under false pretenses... just reading about it here makes me uneasy for you.

[serial muse]

Since you've only been involved with him for two months really, I know you have fallen for him, but it's somewhat under false pretenses... just reading about it here makes me uneasy for you.

 

Me too. Like I said, I know first-hand that it's entirely possible to be separated for an extended period of time with no intention of reconciliation (and I was a BS). However...that's not what the real issue is here. If he's that chit-chatty with her, he KNOWS if she's with someone, he HASN'T told her about you - that's really worrisome. And I totally agree that acting defensive is not a good sign.

 

I think it might be worth thinking about saying to him that while you care a lot about him, you're not comfortable with the relationship under the present circumstances, because he doesn't seem to be able to fully cut ties with his past yet. If and when he does, he can give you a call.

 

Even if nothing untoward is going on, he's creating an atmosphere of uncertainty and mixed signals, and that's painful. And you're only two months in!

[MarilynM]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Ok, an update. I discussed this again with my boyfriend and said that I was not comfortable with continuing the relationship unless he kicked off divorce proceedings - as he says he has always intended to do, but never got around to it.

 

So, last week, he arranged to meet his wife, I was at his home before he left and he got dressed up and off he went to meet her. He said that he would fill in the divorce petition whilst with her. Later on, he called me and said it went well. They spent approx 3 hours together but he did not fill in the petition because "she didn't want to do it there and then". Also, apparently it was decided not to file for divorce on the grounds of his wife's adultery because "she thought it sounded horrible" so they would go for breakdown of the marriage instead. He also offered to pay all the costs.

 

Him and I were supposed to meet later that evening for a meal. There was no answer from his phone and I could not get hold of him til later in the evening, almost midnight, when he claimed he had fallen asleep. We then arranged to go for a drink and I drove over to his place, on the way he texted to say he had gone out for a snack as he was hungry. When I walked round to where he said he was, he was walking from the opposite direction (and had changed into casual clothes). I said I wasn't sure I believed that he had fallen asleep and that he had been for a snack, where was the receipt? He did not have it. He ALWAYS keeps receipts.

 

I advised him to get legal advice about the financial part of the divorce as he earns a decent salary. He got very angry and defensive and insisted him and his ex could agree it between them and that "they are friends". This is the same woman who he tells me spent all his money for almost a decade and screwed around behind his back and lied straight to his face about it. They have no children and she cheated on him - why would he want to remain friends? We were in a pub at this point and he was shouting at me loudly. When we got outside, he continued shouting and when we got to his home, he threw some things about in the house and said I had made him really angry. I asked why was he angry about me giving him some sound, sensible advice since none of us can predict the future.

 

Later on, I asked once again, why I could not have his landline number at home and said I already knew it anyway. He said he never uses it and would not answer or even look at it if I rung. I said that it wasn't acceptable for me to have no means to contact him at home. Anyway, we had a major row, he stormed upstairs to bed, making it more or less clear that I wasn't welcome. I went upstairs a while later, he was asleep so I woke him and asked if he wanted me to stay or go home. He then started ranting at me again about the divorce stuff and how he didn't need legal advice. When I said yes he did because his wife was clearly untrustworthy, a liar and a cheat, his response was "well she gave a better blowjob than you".

 

I left at that point.

 

I just find this all totally unbelievable, from a man who totally insists he is over his wife, they have been separated for around 2 years and won't get back together. Also now, it seems I am being compared unfavourably to his ex. I really thought we had a future, especially when he said he would sort out the divorce and get everything done properly, then he goes and destroys my confidence by throwing a sexual comparison at me.

 

Would anyone here stay in a relationship with someone that insists on remaining friends with an ex (and her family) that they claimed cheated on them? If his wife really did cheat, why is he protecting her by refusing to file for adultery? Why is he offering to pay? I am beginning to wonder if I have been fed a pack of lies and that he is the cheat and his wife left him.

 

Any comments appreciated.

[Art_Critic]

He has yet to tell you anything but lies..

 

You need to talk to the wife if you want the truth.. he will not tell you thruth about any of it..

 

10-1 he never met with his STBW to talk about the divorce..

 

why are you being so gullible.. you don't trust him.. he doesn't treat you with any respect or at least enough to give you the truth..

 

Why not boot him out for a week or 2 and see if he comes to his senses ?