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Snooping - why?


Ripples

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I see a lot of posts on this fora giving advice to snoop and all that it entails - key loggers, bugging, even employing PIs. I respect many of the opinions and judgments of the people here who give this advice and because of this, I'd like to know the reasoning behind advising snooping as a course of action.

 

My own take on snooping is that one can never know everything and that knowing something out of context can be even more damaging that knowing about it completely. For instance, taking this post as an example, if I were ManAlive's wife and I snooped at him telling his OW all those things, I'd, of course, be devastated with pretty obvious consequences. However, I wouldn't know what was going on in his head at the time and without that information, would never be able to make an informed choice, a choice that would be healthier for all concerned. Nevermind, that if I knew the full story, I wouldn't be nearly so hurt! But the full story is something I would never know for sure. ManAlive's real reasons for telling the OW those things is something that I would never be able to find out, ever. If I snooped on him, I would have to live with a little bit of knowledge and the pain of that incomplete information, forever. But it wouldn't be accurate! There would be no need for the hurt, the devastation.

 

The other thing is trust, once we've snooped, we can't take it back. We either have to lie to our partners (by ommission) and never tell them we snooped and live with that guilt, or we confess and damage our partners trust in us, hurt our partners, maybe forever, which is avoidable.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is I believe that, sometimes, ignorance is bliss. Because we can never tell when that's the case, I believe it's better to not go seeking 'the truth', at all. If you are worried enough to want to snoop, there are problems already without trying to find more.

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Collecting evidence. And it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

 

I have always wanted to say...you're busted!

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LucreziaBorgia

When there are no red flags, I don't condone snooping. I had someone do that to me once. A guy I was seeing was going through a memento box of mine and going through my old letters and pictures and stuff. So... I wrote a note and put it in the box saying "if you are reading this, (his name) - then you are to pack your sh*t and get out of my house." Within a week he was gone. I gave him absolutely no reason to be suspicious and he snooped anyway. I found out later he would also follow me whereever I went and spy on me wherever I was: even WORK. Outta there. Period.

 

I tell people to snoop ONLY when I see from the post that there are enough red flags to merit it. The cheater has made an informed decision by cheating, and by collecting evidence the betrayed will have enough to make an informed decision of their own. A cheater will often not stop or stop gaslighting a betrayed partner until there is some cold hard evidence on the table - evidence that could only be found through snooping. Nothing chills the affair like exposure, and that collected evidence is part of the exposure process. You may never know why someone cheated through snooping, but you sure as heck can gather enough information to confront them with it and start the ending process (whether it be ending the affair or ending the relationship).

 

In my state, such evidence is also crucial in divorce proceedings as I live in a 'fault' state complete with AOA/CC laws.

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Right, I appreciate those reasons, the divorce thing, especially.

 

However, if someone is having an affair, wouldn't you agree that the affair is a symptom of other problems? Problems that if addressed would enable the affair to cease anyway? If the affair is found out and stops because of exposure, those underlying problems may never be addressed because they are clouded by the damage caused by the knowledge of the infidelity, it could give the BS the moral high ground and a reason (a pretty bloody good one, in my book) to not look at themselves and the relationship as a whole, the focus could be only on the WS and making them do the work.

 

If someone suspects an affair, I believe that the healthiest course of action is to examine the situation leading to the suspected betrayal and address the issues they find. I also believe that it could be helpful to tell one's SO that they suspect an affair, or the potential for an affair, that they realise there are issues and they would like to work on them, with their SO. This could have two results, firstly the WS, if they're having an affair, is going to examine it more closely for it's payoffs and if they are worth continuing the affair for. Secondly, if they think the affair isn't worth ruining their marriage for, they'll appreciate their SO for realising their relationship needs some work and being prepared to do it.

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If someone suspects an affair, I believe that the healthiest course of action is to examine the situation leading to the suspected betrayal

by snooping

and address the issues they find.

by confronting them

 

The healthiest course of action is communication. There is no excuse for betrayal. No buts...nothing.

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by snooping

I believe not.

 

by confronting them
Yes, possibly. Without snooping. Just voicing concerns as I've previously mentioned.

 

The healthiest course of action is communication.

Quite. And I feel that's better done without snooping first.

 

There is no excuse for betrayal. No buts...nothing.

No, I agree. However, I do think there are reasons. By which I don't mean to infer it makes infidelity ok.

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Without snooping. Just voicing concerns as I've previously mentioned.

Denial. "Reverse" guilt.

 

Don't tip them off. The first rule of snooping.

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As LB says, if you have suspicions and there's an opportunity to do a bit of discreet investigation, I think it's best to take that opportunity. I wouldn't have said that a few years ago, but certain experiences can change your views quite drastically on these things. Trying to discuss concerns with a partner when you don't have any evidence to support those concerns isn't easy - however good a communicator you might be in normal circumstances. One can quickly end up looking (or being made to look) foolish, jealous and paranoid when talking about "gut instincts" without presenting any hard facts.

 

My method would be, on finding information, to invite the person to share any secrets that were preying on their mind - and to really try to make it feel as safe as possible for them to do that. If they didn't take the opportunity, and I had very reliable evidence that they'd been cheating, I think I'd just end the relationship without providing an explanation...unless I were married to them, in which case the explanation would be outlined in the divorce writ.

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Lindya, that seems a good middle ground, a very fair approach.

 

I think I understand exactly what you mean about trying to discuss issues and being made to feel paranoid etc. - "You're just insecure" springs to mind!

 

I've suddenly realised I started this thread because I'm regretting snooping, myself. On the one hand my SO probably needed a wakeup call before he would value me and so I have a much better relationship (on some levels) now, but on the other, I wish I had just finished it before digging for dirt and thus avoiding the nagging resentment and distrust that is taking an awful lot of hard work to let go of. Yes, yes, I know I'm screwed up!

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Yes, yes, I know I'm screwed up!

I frequently redefine that definition. But it feels good to be the best at something.

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On the one hand my SO probably needed a wakeup call before he would value me and so I have a much better relationship (on some levels) now, but on the other, I wish I had just finished it before digging for dirt and thus avoiding the nagging resentment and distrust that is taking an awful lot of hard work to let go of. Yes, yes, I know I'm screwed up!

 

Finished...the relationship? Is it your current SO you snooped on, Ripples?

 

I'm not certain there's any method of dealing with suspicions that won't leave a person feeling a bit crap. Let's face it, feeling insecure and jealous just isn't a good place to be...and admitting to a partner that you feel that way requires a level of courage and honesty that won't always rewarded with very much respect.

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Yes, the current. Went through a brief moment of euphoria when he chose me over the other women (how pathetic can I get?). Now I'm no longer in shock or denial or blaming myself, I'm having to deal with all the other stuff that goes along with infidelity.

 

And yes, you're so right about there never being an easy, safe method. Bloody nusiance.

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I've snooped previously and it never bought me any relief or satisfaction. In fact one time it lost me the trust of a partner, and another just stirred up suspicions that were never resolved.

 

They say you'll always find something you don't like. And often it's true.

 

These days I wouldn't bother unless I sincerely believed that my SO (soon to be husband) was cheating on me. If I had got to the point where he would not admit to it, but I was fairly certain I would go to those lengths to gain the proof or disproof that I needed.

 

As I say though, these days I wouldn't bother. Wouldn't bother to look at his phone, or email account, or even just snoop through his pockets. In a completely healthy relationship, the only thing I can imagine this would cause is mistrust and resentment. It's envading his privacy - which he has a right to - for no reaon.

 

Ripples - Are you glad you snooped now? Did you do it with suspicion?

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Yes, like eavesdropping - one will never hear good of oneself!

 

Yes, I did it with suspicion. I was kept at arms length for too long. Too many times it was 'inconvenient' for me to come over. I wasn't treated as I've been treated before by men who weren't cheating on me. I snooped by cracking his MSN account <geek>. I found a contact list of about 20 women on there, two of which contacted me when I was logged on as him.

 

Now, I wish, with all my heart that I had finished with him before it got that far, before I snooped. Now, I feel that I have to hang on to the relationship so the other women won't have 'won'. So I don't have to admit the relationship wasn't going to work anyway. So I don't have to admit that I'm too weak to make it work.

 

If I finish it I'm frightened that noone will know I'm finishing it for good reason. I'm frightened that it's not a good enough reason - we're not married, after all. I'm frightened that his friends and family will think he finished it. I'm frightened that I'll be viewed as weak, disloyal, shallow. And I like being considered that strong, loyal, resiliant, saint-like woman. I'm a mess, a complete and utter mess.

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I agree completely with Lucrezia, particularly on the bit about "gaslighting" the betrayed spouse.

 

A person who has elected to 'solve' their marital problems by bringing a third person into it... isn't likely to stop that behavior on their own. It's become something that they're emotionally and/or sometimes physically dependant on. It's like dealing with a crack-head at that point.

 

The BS is often observing their loved one behaving in a rather strange way, and clueless as to why it's happening. More often than not, without proper diagnosis... they're left scratching their heads, believing that their spouse has just 'all-of-a-sudden' become some kind of a*hole.

 

What's even more pitiful, is the BS who's turning themselves inside out, trying to 'fix' a a problem when they don't know it's TRUE parameters. These are the ones who have been truly "gaslighted". They internalize all the hurt, blaming themselves for a problem that all the while BELONGS to their partner. No matter what the initial marital dysfunction was... it's blown out of all proportion and SEEMS unresolvable, because however hard they try to address it, they're met with resistance that they just can't find a valid reason for.

 

 

....if someone is having an affair, wouldn't you agree that the affair is a symptom of other problems? Problems that if addressed would enable the affair to cease anyway? If the affair is found out and stops because of exposure, those underlying problems may never be addressed because they are clouded by the damage caused by the knowledge of the infidelity, it could give the BS the moral high ground and a reason (a pretty bloody good one, in my book) to not look at themselves and the relationship as a whole, the focus could be only on the WS and making them do the work.

 

I think most often a BS does look at the marital deficits previous to the adultery. It's kind of natural for people to want to know why their partner went outside the marriage. I guess there probably are some folks who just write the cheater off without this kind of introspective analysis... but I would think it would be a fairly rare person who could end a serious relationship without doing the post-mortem.

 

The problem with 'solving the problems that enabled the affair' where the affair itself is kept secret is that the WS doesn't have any impetus to do so. If the affair is on-going, s/he's got a big ole' band-aid on those problems. If the affair has ended without discovery, s/he's either either too wracked with guilt to bring the problems to the table in a forceful manner, or has learned a new 'coping skill' for future use.

 

And oftentimes... the BS doesn't take the problem seriously enough anyway, until they can SEE the actual cost of not solving it.

 

Sure... it's painful for both parties, and there's a HUGE risk of the relationship ending. But for the one's who manage to reconcile completely and successfully, it's totally worth it.

 

I do believe that there are ALOT of folks who snoop, just because they're nosey. I can't agree with that at all.

 

There are also some who just won't recognize that their S/O has a problem with them. It's easier to believe s/he MUST be cheating, rather than to address the deficits that they, themselves, bring to the relationship. So, rather than look to themselves, they assume it MUST be someone else.

 

There are even a few folks who have a fairly serious mental condition called Pathological Jealousy or Delusional Jealousy. Those folks are tortured by 'imagined' cheating, and will continue to snoop...even when there's absolutely nothing to find.

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I think I'd still rather know the truth, and have a shot at living a (more) real life.

 

But I don't give a sh*t about what anybody else thinks. Sadly, I believe the feeling is mutual.

 

One could add that the people in your life that really matter will always be on your side. Okay, I'll add it.

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Awwww Ripples! *Hugs*

 

They won't have won if you let him go. You will have. You'll have got rid of a cheating liar. ;)

 

What's the point of staying if that's how you feel. It shouldn't matter what other people might think. You'll know inside why you did it. You'll know that you had good reason to do it. And how could you been seen as weak and shallow for walking away from someone who didn't value you enough to stay true to you?! Surely that makes you strong?

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But for the one's who manage to reconcile completely and successfully, it's totally worth it.

I guess it can be worth it for much less than "as good as new."

 

But then you would never know what might have happened to you, had you not tried to work with inferior materials. Of course there is no guarantee that there's anything better out there to work with. Therein lies the risk.

 

An elephant never forgets, even when sweeping things under the carpet.

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Awwww Ripples! *Hugs*

 

They won't have won if you let him go. You will have. You'll have got rid of a cheating liar. ;)

 

What's the point of staying if that's how you feel. It shouldn't matter what other people might think. You'll know inside why you did it. You'll know that you had good reason to do it. And how could you been seen as weak and shallow for walking away from someone who didn't value you enough to stay true to you?! Surely that makes you strong?

 

Ah LK, thank you.

 

I 'know' what you're saying is absolutely right. I need to work on my thoughts to get my feelings in some sort of order about this. Thank <deity_of_your_choice> for therapy. :o

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Yes, like eavesdropping - one will never hear good of oneself!

 

I agree with you and Little Kitty on that. Sometimes you find out things that are hard to know... and not even necessarily true.

 

 

 

Yes, I did it with suspicion. I was kept at arms length for too long. Too many times it was 'inconvenient' for me to come over. I wasn't treated as I've been treated before by men who weren't cheating on me. I snooped by cracking his MSN account <geek>. I found a contact list of about 20 women on there, two of which contacted me when I was logged on as him.

 

Now, I wish, with all my heart that I had finished with him before it got that far, before I snooped. Now, I feel that I have to hang on to the relationship so the other women won't have 'won'. So I don't have to admit the relationship wasn't going to work anyway. So I don't have to admit that I'm too weak to make it work.

 

If I finish it I'm frightened that noone will know I'm finishing it for good reason. I'm frightened that it's not a good enough reason - we're not married, after all. I'm frightened that his friends and family will think he finished it. I'm frightened that I'll be viewed as weak, disloyal, shallow. And I like being considered that strong, loyal, resiliant, saint-like woman. I'm a mess, a complete and utter mess.

 

You're not a mess. You've just arrived at the MESSY part of the relationship. ;)

 

Yeah... you snooped. But would you rather find out NOW that he's investing emotional resources on these other women? Or would you rather find out after YOU have invested 20 years and three kids?

 

Believe me, once you're that far down the pike you are sooooo disappointed in yourself for not seeing the truth. Before my hubby and I resolved our differences... I felt that moment, the moment where you honestly believe that you've wasted all the good years of your life, and you feel like such an IDIOT for having done it. :(

 

Right now, you have the opportunity to solve the problems together, or put this guy on the road. That's a pretty good place to be, all things considered. :)

 

You've hit the messy part, but you know... I think most every relationship will eventually have these rocky spots, where we have to reevaluate our knowledge of the other person and then decide if we still want to be with them.

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It seems that it must be hard seeing someone who is only four years into a relationship being broken up about it when you've been through far worse. If you do feel that way, I can appreciate why.

 

I feel that you have actually underlined one of the things that also worries me, that my feelings and thoughts are invalid because I am not married to the cheater, because we have only been together for four years. Just as my SO made my feelings invalid when he was cheating, just as now he sometimes says I need to 'get over it', I need to 'move on'.

 

It was a mistake for me to post this thread and I'm very sorry that I did. However, thank you again for helping me see that my snooping wasn't all bad. :)

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I think most often a BS does look at the marital deficits previous to the adultery. It's kind of natural for people to want to know why their partner went outside the marriage. I guess there probably are some folks who just write the cheater off without this kind of introspective analysis... but I would think it would be a fairly rare person who could end a serious relationship without doing the post-mortem.

 

I think it very much depends on a person's previous experiences. For many people (and I'm one of them) one such post-mortem is enough for a lifetime. These talks don't always bring enlightenment or closure; sometimes they just create additional unnecessary baggage - particularly if the cheater's main priority is to protect their self image rather than apply honesty in an attempt to develop greater insight.

 

If I were to have any kind of break-up/try-to-work-things-out discussion with a partner about something like that, I'd only do so in the presence of a trained counsellor. I just wouldn't trust someone who'd lied to and cheated on me to conduct themselves honourably when it came to discussing the reasons for their behaviour....and to be honest, neither would I trust myself not to adopt the approach (in questioning them about the cheating) with all the non-blaming tact and objectivity of the prosecutor in a murder trial.

 

Now, I wish, with all my heart that I had finished with him before it got that far, before I snooped. Now, I feel that I have to hang on to the relationship so the other women won't have 'won'. So I don't have to admit the relationship wasn't going to work anyway. So I don't have to admit that I'm too weak to make it work.

 

Ripples, I'm so sorry you're going through all this :( Why would it be weak to decide not put any further effort into this relationship? Where does that view stem from?

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It seems that it must be hard seeing someone who is only four years into a relationship being broken up about it when you've been through far worse. If you do feel that way, I can appreciate why.

 

Not at all. I don't think it matters in terms of feelings if your relationship is 4-years old or 40-years old. Hurting is still hurting. :(

 

But what you DO have is a fabulous opportunity to guage this guy BEFORE you've fully invested your future with him. More often than not, married and 'long-term-relationship' folks have ALREADY invested by the time they've taken the full measure of their partner. They end up finding some 'not-so-pleasant' surprises later on down the pike. You're ahead of the game in uncovering some deficits.

 

I feel that you have actually underlined one of the things that also worries me, that my feelings and thoughts are invalid because I am not married to the cheater, because we have only been together for four years. Just as my SO made my feelings invalid when he was cheating, just as now he sometimes says I need to 'get over it', I need to 'move on'.

 

Your thoughts and feelings aren't any less valid than anyone else's. Where do you get that? :confused:

 

There are PLENTY of folks who elect never to marry.. and yet are just as fully invested as those who do. I don't think the fact that you two aren't married should minimize your feelings.

 

'Yes'... if marriage is eventually what you want, the courtship phase is a great time to iron out personality differences, differences in expectations, and deficits in the relationship. But 'no', your feelings aren't any less valid when they get hurt as anybody else's would be.

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Not at all. I don't think it matters in terms of feelings if your relationship is 4-years old or 40-years old. Hurting is still hurting. :(

 

But what you DO have is a fabulous opportunity to guage this guy BEFORE you've fully invested your future with him. More often than not, married and 'long-term-relationship' folks have ALREADY invested by the time they've taken the full measure of their partner. They end up finding some 'not-so-pleasant' surprises later on down the pike. You're ahead of the game in uncovering some deficits.

 

 

 

Your thoughts and feelings aren't any less valid than anyone else's. Where do you get that? :confused:

 

There are PLENTY of folks who elect never to marry.. and yet are just as fully invested as those who do. I don't think the fact that you two aren't married should minimize your feelings.

 

'Yes'... if marriage is eventually what you want, the courtship phase is a great time to iron out personality differences, differences in expectations, and deficits in the relationship. But 'no', your feelings aren't any less valid when they get hurt as anybody else's would be.

 

Ah christ, I'm sorry LJ, I guess it's my own self-berating going on. This subject is probably too raw for me to be able to discuss it without taking things the wrong way. I'm not in a place where I can be objective enough to not project my own issues onto other people. I'm sorry.

 

Your posts have always helped me see things differently, I really value your wisdom and the way you're able to express it. Thank you, very much :)

 

I love what you say that I'm in a place now to iron out the deficiencies before serious commitment. That's a great thought. It gives me back some control.

 

...and to be honest, neither would I trust myself not to adopt the approach (in questioning them about the cheating) with all the non-blaming tact and objectivity of the prosecutor in a murder trial.

That's bloody funny :D

 

Ripples, I'm so sorry you're going through all this :( Why would it be weak to decide not put any further effort into this relationship? Where does that view stem from?

 

Oh Lindya, thank you.

 

Crikey, I don't know. Could it be my parents? Could it the opposite and that I actually think I'm too weak to be single? Could it be I'm scared of thinking 'what if?'.

 

**** **** ****ity ****.

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