Character Flaw in WS?

[Hardgrind]

This is a question for the BS's out there. It is over one year since DDay for me, a BH. We are in the process of getting a divorce.

 

 

My question is in hindsight, was there a character flaw or personality trait that you now see in your WS that you overlooked or ignored earlier in your relationship? Are you still surprised that she cheated, looking at everything in hindsight? Have your friends made comments alluding to flaws after the fact?

 

 

Percy Sledge's recent passing prompts this question. One of the lines in "When a Man Love's a Woman" is "She can bring him such misery

If she plays him for a fool, he's the last one to know. Lovin' eyes can't ever see."

[Spark1111]

Sure, but love is supposed to be blind, no?

 

when you love and TRUST someone, your usual and NORMAL response is: Not my H! Not my W! Not my child....They would NEVER do that...

 

The easiest person to betray is the one who loves and trusts you because they keep talking themselves out of their gut instincts and rationalizing the red flags away.

 

Don't beat yourself up about it. it's very normal and very common.

 

And don't forget hindsight is always 20/20.

[nightmare01]

This July it will be 14 years since Dday. Me and WW are still married, and the marriage is good - just not what it could have been had she not had her LTA.

 

Yes - there were warning signs early in our relationship. She even cheated on me before we became engaged.. I thought we were exclusive then, but I guess I was wrong. She also had what I considered a lot of in appropriate relationships with men she worked with - her response was always that I was controlling or too jealous.

 

I think many WS do have a flaw in their character that allows them to be ok with cheating.

[Spark1111]

The triumvirate of characteristics according to psychologists is low self-esteem, which leads to poor communication skills (about THEIR NEEDS) and conflict-avoidance.

 

Often, these characteristics start in early childhood, way before a marriage partner is chosen.

 

Because they are so unsure what their needs are, or how to express them ( Intimacy issues) they often feel VERY entitled to any positive attention that comes their way....

 

Which leads to a void no one partner is enough to fill and results in poor, poor, boundaries with the opposite sex and sometimes the same sex where they become highly competitive for the attentions of the opposite sex.

[elaine567]

Approximately 50% of males and and 50% of females have been found in studies to cheat at least once in their marriages, do they all have character flaws?

[ladydesigner]

My question is in hindsight, was there a character flaw or personality trait that you now see in your WS that you overlooked or ignored earlier in your relationship? Are you still surprised that she cheated, looking at everything in hindsight? Have your friends made comments alluding to flaws after the fact?

 

Absolutely! My WH is. I did not know this until his latest affair with MOW. I had it confirmed by his IC that he has very strong tendencies towards NPD and it is quite noticeable since all of this has come to light. Now I only see the personality disordered person and am not expecting a miracle in my M anymore. I have accepted that THIS IS WHO MY HUSBAND IS. I am not happy about it and had I known this prior to marrying him I never would have walked down that aisle.

 

I was surprised at the time I discovered the A with MOW even though there were past shady behaviors by him with no sure proof (I am positive my WH has had previous affairs). Today I am not surprised he cheated because he is a walking void. He looks to other people for validation and still does, although has much better boundaries with women now that he is aware of it. I never could have been enough for him.

 

Family and friends made comments about his personality before I saw it, before I discovered the A. My rose colored glasses were thick

 

I no longer wear rose colored glasses and I do not hold out hope for my M. If WH wants to be faithful he will be and if not I can finally say that I am ready to leave.

[Mr. Lucky]

Approximately 50% of males and and 50% of females have been found in studies to cheat at least once in their marriages, do they all have character flaws?

 

Besides the fact they're cheaters ??? To me, that qualifies as a pretty big character flaw...

 

Mr. Lucky

[AlwaysGrowing]

Approximately 50% of males and and 50% of females have been found in studies to cheat at least once in their marriages, do they all have character flaws?

 

Do you honestly believe that we (humans) are without flaws?

 

I know I have flaws. I know that I was not always aware of them. My ego would not allow me to see them.

 

Some, I was able to fix. Others....I have to consciously be aware of them ...so I don't allow myself to fall victim in allowing myself to fall back into old (FOO) mindset (way of viewing my world).

 

Being aware of our own shortcomings or unrealistic expectations is what separates ourselves from a child's view and a more mature view of our being.

 

For me there is much truth in the saying....you know what happened to the last person that was perfect....they nailed him to a cross.

[Friskyone4u]

Hardgrind,

 

The person who figures out how to predict in advance by character flaws or anything else will be an instant billionaire.

 

Now there are behaviors that can increase the odds. One poster mentioned a WW that continuously flirts with men at work.

 

i think what happens is most of BS miss the signs or try to wish them away.

A simple google will give anyone the most basic signs of a cheating spouse, man or woman. A lot are common sense, but how often do we see where they are totally ignored. Just like someone would try To do with a serious disease.

 

How often do we read

(1) she locked her phone and passwords

(2) she is always going out with friends

(3) she dresses different

(40 she grooms different

And on an on. These are not character flaws but right in front of us. Keeping your eyes open and not trying to escape reality is the best way not to bbe a victim. The problem is we always expect it to happen to someone else.

[elaine567]

Do you honestly believe that we (humans) are without flaws?

 

 

Er ... no. Who on earth would think that?

Of course everyone has flaws, but the OP mentioned "character flaws" in cheaters as if they were a select group, when in fact 50% of adults cheat.

I just don't believe 50% of adults who cheat all share the same traits or character flaws. I think some cheaters may be easily spotted re personality traits or behaviour or past history, but by no means all.

[Spark1111]

Fifty percent of adults do NOT cheat. That is a myth.....espoused by pop culture.

 

Fifty percent of adults no longer divorce...That was true in the early 1970s but has been declining ever since.

 

Psychologists put the number at 20% of men and 14% of women cheat. Only 15% of men avail themselves of prostitute and escort services.

 

Don't drink the pop culture koolaid.

 

Those that do go on to have multiple partners, marriages, etc.

 

i'd say the problem lies within the cheater, the exorbitant majority suffer from depression, bi-polar or personality disorders.

 

I am not talking of exit affairs, 3 out of every 100 affairs, where someone leaves the marriAge within 3 to 6 months.

 

affairs are NOT usual, common, or the actions of 60% of the population.

 

Uh, uh......

 

Google valid stats.

[autumnnight]

I believe a very particular type of people want to label WS with some magical specf=ific character flaw because it is easy to blame, supposedly easy to avoid, and seals their position as supreior.

[dichotomy]

 

 

1) My question is in hindsight, was there a character flaw or personality trait that you now see in your WS that you overlooked or ignored earlier in your relationship?

 

Yes my wife has a character disorder and intimacy disorder. This would be backed up by our therapists. I can say mostly I did not see it before we married, or how big it was, but I know part of my anger is at myself for probably ignoring the tips of icebergs before we got married. She lied through her teeth about who she was the second she met me - because she wanted me. It was harder for her to change to be who she was presenting herself to be to me - she tried. The question is how much she has changed from then? . She sees herself as a different person now - I see her as a "sober alcoholic" (to borrow a phrase) who has not fully done the 12 steps.

 

I also sometimes feel I made a deal knowing the iceberg tips (denial) so I could get what I wanted out of our marriage.

 

2) Are you still surprised that she cheated, looking at everything in hindsight?

 

No -after marriage and dDay I think I understand why she cheated, and did all the things she did between marriages. Some might say I am accepting excuses, and maybe it is, but I do see the huge influences that changed her before she met me.

 

3) Have your friends made comments alluding to flaws after the fact?

 

Not my friends. My late father did, as did some of her friends. In fact it was her "bad" friends who were not as careful and alluded to her flaws. Those friends are long gone now.

 

 

 

Responses above.

Edited April 23, 2015 by dichotomy

[Hardgrind]

Thank you to everyone for their responses.

 

 

I didn't and don't expect her to be perfect. I certainly am not. What I did expect was that she would show remorse, feel guilt and make an effort to work on our marriage after D Day, since she said she wanted to be with me after everything came out in the open.

 

 

There was a four day period where she did seem to be on the right track, but she then quickly fell back into lies, was unwilling to be accountable, refused to end all contact with AP and continued to be more invested in her AP than in the M. I waited and worked on things for six months, but when things kept moving in the wrong direction I asked for a separation, and then asked for a divorce a couple months later when it became obvious she was using the separation to continue pursue the affair.

 

 

We did pre-marital preparation. We were together for almost two years before getting married. In hindsight the affair doesn't surprise me as much as her behavior after D Day. If she had told me on D Day that she wanted a divorce and we separated then and there, I would have more respect for her. When I first posted back early 2014 and talked about my plan to try R, some on LS pleaded for me not to do that to myself. Some days I wish I taken their advice, and on other days I am glad I made every reasonable effort possible to R so that I can move forward without doubts.

 

 

In hindsight the character flaw I now clearly see in her is narcissism. She expects special treatment from others, she expects others to do what she wants in exactly the way she wants them to do it, and she doesn't believe rules apply to her. Bottom line is she holds others to higher standards than she applies to herself. With my IC's help I am now able to see some pretty obvious early indicators of this problem, and it has become obvious that my failure to deal with it early on hurt the marriage rather than saved it.

[Friskyone4u]

Hardgrind,

 

She probably DID want to be with you after she was caught, but she wanted her boyfriend too. She wanted to cake eat and probably thought she might get away with it because initially you probably were Mr. nice Guy and did all the wrong things.

 

You should in some small way consider yourself lucky that it only took four or five days for her to show her true self. And at least you caught her again quickly. So if you want to look at it that way, maybe you dodged a bullet of not having to endure a month or year false R with the affair deep underground

 

hang in there. Glad your therapist is helping you.

[Popsicle]

Sure, but love is supposed to be blind, no?

 

when you love and TRUST someone, your usual and NORMAL response is: Not my H! Not my W! Not my child....They would NEVER do that...

 

The easiest person to betray is the one who loves and trusts you because they keep talking themselves out of their gut instincts and rationalizing the red flags away.

 

Don't beat yourself up about it. it's very normal and very common.

 

And don't forget hindsight is always 20/20.

 

I love this. It's very true.

[cocorico]

I believe a very particular type of people want to label WS with some magical specf=ific character flaw because it is easy to blame, supposedly easy to avoid, and seals their position as supreior.

 

I was very amused when I came across the letters my H's xBW had written him in the early days of their A (she was WS, he her AP). The very qualities she claimed so to admire in him at that stage (by contrast to her BH, about whom she could say nothing good) were the same ones she later saw as flaws, that she hurled at him as insults after he'd left her.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I was very amused when I came across the letters my H's xBW had written him in the early days of their A (she was WS, he her AP). The very qualities she claimed so to admire in him at that stage (by contrast to her BH, about whom she could say nothing good) were the same ones she later saw as flaws, that she hurled at him as insults after he'd left her.

 

 

Sometimes our strengths are our weaknesses. It is recognizing when we are using them as crutches....refusing to use parts of our character that we have a more difficult time reaching. Because to do so....would mean stepping out of our comfort zone....to have expectations of ourselves...admitting...to ourselves...that we too have fingers that SHOULD be pointed at us....our own fingers.

[VeryBrokenMan]

Fifty percent of adults do NOT cheat. That is a myth.....espoused by pop culture.

 

Fifty percent of adults no longer divorce...That was true in the early 1970s but has been declining ever since.

 

Psychologists put the number at 20% of men and 14% of women cheat. Only 15% of men avail themselves of prostitute and escort services.

 

Don't drink the pop culture koolaid.

 

Those that do go on to have multiple partners, marriages, etc.

 

i'd say the problem lies within the cheater, the exorbitant majority suffer from depression, bi-polar or personality disorders.

 

I am not talking of exit affairs, 3 out of every 100 affairs, where someone leaves the marriAge within 3 to 6 months.

 

affairs are NOT usual, common, or the actions of 60% of the population.

 

Uh, uh......

 

Google valid stats.

 

I agree the 50% number is junk, proably made up by cheaters to make themselves feel better. I think the real statistics may be much much lower than even your numbers. I ran across a study a couple of weeks ago by the American Sociological Association. It said that only 1.4% of female partners cheated over the 6 year study period:

 

"Putting all of these numbers in context, Munsch said that very few people cheat on their partners (or report doing so in a survey). An average of approximately 3.8% of male partners and 1.4% of female partners cheated in any given year during the six-year period studied."

 

From:Men more likely to cheat if they are economically dependent on their female partners, study finds -- ScienceDaily

 

I tend to believe that it is a deep character flaw. Take your pick of any of the flaws that most cheaters have: narcissism, selfishness or entitlement. My wife displayed all three and was a key factor in her cheating. Add in conflict avoidance and a pleaser personality and she was a philanderers dream.

[VeryBrokenMan]

I believe a very particular type of people want to label WS with some magical specf=ific character flaw because it is easy to blame, supposedly easy to avoid, and seals their position as supreior.

 

Maybe flaw is not the right word since the term "character flaw" came from fictional writing. But it's certainly personality traits and issues the cheater has that are not based in reality.

 

I certainly don't see myself as superior for seeing what is deficient in my spouse.

[VeryBrokenMan]

In hindsight the character flaw I now clearly see in her is narcissism. She expects special treatment from others, she expects others to do what she wants in exactly the way she wants them to do it, and she doesn't believe rules apply to her. Bottom line is she holds others to higher standards than she applies to herself. With my IC's help I am now able to see some pretty obvious early indicators of this problem, and it has become obvious that my failure to deal with it early on hurt the marriage rather than saved it.

That describes my WW perfectly. I think the problem with narcissism is that the person affected by it cannot see it in themselves or at least it's very hard for them to. Part of our ability to reconcile is her lack of defensiveness when I point out her narcissism(and selfishness and entitlement) every time I see it. She is then able to process that and make adjustments to her thinking. My IC told me that most narcissists will not be able to do that so time will tell if she falls back into the same thinking, but I will never stop pointing it out as long as we are married. I really think that she can change but narcissism, selfishness and entitlement are some deep seated emotions and a mindset that is not easily changed. Your choice to divorce was probably the right decision and is probably right for most people.

[Hope Shimmers]

That describes my WW perfectly. I think the problem with narcissism is that the person affected by it cannot see it in themselves or at least it's very hard for them to. Part of our ability to reconcile is her lack of defensiveness when I point out her narcissism(and selfishness and entitlement) every time I see it. She is then able to process that and make adjustments to her thinking. My IC told me that most narcissists will not be able to do that so time will tell if she falls back into the same thinking, but I will never stop pointing it out as long as we are married. I really think that she can change but narcissism, selfishness and entitlement are some deep seated emotions and a mindset that is not easily changed. Your choice to divorce was probably the right decision and is probably right for most people.

 

The words 'narcissism', 'selfishness' and 'entitlement' keep getting thrown around and it almost seems like it's an excuse for these people to cheat. I don't think there are actually very many TRUE narcissists in the world; that is a DSM V diagnosis and a lot of criteria have to be met. However there are many selfish people, and as far as I'm concerned that is their choice. They choose to be selfish and entitled just as other people choose not to be.

 

Having said that, I don't understand why anyone would want to stay with someone like that. Why choose to be with someone like that when there are other people who don't have those terrible character traits? I will NEVER get it.

[VeryBrokenMan]

The words 'narcissism', 'selfishness' and 'entitlement' keep getting thrown around and it almost seems like it's an excuse for these people to cheat. I don't think there are actually very many TRUE narcissists in the world; that is a DSM V diagnosis and a lot of criteria have to be met. However there are many selfish people, and as far as I'm concerned that is their choice. They choose to be selfish and entitled just as other people choose not to be.

 

Having said that, I don't understand why anyone would want to stay with someone like that. Why choose to be with someone like that when there are other people who don't have those terrible character traits? I will NEVER get it.

 

 

I guess I'm staying because so many of the good traits and benefits outweigh those bad traits that she is willing to change. If she had not admitted those failing and was not willing to work on herself I might not be staying. There are also other factors that I've considered as well, she is a known risk and I would have a similar risk with anyone I chose to have a relationship with. And we have a long history and family ties (both our kids and her brothers and sisters) that I would like to see remain intact. Had she had an affair earlier in our marriage maybe things would be different but at this point in my life the benefits outweigh the bad things.

 

You're right, selfishness and entitlement are choices but I think they are hard to see in yourself and for your partner to see it. I know those traits were not a huge issue for me prior to her affair because I just assumed that every woman was like that. And I apologize for thinking that all these years to all women out there who are not. It was a huge eye opener when I discussed a lot of her behavior with my therapist. I always thought I was not giving enough to the marriage, when in fact she was just being selfish and expecting too much and she was actually the one not giving enough to the relationship.

[HereNorThere]

The words 'narcissism', 'selfishness' and 'entitlement' keep getting thrown around and it almost seems like it's an excuse for these people to cheat. I don't think there are actually very many TRUE narcissists in the world; that is a DSM V diagnosis and a lot of criteria have to be met. However there are many selfish people, and as far as I'm concerned that is their choice. They choose to be selfish and entitled just as other people choose not to be.

 

Having said that, I don't understand why anyone would want to stay with someone like that. Why choose to be with someone like that when there are other people who don't have those terrible character traits? I will NEVER get it.

 

Narcissism is a personality trait we all exude from time to time. We can all be narcissistic about certain things at various stages in our life. Narcissistic personality disorder is not the same as being narcissistic or selfish. It's true that real DSM criteria, diagnosed personality disorders are rare, being selfish isn't.

 

Why do people stay with people like that? Well, in a lot of ways it's like how most people would never abandon a troubled child or their sick mother. Eventually your spouse becomes your family. You've spent a lifetime with them and bonded. It's like dealing with a death, only worse. I actually agree that most people should leave, but I do understand how hard it is.

 

We all have some sort of character flaw, but those that have severe flaws relating to others through empathy and sympathy, impulse and forethought issues, novelty and thrill seeking behaviors, a history of violating the rights of others, selfishness, a propensity to rationalize and justify self serving behaviors, etc have a predisposition to infidelity. That's not to over-generalize and say they all will do it. I know some really narcissistic people who are fiercely loyal in relationships. However, most people who are cheated on look back and start identifying unhealthy behaviors that they had previously made excuses for or ignored. Most watched their spouse mistreat others, rewrite history, etc but thought they were somehow immune to their behavior because they were in love.

 

And like the other said, the 50% statistic is off. I think they are quoting the 50% of marriages in divorce stat. The Kinsey institute and a lot of other surveys put it much lower. 10 to 15% for women, 15 to 25% for men. Lots of other information backs this up.

[fellini]

One thing you can count on with a narcissist, if indeed she is "NPD", which I believe only experts in NPD are capable of assessing, (and even then... there are debates about which characteristics are valid, etc.) is that narcissists, especially those who marry, have two sources of narcissistic supply. And a spouse is an important one. Narcissists need a primary source. Now it's true, if they think the primary source isn't up to the task, will seek another, but generally speaking, they loath the idea of dumping their primary source after having invested a lot of energy into getting them there. Narcissists are more aware than anyone that finding sources of NS to feed off is a time consuming and difficult task. Too many people see it coming and show their back.

 

It is possible to live with a narcissist if you feel you are able to meet their needs for NS as their primary source. If you cannot be that, then you should probably leave. Of course I exclude Covert Narcissist from this - if that is your case, buy some Nike's and head for the hills. Don't look back.

 

I disagree with any discourse that says that Narcissism doesn't really "exist". We need words to describe reality. And if you look at the traits that are included in "narcissistic behaviour" you have to recognize that the word "selfish" for example, or "entitlement" simply doesn't cut it.

 

We all have the potential to exhibit narcissitic behaviour, or even to have a narcissistic trait a central aspect of our persona. But this does not make us NPD, of course. The choice that someone has to exhibit 5 out X number is almost arbitrary. Tomorrow they could change that to 6, or they could say 4 but trait X is a requirement. I leave these definitions to those who like to work in this field. The concept of Narcissism is still relevant and important for those who are struggling with some forms of infidelity in their lives, regardless what the prevailing clinical definition says.

 

I also caution, VBM, and I haven't got advice on how to avoid this, that narcissists can be incredible at feigning empathy, remorse, change, aknowledgement if needed to keep their primary NS close at hand. The fear of being abandoned by a Primary supply can be incredibly effective in making it look like a N has thrown her secondary source, her AP, under the bus, so as to ensure YOU don't get to do the leaving: that is a decision they require for themselves. But be clear: yes, they threw the AP under, but they still need secondary sources of supply. It doesn't have to be the same AP, it doesn't have to be even an affair. But secondary sources are required: if your WS exhibits the trait of using others to feed their self concept - and most do.

 

And never mind the sitting through all the trauma: seeing your spouse SUFFER IN ABSOLUTE PAIN is as much a source as expecting nothing but undulating PRAISE. The attention is all that is required.

 

The crazy thing about marriage, especially ones that go on for years, is the implicit "contract" we sign to accept behaviours, whether narcissistic or otherwise, that we expect them to be maintained. And this I think sort of leads to a point of laziness in the idea that a marriage is about "settling down", but really should be seen as the opposite - as an opportunity for two people to GROW TOGETHER, not settle together. Having kids, for example, is a quick route to settling, and living quite happily in a "child centred marriage".

 

And I have been there, and loved being there. I just didn't know that my WW was enjoying it, but then decided, after agreeing to be there with me, that it wasn't enough for her, she wanted something else: that being in a CCM was not where she saw herself.

 

Had she thought to ask me if maybe I would join her in injecting more spontaneity and life between the two of us, perhaps we wouldn't be where we are now.

 

Perhaps.

 

I guess I'm staying because so many of the good traits and benefits outweigh those bad traits that she is willing to change. If she had not admitted those failing and was not willing to work on herself I might not be staying. There are also other factors that I've considered as well, she is a known risk and I would have a similar risk with anyone I chose to have a relationship with. And we have a long history and family ties (both our kids and her brothers and sisters) that I would like to see remain intact. Had she had an affair earlier in our marriage maybe things would be different but at this point in my life the benefits outweigh the bad things.

 

You're right, selfishness and entitlement are choices but I think they are hard to see in yourself and for your partner to see it. I know those traits were not a huge issue for me prior to her affair because I just assumed that every woman was like that. And I apologize for thinking that all these years to all women out there who are not. It was a huge eye opener when I discussed a lot of her behavior with my therapist. I always thought I was not giving enough to the marriage, when in fact she was just being selfish and expecting too much and she was actually the one not giving enough to the relationship.

Edited April 28, 2015 by fellini