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"Cheating goes Mainstream"


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I'm not sure if we're allowed to post links to newspaper articles, but recently both the LA Times and the NY Daily news have had articles on Ashley Madison, which is apparently something like IllicitEncounters, ie an online dating site for people wanting As.

 

Claiming 3.2 Million members (is that a little or a lot? What is the population of the US?), mostly around LA, the founder claims that New Year brings in lots of new members, and that the financial crunch has helped in that some people can't affort to D anymore. There are many more (70:30) men than women members, but they claim that the "active" members are more evenly spread between the sexes. Men are mostly married, and women fall into three groups:

 

 

  • the "suburban housewife" wanting validation of her desirability;
  • the "quintessential mistress" who doesn't want a full-time R; and
  • recently married women going "WTF have I gotten into?"

I found it very interesting that two newspapers, on different coasts (if I understand US geography correctly) run a story on the same agency within a couple of weeks of each other - marked op/ed in the one instance, and money in the other; neither was framed as advertorial - and the stats they quote for infidelity (1 in 4 men, 1 in 5 women) suggest that they're seeing it as a social trend rather than a freak show.

 

Still, I don't know anyone who's ever used a dating agency for an A, and wonder if this does represent some now social phenomenon. Most of the people that I know IRL who've had As have had them more by accident than by design - falling for someone while taken / falling for someone who's taken, rather than consciously hunting for someone to augment their M. Does anyone here have experience (their own, or someone they know) of a WS making use of an agency in this way, or does general experience suggest that this is fairly fringe?

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Good question...and to answer that, I think you'd have to look at the motivations for cheating of the individuals involved.

 

I highly doubt that these agencies would be used by someone looking for a partner or lifemate, or any kind of "emotional" relationship.

 

I could see people (especially men) who are only interested in casual hookups using something along these lines, much as those same MM/MW who use the standard online dating services today...the only difference would be not lying about their marital status in their profile.

 

I'm also a firm believer in "you get what you pay for"...if you go looking for a date on a site that caters specifically to cheaters...that's the kind of person you're going to get. Set your expectations accordingly.

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Still, I don't know anyone who's ever used a dating agency for an A, and wonder if this does represent some now social phenomenon.

There's also NAMBLA (National Man Boy Love Association) for the support of pedophiles. What does the existence of an organization have to do with "mainstream" credibility?

 

Mr. Lucky

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Yeah, especially because the ads are kind of misleading - "TK women joined this company in the last TK, so shouldn't you?" :rolleyes: If you didn't know it was a site for affairs, it wouldn't exactly be obvious.

 

Anyway, OWoman, I don't think those stories have anything to do with something being a trend or not. Affairs are titillating, and that sells papers. And there have been newspaper stories about infidelity since forever and a day. Cheating is exactly as mainstream as it has always been. For better or for worse. ;) Depending on your perspective.

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I highly doubt that these agencies would be used by someone looking for a partner or lifemate, or any kind of "emotional" relationship.

 

I'm not so sure about the "emotional" bit (though one assumes the lifemate box is already checked if they're electing not to leave their M). The first time the IllicitEncounters links popped up (as ads here on LS... :)) I went to the site to have a look. It's free to register, free to browse - but presumably if you want more than that, it costs - and there were all these people - many with clearly recognisable photos, hello? with profiles listing who they were and what they were looking for. I was browsing through profiles in the area I was in at the time, so it was probably not a representative sample, but very few were upfront about looking for sex. Most were looking for "companionship" and someone to make them laugh (the women) or "companionship" and someone to share glass of wine and a walk in the hills (the men). The view I got of most of those people was not that they were a randy bunch looking to get laid (though only one - a woman - said she was NOT in the market for sex) but that they were a sad, lonely bunch of people looking for anyone older than 5 to have a meaningful conversation with (possibly after a thorough rogering). Which, I suppose, is like most dating sites - and why I'd never go near one! :laugh:

 

But I'd also be really interested in their motivation. What makes someone put up a clear, recognisable photograph of themselves available to The Whole Internet while declaring that they're wanting some "discrete" A on the side?? Why not just hit on the neighbour / child's teacher / supermarket cashier?

 

Or is the clue in the 40% "inactive" (mostly male) members, who put up their profile - it's free - and then wait to see if anyone bites? Not actively PURSUING an A (by their reasoning) but checking it out... in case....

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Yeah, especially because the ads are kind of misleading - "TK women joined this company in the last TK, so shouldn't you?" :rolleyes: If you didn't know it was a site for affairs, it wouldn't exactly be obvious.

 

I haven't seen the ads - not being in the US - but the news article suggested that some were so explicit they got pulled (from the SuperBowl? whatever that is?)

 

Anyway, OWoman, I don't think those stories have anything to do with something being a trend or not. Affairs are titillating, and that sells papers. And there have been newspaper stories about infidelity since forever and a day. Cheating is exactly as mainstream as it has always been. For better or for worse. ;) Depending on your perspective.

 

Perhaps it's as prosaic as editors with inches to fill - especially the "money" one; what else to write about beyond the credit crunch, the lay-offs and other recessionary fall-out that might get more than a glazed-eye response. Perhaps it's coincidental - two editors spotting ads and having the same thought. Or perhaps there really is something new - to do with identity and anonymity, that makes a certain type of person actively consider an A (as opposed to reactively, in response to a particular person s/he wants to have an A with) and look to fill the post through advertising for it. I've just never come across anyone who's considered an A in that way (as an event, rather than as a particular person they want to be with) and wondered if that was simply because I've had a sheltered upbringing or because "normal" people don't work that way.

 

Dunno. :confused:

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There's also NAMBLA (National Man Boy Love Association) for the support of pedophiles. What does the existence of an organization have to do with "mainstream" credibility?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

It's a business, not an association - it relies on a market to sustain it. Which means either sufficient members, or sufficient transactions between (perhaps fewer) members. An association is different - two people can write up a constitution and declare themselves an association. But it would take a lot of transactions for two people to sustain an entire business....

 

(And I don't think the sub meant "mainstream" in the sense of credibility; more in the sense of profitability, I'd guess.)

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Does anybody else find it pretty bloody disgusting that there are Ashley Madison ads running on LS?

 

 

Certainly ironic...

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Owoman...honestly...do you really think that most people would post on there saying "I'm only looking for a quick bang in the park on my off Tuesdays"?

 

Their not going to 'say' that...even if that is all that they're looking for.

 

They're going to couch their wording around the "acceptable profile" lines...

 

If they simply say that they're just looking for some quick motel room action, they're going to be afraid that they're going to attract the REALLY scarey people. And they're not going to want to admit that they're that shallow.

 

So, they say "I'm looking for someone I can have a great time with...".

 

It's just like what we talk about here over and over.

 

You can't know the truth about their situation, their marital status, their motivations, etc...

 

They're going to tell you what they think you want to hear, so that they can get what they want from you.

 

That's what would make using one of these sites foolish at best...dangerous at worst, since you truly have no idea who the other person you're setting up the meeting with is...she could just as easily end up being a couple of guys with a gun waiting for you in the motel room, hoping you brought your credit cards to the date.

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You know, I browsed over to the Ashley Madeson one.

And I was immediately struck by all the photos! Like OWoman was saying...WTF are they thinking? I then found myself looking at the photos in my area to see if I recognized anyone!

 

Then I had a peculiar thought, and here comes some of my naivete.

What exactly do you say?

 

"Hi! I'm screen name hotluv and lets shag because you're photo looks hot. I know a great motel over off Main which bills by the hour".

 

And who would pay? The guy? The gal? Do they go dutch?

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Owoman...honestly...do you really think that most people would post on there saying "I'm only looking for a quick bang in the park on my off Tuesdays"?

 

A couple did - albeit not quite so blatantly, but they did make it pretty explicit that what they wanted was more lurve, less talk...

 

Their not going to 'say' that...even if that is all that they're looking for.

 

They're going to couch their wording around the "acceptable profile" lines...

 

If they simply say that they're just looking for some quick motel room action, they're going to be afraid that they're going to attract the REALLY scarey people. And they're not going to want to admit that they're that shallow.

 

So, they say "I'm looking for someone I can have a great time with...".

 

It's just like what we talk about here over and over.

 

You can't know the truth about their situation, their marital status, their motivations, etc...

 

They're going to tell you what they think you want to hear, so that they can get what they want from you.

 

Wanting someone to "have a great time with" is a far cry from wanting "gsoh" (which, I'm told, stands for "good sense of humour", and there I was thinking they were dyslexics expressing surprise!) or wanting to go hiking up in the cold, windy hills, but perhaps it's code. After a mere 6 months among the locals, I'm sure I miss some of the euphemisms.

 

But surely, if it's a site for As, what people there want is an A, right? Why not state that, rather than offering forest rambles or poetry readings?

 

That's what would make using one of these sites foolish at best...dangerous at worst, since you truly have no idea who the other person you're setting up the meeting with is...she could just as easily end up being a couple of guys with a gun waiting for you in the motel room, hoping you brought your credit cards to the date.

 

Owl I share your thoughts about that exactly! I am wayyyy cautious of such things, which makes me a joke among my RL friends who've used internet dating sites in the past (yes, I have some closet saddos among my friends, it's true) but then I'm generally cautious and mistrustful of people and their motives.

 

(How do you date without your credit cards? Pay with monopoly money?) :confused:

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You know, I browsed over to the Ashley Madeson one.

And I was immediately struck by all the photos! Like OWoman was saying...WTF are they thinking? I then found myself looking at the photos in my area to see if I recognized anyone!

 

Then I had a peculiar thought, and here comes some of my naivete.

What exactly do you say?

 

"Hi! I'm screen name hotluv and lets shag because you're photo looks hot. I know a great motel over off Main which bills by the hour".

 

And who would pay? The guy? The gal? Do they go dutch?

 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

Actually one of the profiles stated that she worked part time - and which days, and what hours - and that her job involved a lot of local travelling, so meeting up between clients (she was some kind of social worker) was preferred... which came close to saying "I'm looking for a quicky at the highway motel each Thursday and Tuesday". So I guess the response to that would be, "OK".

 

As for who pays - I've no idea on dating etiquette in general. What if both kind of hang around in the lobby waiting for the other to whip out the plastic? Do they opt instead for one of the parked cars?

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But surely, if it's a site for As, what people there want is an A, right? Why not state that, rather than offering forest rambles or poetry readings?

 

Because most people aren't even honest with themselves...much less others, or complete strangers.

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Because most people aren't even honest with themselves...much less others, or complete strangers.

 

 

Thanks, Owl, for affirming my faith in human nature.

 

I think I'll live among bears, rather. :p

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(And I don't think the sub meant "mainstream" in the sense of credibility; more in the sense of profitability, I'd guess.)

I'd wager that any profitability comes from leveraging its main asset - the database. Those folks can be marketed to - either directly through the site or indirectly through their contact info...

 

Mr. Lucky

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Dexter Morgan
Does anybody else find it pretty bloody disgusting that there are Ashley Madison ads running on LS?

 

yes, I find it disgusting, and it doesn't surprise me at all that LS accepts their sponsorship.

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Yesterday the Guardian published an op / ed piece about why women in their 40s are having the best sex of their lives. After trotting out the standard line (increased self-confidence; "nurturing" hormone levels in decline, "aggressive" hormone levels more dominant) the author speculates that the REAL reason for the great sex is... it's with someone other than the 40-something woman's H. That it's As, not hormones or confidence, delivering the great sex. Apparently the stats pin 45 as the age at which women are most likely to have an A, and 55 as the age for men - echoed by other stats saying that STIs peak in women aged 45-54 and in men aged 55-60.

 

I didn't do any kind of scientific analysis of what I browsed on the IllicitEncounters site, but from what I noticed, the age range of members did largely seem to correlate with what the Guardian article was suggesting, as did the case studies in the LAT and NYDN articles.

 

Which might explain something - if this is the age group most likely to seek out As (or at least to confess that much to researchers who ask), it's also likely to be the age group most likely to use tech "badly" - by which I mean they're more likely to use it than, perhaps, the generation before (who're perhaps more likely to be skeptical about tech and prefer tried and tested means of doing stuff) since it's a tool they're using every day in their working context; but they're also less likely to have grappled with the social, political and "moral" issues surrounding the use of tech than the generation after, who would be more au fait with using social networking apps or belonging to online communities, and being exposed to the range of things that can - and do - go "wrong" in those contexts. For this group, tech is somewhat of a "neutral" tool, and so they don't consider the risks or constraints in quite the same way that someone of a different generation might. So putting clearly recognisable pix of themselves online - linked to a geographical area - isn't considered "risky" because, hey, they're using a pseudonym, right? And because they've shrugged off the likelihood of their potential hook-up being a serial killer with grown-up sobriety, the "smaller" risks are easilly discounted too.

 

(Of course, even a proper study of this would be difficult - there is no way of ascertaining with any degree of certainty how honest these people are bing in their online profiles - not only about their age!)

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Nikki Sahagin

It's sad that people can make a buisness out of something like this. Some people truly will put money ahead of morals. It really does quite bother me that there can be a buisness enabling people to cheat. It sends a shiver down my spine.

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LakesideDream

OWoman, With the dying economy, and the perception that it's a lot worse than it actually is being the dominant topic today, many things are going to change.

 

I lived through one of these things in the middle '70's. I was an adult well employed and was able to watch without participating. I spent a couple of years in an upscale clubs working as a musician. The first thing I noticed was the then new phenom of "housewife hookers". This was a very new thing then. They were out looking to make extra income, to help support their families. Two kids, two cars, Husband at home watching the kids two nights a week while they tried to make a few extra dollars.

 

It's also a time when organized "Swinging" really became popular. I think major stresses especially financial stress in society cause a big upswing in sexually oriented behavior.

 

Keep your eyes open and see for yourself if my idea has merit.

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Actually, your idea isn't far fetched. It's been repeated several times even in our young country's short life so far.

 

Look at the "cigarette girls" back in the depression era.

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LakesideDream
yes, I find it disgusting, and it doesn't surprise me at all that LS accepts their sponsorship.

 

Seriously my advice to all that don't like the ad's, Subscribe and support the site yourself. It's inexpensive, and the ad's dissappear. LS is a great place. It takes money to run it. Being critical is pointless if you do not do your part to support the thing you are being critical of. If everyone with 100 or greater posts subscribed there would be no need for ads at all. Put up or shut up folks.

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Dexter Morgan
Seriously my advice to all that don't like the ad's, Subscribe and support the site yourself. It's inexpensive, and the ad's dissappear. LS is a great place. It takes money to run it.

 

I need money too, but I'm not going to get it by ill-gotten, or unscrupulous means.

 

Having that advertisement is a slap in the face to anyone that has been betrayed.

 

 

Being critical is pointless

 

I agree with this. However does that mean having an opinion is invalid unless you pay someone?

 

 

if you do not do your part to support the thing you are being critical of. If everyone with 100 or greater posts subscribed there would be no need for ads at all. Put up or shut up folks.

 

I wonder, if I pay to use this site, can I REALLY tell things like they are?:rolleyes:

 

regardless, its still no less despicable that a worthless cheating site ad is being accepted here. Kind of makes me think they should not call this LOVEshack.org.

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LakesideDream

Dexter. I know a little about how these things (websites) work. LS does not "accept" ads from any particular source. LS subscribes for lack of a better term to packages of adds from yahoo, or google, or a similar source. LS is paid a tiny remittance for each add that's run. My guess is the series of ads currently being displayed is less objectionalbe than the other packages offered to the management of LS.

 

Many are taking advantage of the free and open nature of this website. Complaining about advertising content which supports it is shortsited. If the ads go, LS dissappears. Is that preferable to you just ignoring the ads you don't want to pay attention to?

 

Again supporting the site by subscription is very affordable. I reccomend it. If you are not able to make the trival contribution LS asks for from subscribers then allow them to support themselves in other ways.

 

BTW, by far the best paying advertisers are Porn. If LS was "in it for the money" you would see porn banners. You don't.

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