Liars??

[Can'tGiveUp]

I constantly read about how MM is lying to both OW and W. And of course, unless they have an amazingly open M, he is lying to W.

 

MM doesn't lie to me. We have been very open from the beginning. Yes, this was a deliberately started A. We had numerous conversations before we entered into a PA. He has never promised to leave W. I want him to leave her. End of discussion, we don't talk about it anymore.

 

Our discussions do include how we are feeling about what is happening, we talk about the guilt we feel and the pain that will hopefully only affect us. We are honest with each other and we do live in the present only. We will worry about the future when it comes.

 

But we don't lie to each other. Am I the only one? Do all the other MMs spin tales for the future? Or is it just others who need to believe that he lies to everyone?

[BenThereDunThat]

My (and I only use that word for the purpose of distinction here, don't jump on me for it) exMM never lied to the effect that he would leave his life.

 

But in reality, the whole thing was a lie. He knew I wanted more and felt that if he said all the right things, things he thought I needed to hear, that it would keep me coming back for more. I'm ashamed to admit that it worked for a brief time.

 

He actually felt somehow noble for never telling me he'd leave his wife. He put himself above it by doing so.

 

He wasn't. And never will be. I hope I was able to successfully convince him of that. Doubt it though.

[whichwayisup]

we talk about the guilt we feel and the pain that will hopefully only affect us.

 

The pain will affect EVERYBODY, whether they want it or not. Don't fool yourself into thinking that only you and him will be hurt. Self inflicted pain is completely different than undeserved pain.

 

Neither of you see this, but each of you are lying to yourselves. He's living a big fat lie and you're helping him. Also, if you want to believe he's always being honest with you - Just wait until his wife finds out about the affair. You'll see him do a 180. All that he's told you won't matter and one day you'll be left alone, trying to deal with the pain while he's off trying to make things right with his wife.

 

You're selling yourself short by staying with him. Get used to this life because he has no intention of leaving her, so you'll be the OW for as long as you choose to be.

 

I suppose he tells you he isn't sleeping with his wife, right? And you probably believe that she's a horrible and cruel person, which is why he's sought you out...

He's selfish and life is great for him!! He's got you and his wife feeding into his ego, meeting all his needs. Why would he give that up? Why are you settling to stay with a man who isnt' going to put you first.

 

I hope one day you wake up, get out and find a single man who can meet all your needs and be with you only.

[Can'tGiveUp]

Just wait until his wife finds out about the affair. You'll see him do a 180. All that he's told you won't matter and one day you'll be left alone, trying to deal with the pain while he's off trying to make things right with his wife.

 

You're selling yourself short by staying with him. Get used to this life because he has no intention of leaving her, so you'll be the OW for as long as you choose to be.

 

I suppose he tells you he isn't sleeping with his wife, right? And you probably believe that she's a horrible and cruel person, which is why he's sought you out...

He's selfish and life is great for him!! He's got you and his wife feeding into his ego, meeting all his needs. Why would he give that up? Why are you settling to stay with a man who isnt' going to put you first.

 

All that he's told me?? I guess you missed the point in the original post. He hasn't lied to me and I expect that he will try to make things right with her. And I will be the OW as long as I choose to be...another week, another six months, another two years...my choice.

 

Well...he hasn't said he's not sleeping with her and my assumption (right or wrong) is that their sex life follows the same pattern it did before. He has never said she is horrible and cruel. His M isn't perfect, nor is it all bad, according to him. I certainly have formed opinions of her based on what I know, but he has never bad mouthed her and when I am told of things she has said or done, I keep these opinions to myself. He knows what I think of his M and the reasons he is in it. I don't feel the need to reiterate my position.

[Catharsis]

Hi, I'm the "guest" who wrote this thread - you might want to read it to see where I'm coming from.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t101547/

 

My "exMM" (we never had a physical relationship, though he very much wanted so) painted a completely inaccurate picture of his W to me, thus leading me to believe that I was the one he really wanted to be with. He never downright bashed her, but he always refered to her as if she was just a nuisance, and as if he was only there because of the kids, etc. The usual BS they seem to feed the OW.

 

Only when I snooped did I find out that they were all love-dovey with each other, he refering to her as the love of his life, as being the luckiest man on earth to be with her, and she in kind thinks she married the greatest guy on the planet. Yet, while still making her believe that he would never cheat on his sugar plum, babydoll, and whatever terms of endearment they use for each other, he pretty much effs everything that is willing to give it up to him. And she has no clue whatsoever.

 

So yes, he lies - and I'm sure a lot of MM do. Nobody would give them the time of day if they went around telling everyone how great his M is, how much he loves his W, etc. But as soon as there is just a tiny glimmer of hope that he might. Even if they claim they are in an unhappy or at least dull M but would never leave, that still gives OW a challenge to make him love her so much he just HAS to leave his dull M.

 

Bottom line: if his M was really that dull/boring/cold/unfulfilling, they WOULD leave. It hurt to find out that this man who was my college sweetheart would be able to deceive and lie to me for a period of three years without as much as blinking. And I'm 100% sure, he would make me out to be the villain if his W ever found I as much as talked to him.

[GreenEyedLady]

MM have to lie to someone...I know mine lies to his W: how else could he explain his absence: "I'm spending the night at GEL's tonight?" I have never heard him lie to her, but I assume it...

 

He DEFINITELY lied to me when he said that he was divorced...

 

And I'm sure he lies to himself,"No one will get hurt." I have never heard him say this either, but I can assume that he tries to tell himself because now he feels caught in the middle.

 

So yes, MM lie...but from my experience: Men lie period...single, married, separated, divorced...they don't like confrontation and they don't want to see anyone cry...

[pricillia]

MM have to lie to someone...I know mine lies to his W: how else could he explain his absence: "I'm spending the night at GEL's tonight?" I have never heard him lie to her, but I assume it...

 

He DEFINITELY lied to me when he said that he was divorced...

 

And I'm sure he lies to himself,"No one will get hurt." I have never heard him say this either, but I can assume that he tries to tell himself because now he feels caught in the middle.

 

So yes, MM lie...but from my experience: Men lie period...single, married, separated, divorced...they don't like confrontation and they don't want to see anyone cry...

 

 

Yes green eyed...

 

you are right in fact all men lie to avoid confrontation.

[norajane]

Yes green eyed...

 

you are right in fact all men lie to avoid confrontation.

 

Add me to the confirmation list - they lie to avoid confrontation.

[Trialbyfire]

Both MM and OW are guilty of pretence. The pretence that what they're doing is justified in some way or that it will all work out. If you're an OW, you went into the A with due knowledge that he was married. Once you've taken this step, you deserve pretty much everything he dishes out. On the other hand, the MM deserves whatever lies you tell him. The only one who's innocent is the W. She's at home and being used by both of you.

 

It's one thing if he leaves her before anything happens and another if he goes into the A while still hanging onto the W. To hang on is a very selfish act on both your parts.

[Can'tGiveUp]

Both MM and OW are guilty of pretence. The pretence that what they're doing is justified in some way or that it will all work out. If you're an OW, you went into the A with due knowledge that he was married. Once you've taken this step, you deserve pretty much everything he dishes out. On the other hand, the MM deserves whatever lies you tell him. The only one who's innocent is the W. She's at home and being used by both of you.

 

It's one thing if he leaves her before anything happens and another if he goes into the A while still hanging onto the W. To hang on is a very selfish act on both your parts.

 

This really doesn't address the original question I posed. In fact you have now said that he and I lie to each other?? We don't and we won't. No matter how much the truth may hurt the other person. And we do know that we will both be hurt by this. And when the pain of being together is more than the pain of being apart, then it is over.

[puddleofmud]

Add me to the confirmation list - they lie to avoid confrontation.

 

This does seem to be a noted pattern; does it not? It would seem almost a generalization that too many men are experts at placation or turning things back to focus on why YOU are the one with a "problem". When one needs comfort, clarification or has questions, feels instinctively something is "off-balance", etc. seems to be when men are the most illusive by changing the subject with those deep endearments or SEX.

Or perhaps hanging up on you, threatening you, or telling you that YOU are acting insanely, and then convincing you that you the one w/ crazy thoughts.

 

The very thing we seek as validation seems to be what is more often most false. Very, very vicious cycle...and, sadly, something that makes future relationships difficult to navigate!

[Trialbyfire]

This really doesn't address the original question I posed. In fact you have now said that he and I lie to each other?? We don't and we won't. No matter how much the truth may hurt the other person. And we do know that we will both be hurt by this. And when the pain of being together is more than the pain of being apart' date=' then it is over.[/quote']

Actually, you are lying to each other every time you get together. If the two of you have a real relationship, he should be more than willing to leave his wife for you. As for you, you are lying to yourself that the relationship is worthwhile.

[NoIDidn't]

Honey,

 

Of course he is lying to you. Just because he did the noble thing of telling you up front that he wasn't leaving his M, doesn't mean that he doesn't or isn't lying to you. This is a man that has shut you down for really asking for what you want (you said you don't talk about him leaving anymore). This is a man that expects for you to be there for him, but he can't be there for you as he has already told you up front that you are not a priority (ie, his W).

 

What Trial said, was definitely related the question you asked. He IS guilty of pretence. He gets to make you feel like you are the only one for him for a moment, but you know that you are not. And so are you. Why waste your time hoping you can outdo his W in the hopes that maybe he will change his mind? You know you want him to leave, but if you press the issue, he will probably threaten you with not seeing you again, or "I shouldn't have to put up with this from you, too" type comments.

 

Don't kid yourself. The whole A is based on a lie. The lie that he gets to pretend that he is faithful ( w/his W) and upstanding (w/ you by telling you he's not leaving). When the ***** hits the fan, you will find out just how much you really were lied to, and lying to yourself (creating a version of him that is simply not who he is).

[lovernotafighter]

my exMM not really lied to me as he didn't have to because I lied to myself enough for both of us about him, our relationship and why I was even involved in it from the get go.

[Can'tGiveUp]

Actually, you are lying to each other every time you get together. If the two of you have a real relationship, he should be more than willing to leave his wife for you. As for you, you are lying to yourself that the relationship is worthwhile.

 

By definition a relationship is: a state of connectedness between people. Perhaps we don't meet your definition of a relationship, but we have a very honest and real one, albeit secretive. And if his marriage ends it has to be for him, not me.

 

Since you have no knowledge of my life, you cannot say whether this relationship is worthwhile for me or not.

 

And again, the question was whether every other MM lies to the OW.

 

Since I am apparently an anomaly, I will leave this board again as I do not wish to get into a discussion on the morals of affairs nor specifics on my relationship.

[Trialbyfire]

By definition a relationship is: a state of connectedness between people. Perhaps we don't meet your definition of a relationship' date=' but we have a very honest and real one, [b']albeit secretive[/b]. And if his marriage ends it has to be for him, not me.

 

Since you have no knowledge of my life, you cannot say whether this relationship is worthwhile for me or not.

 

And again, the question was whether every other MM lies to the OW.

 

Since I am apparently an anomaly, I will leave this board again as I do not wish to get into a discussion on the morals of affairs nor specifics on my relationship.

I'll just point out one reference.

 

Don't get into a huff and leave. I would hope that you want some honest opinions from people about how they feel. You will find that there are always two sides to every story. Just be prepared to take the positive and negative comments without taking them personally.

 

I'm a very upfront person who expresses her opinion. If I were asking for opinions and/or advice, I would want honest opinions. Keep in mind that they are just that, opinions, and everyone has them.

[BenThereDunThat]

Honey,

 

Of course he is lying to you. Just because he did the noble thing of telling you up front that he wasn't leaving his M, doesn't mean that he doesn't or isn't lying to you. This is a man that has shut you down for really asking for what you want (you said you don't talk about him leaving anymore). This is a man that expects for you to be there for him, but he can't be there for you as he has already told you up front that you are not a priority (ie, his W).

 

What Trial said, was definitely related the question you asked. He IS guilty of pretence. He gets to make you feel like you are the only one for him for a moment, but you know that you are not. And so are you. Why waste your time hoping you can outdo his W in the hopes that maybe he will change his mind? You know you want him to leave, but if you press the issue, he will probably threaten you with not seeing you again, or "I shouldn't have to put up with this from you, too" type comments.

 

Don't kid yourself. The whole A is based on a lie. The lie that he gets to pretend that he is faithful ( w/his W) and upstanding (w/ you by telling you he's not leaving). When the ***** hits the fan, you will find out just how much you really were lied to, and lying to yourself (creating a version of him that is simply not who he is).

 

Great post.

[LucreziaBorgia]

And again, the question was whether every other MM lies to the OW.

 

The relationship itself can only exist as long as the lies to the W continue to hold up - so, that said, the relationship itself is based entirely on and is entirely dependent on: lies.

 

A relationship that exists only as long as lies keep it alive cannot be said to be an honest one despite how 'open and honest' the affair partners are with each other.

 

I suppose if he is truthful about the state of his marriage, and does not give the OW false hope he can be said to be truthful to the OW.

 

I can't imagine anyone being ok with a MM truthfully saying:

 

"I love my wife, still have sex with her regularly, and function like any other married couple and am only looking for someone for some hot sex and ego stroking on the side. I will never leave my wife and will only continue to be with you for as long as I can keep this hidden from my wife, and as long as you continue to be discreet and meet my needs while putting your own needs aside."

 

Why on earth would ANYONE want to willingly and knowingly be with a man who would say something like that?

 

Of course the MM must lie to some extent to the OW or else she wouldn't stick around. At least I would hope no one would lower their personal standards to that point.

 

I'm sure MM's fabricated spiel is something more along the lines of:

 

"I care about my wife as the mother of my children. She is more like a sister though. We don't even share a bed and we never have sex, or if we do its like she just lays there and doesn't respond to me. I need more than dry spells and duty sex - I need passion and fire in my life and you and you alone can provide that to me so that I can endure this unhappy and lonely marriage that I am stuck with. I only love you, and want to be with only you but can't just leave my wife and kids. Will you stay by my side even though I'm unhappily married and can't get out of the marriage?"

 

So... which is it OW hear most often? The truth or the fabrication designed to elicit sympathy and make him look like a marriage victim/martyr?

[Can'tGiveUp]

I also noted the contradictory honest vs. secretive when I wrote it. Within the relationship, it is honest. And while not in a huff, I choose not to defend my personal decision to be in this potentially destructive situation. I' m not looking for an analysis of this relationship...I have done enough of that both on my own and with him.

 

To NoIDidn't - he hasn't shut me down in any way. And I have not asked him to leave her. What I said was that I want him to leave her. I do want that and he knows it, but I haven't asked him to do it and I won't.

 

And I don't try to "outdo his W" in the hopes that he will leave. I am simply me. If I want to talk about his M, then he will talk to me about it. I choose not to. If I press him to leave her, well maybe he will leave me but I already know that when I NEED him to leave her, then it is over. He knows how I feel and I know how he feels. He doesn't expect me to be there for him. He knows that I have the option, at any time, to move on. And when I want to, I will tell him, and then do so.

 

See, now I am getting into specifics of my situation...not what I wanted to do.

 

To LB : You are suggesting that the MM is in a truly happy M. Perhaps the reality is in between the two scenarios you have described?? And he is honest about it?

[noforgiveness]

can'tgiveup what's your user name mean? Is it that you won't give up on him being fully yours one day?

 

I really feel sorry for you. You are living a charade.

I find it funny this man that must lie to so many people just to sneak around to see you has you so convinced that he is truly honest with you.

You know why? Because like all the other other women you believe your relationship is different. You are special.

 

Tell his wife. See how special you are. Oh or better yet THREATEN to tell his wife then no harm will be cause and just see how he reacts.

[LucreziaBorgia]

To LB : You are suggesting that the MM is in a truly happy M. Perhaps the reality is in between the two scenarios you have described?? And he is honest about it?

 

How would you know if a known and proven liar was being honest about anything? Its a tricky situation and as an OW you have to take a great leap of faith that what he tells you is the truth, which can't be easy knowing how easily he lies to the person he has promised with G_d as a witness to love, cherish and be faithful to until death do them part.

 

I guess unless you were able to firsthand experience the relationship between him and his W, you'll never know for sure and have to take him at his word, which isn't worth a heck of a lot when you think about it. If he can lie to a person who he promised a lifetime of fidelity, he can lie to pretty much anyone.

 

Maybe he did tell you the truth about his situation at home, and maybe he embellished a bit. How would you know for sure?

[puddleofmud]

Honey, as long as you understand that there is an EXPIRATION date (and you have stated that there is such since he has no intention of ever leaving his wife), and you understand implicitly that he will NOT....

then you are the one who will have to live with that unknown date contantly hanging over your pretty head, every day, every hour, every moment.

Every time he doesn't answer your calls, every time you can't locate him, every time he becomes distant, physically, emotionally and when he no longer can say enough or do enough to make you feel secure about all this you will wonder if THIS is the day it expires.

Sadly, perhaps, each time you think that day has come you will dig in and fight harder to make it not so...

One day is will expire, without your concerns as all concern will be about his life. There will probably be no "I love and adore you" good byes.

It could be very abrupt.

Only you can decide if you can accept such.

Best wishes and be careful with yourself.

[IngenueMisnomer]

My MM has never told me that he's going to leave his W, nor that his marriage is dreadful. In fact I choose not to discuss any of that. So I really don't know the details of what goes on in marriage. But I do believe that it's neither the worst or the best. I have never asked him to leave either. Ideally it would be wonderful for me if he left, but in being aware of the devastation that this would cause in both our lives, I'm not even sure that I want it to happen. Honestly the only reason why I'd want him to leave is if he makes that decision for himself, uninfluenced by me. But I understand the kind of man that he is and I know that this will probably never happen. So I've given up hope on that and am just living out this relationship until its deadline, the end of this year. At times I am tempted to contemplate our future, but I quickly shake myself out of this fantasy. I chose to live in the here and now and deal with the future as it comes. We only have so little time left, I try to be as happy as possible.

[whichwayisup]

And I have not asked him to leave her. What I said was that I want him to leave her. I do want that and he knows it, but I haven't asked him to do it and I won't.

 

But you telling him that you want him to leave his wife is more or less the same thing as "asking" him to. Just different wording, but the message is there.

[Can'tGiveUp]

can'tgiveup what's your user name mean? Is it that you won't give up on him being fully yours one day?

 

I really feel sorry for you. You are living a charade.

I find it funny this man that must lie to so many people just to sneak around to see you has you so convinced that he is truly honest with you.

You know why? Because like all the other other women you believe your relationship is different. You are special.

 

Tell his wife. See how special you are. Oh or better yet THREATEN to tell his wife then no harm will be cause and just see how he reacts.

 

My name means I can't give him up. at least not yet, and he can't give me up. We tried for more than a year.

 

Don't feel sorry for me. I am not living a charade, just my life.

 

Yes, I am special. Thanks for pointing it out. And apparently our relationship which is based on love, friendship and honesty (to each other) is different.

 

I could threaten to tell his wife, but he wouldn't believe me. I would never do that and he knows it.