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Forgiveness: Is it useful, necessary? What does it look like to the BS? To the WS?


merrmeade

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Forgiveness: Is it useful, necessary? What does it look like to the BS? To the WS?

 

I'd like to hear from people without a religious bias please.

Forgiveness gets interpreted many ways and I think I really don't understand it and think it's overrated. I think if there's been betrayal that forgiveness is only useful and possible when the betrayer has proven him/herself to be a CHANGED PERSON over time. Short of that, what's the point? It's still possible to work on a relationship/reconciliation and not forgive the events, don't you think? Even necessary for protection not to trust the other person until and if s/he is, in fact, trustworthy.

 

Interested in thoughtful input. Thank you.

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Until you forgive you are unable to let go of all the bitterness and resentment. With those in the way true reconciliation is impossible. It is not about giving a free pass or not acknowledging the issues but moving forward. Forgiveness is hard and I think for most it comes in stages. I understand the whole need of the WS proving themselves to build trust (been there, done that) but if you have not forgiven them then nothing they do is ever enough.

 

It took me years to forgive my ex....wasted time and energy being angry that did absolutely nothing but hurt me in the long run. I can't control or change anything that was done, only how I handle it and honestly it wasn't until I forgave him that I put the past to bed (for the most part).

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GorillaTheater

You can't have true reconciliation without forgiveness, but you sure can have forgiveness without any reconciliation at all. The latter happens when you cut the last remaining emotional hose and stop letting the other person live rent-free in your head. It's pretty damn liberating, so in that sense forgiveness is the gift you give to yourself.

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ForeverTainted

I think some people believe forgiving is saying what was done to them is okay. But if that is the case then forgiveness wouldn't be necessary. I don't know if it is "necessary" but it is good for the one forgiving. Bitterness is not pleasant to live with. I think of forgiveness as no longer holding the offense against the offender. And it is something that not only takes time but often has to be done over and over. And has gorilla said it doesn't mean you have to reconcile. Some people won't change and it is better to end the relationship than try to change them.

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Forgiveness: Is it useful, necessary?

I don't think it's necessary. We should all own our mistakes, separate of how the person we've hurt feels. As a BS, I don't feel I need to forgive anyone - my WS, the OM, friend of my WS who enabled her in some ways. It's part of our story now, and I've chosen to begin again and attempt to move forward.

 

It's still possible to work on a relationship/reconciliation and not forgive the events, don't you think?

Yes. I often think of the Bob Marley quote: “The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”

 

(Of course, Bob was a noted adulterer, so it's easy for him to say.);)

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As a betrayed spouse in a reconciled relationship, many years out, I truly believe that the key if acceptance, not forgiveness.

 

I have not forgiven my spouse, nor is it a particular goal of mine.

 

I have accepted what happened in the past. He has worked like crazy to handle the issues that led to the betrayal. He has proven himself to be a safe partner, and worthy of trust.

 

But forgiveness is not really a thing I do. I am not religious ( although my spouse is), and forgiveness is not something I find necessary to be happy or complete. Forgiveness changes nothing, it doesn't affect how I view my beloved spouse.

 

So I agree with the OP that reconciliation, and a successful and happy life can be obtained without forgiveness.

 

There's an excellent book by Janis Springs Abram ( or reversed last names) on just this topic. I highly recommend it.

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This is honestly something I'm having a hard time with. I met with IC last week and she spoke to me about removing the things in our relationship that is preventing me from getting there.

 

1) Pride

2) Need to punish

3) Social judgement

4) time

5) urge to be right or hold moral high ground

 

I admit I struggle with 3 of the 5.

 

After her affair I divorced her and after a year and a half I thought I had forgiven her. We started being more involved and progressed from there. Once I made the commitment to try and put US back together I begun to have triggers. Where I would trigger anger would bubble and I struggled with numbers 1 & 2.

 

I understand that forgiveness isn't really about saying its only or that I'm weak. Its about ME (or all BS's) about opening our hearts up to let love flow. About leting go of the hurt, about moving past all the nasty that the affair poured on our life, about finding peace, even if its with someone else.

 

Yes its a must, no matter the outcome of the relationship. Holding on will affect any relationship that comes after.

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This is honestly something I'm having a hard time with. I met with IC last week and she spoke to me about removing the things in our relationship that is preventing me from getting there.

 

1) Pride

2) Need to punish

3) Social judgement

4) time

5) urge to be right or hold moral high ground

 

I admit I struggle with 3 of the 5.

 

After her affair I divorced her and after a year and a half I thought I had forgiven her. We started being more involved and progressed from there. Once I made the commitment to try and put US back together I begun to have triggers. Where I would trigger anger would bubble and I struggled with numbers 1 & 2.

 

I understand that forgiveness isn't really about saying its only or that I'm weak. Its about ME (or all BS's) about opening our hearts up to let love flow. About leting go of the hurt, about moving past all the nasty that the affair poured on our life, about finding peace, even if its with someone else.

 

Yes its a must, no matter the outcome of the relationship. Holding on will affect any relationship that comes after.

 

Not to push on you, but maybe part of the issue is that you are placing pressure on yourself to forgive?

 

I struggled with that- a lot. It was only after I let go of the idea that everyone has to forgive to heal, and realized it is a personal thing, not a universal truth, that I started to really move forward.

 

I have no quarrel with those who feel to forgive is a necessary component in reconciliation. But there is another viewpoint, and it is also a valid choice. There are others like me, who have chosen not to focus on the forgiveness model, and have a happy and peaceful life and relationship.

 

I wish you great peace ahead. It's a hard road to travel.

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This is honestly something I'm having a hard time with. I met with IC last week and she spoke to me about removing the things in our relationship that is preventing me from getting there.

 

1) Pride

2) Need to punish

3) Social judgement

4) time

5) urge to be right or hold moral high ground

 

I admit I struggle with 3 of the 5.

 

After her affair I divorced her and after a year and a half I thought I had forgiven her. We started being more involved and progressed from there. Once I made the commitment to try and put US back together I begun to have triggers. Where I would trigger anger would bubble and I struggled with numbers 1 & 2.

 

I understand that forgiveness isn't really about saying its only or that I'm weak. Its about ME (or all BS's) about opening our hearts up to let love flow. About leting go of the hurt, about moving past all the nasty that the affair poured on our life, about finding peace, even if its with someone else.

 

Yes its a must, no matter the outcome of the relationship. Holding on will affect any relationship that comes after.

 

Yes, I'm struggling, too, but frankly don't give a rat's ass about forgiveness. When I see true remorse, it seems to be there but we weave back and forth so much (or rather he does with his own denial about what was really 'bad' and what I still have a right to feel 'bad' about) that I'm obviously not there - at forgiveness, that is, and I think in the case of my particular BH, I'd be a fool to be there. The thing is I don't feel the need to "let it go" but sometimes think I'm less evolved somehow that I don't forgive outright and move on.

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There are lots of people for whom forgiveness means validation of the offense. Acceptance is the best they can do because, for them, nothing can mitigate the offense of infidelity. I repeat, I believe MANY people cannot forgive - there are those who can.

 

Reconciliation makes forgiving infidelity even more difficult because you have to see the WS every day. Triggers, triggers, and more triggers just looking at him/her. A BS should take this into consideration before committing to reconciliation because recovery is going to take longer if you continue to live with WS - and you are never going to get that time back. When you factor in the loss of trust and the feeling that your love is special because you have given sex only to each other the case for divorce gets stronger.

 

I recommend "How Can I Forgive You?" by Janis Abrahms Spring to all BS's.

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There are lots of people for whom forgiveness means validation of the offense. Acceptance is the best they can do because, for them, nothing can mitigate the offense of infidelity. I repeat, I believe MANY people cannot forgive - there are those who can.

 

Reconciliation makes forgiving infidelity even more difficult because you have to see the WS every day. Triggers, triggers, and more triggers just looking at him/her. A BS should take this into consideration before committing to reconciliation because recovery is going to take longer if you continue to live with WS - and you are never going to get that time back. When you factor in the loss of trust and the feeling that your love is special because you have given sex only to each other the case for divorce gets stronger.

 

I recommend "How Can I Forgive You?" by Janis Abrahms Spring to all BS's.

 

Thanks, Drifter. This speaks to a lot of my issues.

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The thing is I don't feel the need to "let it go" but sometimes think I'm less evolved somehow that I don't forgive outright and move on.

I struggle with that also...but then I think...it is not "evolved" to forgive someone who has not (yet) earned it...it is simply foolish and short-sighted.

 

This definition helps me, when I'm struggling with forgiveness: Forgiving implies that all resentment and anger have been eliminated and ideas of revenge, unpaid debts and punishment no longer exist. (From 'How to Start Having Happiness and Fulfillment'.)

 

Then there's also this, but I don't know the source: Forgiveness includes holding others accountable for their attitudes, behaviour, words, deeds and for their impact on you. It is unreasonable all around, to expect forgiveness in an environment of entitlement, selfishness and insensitivity.

Forgiveness means to give someone a second chance...but they must earn (work for) their forgiveness and consistently prove that they know that mistreating you is wrong and unacceptable. Their own fears and insecurities do not mitigate!

The other person is responsible – and must be held accountable – for facilitating an understanding of his or her own motives and behaviour.

 

 

I'm not really sure if that'll offer you any relief, comfort, answers...but these are my primary resources when I'm bashing myself for not "just" being able to let go, get over and move on with grace and pride and dignity (and all of that).

 

Hugs and best.

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Not to push on you, but maybe part of the issue is that you are placing pressure on yourself to forgive?

 

I struggled with that- a lot. It was only after I let go of the idea that everyone has to forgive to heal, and realized it is a personal thing, not a universal truth, that I started to really move forward.

 

I have no quarrel with those who feel to forgive is a necessary component in reconciliation. But there is another viewpoint, and it is also a valid choice. There are others like me, who have chosen not to focus on the forgiveness model, and have a happy and peaceful life and relationship.

 

I wish you great peace ahead. It's a hard road to travel.

I don't believe its necessary for reconciliation, nor is it for her. I believe its important for me. Maybe its wishful thinking, or that carrot hanging just out of reach.

 

I get the acceptance, I accept what happened, I accept that I or she can't change it, yet I'm still angry as f u c k when I wake up at 3am dreaming about catching her. Its been 7 years.

Maybe that's something that won't go away. Maybe I'm one of those that can't truely move past it.

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I don't believe its necessary for reconciliation, nor is it for her. I believe its important for me. Maybe its wishful thinking, or that carrot hanging just out of reach.

 

I get the acceptance, I accept what happened, I accept that I or she can't change it, yet I'm still angry as f u c k when I wake up at 3am dreaming about catching her. Its been 7 years.

Maybe that's something that won't go away. Maybe I'm one of those that can't truely move past it.

 

And that is okay to recognize that, too. You certainly have tried very hard and done a lot of work.

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yet I'm still angry as f u c k when I wake up at 3am dreaming about catching her.

That's the struggle, I think...as if, once we "forgive" then we won't -- or can't, or are not 'supposed to' -- sometimes feel angry or some other so-called 'negative' emotion about it. To me, that is mostly an unrealistic, unreasonable self-expectation...I don't think "forgiveness" precludes also other, more reactive emotions...occasionally.

 

Only, IMO, that after forgiveness one no longer wants to bash-in walls...or demolish egos...or crush skulls. Hhmmm...so, perhaps...when there is no more violence (wrath, vengefulness) in our most-frequent, every-day thoughts and feelings? Maybe.

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Merrmeade,

 

I am religious and may have a bias, but I think I can make an argument for forgiveness on a practical basis that you may find useful.

 

Forgiveness is for both you and the person who wronged you. It can free you from being controlled by what happened in the past.

 

Forgiving the person who betrayed you does not mean you accept what they did, that you will forget what they did, that you condone what they did or that you will continue to let them hurt you.

 

The wrong that a WS does to the BS can never be undone or made up for. When there is no forgiveness, you end up with something like a family feud or a perpetual war; each new provocation and response gets justified by things that happened in the past. Neither party can move forward and find happiness.

 

By forgiving the WS, you are releasing yourself from the hold the past will have on you. Eventually the anger will go away even though the memory does not. If you separate/divorce but do not forgive, you are giving your ex the power to meddle in and potentially ruin any future relationships you may attempt. The triggers will still be active and will generate the harmful response. If you forgive, you are disarming the trap that is connected to those triggers.

 

If you are trying to reconcile, there is a different trap....if you forgive too quickly before the issues are brought into the open and addressed, that becomes rug sweeping and the cycle of hurt will continue.

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I really wish people would phrase things with more of an acknowledgment that there can be different paths.

 

It's not hard to take a step back and not make assumptions about what forgiveness will or will not do, and to relate more of how it personally affects each respondent instead.

 

Some people need to forgive to heal. Some people do not. Speaking in absolutes just creates artificial separation amongst a community of people who are all seeking the same thing - peace and happiness.

 

I hope we can all remember that as we share our experiences. It is absolutely not one size fits all- and I think I would have personally been very depressed had I accepted the premise that there is only one path to healing in terms of the concept of forgiveness.

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GorillaTheater

People are just sharing their perspective based on their personal experiences. I don't see anyone here shoving their views down anyone else's throat.

 

It's a given that folks have to choose their own path.

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Merrmeade,

 

I am religious and may have a bias, but I think I can make an argument for forgiveness on a practical basis that you may find useful.

 

Forgiveness is for both you and the person who wronged you. It can free you from being controlled by what happened in the past.

 

Forgiving the person who betrayed you does not mean you accept what they did, that you will forget what they did, that you condone what they did or that you will continue to let them hurt you.

 

The wrong that a WS does to the BS can never be undone or made up for. When there is no forgiveness, you end up with something like a family feud or a perpetual war; each new provocation and response gets justified by things that happened in the past. Neither party can move forward and find happiness.

 

By forgiving the WS, you are releasing yourself from the hold the past will have on you. Eventually the anger will go away even though the memory does not. If you separate/divorce but do not forgive, you are giving your ex the power to meddle in and potentially ruin any future relationships you may attempt. The triggers will still be active and will generate the harmful response. If you forgive, you are disarming the trap that is connected to those triggers.

 

If you are trying to reconcile, there is a different trap....if you forgive too quickly before the issues are brought into the open and addressed, that becomes rug sweeping and the cycle of hurt will continue.

What you are describing here is what I consider acceptance. Forgiveness is something the betrayer must earn - and even then the betrayed may not be able to find forgiveness.

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ForeverTainted

If we are discussing to forgive in a dictionary way.

 

for·give

fərˈgiv/

verb

stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.

"I don't think I'll ever forgive David for the way he treated her"

synonyms: pardon, excuse, exonerate, absolve; More

antonyms: blame, resent

stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for (an offense, flaw, or mistake).

"they are not going to pat my head and say all is forgiven"

 

Then some saying they have reconciled but not forgiven either have not had the sort of reconciliation and marriage most want to work for or they have a skewered definition of what forgiveness is and really have in fact dictionary defined forgiven.

 

Because the opposite would be you are still angry and resentful. Hold the affair over your SO's head. Punish and remain imbalanced. I don't know if a relationship such as that is what should be the model of reconciliation. It certainly wouldn't be a good one.

 

But of that is all you want and good enough for those involved both Bs and WS then that is the individual's choice. Like an open marriage I don't quite get why one would remain married but never forgive wrongdoing. Except for kids, agree or disagree I see staying because of kids.

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People are just sharing their perspective based on their personal experiences. I don't see anyone here shoving their views down anyone else's throat.

 

It's a given that folks have to choose their own path.

 

There are many statements that say forgiveness has to occur in the previous posts. Many. Including the one directly above my last post, for starters.

 

I do not mean to thread jack. My apologies to OP.

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If we are discussing to forgive in a dictionary way.

 

for·give

fərˈgiv/

verb

stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.

"I don't think I'll ever forgive David for the way he treated her"

synonyms: pardon, excuse, exonerate, absolve; More

antonyms: blame, resent

stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for (an offense, flaw, or mistake).

"they are not going to pat my head and say all is forgiven"

 

Then some saying they have reconciled but not forgiven either have not had the sort of reconciliation and marriage most want to work for or they have a skewered definition of what forgiveness is and really have in fact dictionary defined forgiven.

 

Because the opposite would be you are still angry and resentful. Hold the affair over your SO's head. Punish and remain imbalanced. I don't know if a relationship such as that is what should be the model of reconciliation. It certainly wouldn't be a good one.

 

But of that is all you want and good enough for those involved both Bs and WS then that is the individual's choice. Like an open marriage I don't quite get why one would remain married but never forgive wrongdoing. Except for kids, agree or disagree I see staying because of kids.

 

This is exactly the type of comment I was speaking about.

 

Sigh.

 

I know the quality of my own reconciliation. And the peace in my own heart. Until you have walked in my shoes, please don't make such statements about how much my reconciliation must not be real, or even better than that, that I ( and others like me) don't understand forgiveness. t's rude.

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What you are describing here is what I consider acceptance. Forgiveness is something the betrayer must earn - and even then the betrayed may not be able to find forgiveness.

 

Yes. Exactly. And if the betrayed chooses not to focus on forgiveness because other aspects are more important ( or like me- as a non religious person, it has no weight in my life), it just might be something that isn't a goal .

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ForeverTainted
This is exactly the type of comment I was speaking about.

 

Sigh.

 

I know the quality of my own reconciliation. And the peace in my own heart. Until you have walked in my shoes, please don't make such statements about how much my reconciliation must not be real, or even better than that, that I ( and others like me) don't understand forgiveness. t's rude.

 

So you still hold the affair over your husband's head. I have often seen it quoted by BS a few years out from DDay saying they haven't and won't ever forgive ther spouse but are remaining married. As this post was for discussion and the sharing of different point of views i merely was wondering how one can feel peace and reconciled while still resenting and holding the affair over their WS's head. Does the WS not know this? Do thy know they can never be forgiven and will always remain beneath the BS? Or have these people actually forgiven and don't know it? They may not be talking forgiveness but they are walking it?

 

It seems to be a common idea and i simply do not understand it.

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ForeverTainted
Yes. Exactly. And if the betrayed chooses not to focus on forgiveness because other aspects are more important ( or like me- as a non religious person, it has no weight in my life), it just might be something that isn't a goal .

 

Acceptance is no longer denying something took place and acknowleding that you cannot undo what is done. Almost everyone accepts that and affair happened except those that live in denial/rugsweep. Acceptance is important to rebuilding a good relationship. But it isn't the only ingredient.

 

Unless of course the person has accepted that they will forever resent their spouse. I guess that is okay for some people. Still doesn't seem healthy.

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