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Toodamnpragmatic

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Toodamnpragmatic

I've been here an awful long time and at times was way too involved in the site and posting my thoughts and questions. I think and am pretty sure while people could jump to conclusions and I gave clues I seldom talked too much about my "actual" situation.

 

I probably wasted too much time here, my spouse knew about the site and I'd tell her some stories and state that LS has made me feel much better about my life and that my preoccupation about sex is sometimes silly (not wrong). Most of my complaints frankly are just superficial.

 

Anyhow started talking to someone here (opposite sex of course) and we forged a friendship. 3000 miles plus and thus no chance of it progressing anywhere. We then proceeded to talk on the phone. I emailed her a lot and would talk about our lives, this site, our f-ups and frustrations. Yes I talked a lot about my hang-ups and not understanding my spouse and why she reacts as she does and moods that I can't do anything about and often take blame. I did cross the line, but to me it was a place to vent, get perspective give advise and yep innocent flirting. Trust me I flirt and am continually all over my spouse:p;).

 

Maybe over 3.5 years 2 suggestive (artsy) pictures and talk "If we lived closer". Never ever once the word love or anything remotely close.

 

Frankly I had someone I could vent to and get insight into the female mind (good & bad). I talked about stuff I'd never share with my friends and frankly shouldn't. They know and all love my spouse (and too know she can be a hardass;)).

 

I expect and know my spouse shares her frustration with me to her friends/sisters and looking at our lives, while not story book is pretty damn good. She doesn't talk sex, but the running joke is they go "Poor toodamnpragmatic", because my spouse intimates how much I get shut down.

 

So I was "caught". Never hid it, but never came up. If it did I would be honest as not sure what I was hiding or why. I betrayed my wife and caused her great pain.

 

Of course I could go on "I've never had a female friend to discuss this stuff with, what's the big deal?" Yes absolutely wrong.

 

I've read more than enough here about EA's and laughed about many of them that just because it is someone of the opposite sex does not make it an EA. Heck even talked about it with my spouse (who hates these sites) and said there is so much more to it.

 

Yep, like said here there was the trickle truth and with her rage scared to tell her everything. She read many of the emails and of course the ones focusing on us and lame flirting (no sexts as stated) were heartbreaking to her. Frankly though I told her if she talked to a male friend about me, I'd be okay, because I do trust her (she goes on trips with her single friend and never thought twice). I'm pretty honest bout myself and know my strangths and weaknesses and that is why I play as much to my strengths as possible to do as much as I can for my spouse.

 

We had a very difficult week, saw a counselor (one on my own and once with her). Know there is a lot to work on and crossing my fingers.

 

What gave me strength and I know this may rankle some is my friends. I know those she talked to are not impressed with me and frankly say I should be dumped (pretty sure that was the reaction). However I came clean to my friends and their reaction (and they all love my spouse) was that they basically laughed.

 

My words to them (one was on the phone, the others we were meeting Friday to go to a baseball game) were "I have f'ed up my marriage". All of them responded, and I told them the story as honest as possible, was that boy I did something stupid, but I didn't really do anything (if that makes sense) and they found it funny and wondered why my spouse would leave me over a female friend.

 

I know many here will disagree, but that has given me a different perspective and was something I needed to hear.

 

So yes 6 days of NC and no withdrawals. I told my friend and she laughed as we were penpals as she described it (her spouse knows about me) and said she'd talk to my spouse (not a good idea). Things better at home and communication is much better for now.

 

We'll see where it goes.

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sdrawkcaB ssA

Sounds like what I have... There is a point in life when it is not worth the effort of putting yourself through the BS you get.

 

Appreciation, understanding, acceptance, and trust is what we all need. Seems like they are all, at times not much to be had.

 

Hope you find yourself in every way soon. Sure you can poke at yourself to find error and faults, but they for the most part are not who you are. They grew from planted seeds in your marriage. They will not be who you are once you find your way.

 

All I can say is never give up on yourself and what you want. Some things cannot be understood and just happen, I hope what happens to you from here on is all good, or at least good will happen from it.

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I think when you go into a situation thinking "there is no way..." you let your walls down making it easy to become vested in that person.

 

I too have become close with a few females here but I'm fully aware of where it "could" go so I'm alert. Keeping all communication within the parameters of this site. My SO is aware of this and supports it being that I don't share many of my thoughts about this stuff with family and close friends. My thinking as it has been for many years is what I do or say this if she was here watching. Maybe once or twice in over 20 years has that answer been no.

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I told my friend and she laughed as we were penpals as she described it

 

See, this is what I don't get about "EAs". The people involved consider it a friendship, yet a partner feels threatened, and suddenly all hell breaks loose and the friends are accused of all kinds of heinous crimes against marriage, usually resulting in the friend whose partner freaked out having to walk away from the friendship to spare their partner's feelings - and feeling guilty for having a friend.

 

Sorry to hear, TDP. I hope you can find some list in there.

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Toodamnpragmatic

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

 

Of course there was no way this time (distance & situations made that easy). Heck that's why I did it to some extent. We could joke and flirt, but she had a family, I have a spouse who is gorgeous and I adore(when she doesn't drive me crazy).

 

But no excuses.... Funny that we have had some really good conversations the last few days and resentments that we knew were there but had no idea how deep they were have been discussed.

 

Trust me though, we are not past this yest.....

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Toodamnpragmatic
See, this is what I don't get about "EAs". The people involved consider it a friendship, yet a partner feels threatened, and suddenly all hell breaks loose and the friends are accused of all kinds of heinous crimes against marriage, usually resulting in the friend whose partner freaked out having to walk away from the friendship to spare their partner's feelings - and feeling guilty for having a friend.

 

Sorry to hear, TDP. I hope you can find some list in there.

 

Again we were more then penpals, we both know that, but certainly no EA....

 

However regardless there is no excuse.

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Wow, Tood - I had no idea.

 

Obviously, none of us did but thanks for the reminder for anyone of us of the slippery slope that can occur before we know it.

 

I'm a little jealous that in all my years here, I've never had anybody reach out to me via PM that has resulted in any offline friendships. :(

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Toodamnpragmatic
Wow, Tood - I had no idea.

 

Obviously, none of us did but thanks for the reminder for anyone of us of the slippery slope that can occur before we know it.

 

I'm a little jealous that in all my years here, I've never had anybody reach out to me via PM that has resulted in any offline friendships. :(

 

I guess I could downplay and say "It just happened". No blame or anything, but she reached out to me and sent me a PM. Went from there.

 

I've also always thought women for the most part share a whole lot more then men and can discuss feelings (and more). I have good friends and we discuss a lot, but marriages and heck for the most part sex (i.e. one's feeling and insecurities about it) is strictly forboden.

 

And yes as far as the pix sent (all 2 of them outside family to just show we're pretty normal:p) were PG.... Again not downplaying it.

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"I have male friends but I don't send them suggestive pics, nor do I ruminate about what would happen between us if we 'lived closer.' That's the difference between 'friends' and those dancing around the pit"

 

Quite

 

H was supportive of his female colleague for a while because her home life was terrible and her H was fairly unpleasant. We were both concerned for her - I knew her too. H used to tell me what she told him and I was sympathetic. That was OK. What was not Ok was when the supportiveness morphed into mutual ILYs and speculated on whether they could ever make a go of it as a couple if she left her H and H left me.

 

'Dancing around the pit' is such a good description - the knowledge of the danger, the exhiliration caused by the danger but still beleiving there is a chance to step away. I would never had beleived in a million years that a 'friendship' could be a problem to a marriage. I always used to be such a cool and unjealous wife. I HATE that I can't be like that anymore.

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But no excuses.... Funny that we have had some really good conversations the last few days and resentments that we knew were there but had no idea how deep they were have been discussed.

 

Trust me though, we are not past this yest.....

Hoping this will lead to some honest conversation with your spouse where you both lay your cards on the table. The best insurance against something like this is a vibrant relationship, including a healthy sex life.

 

A similar crisis (though not EA or PA based) led to a renaissance in my marriage. Hope the upside is there for you too ;) ...

 

Mr. Lucky

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Toodamnpragmatic
Hoping this will lead to some honest conversation with your spouse where you both lay your cards on the table. The best insurance against something like this is a vibrant relationship, including a healthy sex life.

 

A similar crisis (though not EA or PA based) led to a renaissance in my marriage. Hope the upside is there for you too ;) ...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

And neither was mine (though many would disagree). My wife knows how nuts I am about her. I think she takes some for granted (as do I).

 

The difference is, and usually a male thing is when sex is involved usually it is the male who feels rejected by it. Again am generalizing it.....

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You're using all the terminology of an EA - NC, trickle truth, how you betrayed your wife, etc. - and taking responsibility for your actions. Feeling guilty, it appears. Yet you don't consider it an EA. One is kind of at odds with the other. I'm curious, then, as to how you were "caught"? Is the guilt strictly a result of your W's reaction? Or your own perspective?

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I've been here an awful long time and at times was way too involved in the site and posting my thoughts and questions. I think and am pretty sure while people could jump to conclusions and I gave clues I seldom talked too much about my "actual" situation.

 

I probably wasted too much time here, my spouse knew about the site and I'd tell her some stories and state that LS has made me feel much better about my life and that my preoccupation about sex is sometimes silly (not wrong). Most of my complaints frankly are just superficial.

 

Anyhow started talking to someone here (opposite sex of course) and we forged a friendship. 3000 miles plus and thus no chance of it progressing anywhere. We then proceeded to talk on the phone. I emailed her a lot and would talk about our lives, this site, our f-ups and frustrations. Yes I talked a lot about my hang-ups and not understanding my spouse and why she reacts as she does and moods that I can't do anything about and often take blame. I did cross the line, but to me it was a place to vent, get perspective give advise and yep innocent flirting. Trust me I flirt and am continually all over my spouse:p;).

 

Maybe over 3.5 years 2 suggestive (artsy) pictures and talk "If we lived closer". Never ever once the word love or anything remotely close.

 

Frankly I had someone I could vent to and get insight into the female mind (good & bad). I talked about stuff I'd never share with my friends and frankly shouldn't. They know and all love my spouse (and too know she can be a hardass;)).

 

I expect and know my spouse shares her frustration with me to her friends/sisters and looking at our lives, while not story book is pretty damn good. She doesn't talk sex, but the running joke is they go "Poor toodamnpragmatic", because my spouse intimates how much I get shut down.

 

So I was "caught". Never hid it, but never came up. If it did I would be honest as not sure what I was hiding or why. I betrayed my wife and caused her great pain.

 

Of course I could go on "I've never had a female friend to discuss this stuff with, what's the big deal?" Yes absolutely wrong.

 

I've read more than enough here about EA's and laughed about many of them that just because it is someone of the opposite sex does not make it an EA. Heck even talked about it with my spouse (who hates these sites) and said there is so much more to it.

 

Yep, like said here there was the trickle truth and with her rage scared to tell her everything. She read many of the emails and of course the ones focusing on us and lame flirting (no sexts as stated) were heartbreaking to her. Frankly though I told her if she talked to a male friend about me, I'd be okay, because I do trust her (she goes on trips with her single friend and never thought twice). I'm pretty honest bout myself and know my strangths and weaknesses and that is why I play as much to my strengths as possible to do as much as I can for my spouse.

 

We had a very difficult week, saw a counselor (one on my own and once with her). Know there is a lot to work on and crossing my fingers.

 

What gave me strength and I know this may rankle some is my friends. I know those she talked to are not impressed with me and frankly say I should be dumped (pretty sure that was the reaction). However I came clean to my friends and their reaction (and they all love my spouse) was that they basically laughed.

 

My words to them (one was on the phone, the others we were meeting Friday to go to a baseball game) were "I have f'ed up my marriage". All of them responded, and I told them the story as honest as possible, was that boy I did something stupid, but I didn't really do anything (if that makes sense) and they found it funny and wondered why my spouse would leave me over a female friend.

 

I know many here will disagree, but that has given me a different perspective and was something I needed to hear.

 

So yes 6 days of NC and no withdrawals. I told my friend and she laughed as we were penpals as she described it (her spouse knows about me) and said she'd talk to my spouse (not a good idea). Things better at home and communication is much better for now.

 

We'll see where it goes.

 

I bolded something in what you said. You almost implied that the only thing that prevented a full fledged physical affair was 3k miles. So if this woman lived 5 minutes down the street from you it sounds like your feelings would have overwhelmed you and perhaps started the physical aspects of it. Am I wrong here? You basically got caught up just as much as anybody else in the beginning process of an affair. Though it sounds like you're trying to minimalize what it really was for one reason or another. You have obviously exhibited guilt over this hence the post. I wish you and your wife the best and hope you both will be able to use this to fix your problems you may have to get rid of the temptations of outside influences.

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GorillaTheater

EA's are not terribly rare on relationship sites. Two people with problems get to talking about them via PM, and before you know it feelings start to get involved. It takes some hard personal boundaries to keep things in check and above-board, and even then sometimes you screw up and let those boundaries slip.

 

I'm not going to throw stones. There used to be a woman here who I started down that road with. Luckily, things didn't go too far before we both realized the road we were about to go down. Nowadays, I don't send any woman a PM I wouldn't be willing to let my wife read.

 

Learn from this and take a hard, hard look at yourself. Best of luck, man.

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Toodamnpragmatic

Yep I was very lucky she was 3000 miles away and that I have a good relationship with my wife, would be a wimp, have too many hang-ups and while frusttrated at times am open and we do talk. She was a sounding board and I have admitted I shared way too much.

 

I know some people will get caught up that I have come clean about pictures and flirting with a sexually open woman and that is all that they need to know to state I have been unfaithful.

 

What I found interesting is I feel terrible about it all and never should have hidden it (and really didn't try as it was easily found). By the end while there was very little flirting (and never was there a whole lot) and not much talk about my issues as it was redundant as all I was doing was repeating myself, we talked about friends, family and work.

 

But it was coming clean to friends and they basically laughing that gave me a different perspective. Their advise was exactly the opposite of what I've read over and over on these sites. And not listening to them either. What they did was make me realize we are all imperfect and I did not cheat nor have an EA and will be okay.

 

I take responsibility, know what I did was disrespectful, wrong, stupid, childish...., but I did not CHEAT and certainly not an EA. I shared too much, didn't come clean, hid it (omitted it) have to make amends and gain her trust.....

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I take responsibility, know what I did was disrespectful, wrong, stupid, childish...., but I did not CHEAT and certainly not an EA. I shared too much, didn't come clean, hid it (omitted it) have to make amends and gain her trust.....

I'm not sure why it's so important for you to declare "not an EA". Based on your post:

 

- Shared inappropriate items such as suggestive pictures

- Told her private info about your feelings and marriage

- Hid it from your wife for an extended period of time

 

Isn't that an emotional affair :confused: ? And isn't owning up to one a step towards recovery? Not sure what you're protecting here...

 

Mr. Lucky

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Yup, hard stuff to share.

 

It'll get better. If it's any consolation, back when I was an OM, MW's didn't think similar activities were affairs since we didn't have sex. It's all relative and unique to people and their relationships.

 

In yours, presuming you wish to continue, the pivotal person's perspective to pay attention to is your spouse. She's the other party to the M and the health of it depends on both of you. If you're at loggerheads regarding definitions of affairs, well, my question to you is this the hill you want to die on?

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But it was coming clean to friends and they basically laughing that gave me a different perspective. Their advise was exactly the opposite of what I've read over and over on these sites. And not listening to them either. What they did was make me realize we are all imperfect and I did not cheat nor have an EA and will be okay.

 

You have to be careful with this, though. What really matters is how you feel about it, and to a certain extent how your W feels about it. Especially if you're really communicating. Friends are great to vent to and get that different perspective. However, I've found that only a minority tell you what you need to hear, instead of what you want to hear. Not to say I know your friends, but just from my own experience.

 

Also, I'm confused by the bolded. You did or didn't listen to them?

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Toodamnpragmatic

I guess it all comes down to one's definition of an EA. I was wrong and admit it over and over...... But I did not declare love or a need to be with her. I am an open person and frankly found someone I shared my thoughts and insecurities with. Trust me, my spouse knows them too, she just was not willing to address them. Again not her fault, I should have handled it better.

 

The fact my spouse shares her frustrations with me with her sister and friends certainly is not an EA. If she did it to a male friend I'd be okay too, as I know my faults and f-ups..... Also if she feels better and doesn't bottle it p, I think that is all good. Maybe I'm naive. Of course I'd want the OM 3000 miles away too!!!

 

Sex was much more a stumbling block on my end and my spouse knows it, so it is something I gained insight from the OW and also the fact that I place way too big a priority on it.

 

Again I am not looking for excuses. Just trying to lay it all out.

 

As for my friends, they thought it was funny, did not think it was at all an EA and said I should be the one taking the hard line and not begging forgiveness. I should be strong because I did not have a PA nor professed love...... And no I have not followed that tack. I haven't hid it, but I also am willing to tell her whatever she wants.

 

Again I have a lot to work on, however much better communication (and never was terrible) and discussions.

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GorillaTheater
I guess it all comes down to one's definition of an EA. I was wrong and admit it over and over...... But I did not declare love or a need to be with her.

 

Me either, but inappropriate feelings started to crop up. Close enough to an EA in my book.

 

I'm not convinced the label we put on it is important, but by the same token I don't like minimizing either. If you don't think it was an EA, that's fine. Unless your wife disagrees.

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As for my friends, they thought it was funny, did not think it was at all an EA and said I should be the one taking the hard line and not begging forgiveness. I should be strong because I did not have a PA nor professed love...... And no I have not followed that tack. I haven't hid it, but I also am willing to tell her whatever she wants.

 

Again I have a lot to work on, however much better communication (and never was terrible) and discussions.

 

Since she "caught" you, what's been your wife's reaction? And what has she asked of you in order to address this?

 

Mr. Lucky

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Toodamnpragmatic
Since she "caught" you, what's been your wife's reaction? And what has she asked of you in order to address this?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Again a bad week. Followed by 4 very good days (I think). Some of the stuff I've read here over the years has definitely happened. I've doe the NC and answered whatever questions she had. Saw a counselor once on my own and once together. She wants a new one.

 

I am trying to address the "issues" I present (beyond this episode).

 

All things considered it's going well. I like to talk and share my feelings/vent and opinions (take a look at all my posts on LS:p). She'd be the one mad/short with me when I'd talk about a thread here in the past.

 

The initial rage has subsided for now.

 

I have gone NC over a week and there is no ache to talk or email. We actually had as stated hit the point where I'd ask and comment some on her situation, but now we just talked about what was happening in our lives and that was it. She was tired of my old stories (and yes I was repetitive) that were going nowhere, so it was a friendship.

 

As said we'll see where it leads...... So far it is for the better (and that too I realize is wrong in some sense)......

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I sincerely wish and your W the best, and kudos to you for trying to be open with her about it. Not an easy task. So please take this constructively: You're being extremely wishy-washy about it. Very passive-aggressive, IMO. The relationship was inappropriate, however you want to label it. You seem to understand that, or at least understand you mishandled it. Yet your friends finding it funny makes you feel better about it. Which is it? You didn't do anything wrong, yet you're admitting wrong left and right.

 

Aside from that, there appears to be a big disconnect sexually between you and your W. Serious issue. Not something you just accept and say "My bad." Even stranger is that it sounds like the OW steered you in that direction. Your W isn't willing to address your insecurities. How is that NOT her fault?

 

I understand you want to communicate as much as possible, and tell your W everything. It just doesn't seem like you're actually taking responsibility for anything, nor making your W do so.

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I guess it all comes down to one's definition of an EA. I was wrong and admit it over and over...... But I did not declare love or a need to be with her. I am an open person and frankly found someone I shared my thoughts and insecurities with. Trust me, my spouse knows them too, she just was not willing to address them. Again not her fault, I should have handled it better.

 

I'm thinking that if you were getting what you needed in your marriage... this never would have happened.

 

Rather than allow her to blameshift all of this onto you... how about you take this opportunity to ask your wife to make some serious changes?

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Hey, TDP, sorry to read this!

 

Your friends laughing, when your wife is understandably in pain, well....sucks! That would be a second betrayal in my eyes. Be careful about that one.

 

Yes, a friendship can be ok. But this friendship had a lot of things that made it not ok. I agree that the label isn't necessarily important. Trust, care and loyalty are.

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