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Positive evidence of gaslighting


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Hello, just an update. My W is forging ahead full steam to getting this job which requires 75%+ travel (Mon-Thu. I'm guessing she'll have to leave Sun afternoon, we both have commitments Sun morning and I work Mon-Fri, so we'll have just Fri eve and Sat together at most, then she's gone again). I have gotten an anti-anx med just today (have not taken it yet, doing okay at the moment, but last Wed/Thu I was unable to work after the DD7's revelation about young Coach Studmuffin talking like they were "getting hooked up"), so IC agreed I needed the meds.

 

About a month ago, my W told me that she not only gave me HJ before M, but did so for both of her previous H's and the BF before that. I told her I felt guilty about it, that I went against what I said I believed in doing so. She said clearly that she did not feel guilty about it, that she did not think it was morally wrong! I told her the pastor who'd been counseling us prior to M would have objected had he known, and she said "Well, I've never lived my life based upon what some pastor thought!"

 

Sat the sermon in church was about teens keeping their purity until M. Last night during supper, DSD16 came right out and asked me what I thought of the sermon. The four of us (DSD14 included but not DD7) had quite a lively discussion about it. My W stated at one point that she had done "some things" before M and always regretted it.

 

Later, after the girls went to bed, I asked W about this statement -- was she just saying it for the girls' benefit, and reminded her that a month ago she'd been very clear that she did NOT feel guilty about it (I made journal notes about that conversation back then, but didn't mention that to her). She did all sorts of mental gymnastics saying that, no, that's not what she said, in fact she told me that she DID feel guilty about it and thought we shouldn't have done it. However, what she doesn't seem to remember is that I asked some very in-depth and explicit questions to make absolutely sure I understood where she was coming from on the issue. I distinctly remember her response because it triggered me back into an obsessive mode, but besides that...I had my journal notes from immediately after the conversation.

 

My W's second answer on that topic clearly differed from the first. I tend to believe the first.

 

Do you all think she's gaslighting me (again, still)? Or is my W just fracking nuts and doesn't know which way is up?

 

I'm still trying to figure out what I'm dealing with, with her. Countdown to confronting on last summer's EA is nearing zero (I may even get there tonight -- we've taken to going on drives without the kids where we can talk (or fight, I guess) without stressing them out...

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I don't know if I would call what your W is doing in what is mentioned here, gaslighting, so much as sloppy lying.

 

Sounds like she doesn't want your kids to grow up and be sexually active right away as teens, so she lied to them about her feelings to make them feel guilty about any feelings they were having.

 

(An aside: I think its great that your kids feel so comfortable having such a conversation with you at dinner. That's awesome.)

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I don't know if I would call what your W is doing in what is mentioned here, gaslighting, so much as sloppy lying.

 

Sounds like she doesn't want your kids to grow up and be sexually active right away as teens, so she lied to them about her feelings to make them feel guilty about any feelings they were having.

 

(An aside: I think its great that your kids feel so comfortable having such a conversation with you at dinner. That's awesome.)

 

Thanks! Actually, I'm glad they are comfortable doing so as well. We must be doing SOMEthing right, anyway.

 

I didn't think what she told the kids was gaslighting. I think when we were alone and I asked why she told them she felt guilty when she'd told me that she DIDn't feel guilty, shd had the opportunity to say "Well, we don't want them to believe like I do" or something, but no -- she DENIED ever having said that she didn't think it was wrong, that it hadn't made her feel guilty...because in that moment I think she realized that she couldn't have it both ways, yet didn't want to own up to it...it would make her a "bad girl".

 

Either that, or she's got a good case of MPD (diagnosed or not).

 

I'm glad I'm journaling stuff again -- the words on the page don't change with shifting moods and circumstances...

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To be honest, it's been weeks since you first brought this up and I'm still trying to wrap my head around your logic that 'because she thinks it's ok to do it before marriage, that means she thinks it's ok to do it while married.' To me, that's like putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 3,724.

 

Maybe it's because I'm not religious, or maybe it's because I separate 'actions that are ok while single' from 'actions that are ok while in a relationship'.

 

But for me, I have no problem with having full-on intercourse before marriage. That does NOT mean that I think it's ok to have intercourse with anyone other than my husband while I'm married.

 

I think that if this issue really and truly bothers you, perhaps you should outright ask your W if she thinks it's ok to give other men hjs while married.

 

In my personal opinion, I can't imagine her as gaslighting you on this particular issue (though there has been plenty to your situation which has sounded suspect to me - just not the hj thing) because I just can't wrap my head around the idea that she could actually think in that manner.

 

It sounds more like the sort of disconnected reasoning I had about certain situations after discovering my husband's EA..

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To be honest, it's been weeks since you first brought this up and I'm still trying to wrap my head around your logic that 'because she thinks it's ok to do it before marriage, that means she thinks it's ok to do it while married.' To me, that's like putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 3,724.

 

Maybe it's because I'm not religious, or maybe it's because I separate 'actions that are ok while single' from 'actions that are ok while in a relationship'.

 

But for me, I have no problem with having full-on intercourse before marriage. That does NOT mean that I think it's ok to have intercourse with anyone other than my husband while I'm married.

 

I think that if this issue really and truly bothers you, perhaps you should outright ask your W if she thinks it's ok to give other men hjs while married.

 

In my personal opinion, I can't imagine her as gaslighting you on this particular issue (though there has been plenty to your situation which has sounded suspect to me - just not the hj thing) because I just can't wrap my head around the idea that she could actually think in that manner.

 

It sounds more like the sort of disconnected reasoning I had about certain situations after discovering my husband's EA..

 

Ann, your point sounds reasonable. My concern has always been that 1) if she doesn't think giving HJs to men to whom she's not married (stated completely without qualifiers, though she had the opportunity) and in fact has done so to every man she's had a close relationship with that I KNOW of (whether she M'd them or not), there is no reason why she would not give a friendly hand to a guy at work with whom she's cultivated a "friendship". Just talking from a philosophical point of view. In fact, the only boundary she has acknowledged is that she would not have full intercourse with a man to whom she was not married, she said "that is ONE line I WILL not cross!"...meaning she'd cross every other one, or that there are no other lines.

 

Yes, I do plan to ask her when I confront about last summer. She went straight to the shower that one day the last week the vendor OM was here last June (and we're approaching that antiversary now) for SOME reason, and I'm guessing it's because she got his spooge all over her body (and maybe some clothing, as she didn't take that off outside the bathroom like she normally does).

 

But the point of my post was that I now have documented evidence that she changes her lifelong position on important issues between two points in time absent any known cause. Since both points can't be true, one of them seems to represent deliberate deception on her part.

 

BTW, I am not judging you or others who have not problem with intercourse before M -- that's between you and them. Since my W and I are professing Christians, we should be living according to that standard, yes? But we didn't (and I own my part in that). I was just surprised to hear her that one night declare boldly that she didn't care to live according to that standard (by putting it on the pastor, rather than the source).

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Gaslighting or not' date=' I think documenting things is the way to go.[/quote']

 

Of course, once when we were fighting I challenged something she was saying based upon what I'd recorded -- she was taken aback by that, said something about "Love keeps no record of wrongs" (from the Bible) and then dismissed it. I think that was the same fight where she used a lot of "I don't remember"'s and "Oh, that's just stupid!" Wayward speak.

 

I'm documenting things so that later I can review it and check for patterns, see the "big picture" at once (instead of obsessing in the meantime). It doesn't look good. I really don't know how long our M will last if she gets this out of town job... :-(

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porkinsjehosaphat

sruben,

 

whatever the situation was like in your marriage before, you are currently married to a woman which requires you to take anti-anxiety medicine even to function.

 

You really need to think about that simple, basic fact. Stop, and think about what that means. Don't try to analyze the "why" of it. Just realize that it is what it is.

 

Anti-anxiety meds treat the symptoms, not the cause.

 

The cause of your anxiety is the person that you are married to.

 

To cure your anxiety, you need to remove the cause of it from your life.

 

It doesn't really matter why this particular thing or person causes your anxiety. I guess in this case it happens to be various infidelity and relationship issues. But that really doesn't matter.

 

You could be married to a faithful wife who is a compulsive gambler or alcoholic, different particular issue, but same result--someone you just can't live with any longer and retain a minimal level of sanity.

 

That sounds like where you are right now.

 

It won't/can't get any better, because if she's taking a job that keeps you separated for most of the time, that shows zero committment on her part to trying to repair the relationship.

 

Meanwhile, you are left with a constant state of anxiety.

 

Remove the cause of the anxiety, that is the only solution IMO.

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Of course, once when we were fighting I challenged something she was saying based upon what I'd recorded -- she was taken aback by that, said something about "Love keeps no record of wrongs" (from the Bible) and then dismissed it. I think that was the same fight where she used a lot of "I don't remember"'s and "Oh, that's just stupid!" Wayward speak.

 

I'm documenting things so that later I can review it and check for patterns, see the "big picture" at once (instead of obsessing in the meantime). It doesn't look good. I really don't know how long our M will last if she gets this out of town job... :-(

 

Just politely let her know that you're documenting things for her, since she's had so much difficulty remembering things accurately lately.

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porkinsjehosaphat
Just politely let her know that you're documenting things for her, since she's had so much difficulty remembering things accurately lately.

 

IMO this would be a pointless waste of time, useless wheel-spinning.

 

The OP's wife is taking a job where she will basically be physically separated from the OP for most of the time. No doubt when she is home on the weekends she will not even spend that with her h, she will say "I worked hard all week, I need to go out and party!!!"

 

The marriage is effectively over, probably has been for some time now.

 

Time for OP to do what he can to cut his losses as best he can. Obsessing over his wife's lying and cheating and gaslighting will just waste his time getting his mind wrapped up in someone else's useless b.s.

 

If he needs evidence or something for a divorce or custody trial, the most efficient/effective thing to do is lay out the money and have a private investigator gather whatever there is to be gathered.

 

No one is going to care about the lies his wife tells him in the bedroom or at the dinner table, except OP. Since he already knows she's gaslighting him there's nothing to document. OP gains nothing by "forcing a confession" from his wife, what's the point? To "win"?

 

OP can't "win" if he's married to a loveless woman who doesn't care about him, all he can do is try to minimize the pain and cut his losses.

 

That requires rationally evaluating the situation, recognizing she's no longer interested in the marriage as a true marriage, lawyering up, and filing for a divorce, trying to make it as amicable as possible while protecting his own interests and those of his children.

 

The fact that she may have lied about having sex before marriage doesn't factor into any of this.

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Just politely let her know that you're documenting things for her, since she's had so much difficulty remembering things accurately lately.

 

I like this! :-) VERY good example of "reverse-babble", I'll have to remember to use it. Thanks!

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porkinsjehosaphat
I like this! :-) VERY good example of "reverse-babble", I'll have to remember to use it. Thanks!

 

What are you trying to accomplish by doing this sort of gamesmanship, at least at this point?

 

She's got you preoccupied with her gaslighting and going around in her verbal circles.

 

Meanwhile, in real life, she's in a relationship with the kid's coach and planning her life without you, by taking a job that keeps her away from home most of the time.

 

She is setting up her exit strategy from the marriage, whether it's with the coach or someone else, doesn't matter.

 

You are immersed in the situation and therefore can't see the forest for the trees.

 

So let me lay it out for you with an analogy:

 

She's the pilot of an F-14 on the launching catapult in full afterburner, military power, giving the conning tower the salute in preparation to be launched off the deck, and you are the clueless deckhand picking up the chewing gum wrappers that she thoughtlessly left on the flight deck, about to be fried by her jet wash.

 

Why are you worried about picking up her chewing gum wrappers when you are about to be decapitated?

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porkins,

 

you're quite right about where I'm at right now (however, I haven't started taking the meds...I picked them up yesterday and read the list of potential side-effects -- scared me straight for the moment! Bizarre personality changes? Like I need that! I realize that probably won't happen, but how would you know? Unless your spouse or family told you so. I wouldn't want to give her ammunition).

 

I am not at the point where I think she doesn't love me. Many WS's still love their BS's, and she does do things to show me that at times. During our last fight, she did start crying, saying that she's done everything she can to show me that she loves me, that she doesn't know what else to do. I thought about that as to whether or not that's true. In a book I read last year, His Needs, Her Needs, Harley states that when one spouse tries to meet the needs of the other, but does it in their own way (and not the way their spouse needs it to be met), frustration is the inevitable result.

 

What I need to feel safe and secure in the M is not these various acts of service or kindness, but I need the truth -- about what happened last summer, as well as generally. My attempts last year to get that truth resulted in hiding, minimizing, gaslighting, fits of rage and some outright lies from her. Now, I am certain that she is probably afraid that I will divorce her if she tells me the truth. I won't, but I very well may if either a) she refuses to give me that truth (which to me would be an indication of exactly what you say -- that she's not committed to the M or to R) or b) I determine that she simply will not stay faithful to me (as I define faithfulness -- which I realize may not match her definition. For instance, if she truly believes that there's nothing wrong with giving a close male friend an HJ or passionate kisses, I definitely differ with that)! I also guarantee you that if I kissed another woman, she'd be at the lawyer's office quicker than I could finish this sentence!).

 

One thing I haven't done is give her the opportunity since this last trigger (Coach studmuffin, whom DD7 thinks Mommy wants to "get hooked up" with). I tend to sit on things longer than I should, ruminating on them. At least I'm not a loose cannon. I try not to respond from emotion, which would cause me to say things which would hurt her and create damage with no good effect. I've also been avoiding conflict for much of the past 4 years because I didn't see it getting us anywhere, but I knew even then that it was a mistake -- not a sustainable practice for a M, for sure! However, I've already started conflicting with her over things that need to be addressed. I started with the budget and her spending, and did not back down. This was good practice, because I need to do the same regarding last summer. That one is such a big bite, though, it's hard to know where to start, what to cover when and what to leave for later.

 

I didn't get to talk with her last night. I had a work-related crisis to attend to and she was busy, anyway. I am thinking I might sacrifice workout tonight to take her for a drive where we can talk away from the kids. I did this for her last Friday, but I deliberately did not initiate conflict because she was strtessed from watching the kids all day, and I wanted to give her a break, let her relax, with the hope that she would feel like joining me on future drives which might not be as relaxing (to say the least)!

 

IC doesn't think the confrontation will be productive, though, even if I do it through a MC. I have higher hopes than that, but if he's right, you're also right and the out of town job will just be the beginning of the final process of separation and D. I really do hope for better, but it depends on her willingness, too.

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porkinsjehosaphat
porkins,

 

you're quite right about where I'm at right now (however, I haven't started taking the meds...I picked them up yesterday and read the list of potential side-effects -- scared me straight for the moment! Bizarre personality changes? Like I need that! I realize that probably won't happen, but how would you know? Unless your spouse or family told you so. I wouldn't want to give her ammunition).

 

 

These meds work by changing your brain chemistry, hopefully to something closer to "normal." What's really changed your "personality" is your wife, causing your brain/hormonal system to be pumping out all kinds of chemicals that we normally only need in great quantities when a lion is trying to eat us in the jungle.

 

The most important thing here, is not preserving your marriage, or your relationship with your wife, whatever is left of it.

 

The MOST important thing is preserving YOU. Your personal integrity; sense of identity; sense of self. You have been dealt not just one knock out blow but a series of continuous knock out blows. The medication may help you deal with the symptoms in the same way that a football player can take a cortisone shot to keep playing in a game even though his knee has been seriously injured. The injury doesn't go away, it's just numbed, and continuing to play will probably make it worse.

 

In an emergency situation, i.e. if you are suicidal or non functional, then yes any port in a storm, take those meds. But it doesn't sound like you are irrational. You are making a choice and have the ability to consider side effects.

 

So consider: will numbing yourself to the pain inflicted by your wife, have the "side effect" of rendering you unable to make the necessary changes in your life? That would be the worst side effect, you would be like the football player continuing to play on the damaged knee simply because of the numbing cortisone shot, but making the injury worse by still playing.

 

If you are so overwrought you can't function at work, then the answer IMO is not some meds to numb that pain. The answer is to remove the source of it.

 

 

 

 

I am not at the point where I think she doesn't love me.

 

It is imperative for you to deal with your situation rationally and logically, not emotionally/subjectively. It doesn't matter what you "think" about her internal feelings towards you, because your tendency will be to believe that she does love you. That's not objective or clear thought process. You are attributing emotions to her that you would wishfully like her to have, on your behalf.

 

You must be objective, look at the facts. If she loved you she wouldn't be taking a job in which she will be away from you most of the time, she wouldn't be having an affair or whatever with the kids' coach, she wouldn't be torturing you this way, she wouldn't be gaslighting/lying to you this way.

 

Ergo: her actions indicate that unfortunately she does NOT love you. Your intellect/ego is trying to overwhelm the clear evidence of her actions provided by your senses, you are denying reality. In order to do this your brain has to generate powerful chemicals which you are experiencing as extreme and even debilitating anxiety. No different than if you deliberately took mind-altering drugs. Your mind is self-altering to deny objective reality (that your wife's actions indicate she does not love you).

 

Does her not loving you threaten you, because it means you are not worthy of love? Quite possibly you are not worthy of her love (not saying that you aren't, it's just a possibility) most likely you are worthy, and these are all her issues. Nonetheless without wondering about "why" she doesn't love you, you still must accept, that she does NOT love you.

 

 

 

Many WS's still love their BS's, and she does do things to show me that at times. During our last fight, she did start crying,

 

...when a woman, esp. a lying manipulator like your wife, turns on the water works during an argument like this, it is almost invariably manipulation. Her crying does not show she loves you, it shows she thinks she can manipulate you by crying.

 

We show our spouses we love them by doing loving things for and with them, such as: not having an affair with the child's coach; not lying and gaslighting; not taking a job away from home; etc. A loving response to your concerns as expressed in an argument would be to try to listen to you and then address your concerns in a fair and rational manner. That does not require crying. Crying at you is not "loving."

 

 

saying that she's done everything she can to show me that she loves me, that she doesn't know what else to do.

 

Well to start with, she might consider not having any more sex with the child's coach. I hope you realize she is in a full blown affair with this guy.

 

 

 

I thought about that as to whether or not that's true. In a book I read last year, His Needs, Her Needs, Harley states that when one spouse tries to meet the needs of the other, but does it in their own way (and not the way their spouse needs it to be met), frustration is the inevitable result.

 

She cannot possibly even be concerned about your "needs" if she is contemplating a job away from home.

 

 

 

What I need to feel safe and secure in the M is not these various acts of service or kindness, but I need the truth -- about what happened last summer, as well as generally.

 

You will never get the truth from this woman, you will only get whatever she thinks she needs to tell you. She is not capable of telling the truth, therefore, all you will get is more lies.

 

 

Do you understand how self-destructive and self-defeating this path is that you are currently on? Married to a liar, married to a cheater, who doesn't really care about you.

 

When she lies to you it hurts you, if you keep inviting her to lie, you get hurt more. That's what's happening. You keep sticking your hand into the flame and asking the flame: "Don't burn me this time!" But you just keep burning yourself worse and worse.

 

I can tell you what the truth is right now. Your wife has had at least one serious affair on you, with the coach, she's emotionally left the marriage, and she fully intends to physically leave the marriage. Right now it's convenient for her to not get divorced quite yet from you, but she fully intends to when the time is right according to her own schedule. She doesn't care about your feelings at all, she is using you. She doesn't really care about her own children for gosh sakes, exposing them to her tawdry affair with the coach??? WTF??? (Typical for a cheater by the way.) She does NOT love you, and has probably not loved you for quite some time, also typical of a walkaway wife.

 

This is the truth. Some details are lacking obv., but it IS the truth in the sense of being objectively what is actually going on with your wife.

 

 

 

 

My attempts last year to get that truth resulted in hiding, minimizing, gaslighting, fits of rage and some outright lies from her.

 

That's all the truth you really need. She's a cheater and she's a liar.

 

 

Now, I am certain that she is probably afraid that I will divorce her if she tells me the truth. I won't, but I very well may if either a) she refuses to give me that truth (which to me would be an indication of exactly what you say -- that she's not committed to the M or to R) or b) I determine that she simply will not stay faithful to me (as I define faithfulness -- which I realize may not match her definition. For instance, if she truly believes that there's nothing wrong with giving a close male friend an HJ or passionate kisses, I definitely differ with that)! I also guarantee you that if I kissed another woman, she'd be at the lawyer's office quicker than I could finish this sentence!).

 

Ruben, your marriage is already "over." Divorce is a legal technicality. I'm talking about the "marital relationship." It is OVER. You need to come to grips with that. It is way past being beyond any saving.

 

One thing I haven't done is give her the opportunity since this last trigger (Coach studmuffin, whom DD7 thinks Mommy wants to "get hooked up" with). I tend to sit on things longer than I should, ruminating on them. At least I'm not a loose cannon. I try not to respond from emotion, which would cause me to say things which would hurt her and create damage with no good effect. I've also been avoiding conflict for much of the past 4 years because I didn't see it getting us anywhere, but I knew even then that it was a mistake -- not a sustainable practice for a M, for sure!

 

I interpret this as meaning that your marriage has had serious problems for at least four years. As I suspected your marriage has been "dead" for quite some time; it would have to be, for your w to show this little respect for you.

 

You are nothing to your wife, not even a bug. You are not even a person to her any longer.

 

 

 

However, I've already started conflicting with her over things that need to be addressed. I started with the budget and her spending, and did not back down. This was good practice, because I need to do the same regarding last summer. That one is such a big bite, though, it's hard to know where to start, what to cover when and what to leave for later.

 

Cut off all her access to funds, accounts, credit cards, etc. If she wants any money from you she has to justify every expenditure. If she earns her own money then she can spend it any way she wants.

 

The sooner you start separating finances and protecting yourself, the better off you will be when she drops the divorce papers in your lap.

 

Once she gets that out of town job you are done, and your marriage is toast. That's her plan, possibly with some fantasy of a new life with the coach; possibly just screwing every man in sight that tickles her fancy.

 

 

 

I didn't get to talk with her last night. I had a work-related crisis to attend to and she was busy, anyway. I am thinking I might sacrifice workout tonight to take her for a drive where we can talk away from the kids. I did this for her last Friday, but I deliberately did not initiate conflict because she was strtessed from watching the kids all day, and I wanted to give her a break, let her relax, with the hope that she would feel like joining me on future drives which might not be as relaxing (to say the least)!

 

You are just wasting your time with this stuff.

 

 

 

IC doesn't think the confrontation will be productive, though, even if I do it through a MC. I have higher hopes than that, but if he's right, you're also right and the out of town job will just be the beginning of the final process of separation and D. I really do hope for better, but it depends on her willingness, too.

 

She does not love you, she hasn't loved you for years. She is cheating on you and will not stop. She is totally selfish and doesn't even care about her own children. In her mind, you haven't been her "husband" for years.

 

As is typical you are the husband and therefore the last to know.l

 

Get your ducks in a row, find yourself a good lawyer, and try to make the divorce as amicable as possible.

 

Every bit of energy you use up with talk of reconciliation is completely wasted and distracting because she obviously has no interest in reconciling with you.

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Taking meds, documenting her words so you can show them back to her...just more lackluster, no-cajones action (or lack of) from you that lets you kid yourself that you are finally 'taking charge' of the situation...all so that you don't have to actually DO anything, like demand she act like a wife.

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porkins,

 

Wow, that was quite an in-depth response. Thank you very much for taking the time to do so, I really appreciate that.

 

All the points you make are valid, given the assumptions. I am not "quite there" where you believe that my W is having a "full-blown affair" with Coach studmuffin. First of all, what exaclty is a "full-blown affair"? Coming home late every night, spending the night away from home, spending the weekends away from home? She isn't doing any of those things. If she's doing anything physical with him, it would be during school/summer camp hours, and I think it would be difficult (but not impossible) to get away alone for any length of time, given that they're supposed to be watching the kids (and the young adults who are also watching the kids). I don't see a LOT of opportunity, though there is almost certainly some.

 

DD7 is, after all, only seven years old and watches a lot of teen TV with her sisters and I have seen that this influences what she thinks and talks about. I don't know if she got the idea about "getting hooked up" from one of those shows, or not (and I don't let her watch those shows when I'm around, but I'm not always around -- work, gym, church). Obviously what she saw was my W being friendly with the coach with whom she'd been working for two months prior. I've observed her references to him diminish from the second or third week on, and then changed from "Coach studmuffin" to "studly" (okay, from using his title/last name to using his first), and then back again when addressing what DD7 said. That seems suspicious to me. I'm not in denial, but I don't have enough to be convinced of the thing with him, yet.

 

The evidence concerning last summer, however, is a different matter. I am 99% convinced that she had at least an EA with the out of town vendor because of her reactions to any question I would ask at that time concerning him or that period of time, plus her extreme grieving on June 29 of last year (a FWW told me that that was one thing she could not hide when she'd been having A's, the extreme grief when it was over) combined with her secrecy and later weak excuses (lies) about why she was grieving.

 

I ALMOST convinced myself to go confront Coach studmuffin on Monday (yesterday). Then I asked myself, what do I reallly have? I'm just going to look like a crazy jealous husband to anyone who is around, which would only help my W since she works there.

 

You may be right that she is only using me -- many WW's like to keep their H's so that they have a stable home life while they carry on their A's. Maybe mine is doing so, too?

 

I'm actually on the fence about the out of town job -- it pays SO WELL, that if she's inclined to leave, she'll do it soon, solving my problem for me (yes, chicken's way out, but...). Here's the other issue -- she's run up our family debt and encumbered my house with it. She knows this. She even was spouting out a list of things we could afford if she gets this job: Car for DD16, payoff of 2nd mortg, helping me pay off my student loans (which she told me this morning she said she'd do). I don't know if she'll stick around long enough for all that, but as far as I'm concerned, if she helps pay off any of that, I'm better off in the long run. Yes, that would be "using her", too, only my intention isn't to have her pay off that stuff and then D her! But if she's leaving at some point, she might as well help fix what she broke. I must be getting hard-hearted to even be thinking like this.

 

I'm actually on the fence about the out of town job -- it pays SO WELL, that if she's inclined to leave, she'll do it soon, solving my problem for me (yes, chicken's way out, but...). Here's the other issue -- she's run up our family debt and encumbered my house with it. She knows this. She even was spouting out a list of things we could afford if she gets this job: Car for DD16, payoff of 2nd mortg, helping me pay off my student loans (which she told me this morning she said she'd do). I don't know if she'll stick around long enough for all that, but as far as I'm concerned, if she helps pay off any of that, I'm better off in the long run. Yes, that would be "using her", too, only my intention isn't to have her pay off that stuff and then D her! But if she's leaving at some point, she might as well help fix what she broke. I must be getting hard-hearted to even be thinking like this.

 

I agree with what you said about her taking the job...in fact, I found it concerning that when she was first telling me about it, she had a sparkle in her eye like she was really looking forward to it (which I also took as looking forward to being away from me). So be it, I guess...

 

Still, another thing I disagree about is whether I should give her one more opportunity to fix the M. She seems either oblivious (or doesn't care) that I am distressed about the way things are. When I bring it up, she acts all surprised. Last summer, when I first confronted her, she said "I thought everything was fine with our M until you started asking a bunch of weird questions!" She clearly had not been paying attention the previous three years of repeated fights about sex and finances that never produced any resolution (because she'd leave the room when she couldn't take any more).

 

Bottom line: I realize that she is an immature person. That's not enough to leave her over (and leaving her equates to leaving DD7, which I'm not willing to do -- I won't let go of her without a court order! And I'll keep fighting even then). But if she's banging (or stroking) other guys while M'd to me, she can not remain M'd to me. I just need to be sure that's what's going on. There is still a tiny shred of doubt. No, it won't take walking in on them as the only thing that will eliminate that, but I need just a little more than what I've got right now.

 

I don't feel today, btw, like I need the meds. I do know, however, that the next time I'm triggered, I may very well need them. This is not a permanent solution, and the Dr Rx them with "no refills, dr auth needed" so I'm sure that's his position, too. But in the short term, I may need them to help me think and act rationally while dealing with the emotional storm that is surely coming...

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Taking meds, documenting her words so you can show them back to her...just more lackluster, no-cajones action (or lack of) from you that lets you kid yourself that you are finally 'taking charge' of the situation...all so that you don't have to actually DO anything, like demand she act like a wife.

 

Well, you may be right. But I haven't started taking the meds, yet, FYI.

 

Documenting is not for her (but I like what Owl said), but more for me -- as a defense against gaslighting. Now that I know for certain that she changes her answers to fit the occasion, I know 1) I'm not crazy, and 2) I don't have to believe what she's telling me, especially when it doesn't seem to fit the facts.

 

Re: "demand" -- how does one adult "demand" anything from another? Sure, there's a reasonable expectation, but if she doesn't want to act like a wife (and maybe that's why she wants to get away), I can't really force her to. I can accept it or not.

 

BTW, I haven't really talked a lot about this, but I have been applying some of the 180 principles here. I'm guessing that maybe that's why she's been so attentive, lately (esp late last week) -- I've been taking care of myself, not been acting needy, not been initiating ILY as often (which has resulted in her initiating it more in the last two weeks than the last 4 years!), working out (hey, if I'm going to be single again at some point, should be in good shape if I decide to start dating again. As a female friend said, it also gives her something to think about). I slowed down a bit this weekend, and she seemed to cool off, so I need to get back to it...

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Well, you may be right. But I haven't started taking the meds, yet, FYI.

 

Documenting is not for her (but I like what Owl said), but more for me -- as a defense against gaslighting. Now that I know for certain that she changes her answers to fit the occasion, I know 1) I'm not crazy, and 2) I don't have to believe what she's telling me, especially when it doesn't seem to fit the facts.

 

Re: "demand" -- how does one adult "demand" anything from another? Sure, there's a reasonable expectation, but if she doesn't want to act like a wife (and maybe that's why she wants to get away), I can't really force her to. I can accept it or not.

 

BTW, I haven't really talked a lot about this, but I have been applying some of the 180 principles here. I'm guessing that maybe that's why she's been so attentive, lately (esp late last week) -- I've been taking care of myself, not been acting needy, not been initiating ILY as often (which has resulted in her initiating it more in the last two weeks than the last 4 years!), working out (hey, if I'm going to be single again at some point, should be in good shape if I decide to start dating again. As a female friend said, it also gives her something to think about). I slowed down a bit this weekend, and she seemed to cool off, so I need to get back to it...

How sick is it that the only way she wants you, is if you don't want her?

 

What does that say about your marriage?

 

The way you demand she change is you say you will not KEEP her if she can't put you ahead of her own needs. But you're not at that point, as you are trying to find any reason you can to justify what she's doing. When everyone else pretty much sees that she has NO interest in making you happy. At least not if it puts her out.

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fooled once
To be honest, it's been weeks since you first brought this up and I'm still trying to wrap my head around your logic that 'because she thinks it's ok to do it before marriage, that means she thinks it's ok to do it while married.' To me, that's like putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 3,724.

 

Maybe it's because I'm not religious, or maybe it's because I separate 'actions that are ok while single' from 'actions that are ok while in a relationship'.

 

But for me, I have no problem with having full-on intercourse before marriage. That does NOT mean that I think it's ok to have intercourse with anyone other than my husband while I'm married.

 

I think that if this issue really and truly bothers you, perhaps you should outright ask your W if she thinks it's ok to give other men hjs while married.

 

In my personal opinion, I can't imagine her as gaslighting you on this particular issue (though there has been plenty to your situation which has sounded suspect to me - just not the hj thing) because I just can't wrap my head around the idea that she could actually think in that manner.

 

It sounds more like the sort of disconnected reasoning I had about certain situations after discovering my husband's EA..

 

I agree with the above. And quite honestly, I have had an incredibly hard time following all your posts.

 

Is the question - is your wife cheating? And are you too scared to ask that because you and she don't agree on what cheating is?:o

 

What are you trying to accomplish by doing this sort of gamesmanship, at least at this point?

 

She's got you preoccupied with her gaslighting and going around in her verbal circles.

 

Meanwhile, in real life, she's in a relationship with the kid's coach and planning her life without you, by taking a job that keeps her away from home most of the time.

 

She is setting up her exit strategy from the marriage, whether it's with the coach or someone else, doesn't matter.

 

You are immersed in the situation and therefore can't see the forest for the trees.

 

So let me lay it out for you with an analogy:

 

She's the pilot of an F-14 on the launching catapult in full afterburner, military power, giving the conning tower the salute in preparation to be launched off the deck, and you are the clueless deckhand picking up the chewing gum wrappers that she thoughtlessly left on the flight deck, about to be fried by her jet wash.

 

Why are you worried about picking up her chewing gum wrappers when you are about to be decapitated?

 

The last sentence ^^^ is exactly what I am wondering.

 

You have said numerous times you are waiting for the moment to confront her. Are you going to take your pad of paper with all your notes written down with you so you can jump her with all her 'lies' at once?

 

I am not getting this.

 

Either poop (by asking her) or get off the pot.

 

You keep talking about her inadequate memory, what she did with who, when she was married and to who, etc., etc.

 

Just ASK her already. She will probably lie.

 

At that time, ask her if she has given anyone a hand job since married.

 

Then, you can either believe her or not.

 

But I think you are getting all twisted up, anxious, nervous, etc with all the notes and jotting things down that the real true reason for all of this is getting lost. This really describes the saying "seeing the forest through the trees" because I think, from what I have tried to decipher from your posts, is you want to know if she has cheated --- period.

 

I think it is very weird to do all this documenting over something from almost a YEAR ago. Strap on the boots and jump in and start getting answers.

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jenifer1972

Well, I would never take a job that took me for most of the week away from my husband. It would be sooo painful to be away from him that long because I love him so much. I would be miserable. That she is eager to do that speaks volumes in my opinion..

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sruben feels that he knows in his heart that, if he says stop it or I'm leaving, she'll say 'fine, let me pack your bags.'

 

So he says nothing concrete. He tiptoes around it all, looking into every nook and cranny, hoping for some miracle cure that will make his wife wake up and want him, without HIM taking a chance that she'll just leave. Because he's more terrified of her leaving than he is of her cheating on him.

 

sruben, are you in therapy yet? To start building your self esteem and believing you deserve better, truly believe it so that you can reach the point where you actually say to her 'I deserve better so if you don't love me more than yourself, you can leave'?

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sruben feels that he knows in his heart that, if he says stop it or I'm leaving, she'll say 'fine, let me pack your bags.'

 

So he says nothing concrete. He tiptoes around it all, looking into every nook and cranny, hoping for some miracle cure that will make his wife wake up and want him, without HIM taking a chance that she'll just leave. Because he's more terrified of her leaving than he is of her cheating on him.

 

Actually, that's not the case. It HAS been the case the last year until a couple of weeks ago. If she takes this job, finds a new life and serves me papers, I'm now ready for that.

 

What am I afraid of? Truly? I am afraid that I might be wrong, that I might be destroying my marriage and my family for something that's not true, regardless of how it looks.

 

Has my W helped me to find the truth? No, she has engaged in concealment, minimizing, misdirection and some outright lies, but has never been open to dealing with this. I agree, that makes it look not too good.

 

sruben, are you in therapy yet?

 

Yes, have you not been following along? I have seen IC three times, now (including yesterday), plus a couple of long phone calls.

 

To start building your self esteem and believing you deserve better, truly believe it so that you can reach the point where you actually say to her 'I deserve better so if you don't love me more than yourself, you can leave'?

 

I do believe I deserve better. But I made a commitment and, as long as I lack proof (not circumstantial evidence) that she is or was having an A, especially if she's had more than one, I don't have a clear conscience about breaking up my family based upon my feelings.

 

My IC and one of my BFF's I've talked to about this are against divorce for any reason, and believe the passage where Jesus is teaching about divorce, He never condones it ("therefore what God has joined together, let no man separate"). Many churches teach and believe that adultery is Biblical grounds for divorce, but Jesus never said that. All He said was that if a man divorces his wife (for any reason other than adultery), he _causes_ her to become an adulteress, which from the Biblical point of view of one man, one woman for life is true. But Jesus followed that up with "let no man separate", and even His disciples got it because Peter said, "If this is the case between a man and a woman, it is better not to marry." Jesus replied, "He who can accept this, should accept this." I couldn't accept it, and I got married. Now I know why Peter said that.

 

IC and I agree that, Biblically speaking (and I am a Christian and believe the Bible to be the Word of God), God hates divorce, is against it, but if we do divorce (which is a sin, but sin is forgivable), He understands. It's not His will, but He forgives us. IC is divorced (and remarried), himself, and put up with his first W's PA's (multiple) for 8 years before they divorced, so he's not merely being legalistic...he has walked the walk.

 

You also asked in a different post about PI. I did hire a PI last fall, but they didn't find anything. Basically, I think that whatever did happen, was over by the time I woke up to it. I found the lingerie "just a shirt" on Sat June 27 of last year, just after the vendor OM left town. Mon June 29 was my W's first day back at work (which she seemed to have been enjoying for the previous month), and she returned deeply distraught over something she didn't want to discuss. She later gave me some really weak excuses for why she was upset, but the reasons didn't match the level of grief she was experiencing (underlings bickering, plus some other managers were being difficult, or something). My guess is that the EA (poss PA, because of the after-work shower the previous week). Although I think there was hope of restarting it because the guy was supposed to come back, I think circumstances prevented that prior to her quitting her job for the "toxic environment" (or she later said to make herself "completely dependent" on me...nice how her answers change!).

 

If she takes the out of town job, I will probably hire an out of town PI a few weeks afterward and see what's up. I may do it more than once. If nothing comes up, maybe nothing will, but let's face it...if she's away from H and family 4 nights a week, what's she going to do? Sit in a hotel room and stare at the walls? For weeks on end? I can't see that.

 

BTW, DSD14 asked me this morning if I thought Mommy was going to take the job if offered. I said it looks to me like she will. She said yeah, she'll probably do it for a little while then quit again without another job lined up, because she'll hate to be away from her family. Maybe so, but yesterday my W was fit to be tied, she was so frustrated with the kids, especially DSD14.

 

Sorry for the rabbit trail. Have I explained my position better? I read all sorts of speculation on here about what I am and am not afraid of, or actually doing, about this situation.

 

Oh, almost forgot -- last night she was all defensive because I'm meeting with a guy for lunch (who is going through a D), she said "Just because HIS W is doing things, doesn't mean I am!" She told me that every time I meet with a D friend, I come back acting like she's doing something behind my back. Um, no, I've actually been in this frame of mind for a year (with a 5-month break because of her emotionally blackmailing me to "let it go"). I told her that what puts me in that frame of mind is things like what SHE told me about DD7 thinking she and Coach studmuffin "getting hooked up". She made light of all that, said that's why she told me because it was weird, that DD7 might have seen her laughing with him and assumed things. I didn't pursue all this (didn't seem to be going anywhere, but blowing a lot of smoke, but she assures me nothing is going on with him, he's a young egotistical kid who thrives on the adoration of the young girls -- even though he's M'd? -- and that if he doesn't get their adoration, he pursues it. Um, okay, I don't think I even need to say it. But she says she doesn't even like him. She said that about vendor OM from last year, too. Even said "Ewwww!" I haven't seen the guy's picture, but I saw his brothers on FB, they didn't look "Ewww!" so I think she protests too much).

 

Sorry for the long post. I'm trying to be transparent here (and besides, this is kind of cathartic). Thanks for reading and thank you again for your thoughtful responses. I do appreciate it.

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How sick is it that the only way she wants you, is if you don't want her?

 

Actually, from all the literature I've read, it's pretty typical. We, as human beings, typically want what we can't have, and get bored with what we do have. That's why A's are so common. Not saying it's healthy or right, just that it simply...is.

 

What does that say about your marriage?

 

The way you demand she change is you say you will not KEEP her if she can't put you ahead of her own needs. But you're not at that point, as you are trying to find any reason you can to justify what she's doing. When everyone else pretty much sees that she has NO interest in making you happy. At least not if it puts her out.

 

I'm not yet convinced that she has no interest in making me happy. Besides, from what I've read, we're all responsible for our own happiness.

 

Needs are another issue -- when two people get M'd, they are agreeing to get certain needs met only in the M and not outside of it. Sex is one of those, emotional intimacy (I believe anyway) is another. I'm not sure she believes the second. That's what I need to find out. I know that she would consider ME getting emotionally intimate with an OW to be infidelity, but I'm not sure she has any boundaries of her own regarding that.

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I agree with the above. And quite honestly, I have had an incredibly hard time following all your posts.

 

Well, that's actually useful. I fully admit that my extreme (and possibly over-) analysis of the situation MAY not be comprised 100% of rational thinking. That's why I'm here, anyway. Please feel free to point out this stuff! Several people have and it's given me a lot to think about.

 

IC also gives me plenty to think about and to do (put into practice), especially regarding loving my W as Christ loves the church and as the Bible teaches us to.

 

Is the question - is your wife cheating?

 

That is part of the question. I'm more interested in whether or not she cheated last summer, though, because I actually have more evidence that SOMEthing happened that she desperately does not want me to know about.

 

Depending on the answer to that, if she did, will she continue to? If so, I intend to file for D, even though BFF and IC are against that. It's not good for my health to live like this (it's worse not knowing, but if she goes out of town, I can see already that I'm really going to be going nuts).

 

And are you too scared to ask that

 

No. In fact, I have asked.

 

because you and she don't agree on what cheating is?

 

I'm guessing that's the case...when I've asked, she has denied having sex with anyone else but me. That wasn't the question that I asked, but that's what she repeatedly answers with. Says, "I don't even like sex, why would I try to get it from someone else?"

 

[F-14 example, which I seem to have missed yesterday]

The last sentence ^^^ is exactly what I am wondering.

 

You have said numerous times you are waiting for the moment to confront her. Are you going to take your pad of paper with all your notes written down with you so you can jump her with all her 'lies' at once?

 

I am not getting this.

 

Either poop (by asking her) or get off the pot.

 

You keep talking about her inadequate memory, what she did with who, when she was married and to who, etc., etc.

 

Just ASK her already. She will probably lie.

 

At that time, ask her if she has given anyone a hand job since married.

 

Then, you can either believe her or not.

 

I fully intend to do all the above. When? I don't know, but it will have to be before she leaves town, if she does. I can't function with the uncertainty hanging over my head.

 

Right now, I'm thinking of addressing this on Fri evening after work and supper. Maybe go on a drive, let her know what's going on with me. She doesn't know that I've seen IC (let alone that he's not focusing on her, but on me and my emotional state and how I need to deal with it. With regard to her, he just says I need to love her as Christ loves the church). She doesn't know about AA meds (which I still haven't taken, I don't feel right now that I need to, but if I get like last Wed/Thu, I'll take them then).

 

But I think you are getting all twisted up, anxious, nervous, etc with all the notes and jotting things down that the real true reason for all of this is getting lost. This really describes the saying "seeing the forest through the trees" because I think, from what I have tried to decipher from your posts, is you want to know if she has cheated --- period.

 

Yes.

 

I think it is very weird to do all this documenting over something from almost a YEAR ago. Strap on the boots and jump in and start getting answers.

 

I tried to deal with it then, ran into a brick wall. Completely closed. She asked me to "let it go" without addressing any of it, so I did...for 5 months until the separate finances thing (esp her comment) triggered me. From what I've read, I'm suffering from post-traumatic stress symptoms and IC agrees.

 

Oh, I keep forgetting to say this: My biggest problem emotionally is that I am suffering a great deal of cognitive dissonance between her repeated denials (when I have asked) and some of the objective facts I've documented. They don't match up. Even her changing her answer about whether or not she thinks giving HJ's is "morally wrong" adds to that dissonance. I thought for awhile that either she was nuts, or I was. Now I'm fairly certain it's not me, at least not with respect to my perception. My obessing about it? Yeah, that's not healthy. I'm working on it. She could help if she'd come clean about last year. So far, she hasn't. I'll try one more time, now that she's been out of the situation, maybe she's less "in the fog" and more willing to address things. We'll see. I'm actually not optimistic about it...

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