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Guilty by Association


Confused48

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I never understood why in some cultures, if a member of the family commits adultery, then that person is killed to save face for the rest of the family. I still don't get how killing the person is helpful but I do now understand how the idea of a family member doing something shameful, can make others in the family feel bad about themselves.

 

My WS had an A. It was a horrible thing for WS to do. WS is rightfully ashamed of self, for those acts.

 

I was surprised though to feel like the shamefulness of it touches me too. I feel like since I'm still with WS it seems I’m condoning the bad behavior. Almost as bad as if I’m the one doing it. Not quite but close. But that is the kind of shame I feel. Like I got into the gutter with WS and the AP and did morally reprehensible things.

 

WS has done most things I've asked as a requirement to our trying to reconcile and some that I didn't ask but am grateful for. I want to keep working on recon but feel ashamed of that decision. Like its not a morally acceptable thing to do.

 

I think I'd feel somewhat the same if I found out WS was a bank robber. Not as bad since I think to rob a bank is a lesser offense than to cheat on your spouse but similar.

 

Before anyone jumps on me - yes - WS has suffered serious negative consequences for the A. Self imposed consequences, consequences from my reaction, as well as other typical consequences of any A. WS is still suffering new consequences occasionally and old ones continue to affect WS.

 

And no this is not a thread about whether or not I am to weak/fearful to be without WS. I just feel ashamed. Not sure how to deal with that.

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You need counseling to help with your boundary.

 

What she's done is hers. It's a direct reflection on her and her lack of integrity.

 

Your entanglement in her bad behavior may be the reason why you've stayed and overlooked so many of the things she should have changed about herself.

 

She may have changed some - but history shows it's not enough for you to trust her.

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...

I was surprised though to feel like the shamefulness of it touches me too. I feel like since I'm still with WS it seems I’m condoning the bad behavior. Almost as bad as if I’m the one doing it.

 

WS has done most things I've asked as a requirement to our trying to reconcile and some that I didn't ask but am grateful for. I want to keep working on recon but feel ashamed of that decision. Like its not a morally acceptable thing to do.

...

This has been a huge problem for me for a long, long time. My brain keeps playing the thought "how could you accept that slut back into your life - you are pathetic" over and over. Its part of my basic belief system and I don't think it's possible to completely change that thinking. It's who I am and it makes finding peace and acceptance a dream I don't think I can achieve.

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This has been a huge problem for me for a long, long time. My brain keeps playing the thought "how could you accept that slut back into your life - you are pathetic" over and over. Its part of my basic belief system and I don't think it's possible to completely change that thinking. It's who I am and it makes finding peace and acceptance a dream I don't think I can achieve.

 

This is your conscience part of your brain telling you that you need to change things.

 

But you're not listening to your gut. You're not taking action to change your life.

 

When you have accepted what's unacceptable - the brain keeps kicking you to consider changing things.

 

Leaving things the same is just betraying self.

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This has been a huge problem for me for a long, long time. My brain keeps playing the thought "how could you accept that slut back into your life - you are pathetic" over and over. Its part of my basic belief system and I don't think it's possible to completely change that thinking. It's who I am and it makes finding peace and acceptance a dream I don't think I can achieve.

 

Hey Drifter,

 

Sorry to hear you are so unhappy. I read your recent thread too. Maybe we have different definitions of slut but I don't think one affair makes your WW a slut. Maybe you were just using that as way to convey your disgust?

 

I don't feel weak or pathetic right now. Not saying I have never. I just feel shame.

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Hey Drifter,

 

Sorry to hear you are so unhappy. I read your recent thread too. Maybe we have different definitions of slut but I don't think one affair makes your WW a slut. Maybe you were just using that as way to convey your disgust?

 

I don't feel weak or pathetic right now. Not saying I have never. I just feel shame.

It was a ONS with a random guy plus 3 weeks of shacking up with another guy. So for a month she was a slut. The things that run through our minds usually can't be censored - they just flow.

 

You cannot feel shame unless you take that feeling and validate it somehow. For me its because I believe I am weak & pathetic so feeling shame for staying with her is logical. What feeling(s) are at the heart of your shame?

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You are feeling this because you are not sure of yourself. You are not sure about the decision you made. Honestly you do need counseling.

 

Did you agree to her cheating. Probably not. Did you like it. I doubt it seriously. But you did stay with you. To often people continue to cheat on the person they are with because they can get away with it. You are going to be associated with these people regardless due to the fact you did stay.

Once a person cheats and they are accepted back in its way easier for them to repeat the behavior.

 

Its horrible but its like the old adage: Once a Thief always a Thief.

 

She may have learned her lesson but people are going to go with what is most common and realistic to them.

 

Clay

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It was a ONS with a random guy plus 3 weeks of shacking up with another guy. So for a month she was a slut. The things that run through our minds usually can't be censored - they just flow.

 

You cannot feel shame unless you take that feeling and validate it somehow. For me its because I believe I am weak & pathetic so feeling shame for staying with her is logical. What feeling(s) are at the heart of your shame?

 

Not doing the right thing. I'm the type that wants to do the right thing. It seems like I'm condoning this. Not doing right by society rules. I forget what the term my IC used, something like global judgement. I feel the awareness of group thinking that it is not right. I'm glad I said that bc thinking about it, deep down, what really matters is, do I think it is right. I should not be looking externally to form that opinion. I can't help feeling that global whatever though.

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You are feeling this because you are not sure of yourself. You are not sure about the decision you made. Honestly you do need counseling.

 

Did you agree to her cheating. Probably not. Did you like it. I doubt it seriously. But you did stay with you. To often people continue to cheat on the person they are with because they can get away with it. You are going to be associated with these people regardless due to the fact you did stay.

Once a person cheats and they are accepted back in its way easier for them to repeat the behavior.

 

Its horrible but its like the old adage: Once a Thief always a Thief.

 

She may have learned her lesson but people are going to go with what is most common and realistic to them.

 

Clay

 

I don't believe that people can't change. I have myself in pretty dramatic ways over the course of my life.

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Not doing the right thing. I'm the type that wants to do the right thing. It seems like I'm condoning this. Not doing right by society rules. I forget what the term my IC used, something like global judgement. I feel the awareness of group thinking that it is not right. I'm glad I said that bc thinking about it, deep down, what really matters is, do I think it is right. I should not be looking externally to form that opinion. I can't help feeling that global whatever though.

Got it. Now, how does knowing you are not doing what you think is "right" make you feel?

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I don't believe that people can't change. I have myself in pretty dramatic ways over the course of my life.

 

I am not saying people can't change and It is clear that there are people that have cheated and corrected themselves. I am just saying Most people you come across are going to look at your situation as such until they get to know you better.

 

Clay

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If the cheater shows that they completely change - showing that they are no longer selfish and are only willing to consider your feelings and how their bad behavior has affected you - and are completely willing to do anything to set things rights and earn your trust back- then you have reconciling to consider.

 

If ego and entitlement still show - then she's not doing her part in it to give you peace of mind.

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It was a ONS with a random guy plus 3 weeks of shacking up with another guy. So for a month she was a slut.

 

 

Dang! Yep I think that would qualify, sorry the he'll you and the OP have gone through.

 

Anything around "self consequences" I am suspicious of, i have read stories here where it was all an act or for not, but there are those that do so once out of the fog I suppose. I don't know what the OP means by typical consequences, but the BS is the final say as to the M for the actions of the WS or should be. They were forced the bad hand and in the end, for at least in part know the WS the best to some extent, of course the A certainly begs the question in that regard. But the BS should be the best judge if the "shame" is truly felt but then again.....

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This has been a huge problem for me for a long, long time. My brain keeps playing the thought "how could you accept that slut back into your life - you are pathetic" over and over. Its part of my basic belief system and I don't think it's possible to completely change that thinking. It's who I am and it makes finding peace and acceptance a dream I don't think I can achieve.

 

Its because you are a man and there is a double standard against women. Men cheat all the time and women forgive them because "men will be men" (love how selfish men use that phrase) and men can have sex without it meaning anything (total crap, women can too)

 

If you are a woman and divorce your husband for cheating on you ONCE, people view you as insane for throwing your marriage away. But men do it all the time and see nothing wrong with it even if their wife has shown full remorse and is willing to work on things. If you were a woman itd be the opposite

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Its because you are a man and there is a double standard against women. Men cheat all the time and women forgive them because "men will be men" (love how selfish men use that phrase) and men can have sex without it meaning anything (total crap, women can too)

 

If you are a woman and divorce your husband for cheating on you ONCE, people view you as insane for throwing your marriage away. But men do it all the time and see nothing wrong with it even if their wife has shown full remorse and is willing to work on things. If you were a woman itd be the opposite

 

Hmm, my in laws and many others have a special name too for cheating men, "pigs". I have yet to see a double standard nor would I accept the premise as the norm. For the record I have seen too much infidelity from friends and family and most whom at least were caught are women. Even so, I don't buy into this men cheat all the time mantra, it's all a well balanced dance from where I sitting. In the end, a set bias doesn't excuse "slutty" or "piggy" behavior.

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here is what happens after DDay.....?

 

family members come out of the woodwork telling you to kick that slut or lying SOB to the curb....Family LOVES you and circles their wagons when YOU are in pain.....

 

OR, if they themselves have dealt with one whiff of infidelity in their marriage, advise you to reconcile for the sake of the children and appearances....like they have.

 

your children are sobbing into their pillows nightly. They had the PERFECT childhood; one you worked mightily to attain for them, and They are shattered.

 

You wrestle between your needs and your children's needs; the oldest pleads reconcile because you have always been the strongest parent and can do this; you've done everything else necessary to give them a stable upbringing, so what is one more sacrifice?

 

the middle child wants you to divorce tomorrow, until they go to counseling and meet an IC who who paints you as a co-dependent enabler who must somehow deserve this scenario....

 

Your youngest, the happy baby, wants it all to go back to the way it use to be, and if it cannot, wants you to be happy like the way you use to be before DDay.

 

Balance all that with your desire to have a happy, intimate marriage with a person who has just proclaimed themselves to be lying, deceitful, damaged goods....with an equally damaged, dramatic, AP....well

 

HATS OFF to anyone who can navigate this devastating scenario with their dignity and integrity intact.

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Its because you are a man and there is a double standard against women. Men cheat all the time and women forgive them because "men will be men" (love how selfish men use that phrase) and men can have sex without it meaning anything (total crap, women can too)

 

If you are a woman and divorce your husband for cheating on you ONCE, people view you as insane for throwing your marriage away. But men do it all the time and see nothing wrong with it even if their wife has shown full remorse and is willing to work on things. If you were a woman itd be the opposite

 

I'm sorry, but this is bull. I see men taking as much crap as women for cheating, at least on this forum. Also for me in real life it has been a long time since I've seen this horribly old fashioned "boys will be boys" attitude.

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As for the topic, this is why I ultimately just say cheating should not be forgiven. It takes too much of a toll, this person who forgives will still have to suffer the little things in a relationship with their cheating partner from now on.

 

The worst is thinking you can handle it and then finding out later you can't. You feel like the one who has done something wrong then..like you wasted everyone's time. Then of course you get angry at your cheating spouse because you feel bad for something they did, even though you know that is wrong..and it just builds in a cycle, etc.

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OP, it is NO different than a bank robbery, rape, burglary of a convenience store.......

 

if someone in your family commits a CRIME OR ACT OF INDISCRETION....like infidelity....the whole family suffers.

 

It is called being found guilty by a jury of your PEERS....whether in a courtroom or not.

 

people JUDGE and judge by association. It is NOT fair always....but it happens all the time.

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confusedandhurt2002

I absolutely feel this way. I feel like my friends and some of my family look at me and shake their heads because they can't figure out why I'm still staying with my husband, despite the fact he has done so much to make ammends (counseling with a personal counselor, marriage counseling, meeting with our pastor, giving me the password to all his accounts, leaving his phone where I can see it, talking to me about issues he felt led to all this...though sometimes I hate the blame game, he's at least trying).

 

I totally get what you are saying. I could have written this myself.

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I guess I am different because in all the years obly three times have I shook my head at a BS staying. And i have never felt that any of them are weak or less than. The three I did not agree with were

1. Man was caught spending a night with a woman 30 years younger than him. He denied anything, then blamed the girl (she was 20). Around the same time he had charges pressed against him for molesting five teenage girls. He of course was also innocent of that. Despite his very obvious taste towards young girls. His wife took him back and shut everyone else out.

2. An old friend of mine has been cheated on by her H at least four times that she has caught him. None were ONS either. He is always up for an affair. Nobody likes him but they all tolerate him for her. But everyone's patience is wearing thin as he is obviously in another affair. She just thinks he is friendly and some girls read into too much.

3. My cousin has forgiven is wife more times thab I can count for havin ONS. She does well, starts getting depressed, then heads to the bar and picks up a guy. The next day she cries and cries and tells him she will change or kill herself. Rinse and repeat since they started dating as teenagers. They are in their 30s.

I believe those sort of people have made themselves guilty by assosiation. But at the end of the day it is still their life and their choice. And none of my business.

 

I have never judged anyone for divorcing because of infidelity. If the ws is truly destroyed over it I feel bad for them but also know it is a problem of their own making. I do wish that the waywards who are truly repentive and will never do such a thing could get a second chance. The not sorry but only sorry they were caught? Yeah, they deserve to have their a$$ being dumped. Problem is, only time will tell who is who.

 

We as human's are far too judgemental of other people's choices (I am talking outside of the immediate family). I know I am guilty of it.

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Got it. Now, how does knowing you are not doing what you think is "right" make you feel?

 

 

I'm not at all sure it is not right. It might be the right thing for me, personally. It might be a morally acceptable thing to do. It might not even be wrong from the global consciousness point of view.

 

I do wish that there were something WS could do that I could point to and say, "Look, WS did X, so of course it is ok that I'm still with WS."

 

Going back to the bank robber analogy, if I could say, look my bank robber spouse did their time and paid restitution and is counseling troubled youth.... I don't know what WS can do in this situation though. Being remorseful, being transparent, being in IC, being in MC, hell, even doing everything right/perfect from now on, I don't see that as being enough. Maybe thats on me if perfection wouldn't be good enough?

 

I still don't see myself ever being able to hold my head high and say, look, of course I should be with WS even though there was an A. I still feel some sense of shame for it.

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Its because you are a man and there is a double standard against women. Men cheat all the time and women forgive them because "men will be men" (love how selfish men use that phrase) and men can have sex without it meaning anything (total crap, women can too)

 

If you are a woman and divorce your husband for cheating on you ONCE, people view you as insane for throwing your marriage away. But men do it all the time and see nothing wrong with it even if their wife has shown full remorse and is willing to work on things. If you were a woman itd be the opposite

 

I Totally agree.

 

Hmm, my in laws and many others have a special name too for cheating men, "pigs". I have yet to see a double standard nor would I accept the premise as the norm. For the record I have seen too much infidelity from friends and family and most whom at least were caught are women. Even so, I don't buy into this men cheat all the time mantra, it's all a well balanced dance from where I sitting. In the end, a set bias doesn't excuse "slutty" or "piggy" behavior.

 

Interesting counter point. Can't say I don't totally agree with you as well. Hmm......

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I'm sorry, but this is bull. I see men taking as much crap as women for cheating, at least on this forum. Also for me in real life it has been a long time since I've seen this horribly old fashioned "boys will be boys" attitude.

 

I do see it still. I see a lot less but still it is there. Even on this forum. You see men posting to other men that bc you are a man, you can never accept a PA. No "real" man would ever accept a PA.

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lilmisscantbewrong

Let me tell you how the two men in my life (husband and xmom) were treated. Xmom fell off the face of the earth, he was surrounded by pastor and long time friends and two family members of our family sided with him because I was dubbed as the "Jezebel" that made him fall. He never faced the consequences I did. My husband even told him on dday (the only conversation he had with him) that I would be a bunny boiler. This from a man I had lived with for over 30 years and had never exhibited that kind of behavior or anything close.

 

I think if confused everyone when several years later I wasn't anywhere around or near what I had been painted to be.

 

My husband? Well he had his own affair and I kept that pretty quiet. He has not had the same fallout that I had - nowhere near it. And guess what? Even though he tried to not talk about his xmow in a bad light, he has said some things to make me think SHE could be a bunny boiler and although I know she still stops by the office from time to time, I have not seen that behavior from her, really.

 

So in my personal experience, the men pretty much placed the blame on their OW.

 

Yes - in my little neck of the woods - the woman still takes the majority of the heat for affairs.

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