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Would this bother you?


vanhalenfan

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Hi LS,

 

Hmm, how to begin this. Well, I was having 'mild' suspicions about a female client of my fiance's that is a long time friend. I did a little snooping...not really coming up with anything. Texts, emails, small things. I always had this weird, nagging feeling. On the outside, this woman looks like the ideal woman for him..I always felt that...I am jealous of her. And I hate when they have contact. Anyway...I came across mild flirtation in emails today. Would this bother you?:

 

The emails were all work related, but then there was one picture she sent of an indentation of her foot in the sand she wanted to use for her website. She asked about photo quality for the site and then said, "Isn't my foot just lovely? haha" Then he responds, "Yes, you're foot is very lovely ;)" (Yes that is a winky face)

 

That does bother me. I can't say anything though because I don't want him to know I was snooping...The other interactions were work related pretty much...

 

I don't know....not really comfortable. I don't care if they are long time friends and joking around. That's how he puts it when I've said other things about her. He is good friends with her husband, but they are in a bad marriage. Staying married for financial reasons. Just as a side note.

Edited by vanhalenfan
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BoaConstrictor

I'm probably in the minority here, but I find snooping a violation far worse than saying to a friend that her foot is pretty.

 

No, in essence it wouldn't bother me. If that's all you found, then I would conclude that nothing is going on.

 

But I would use this as an opportunity to examine your own insecurities and trust issues. I don't think snooping like this sets a very good precedent moving forward toward marriage. Either you trust him or you don't. Based on what you've written, this appears to be coming more from your own jealousy rather than any inherent sense that your fiance isn't trustworthy.

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Boa - Thank you for your honesty. I agree with you. I do have issues with trusting partners after being cheated on in the past. I am working on it and really trying. I still have these "breakthrough" moments though where I have trouble controlling myself.

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BoaConstrictor

Ah, thanks for the context. That makes perfect sense why you would struggle with trust issues.

 

I'm also a little sensitive to this, considering my husband found out about an online flirtation I was having by snooping. Obviously in my case there was something to be found. But it has made me reevaluate the issue of snooping, and I think the morality of the act cannot be defined by the result. In other words, whether or not you find something shouldn't determine whether or not it was okay to snoop. From my vantage point, snooping is wrong.

 

But in my husband's case, he was also cheated on by an earlier girlfriend as well, so I understand the impulse. And in my own marriage, clearly my infraction is worse than his snooping, so there's that.

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Well, I confronted. I did it lightheartedly. He says it's not like that at all...Got kind of angry with me because I have a history of bringing up things like this and it aggravates him. He was just kidding around...He said what was I supposed to say when she asked about her feet? Say they're hideous? She asked if they were lovely so I said yes they are lovely...He doesn't see the big deal. I see winky faces as flirtatious. I also asked right out if he had feelings for her at all, even a little bit, and to be honest with me. He said no, that is nonsense. They're just friends and she's his client. I also explained that I become concerned because this is how "things begin"...You know what I mean? All it takes is one stupid comment and things gets out of control quickly. He just kept calling it nonsense, didn't want to talk about it anymore because he is tired of talking about accusations and whatnot, etc.

Edited by vanhalenfan
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Jealousy is ugly & making someone pay for another's cheating is ugly...most people won't tolerate it for very long...don't be worried about her, be worried that he may leave you bc of you, not bc of someone else. Put your effort into healing yourself, not emojis of winks being sent...good luck

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Whoknew - Thank you also for your honesty. I do realize I have to stop. It's difficult once you start (especially if you find a small nagging thing like this). I have gotten better. I'm just not 100% and still have my moments.

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This could go either way. Since she is a client, he does have to schmooze her a bit and be friendlier that what you probably like. This is a part of his job. This is how he gets results.

 

Two things:

 

1. If you can't accept this part of his job, you need to postpone the wedding and REALLY evaluate if this is the life you want.

 

2. You only get so many chances to confront someone on behavior and your suspicions. You say you have a history of doing this. Jealous and insecurity are not good traits.

 

Now, if he's not being transparent and keeps his phone close and locked and you never have access to his email or Facebook page, this could be worrisome.

 

I'm very private and I've been alone a long time. I don't really share my tablet and phone. I've never had to have pass codes because I'm alone. I don't know how comfortable I would be with being transparent.

Edited by Lady2163
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MidnightBlue1980
I posted over in the regular Marriage/Life Partnership area, but thought I should maybe ask here too as it may be more fitting?

 

Anyway, here it is:

 

Hmm, how to begin this. Well, I was having 'mild' suspicions about a female client of my fiance's that is a long time friend. I did a little snooping...not really coming up with anything. Texts, emails, small things. I always had this weird, nagging feeling. On the outside, this woman looks like the ideal woman for him..I always felt that...I am jealous of her. And I hate when they have contact. Anyway...I came across mild flirtation in emails today. Would this bother you?:

 

The emails were all work related, but then there was one picture she sent of an indentation of her foot in the sand she wanted to use for her website. She asked about photo quality for the site and then said, "Isn't my foot just lovely? haha" Then he responds, "Yes, you're foot is very lovely ;) " (Yes that is a winky face)

 

That does bother me. I can't say anything though because I don't want him to know I was snooping...The other interactions were work related pretty much...except fiance was kind of joking around a bit much...lots of lol's and stuff, but he does that normally with other people...

 

I don't know....not really comfortable. I don't care if they are long time friends and joking around. That's how he puts it when I've said other things about her. He is good friends with her husband, but they are in a bad marriage. Staying married for financial reasons. Just as a side note.

 

Edited to add:

 

Well, I confronted. I did it lightheartedly. He says it's not like that at all...Got kind of angry with me because I have a history of bringing up things like this and it aggravates him. He was just kidding around...He said what was I supposed to say when she asked about her feet? Say they're hideous? She asked if they were lovely so I said yes they are lovely...He doesn't see the big deal. I see winky faces as flirtatious. I also asked right out if he had feelings for her at all, even a little bit, and to be honest with me. He said no, that is nonsense. They're just friends and she's his client. I also explained that I become concerned because this is how "things begin"...You know what I mean? All it takes is one stupid comment and things gets out of control quickly. He just kept calling it nonsense, didn't want to talk about it anymore because he is tired of talking about accusations and whatnot, etc.

 

Your fiance' is probably innocent and enjoys the attention (as do we all) and I doubt he likes the woman - but the woman's behavior is inappropriate unless your fiance's does something where her sending a picture of her foot would be appropriate, like he does her website or something. I have clients and no one sends me pictures of any kind and I do not send winky faces to them (and yes, it is a somewhat harmless form of flirting but highly inappropriate for a client relationship).

 

I would not accuse your fiance', guys hate to be accused of things they did not do, but I would keep your eyes open. I will tell you what I did, and my husband was so mad but I didn't care, there was a woman who was PMing him on FB. I PMed her and introduced myself as his wife and said I was looking forward to meeting her, that I had heard a lot about her. It stopped. In no way did I act crazy. And today he will post on guys' threads I know.

 

When you are married, it is each person's job to make the other feel secure.

 

My Outlook is on this computer and open all the time. So is my FB. I do have my gmail passworded but my H could break into it on my phone if he really wanted to as I do not have a password on my phone. The appearance of no secrets makes him secure enough that he does not feel the need to read my private emails.

 

Have you met this woman? Does she know you personally?

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MidnightBlue - He does do website work so he does regularly get sent pics. He is working on a blogging template/website for this client and she needed help with two pics...the foot pic and another pic of the ocean.

 

And I have met this woman twice. She's actually a nice woman and I liked her when I met her. I am friends with her on FB (I initiated that one after a few too many glasses of wine one night last Summer...lol :p) I was just curious and that's when I had my first suspicions which ended up being nothing then. She also invited me to like her business FB page. This is the first time I am seeing winky faces and compliments...

 

Ok, I wanted to add that he does leave everything open. He is very open....no passwords on phone, leaves it around, lets me use it even. That's how I had the opportunity to look. (I know, it sucks...I abused his trust.) His computer does lock when the screensaver goes on but he often walks away with just me in the room with the screen still on and his Outlook business email is always opened and unlocked (again, that is how I got access to the email.) So I can't say he seems to be hiding anything from me. I mean, I don't know his passwords to Facebook, Twitter, etc. I do see them on his phone always opened so I have looked into FB messenger and the like in the past and once this week to check on this woman...to be sure.

 

**I do want to add, over a year ago he had a very short emotional affair with an ex but HE stopped it on his own. I found out just 3 months ago. This is also why I am very insecure with him. I should have mentioned.**

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MidnightBlue1980
MidnightBlue - He does do website work so he does regularly get sent pics. He is working on a blogging template/website for this client and she needed help with two pics...the foot pic and another pic of the ocean.

 

And I have met this woman twice. She's actually a nice woman and I liked her when I met her. I am friends with her on FB (I initiated that one after a few too many glasses of wine one night last Summer...lol :p) I was just curious and that's when I had my first suspicions which ended up being nothing then. She also invited me to like her business FB page. This is the first time I am seeing winky faces and compliments...

 

Ok, I wanted to add that he does leave everything open. He is very open....no passwords on phone, leaves it around, lets me use it even. That's how I had the opportunity to look. (I know, it sucks...I abused his trust.) His computer does lock when the screensaver goes on but he often walks away with just me in the room with the screen still on and his Outlook business email is always opened and unlocked (again, that is how I got access to the email.) So I can't say he seems to be hiding anything from me. I mean, I don't know his passwords to Facebook, Twitter, etc. I do see them on his phone always opened so I have looked into FB messenger and the like in the past and once this week to check on this woman...to be sure.

 

**I do want to add, over a year ago he had a very short emotional affair with an ex but HE stopped it on his own. I found out just 3 months ago. This is also why I am very insecure with him. I should have mentioned.**

 

Okay, well then the pictures make sense. I would not worry about that.

 

As a married woman who had an A, this woman is probably flirting with everyone under the sun to see who bites. I am sure she has her own issues. I would just be aware and let her see you are a happy couple about to get married. Generally speaking, women in this situation are not looking to bust up a happy couple, they are not evil, they are just in a mess of their own and looking to see who else is in his own mess.

 

The reality is, these situations are all around us and there is not much you can do other than be the best woman you can be to your fiance and let other women know that you are an active part of his life. My husband does the same and it generally sends people sniffing around on their way. Just like a burglar does not break into a home with a dog, someone unhappy in their marriage does not pursue someone in a happy marriage.

 

And yes, I say this from my own bad experiences in life.

 

As for the monitoring, I admit to having looked at my husband's email and FB, but I know he has gone through mine at times. It is a random thing, we do not monitor each other. You need to have a basic level of trust or there is no point.

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Good lord, yes. I agree with katielee.

 

I say now if only I HAD acted on all my uncomfortable reactions to - what I now know was - my husband's constant flirtation with women. He had five affairs over 40 years, four of them with people I knew. All those years I felt embarrassed, uncomfortable, sometimes marginalized by his interactions. He dismissed it and gaslighted me when I brought it up, similar to who yours did.

 

Because technology finally created the possibility of documenting people's interactions, I was able to see more clearly how things would start after I discovered he'd had an emotional then physical affair with my sister-in-law, which they both wanted desperately to be a "best friends/family" relationship (to everyone but me) and even to themselves. They'd supposedly stopped the physical so that they could just be friends at some point. He was mad at me for staying abroad for so long at a time and says he thought I wanted to end things. So he got close to SIL/OW and tried to help her. Too close. He confessed to the other four affairs, some EA, others PA. I also discovered inappropriate chatting/flirting on a social media site.

 

The point is all that was real and probably more I don't know about. If I had acted on my discomfort and not been so trusting, I might have found out much sooner. There was certainly PLENTY of circumstance and opportunity to question all the time.

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After an affair, this would actually be a deal breaker for me. Don't get married.

 

You know her fiancee hasn't cheated on her, right?

 

I do have issues with trusting partners after being cheated on in the past.

 

vanhalenfan, what you've found is just normal life and business stuff. Unless you're going to bubble wrap your fiancee and keep him in the basement, he'll interact with other people, women included. Worry less, love more...

 

Mr. Lucky

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Read the book "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass about this phenomenon in the U.S. She studied and surveyed lots of couples and presents her data and spouses' reactions to infidelity in this book.

 

Before unmarried men and women start to become interested in each other, they've already crossed a line somewhere that they're both aware of. They're enjoying themselves and the attention is flattering, so they deny to themselves, to each other and to others that there's anything to it. For a long time. Then, they stop the sexual or don't get to it and they can downplay, minimize or even bury the inappropriate part as if it didn't happen.

 

I had not faced the truth that my husband flirted with women all the time and made me feel like an idiot when I wanted to talk about it. When he confessed to me, he still referred to petting, hugging, and making out "flirting"

 

He doesn't do this any more and is ashamed of that aspect of his life. We don't talk about it as if he's a reformed smoker, however; it's too mortifying for him. But we both know what he's said about it and that it was real and it ALWAYS started as innocent flirting. It was a way of interacting with women that was pretty much the only way he'd learned.

 

God I hate talking about this, thinking of what a fool I was and what a con man he was. If he didn't hate himself so much for it now, confess and explain as he has, I'd be in therapy still and 'we' would be history.

 

IT's not innocent and he shouldn't deny

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I know most people say that if you feel the need to snoop, that's your first sign that the relationship isn't working out.

 

Given the fact that he had a previous emotional affair that you've only recently found out about, I can understand your need/urge to look at everything he's doing. You are about to marry this guy... it makes sense to question things.

 

I will say that I used to be of the same mindset... don't snoop, if you must snoop, the relationship is falling apart. BUT... I had that mindset when my exhusband cheated on me. I didn't snoop because I forced myself to believe that I wasn't supposed to do that. Had I snooped, I would have understood much better why our marriage was failing and why we ultimately divorced. Instead, I didn't find out about the affair until 3 years after we divorced. A divorce which, btw, he blamed on me.

 

And then again in my last major relationship. I snooped when I felt the need to and I was right to do so... he was cheating on me left and right.

 

I will say though, that if you find yourself feeling insecure about the relationship, there is usually a reason for it. He may not be cheating, but he's given you reason to worry and that worry is going to eat away at you.

 

I don't know what to tell you to do, but if your gut is telling you something is off, it probably is.

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You know her fiancee hasn't cheated on her, right?

 

 

vanhalenfan, what you've found is just normal life and business stuff. Unless you're going to bubble wrap your fiancee and keep him in the basement, he'll interact with other people, women included. Worry less, love more...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

She said he did... had an emotional affair with an ex that she only found out about 3 months ago.

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LivingWaterPlease

I wouldn't date a man who interacted with another woman by commenting on the quality of any part of her body, arms, legs, face, whatever. That's too personal, imo. I respect a man or woman who has good strong boundaries and am not attracted to those who don't.

 

To me, having strong boundaries with both genders is a sign of high self esteem.

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Recently I posted a thread asking what people thought about my husband's text to a client. After providing her with our address because she needed to send something, he added, "It's really quiet out here," in reference to our new house. Most posters thought I was reading into it, even considering our history. My husband, also, wouldn't buy into it as flirtatious, inappropriate or strange. He said they had spoken by phone minutes before and she'd asked about the new house, so he gave his response by text.

 

Once I knew about the phone conversation, I could see the plausibility. I still contend that he was careless. For one thing, SHE could very well have been impressed at what a sensitive guy he is; most men wouldn't care (and for that reason, it wouldn't occur to him to text it to a guy).

 

However - whether he acknowledged the validity of my discomfort or not (he didn't), we were able to have a talk about boundaries and identified some very specific parameters for future and general interactions with the opposite sex—e.g., don't be alone inside with a woman, don't enjoy chit-chatting too much, don't share personal information unnecessarily, etc.

 

I think this would be a good conversation for you to have since your fiancé has already shown a lack of boundaries and denial and now is showing gross insensitivity to your need for reassurance. He had the affair. You do not need to defend yourself.

 

P.S.

A few days later, the same client suggested she "drop" something by his house. Well, there is no such thing as "dropping by" this house because of where we live in the country. It is not on the way to anywhere. You come here only to come here, and she would only suggest that because he'd opened that door already.

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She flirted. He is right that there really isn't much that he could have said to her, his client when she was fishing for compliments. However, the winky face was flirting back and since he has cheated on you I do recommend "not just friends" and you reevaluate your future marriage.

 

You need to be able to trust your spouse. Snooping will drive you mad. Reading into things will drive you mad. Becoming paranoid will drive you mad.

 

You aren't married yet. Just don't rush in.

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Honestly I don't think there's anything wrong with jealousy or insecurity in themselves as they're natural human emotions. And just like any other emotions it depends on how you control them and how you let them control your actions. They're not inherently bad.

 

Seeing how your fiance has a track record of cheating and your gut is telling you something might be up, I don't see anything wrong with you "snooping". I think your biggest mistake is to keep accusing him with no concrete evidence and just your suspicions. If he is cheating all you're doing is telling him he needs to cover his tracks better.

 

It also doesn't sound like you need to keep going through with this wedding at the moment. It would be one thing if your fiance cheated, was remorseful and understanding (although I'm generally against people marrying fiances or significant others who have a history of cheating in the relationship). But your fiance cheated and can't seem to empathize with you or understand why you might be suspicious or leery of his behavior with certain members of the opposite sex. That is a pretty big red flag.

 

You really need to ask yourself if getting married to this guy is the best idea.

Edited by JS84
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My H is an open book after his affair....and it helps.

 

I don't have to snoop....I can just look. It helps me with anxiety, and it helps him be accountable and in line.

 

And I am an open book to him. I don't see that as a bad thing. I see that as we are a team and keep no secrets.

 

The further we get from the affair the less I look. But it's there if I want to.

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More talking last night. Not much else to say. I started off saying I felt justfied in my actions given the past. He doesn't really agree. He is holding strong that it was nothing, not even flirting. Gaslighting me, maybe. I'm not sure. He's still being wide open regarding devices and such...He asked why I believe he's hidng something or that this means anything when he leaves everything open for me to see. He doesn't advocate looking through others accounts and such but he leaves it all open anyway. He wrote those emails with me standing right there as well, so he is wondering why I think he's in the wrong. (Well, the foot email I wasn't quite right behind him but I was in the room. The other email that was questionable to me he knew I was reading next to him. He wrote "Ahhhh! That's me working my magic! lol" (in response to a question she asked as to why an image was showing up automatically on her webpage).

 

Then at the end of the argument/conversation he had admitted he sometimes says the inappropriate remark here and there but he's just trying to build his business and whatnot. I didn't care for that so much but he was pretty much finished with talking about it and getting frustrated with my many questions and remarks. It was almost 2am and we had to wake up at 7am.

 

Also last night (before the second argument), we were watching a movie and he got up and said he had to write a quick email to "a client" because he was unable to get work done promised today. He usually tells me his business and he normally would have said a name, not "a client". Well, I decided given the circumstances to check on who it was and it was her. But the email was very generic and professional. I guess given the arguments we were having last night about emailing her he didn't want to bring up that he had to email her. I understand I guess. At least the email was completely professional.

 

I don't know who is right and who is wrong here. I feel slighted...That's how i feel and I can't help that. I don't know if that's normal or if I am overreacting.

Edited by vanhalenfan
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BoaConstrictor

He probably said it was a generic "client" because he didn't want to start up with you again. I personally wouldn't stand for this kind of snooping, even in the circumstances I am currently in as the recently wayward spouse. I know there are different philosophies on here, but just because a spouse makes a mistake, even a big one, doesn't mean that they should lose the right to privacy. If my husband had continued to snoop on me over the last two months, we would be in a much worse position. I'm not sure the marriage would have survived long term. In the short term, it might have, but long term being surveilled like that would have worn on me.

 

Anyway, just something to keep in mind. Do you want to be married to him? Do you love him? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with this man? If so, I might reconsider your approach.

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