Bitter Better....

[Betterthanthis13]

Part one:

I'm feeling bitter and I hate it. I just want to rise above all this mess already and it is NOT happening. I actually just typed out a massive rant but I will spare you all, I deleted it and moved it to the notepad. Ugh. It's pathetic. I'm sick of myself.

 

Part two:

I did find an article that was interesting, inspired by something in another thread that caused me (yeah, caused, lol) to do a weird google search and I came across this short article----link below, and then the body of the text. "Rape of the heart" is what stands out to me.

 

Ethical Responsibility? | Caught in the Cogs

 

 

 

Last week, a colleague and I were discussing polyamory vs. infidelity. The latter she called non-consensual non-monagamy. I had never heard it put quite that way before, but that’s exactly what it is. One person in a couple decides to be non-monogamous. Doesn’t tell the other.

 

People are so quick to judge someone who chooses a consensually non-monagamous lifestyle, but the operative word there is *consensual.* Everybody knows. Everyone is respected. Everybody is okay and secure and cared for. Everybody is safe in the honesty. In the know.

 

Non-consensual non-monagamy is another matter. Infidelity. Cheating. Lying. Deception. When this colleague said the words “non-consensual non-monagamy,” something clicked in my brain.

 

The word “non-consensual” says it all, really. It speaks to the inherent violation, conjuring up images of non-consensual sex; i.e. rape.

 

Infidelity is a rape of the heart.

 

It is a rape of trust.

 

It is a rape of the life built together. Of family. Of emotional bonds. Of marital vows.

 

So…here comes the controversial ethical dilemma:

 

If you know a person is cheating on their spouse and getting away with it, do you have an ethical responsibility to tell the spouse? Or do you keep quiet, allowing them to continue a life of deception, becoming a part of that deception yourself?

 

What if there are children involved?

 

What if you were the other wo/man?

 

What if the cheater is your best friend? What if the deceived is your best friend?

 

If it was your marriage/relationship, would you want to know your spouse was lying to you? Cheating on you? Or would you want to be kept in the dark? “What I don’t know won’t hurt me.”

 

What if this cheater was destroying other lives/marriages all while keeping his/her own spouse in the dark?

 

Under what circumstances would it be acceptable to inform the spouse of the deception?

 

This colleague gave me this analogy:

 

Scenario: Someone you know has a contagious, incurable STD. You know that they are chatting up someone new, but they haven’t come clean about having this STD.

 

Do you have an ethical responsibility to tell this new person about said STD? Why or Why Not? What if the STD is AIDs?

 

As in all ethical questions, the answers are not clear or easy. There are pros and cons to each decision. Ultimately, whose responsibility is it? If the deceiver doesn’t come clean, should everyone else just avert their eyes? Is truth or discretion more important?

 

In a society rampant with infidelity (ladies, as an experiment, put up a “missed connections” ad on Craigslist and see just how many married men reply), when does our silence become part of the overall problem?

 

First they came for the communists,

and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.

 

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.

 

Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

 

~Niemoller

 

I don’t have answers to these questions, but I would love to participate in a discussion on the topic. Please comment your thoughts/opinions below. Let’s talk.

[Ninja'sHusband]

You know my spiel on how dangerous I think affairs are. I went into my old account (Ninja's Husband) and dug up some old threads that are relevant.

 

I think I'm in each of them, so you can definitely read more of my past self's thoughts ^^

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/383830-do-i-tell-her-husband-having-affair

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/368237-unbelievable-very-good-friend-told-me-she-cheating-her-husband

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/332368-disclosure

 

Honestly I'm not sure how I would do if I actually came on this situation...but I'd like to think I'd tell given how much harm can come from an affair.

 

Edit: Oh loooks like I'm still logged in hah. I'm ChooseTruth.

[ChooseTruth]

Going over the threads again:

 

OneSparkles intended to tell, we didn't hear about it afterwards though.

ComingInHot got her friend to confess to her BH on the phone

seren told (edit: told when asked)

 

People disagree about the warning thing. Seren gave warning. CIH got her friend to confess. I gave warning before I told the other BS. I think it's humane to do it...but I think the opposition does have a good point, that it gives opportunity for WSs to paint you as a lunatic ahead of time.

Edited September 18, 2013 by ChooseTruth

[janedoe67]

I think it depends on my closeness to the situation. My best friend is cheating on her hubby (or vice versa?). Yep. My relative? Yep. Someone at work whose A is affecting their work/the office/ is with a coworker, etc? yep

 

Some stranger I have to stalk and use spokeo or something on to track down?

 

Consult a therapist for my obsession. That one is none of my business.

[Betterthanthis13]

I think it depends on my closeness to the situation. My best friend is cheating on her hubby (or vice versa?). Yep. My relative? Yep. Someone at work whose A is affecting their work/the office/ is with a coworker, etc? yep

 

Some stranger I have to stalk and use spokeo or something on to track down?

 

Consult a therapist for my obsession. That one is none of my business.

 

I think we've beaten the tell/dont tell topic to death lately in a few threads, i din't really mean to bring it up again, but I'm with you on all your answers to the posed questions.. I just liked the article for some of the phrasing like "non-consensual non-monogamy" I thought that was interesting and straightforward and accurate

[Coolit]

My best friend cheating... I would try to convince her to end it without threatening to tell. But if she continued on I would tell. Not just because her H deserves to know but because I know A are self destructive and I would want to intervene like if she were on drugs or an alcohalic.

 

If she was being cheated on I would gather concrete proof (or pretend I had it) go to her H and tell him either i tell her he does. I'd direct the cheaters to the pinned topic and offer any advice I could. Oh and let dr harley... Er road suggest his books.

 

A stranger? I'm with JD. I'd have to be really obsessively following them in order to get any info on the cheating.

[ChooseTruth]

Maybe a poll should be taken to see how many BS's on this forum would actually go so far as to track down an OW on this forum also, who is a stranger and out them? I'm curious.

That would be enormously difficult or impossible in almost all cases and this place is supposed to be protected.

 

Anyway, after BTT's last post I'm thoroughly confused on what the thread is really about

[Betterthanthis13]

That would be enormously difficult or impossible in almost all cases and this place is supposed to be protected.

 

Anyway, after BTT's last post I'm thoroughly confused on what the thread is really about

 

This thread really has no clear purpose I guess. I was up late last night and one thing led to another and... It just happened. oh that was a terrible joke I am awful

 

So now it can be a free for all for random thoughts on infidelity unless it gets shut down by management. Sorry for the confusion people

[Betterthanthis13]

Maybe a poll should be taken to see how many BS's on this forum would actually go so far as to track down an OW on this forum also, who is a stranger and out them? I'm curious.

 

I don't think anybody would. That sounds psychotic, even to me, and I am strongly in favor of telling

[Betterthanthis13]

I sure hope so! I'd hate to be outed this way!!!

 

I read the article, but I really don't like the analogies used.

 

I imagine you don't like the fact that the author called rape non consensual sex, and used the term non consensual non monogamy? Or was it something else?

[Betterthanthis13]

Well, it's not really the word rape, as you can use rape in different ways, but the author did make it akin to physical rape. I guess you will have people who have differing opinions. I've heard people say infidelity is worse than physical rape, but I just don't agree. Of course I'm also OW.

 

I feel (this is just my opinion, of course) that nothing should be compared to physical rape because I don't think there is a comparison. For some reason, I've noticed that bs's (of course not all, but some) like to use analogies and none of them seem to fit properly. Almost as if someone having an affair will read the analogy and go "Ah HA!!! I get it now", when really, it doesn't help. It just seems to belittle both subjects.

 

I definitely feel uncomfortable making an analogy between rape and infidelity, it starts getting into a subject that I feel I should not be talking about without much more education on the topic and the last thing on earth I want to be is insensitive to rape victims.... I have also heard someone say infidelity was worse than physical rape in their personal experience, and I was also quite surprised to read that.

 

Im definitely guilty of generating analogies though. The reason I do it is to help me sort things out in my head when I don't fully understand something, or when I am not sure if other people understand what I am saying, or if what I am saying makes sense. Sometimes it is easier to gain agreement in an analogy because both people can think "Yes, it is like that" or "No, that is totally wrong" and then talk about why/how it is different in order to gain understanding, without talking about the original issue, with which I might have some sort of cognitive bias going on because there are emotions involved. The intent is not to belittle (for me anyway) and I really wish more OW would jump on the analogy bandwagon sometimes

[Betterthanthis13]

As an OW and been on here years i seriously thought some people here were definitely capable of that.

In fact my old account had an attempted hack.

Anyone been on Yonville?

I outed my best friend's H when he hit on me big time, to my best friend. We are no longer best friends and I NEVER encouraged him. She said, he said he was drunk. lol. I outed my MM to his BS, she already knew. He still sees me. I am all for honesty even if it is not in my interests. I risked my relationship with my friend and I lost. I risked my relationship with my MM and you could argue if I won, but we are still together just on a different level. No regrets but i feel bad now for what HE is doing to HER and they do not sort it out. Nobody wins in that situation.

 

Do we shop for our luck at the same store or something?

 

Good grief... someone tried to break into your account? Why?

[ChooseTruth]

Well, it's not really the word rape, as you can use rape in different ways, but the author did make it akin to physical rape. I guess you will have people who have differing opinions. I've heard people say infidelity is worse than physical rape, but I just don't agree. Of course I'm also OW.

 

I feel (this is just my opinion, of course) that nothing should be compared to physical rape because I don't think there is a comparison. For some reason, I've noticed that bs's (of course not all, but some) like to use analogies and none of them seem to fit properly. Almost as if someone having an affair will read the analogy and go "Ah HA!!! I get it now", when really, it doesn't help. It just seems to belittle both subjects.

 

I've heard rape victims say it.

 

This video covers it pretty well I think:

(skip to about 1:40 or so)

But you are right, it doesn't do much to teach WSs. My ex watched it. No effect. Maybe because watching it was from my initiative, not hers. She wasn't really trying to understand better. She was just giving into demands. Our decision to divorce came just days later.

 

I had a couple phone sessions with Steve Harley, the son who does the intro in the above video. He wanted to make a point, and preferred this be answered with my ex present but she wouldn't participate. He asked me, "If you had to choose between letting your wife have a quiet lunch where nothing but talking happens, either alone with the a) OM or b) man who raped your child....which would you choose?"

I had to have him repeat it to understand, then I said, "That's a hard question!"

 

He told me most BSs say that they'd rather it be b) the man you raped your child. Or like me they couldn't answer. He also said the WS is always shocked and doesn't believe it.

 

Major. Disconnect.

 

 

(wow that video was uploaded on my 13th wedding anniversary. Just a month before she started her affair...)

Edited September 18, 2013 by ChooseTruth

[Zenstudent]

I guess my thing is... how does anyone think a rape victim feels knowing that people equate it to a spouse being a cheater?

Maybe about the same way betrayed and humiliated people feel when their trusted partner and AP think of the betrayal as being nothing...?

[sweet_pea]

The only times I've ever seen someone compare infidelity to rape or physical violence, is by the actual victims of such things because they see it fit to compare the two. Who says that they are wrong? Not me, because to them, that is how they feel and that is completely valid. Now, what one victim might feel about the comparison is completely different from the next. There isn't just one way to feel about it. But that's my .02 on the subject

[SidLyon]

Well, it's not really the word rape, as you can use rape in different ways, but the author did make it akin to physical rape. I guess you will have people who have differing opinions. I've heard people say infidelity is worse than physical rape, but I just don't agree. Of course I'm also OW.

 

I feel (this is just my opinion, of course) that nothing should be compared to physical rape because I don't think there is a comparison. For some reason, I've noticed that bs's (of course not all, but some) like to use analogies and none of them seem to fit properly. Almost as if someone having an affair will read the analogy and go "Ah HA!!! I get it now", when really, it doesn't help. It just seems to belittle both subjects.

 

It can be a form of physical rape as it happens (IMO).

 

In my country one of the elements of the act of rape is that a person has sex with another without the other person's consent. My country also allows for the possibility that a husband can rape a wife, although in earlier times this wasn't accepted by the law.

 

There is currently an ongoing rape trial where the woman claims she thought the man having sex with her was somebody else, so she "apparently" consented. There have also been other cases where rape was held to have occurred when the "victim" believed she was consenting at the time, but it turned out she was laboring under a misapprehension.

 

In the case of a BW she is often having sex with her WH in the belief they are monogamous and that he is who he says he is (ie her faithful husband). In many cases there would be no consent if she knew the true facts, so arguably it's rape if there's no genuine consent.

 

I'm waiting for a case of marital rape, due to lack of consent because the spouse was unfaithful, to hit the courts! Perhaps it will never happen.

[ChooseTruth]

I guess my thing is... how does anyone think a rape victim feels knowing that people equate it to a spouse being a cheater?

I'm getting the feeling you didn't read what I wrote.

 

"I've heard rape victims say it."

 

And if you watch the video I linked. Dr. Harley speaks of many cases where rape victims who have also been cheated on said that the cheating was worse.

 

So how do I think a rape victim feels knowing that rape victims say it's not as bad as having a cheating spouse? Easy, the rape victims who said it will have no problem since they said it themselves... I don't know about the others. Like someone above me said, It's probably not always the case, but Dr. Harely seems to say it's the most common case. The only one where he put a qualifier was when comparing it to the pain of a mother losing a child. Personally I would put the pain of losing a child as being worse...but he said that some women actually don't feel that way. It is kinda like my wife died actually, but not so clean of a loss. She betrayed me and destroyed our relationship. In that sense it is like mourning a death. I have never lost a child, other than my ex having a miscarriage a week after me finding out she was pregnant and unsure of the father.

 

Anyway I ramble. Hopefully you get it that I'm not making this up. I've heard real life rapes victim say infidelity is worse. You have a major infidelity expert who has deal with God knows how many people telling you. But, like we agreed. I could talk all day and it probably will never make any difference. You can't get it until you live it.

[Betterthanthis13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeliMeli

I guess my thing is... how does anyone think a rape victim feels knowing that people equate it to a spouse being a cheater?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenstudent

Maybe about the same way betrayed and humiliated people feel when their trusted partner and AP think of the betrayal as being nothing...?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeliMeli

Have you noticed none of your friends have chimed in. Nowhere near the same. It's like saying someone who stole a tip is the same as someone who robbed the store.

 

 

 

I think it depends on the circumstances of the betrayal and the circumstances of the rape if we are going to compare them both to degrees of stealing.... For example, if you were going to compare a drunken one night stand by a very remorseful husband to "stealing a tip", then a serial cheater who goes on for years and puts his BS at risk for AIDS because he does not use protection would be "robbing the store". Fair enough.

 

An 18 year old boy who has sex with his 16 year old girlfriend who he is in love with, but her dad catches them and has him arrested for statutory rape.... "stealing the tip".... while a brutal rape in a dark alleyway by a serial rapist who has AIDS.... "robbing the store"

 

If you asked the 16 year old rape victim about the BS with the serial cheater husband potentially exposing her to AIDS vs the rape victim of the serial rapist about the BS with the husband who had a ONS, you might get different answers.

 

Why is it that you just belittled another poster the moment you did not agree with something that was said by taunting their lack of "friends" chiming in? Wasn't it you that just had concerns about being belittled? I don't understand.

[Coolit]

I don't think you can say infidelity is worse than rape unless you lived both as stated. But I can see why some would feel that. Now if you were raped by simeone you trusted/loved you would have a lot of the same emotional responses as a BS.

 

I think there are similarities there of course on the emotional side. A lot actually. Loss of control, loss of trust, self hatred, self justification (i know someone who often went out partying by herself and went home with random guys and this one time she met a guy who became aggresive an when she tried to leave he overpowered her, raped her and then ditched her at the hotel... But instead of owning up to her mistakes she continued on with her risky behaviour... But you are never, ever allowed to tell a rape victim they shouldn't have done something or you are being insensitive and laying blame on them.).

 

I do think the child raped question goes too far and is not even relatable. There are things worse than cheating. And harming children is one. I will never be compared to a pedophile. If I were ever to abuse my children my husband would never forgive me that because it is disgusting and disturbing.

 

So yeah, that should not even be on the table.

[Coolit]

Have you noticed none of your friends have chimed in. Nowhere near the same. It's like saying someone who stole a tip is the same as someone who robbed the store.

 

As a former server i would say the tip is worse. The person they stole from relies on those tips and has not tip insurance. The theif won't even get caught or looked for. While if someone robs a store the store has insurance if they are smart and often the theif is caught because the cops get involved.

 

Infedility isn't against the law but rape is. A rapist pays for his crime bringig some justice back. Unremorseful cheaters often never pay.

[Coolit]

My choice would be my husband cheating over one of my children dying. H would say the same.

 

Now between H cheating or dying that is a tougher call. While I would forgive him for cheating but hurt so badly or miss him terribly if he died, he does have a nice life insurance plan...

[Betterthanthis13]

As a former server i would say the tip is worse. The person they stole from relies on those tips and has not tip insurance. The theif won't even get caught or looked for. While if someone robs a store the store has insurance if they are smart and often the theif is caught because the cops get involved.

 

Infedility isn't against the law but rape is. A rapist pays for his crime bringig some justice back. Unremorseful cheaters often never pay.

 

Now that is thinking out of the box. When I used to wait tables the place I worked had a rule that if your table left without paying, you as the server were responsible for the bill. So not only did you lose your tip on a dine and dash, but you had to pay for the meal of the people who stole from you as well. This never happenbed to me, but more than one of my fellow servers over the time I worked there ended up chasing down people into the parking lot, most of the time unsuccessfully, most of the time it was teenagers who never realized how badly they were hurting someone with their stupid nonsense.

[Coolit]

Now that is thinking out of the box. When I used to wait tables the place I worked had a rule that if your table left without paying, you as the server were responsible for the bill. So not only did you lose your tip on a dine and dash, but you had to pay for the meal of the people who stole from you as well. This never happenbed to me, but more than one of my fellow servers over the time I worked there ended up chasing down people into the parking lot, most of the time unsuccessfully, most of the time it was teenagers who never realized how badly they were hurting someone with their stupid nonsense.

 

Where I live we have labour laws against that very thing.

[ChooseTruth]

I don't think you can say infidelity is worse than rape unless you lived both as stated. But I can see why some would feel that. Now if you were raped by simeone you trusted/loved you would have a lot of the same emotional responses as a BS.

 

I think there are similarities there of course on the emotional side. A lot actually. Loss of control, loss of trust, self hatred, self justification (i know someone who often went out partying by herself and went home with random guys and this one time she met a guy who became aggresive an when she tried to leave he overpowered her, raped her and then ditched her at the hotel... But instead of owning up to her mistakes she continued on with her risky behaviour... But you are never, ever allowed to tell a rape victim they shouldn't have done something or you are being insensitive and laying blame on them.).

I do think the child raped question goes too far and is not even relatable. There are things worse than cheating. And harming children is one. I will never be compared to a pedophile. If I were ever to abuse my children my husband would never forgive me that because it is disgusting and disturbing.

 

So yeah, that should not even be on the table.

 

The child rape thing was a different scenario.

 

The question is who would you let your unfaithful wife have the peaceful uneventful lunch with?

 

Thinking about it more, I definitely would prefer the pedophile rapist...because I know she hates him. The OM on the other hand is dangerous. The more they talk, the more they bond. I imagine my marriage being destroyed more and more every second they are together. As he says, most affairs begin with talking anyway.

 

So the point there is not that infidelity is worse than your child getting raped, not at all. That specific story is showing the importance of implementing NC with the AP.

[TiredFamilyGuy]

If you have courage tell direct to the BS by phone email or face to face.

 

If you lack courage then anonymously (note or email).

 

But more important than both of those, is do it now.

 

The BS is being robbed of freedom by deceit. They may know something is wrong but not know what it is. Poor fool. Do not collude in a conspiracy to delude them.