Shadows of her former love

[BMI03]

I feel myself hardening. I am not there yet, but I have been here before. I know I am not there yet because I am hurting. If I was cold and hardened, I wouldn’t hurt.

 

She can’t let go of him. He is engrained deep into her heart. She has given it to him a long time ago, and she has not been able to rid herself of him. She has wanted to. God knows she does, and I believe it. He has hurt her and she knows it. She knows he has let her down, they had let each other down, and that they were no good for each other. She is smart enough to see it logically for what it is…she can say the words and look in control. But she isn’t. And she doesn’t know what it means to actually hate him for what he did to her. She loves him none the less. She misses him. Tears come to her eyes when she talks about him if I ask a question; what he meant to her. She lies and says the tears are because she wishes I could see her love for me and he was of no concern to me. But I don’t think she will do the heavy lifting to fully let him go. She doesn’t see the scale of betrayal I have felt from her, over him. If she did, I wouldn’t be here with these feelings.

 

I’m a good distraction. A solid Plan B. I’ll never hold her heart the way he did, or does. I am enough to let her feel loved. I am a good partner, and someone she can spend the rest of her life with, truly. She means it when she says she loves me. And she means it when she tells me it’s me she wants to be with for life. I don’t doubt that. And we have a wonderful time, with no thoughts of him often. But I will never be him. And I will never free of her inability to let him go completely. He will tower over our relationship. While we have children; grow old; have grandkids; retire. I fear that his memory will only get stronger as the bad memories fade and the nostalgic memories grow. I can never fully trust her to be honest with me about him.

 

So I harden. I harden my heart so that it doesn’t hurt so much. I thicken my heart’s outer crust so that it doesn’t pain me so much when she lets me down. I harden my heart and try to turn my feelings off, or at least down low, without even knowing it, so that I can enjoy life without missing my own expectations of being all she ever wanted. If I can love her less, I hurt less. That’s what my heart debates with my mind which wants to love her how I know I can, and do.

 

I’ve been here before. What do I do about it now?

 

 

 

Sorry, feeling some things today and needed a place to put it out into the world to vent and figure out how I am feeling.

Edited November 29, 2017 by BMI03

[mercy]

I've never heard of a 'solid plan B'. But reading your post I know it doesn't feel good.

 

Why can't you let go and become a #1 to someone?

[BMI03]

I've never heard of a 'solid plan B'. But reading your post I know it doesn't feel good.

 

Why can't you let go and become a #1 to someone?

 

Thanks. It was a bit sarcastic in that ‘Plan B’ comment. It’s how I feel sometimes. I don’t know whether I am, or if I just make too much to do about nothing. Sometimes I feel like a plan B, and other times I think I am silly for feeling that way and getting in my own way of something that’s good. Today is one of those days where I am just not sure.

[BarbedFenceRider]

Plan B is exactly what was needed to be said. Especially if she isn't willing to do the heavy lifting like you said. I say, you take this post and write it in a letter. Give it to her. She needs to know where you are, and how things REALLY are. Don't harden, get stronger. Your love, your sacrifice is only good to those who can truly appreciate that. You can forgive her mistakes, but betrayal is a mark that doesn't wash away easily. Ester Perel speaks of marriages being destroyed by infidelity. No way to fix that. But it is up to the couple if they want to rebuild a new marriage. A new contract.. But unfortunately, it sounds like there will never be that special place for your wife. Just a room mate with a checkered past. So sorry.

[Be_Strong]

I’m sure you realize that the path you’re currently on does not have a happy conclusion. In fact, as time goes on, the problem is only going to get worse not better. The thing about memories of ex lovers is that they usually get rosier as time goes on. As the inevitable cooling of passions occurs in your relationship and new issues and problems arise, she will compare her current lackluster state of affairs with those blissful memories she has tucked away, which will then increase the problems in the current relationship in a vicious cycle.

 

But, the ex lover is not really the problem in your relationship. If he didn’t exist, you’d simply be compared to some theoretical ideal man in her mind that you wouldn’t live up to.

[BMI03]

Plan B is exactly what was needed to be said. Especially if she isn't willing to do the heavy lifting like you said. I say, you take this post and write it in a letter. Give it to her. She needs to know where you are, and how things REALLY are. Don't harden, get stronger. Your love, your sacrifice is only good to those who can truly appreciate that. You can forgive her mistakes, but betrayal is a mark that doesn't wash away easily. Ester Perel speaks of marriages being destroyed by infidelity. No way to fix that. But it is up to the couple if they want to rebuild a new marriage. A new contract.. But unfortunately, it sounds like there will never be that special place for your wife. Just a room mate with a checkered past. So sorry.

 

I was thinking along those same lines after I wrote that first post out…placing it here in a thread was more or less my draft run of it to see how it made me feel. Maybe I will show her outright. She always pushes me the share how I feel, and has pleaded with me to always let her know when something she is doing is getting in the way of us. She wants us to work. And I believe that. I am not sure exactly what it is I want though...for her to feel differently? Her dishonestly with me doesn’t fit the common model. She didn’t physically cheat, but she kept things from me early on in our relationship about the state of emotional disconnect she had from her ex. By then we were deep in and I was hooked. But the level of emotional connection she had with him then was too much. She doesn't chose him. She doesn't interact with him (that I know). It’s been good since, but just had a small setback, triggering feelings. So the problem is in whether I can trust how she says she feels now or not. Days like today, though she has done nothing wrong today, I think he's in her soul, deep when I see a reference to him hurt her.

 

I’m sure you realize that the path you’re currently on does not have a happy conclusion. In fact, as time goes on, the problem is only going to get worse not better. The thing about memories of ex lovers is that they usually get rosier as time goes on. As the inevitable cooling of passions occurs in your relationship and new issues and problems arise, she will compare her current lackluster state of affairs with those blissful memories she has tucked away, which will then increase the problems in the current relationship in a vicious cycle.

 

But, the ex lover is not really the problem in your relationship. If he didn’t exist, you’d simply be compared to some theoretical ideal man in her mind that you wouldn’t live up to.

 

I agree with the first portion of your post, thank you. I agree it needs to be talked about. Like I said, I still go back and forth with whether this is a current problem or a past issue I should overlook and move beyond. It is exactly what I am fearful of; the picture she has of him getting better and better. Her ex did some horrible things to her, but I know she really loved him. She thought she would be with him forever. So that fear of her memories of him getting better and better over time is a real worry of mine.

 

I don’t think I agree with the latter half of your post though. Were I feeling constantly compared to him, yes, I agree. But I don’t think I have ever felt compared openly. All I feel from her directly is love and compassion, and a sincere desire to work on the relationship. I think it’s more about her not understanding how much I despise this man, and an underestimation as to how a careless act can drive a wedge between us. I don’t believe this is as simple as her being someone who likes to compare and contrast. I wish it were that easy. Instead I think she was just very in love with this man, and will always have a hard time admitting in her heart that he is out of her life. She has decided he is not where she wants to be, but I think her heart will take a long time to agree.

 

I haven't really explained her how she broke my trust that well so perhaps I should clarify her. Will write it out less 'feelings like' soon.

 

Thanks for the comments.

[BMI03]

Call my wife Mary for anonymity. We will call her ex Tom. This is the story as I know it, with obviously some second hand information.

 

Mary is from Latin America. She moved to North America about a decade ago, and in classes to learn English she met Tom who had just moved as well from the middle east. Mary was 26, and Tom was 21, though he lied about his age and said he was 24. She started seeing one another, and within the first couple of months they had slept together. At 26, this was Mary’s first time. She wasn’t expecting it, but after it happened she felt that she was supposed to be with him and marry him (catholic upbringing, as was I but I would call my upbringing a loose or undisciplined version). So started a 6-7 year relationship. Within a few months they got pregnant and had an abortion. Before their relationship was over, there would be two more such incidents.

 

Their relationship was passionate, but rocky. Like two horney teenagers, having sex up to seven times per day. But also, twice without warning he picked up and left, back for the middle east with no indication upon when or if he would return. She, unsure of her future with him, resorted to finding new boyfriends without his knowing in the meantime. When he returned, she promptly dropped her new boyfriend to be with him. She felt she was his.

 

Over those six years, there were three incidents of physical abuse. In each occasion he beat her to a point of needing a hospital visit. The first two times for seemingly disrespecting him in front of his friends at their home, asking them to quiet down while she was studying. The third time, for finding texts between one of those part time boyfriends while he was away upon his return, shortly before they broke up. She has a small eye problem from the last beating. She threatened to call the cops on him. He said he felt he was able to do that so long as they were in their own home. No charges were ever filed.

 

After that last fight, she left for Latin America, and he left for the middle east. She told me that that was enough and they broke up because they knew they were not good together. What I have saw (details on how later) in chats is more like she begged him to come back and not give up on them. Pleaded for forgiveness. He told her she ruined it, and was unforgiving for what he did. She takes panic attacks for the first time, and near melt down over things. He came back to get his stuff, and moved back to the middle east, then Europe. A year went by. She went on a bit of a freedom spree, and from what I understand, slept with six new guys, and dated many more. I don’t say that as a judgment. Just sharing because I think it tells the story of her frame of mind. She could have been enjoying freedom and having fun. I think she was hurting. Over that year she still talked to him constantly. She was used to playing the girlfriend role (ie ‘remember to tell your brother happy birthday’, ‘don’t wear the brown shoes with the black suit’, ‘remember your application is due next week’, etc.), and he was used to having her there.

 

Then we met. Both early to mid 30s.

 

We liked each other right away, and started seeing each other regularly. I find out later she told her best friend that night that she met the man she wants to marry. I want this to be balanced so it tried so be an advocate to how she felt too, based on my shortcomings. I was going through a divorce. Tough divorcing, my ex was still living with me. Financial reasons, combined with co-parenting, and just not intending to meet anyone new that would sweep us away, it just didn’t seem like an issue until I met someone else. Our relationship had long since ended, agreed to and admittingly on both ends, but we had no problems with one another and were both busy professions, so as bad as it sounds, it just didn’t seem to matter and avoided what felt like a hassle we didn’t have time for. I didn’t tell Mary this before our first date. I wasn’t expecting to meet someone I could fall in love with. I did tell her during a call the following week, and she was understanding and accepting. After a couple more months together I told her that perhaps we should end it until I am done the divorce. But she said she would stay with me while it happened. She did however want to see milestones set out. And wanted me to show her the communications between me and my ex. Assurance that it was happening. I agreed, and so we kept going. She tells me later that thinking of me leaving gave her a panic attack.

 

During those early few months we spent a lot of time together. Almost inseparable. Had a great time and spent hours and hours talking. It was great. Like our minds worked the same. I knew her ex texted her now and then. I knew she was good friends with other exs as well. All out of country, and so it didn’t feel threatening. I have some exs on my Facebook, so no big deal. About 5 months in she had to travel for a couple of months. I made trips to see her over that time. Things were going well, until one day she called me to tell me that Tom had called her and they had a long talk. He knew she was seeing me, and I expect was starting to see it was getting serious. He wanted to come visit her while she was travelling. She told him no. She told him that their chance had ended. She knew they were no good with one another no matter how much they had cared for each other. They were not good people together. She chose seeing things through with me. She told me she loved our relationship and could see a future with me. She said it was a good talk with him to bring closure to some of the things she needed to say to him now that she had been out of the relationship long enough for the emotions to go away and really see how badly he treated her and how he physically harmed her. I agreed it was a good thing to have felt you said your part in. But I wasn’t all comfortable. I asked her if I could see the messages between them prior to the call. I said that like her ability to help me with my wording in emails with my ex (which she was really good at sharing insight on from a woman’s perspective), I could help her share how he would interpret things. She declined and said she thought she should handle things with him on her own because of the sensitive nature of the physical harm. I knew it was a bull**** answer, but I accepted it.

 

Life went on and we grew closer. Got to know each other better and fell in love. I was out of the house with ex now and so Mary was with me a lot more, not living together, but staying often. We are falling more in love, and spending every minute together we can.

 

Fast forward another four months, and I need to borrow her phone for a work call. She sort of panics, but hands it over. Later I call her out for deleting her whatsapp app before handing it over. She admitted it, and tells me that she was scared. She had grown sensitive to misinterpretations by her ex, of things he would see on the phone, which led to a good beating before, that she was just scared, and shouldn’t have done it. I am frustrated, because I don’t know what’s on those chats. She insists it was just general chit chat with Tom, typically started by him, and to which she would answer and be pleasant with him. She shows me texts from him where he tells her that I probably wouldn’t like that she is talking to him so maybe they shouldn’t. She tells him that I know they talk so it’s fine. She shows me texts where he feels bad and lost, and is glad she’s doing good. She shows me texts where she tells him that they had their moment but they were not good together. I try to be understanding. I didn’t want to be controlling.

 

I go back to enjoying out time together. No one has ever treated me like this before. She loves me. She does nice things for me daily, and I love doing things for her. She tells me deep dark fears and experiences and I share too. We discover things together and accomplish challenges together. We are making a great team and can see how each other thinks. We know each other’s minds. Our thoughts trigger together on the same stimuli and so we regularly look at each other and know our thoughts without words. We are getting super close.

 

A month later, after a night out, she asks me to check something on her old phone for her. I do, and in the process I stumble upon some information that shakes me up. There is indication that she slept with someone else three days after meeting me, and potentially another guy a couple of weeks later. Now, we never said we were exclusive after date one, and of course I was living with my ex. So that needed to be considered. But after several months in, she did tell me she was with no one else after me, and so I am hurt and further irritated and suspicious. I ask her. She denies and counters the information with unlikely but possible excuses. Later that month, she has too much to drink and I look through the new phone. I find that she had dated several more men in the three months following us meeting. Again, we didn’t claim exclusivity at the time but she retroactively claims it. More importantly, I saw messages between her and her ex. Not a lot, but a couple of reach outs from her. Short answers from him. She told him she missed his skin, and saw a man’s rear end at work that reminded her of him. He laughs. Other texts is of him sending her songs (Adele’s ‘Hello’, Justin Bieber’s ‘Sorry’), and photos of him and her. There are other professional stresses for her at the time, so I sit on this information. I try to be a bigger person, and let it be.

 

One month later, she is out with friends, and she is texting me, telling me that he is texting her a song. She hangs up with me, telling me he is calling her and she should answer. An hour later she calls me and tells me that they had a long phone conversation, and put some things to rest. That there will be no more inappropriate texting. She told me she recorded the conversations so I could hear them if I wanted. I hold off because I am out of town, but will ask to later.

 

We go back to enjoying each other’s time. I am very in love. She can’t get enough time with me.

 

A year in now, she is coming to meet my family. She tells me he texted her and I ask to see. I see a short chat between them talking about her coming to meet my family. Seems fine. After the trip he is texting again. I finally break. I tell her what I had saw her say to him about missing his skin. I tell her I am still lost at what she said in whatsapp to him which I will never see. I tell her it shattered my trust in her. I tell her I can’t hear a song on the radio he sent her without shaking, and his sending these were emotional fish hooks to undermine her relationship, and her not shutting it down was a direct insult to our relationship. I tell her that her actions show him that I am meaningless in her life and that she has no respect for me. She cries and is apologetic. She asks me what she can do to make it better. She asks if I could ever trust her again, and if not maybe we should end it. I don’t know if she’s bluffing or not. She tells me not to focus on these small moments and slips, but to look at the other 99% of the time when she (truthfully so) makes me feel like the most loved man on earth. Her excuse: she doesn’t have one. In her mind she was sharing a thought she had when she said she missed his skin. She never even registered it as something ‘against’ me. She felt a moment of nostalgia and acted how she felt. Growing up she was made to feel guilty for speaking her mind, so she tries not to mute herself…this was her logic looking back, not as justification, but as explanation. We talk all night and decide to stay together. She said she wants help with this. She tells me that when he texts she will just be polite. Short answers. Let it fade to less and less, then to nothing. I agree. I don’t want to be that “you can’t talk to him” boyfriend. I should have been, but I couldn’t be. I ask to hear the phone call recordings. She says she think’s I shouldn’t because it may be too much of a shock to hear his voice at this time.

 

Two weeks and she tells me he texted, asking for information about something irrelevant. She talked him through a problem. I freak. She thinks it’s innocent because it was just a problem he had. I explain that THIS is the problem…that there will always be a desire for him to lean on her like he did as his girlfriend, but that she isn’t supposed to be playing that role for him anymore! She finally seems to get it. She tells me that next time he texts, that she will let me know and we will send it together. In the coming days, we preemptively draft something to send him, to tell him this is the end of communication. She is to send it. I ask her later in the week if she did. She said she lost it, and we will need to type it again. We never do.

 

I check in every now and then asking if he has texted. The answer is always no. Five months later, we are travelling for her birthday. A couple days later I ask if he wished her happy birthday. She said that he did but she didn’t want to ruin the trip by telling me. She shows me. She just said ‘Thanks’.

 

That’s it. After that, every time I have asked if she heard from him, the answer has been ‘no’. A year later, with no new occurrences, and a more openness from her, we are engaged. Married a year after that, this past summer. Things have been good the past couple of years. I ask now and then if he has messaged her. It comes to my mind less and less. The answer is always ‘no’. After the wedding I asked her if he reached out before the wedding at all. She told me that one of his friends did, so she knows that he knows, but that he did not. Her eyes well up and some tears start to roll down her cheeks while she tells me this. I ask why it brings tears to her eyes. My fear is that they spoke at length at the opportunity they lost. Her answer is that she is sad about what she did, and wants to know that there will be a day that what she did will not be on my mind creating doubt. She wants me to feel her love and not have to fear her. Maybe she’s right. Maybe I need to start trusting her more.

 

We are enjoying married life. I love her. She is as happy as I have saw her. Life is good.

 

This week, I am looking through her ipad. She got a new one a year ago, just after the engagement. I am scrolling through pictures. Us, our trips, our fun. I see engagement pics. Then there, in the days following the engagement, I see a collection of a dozen pics. Ones I know because she has shown me her private Facebook folders which include folders of each of her boyfriends (I am ok with them, they are part of her past and life story, so long as they stay there in her archive only). Most are landscapes in this collection of a dozen now postdated as three days after our engagement (not the taken date, but the new saved date), including one of he and her together embracing, with some friends. And another of her writing his name in the sand inside a heart she made, with his shadow as he takes the picture.

 

I am heartbroken that for some reason following our engagement those are pictures she was spending time on. I look some more and I find a phone number in the ipad that is from his country. This ipad is a year old. The last time they communicated was supposedly two years ago now.

 

So here I am again, contemplating whether I am healing, whether I am making too much out of nothing, or things in the past that she has been working hard to get past in the last two years if not the time prior to that. She has been happy the last two years, and I have nothing solid to point to direct deception. Is her heart hurting for him in a nostalgic moment enough to be this broken up over? Or do we all have fleeting moments of wonder at live crossroads like engagements and marriages? Do I look at the 99% of effort she has put in and not focus on this 1%? Or let this 1% rip me open like it has? I certainly need to tell her and ask about the number and photos. But can I trust her answers when it’s about him? Time has healed some, but I think I would be more healed if I had more examples of her telling me things she wouldn’t have to, but which were ugly in nature. At least then I would know I’, getting the truth. As it stands, his blatant disappearing after that last birthday wish is more concern than the content they could ever talk about.

 

This was loooooooong, but it helped me think it through, even if no one goes through the whole thing, thank you for being a forum to share my thoughts and feelings. Just writing it out, and imagining it through all your eyes, those I have come to see give such great advice, is actually embarrassing. I know what I would say to someone like me. I had ample opportunities to know who she was and what I was getting into. I have no one to blame for the path I am on, except myself. I know what needs to be done to fee myself from the chaos of a relationship without trust. But will I? For now I am working on trust, but I don’t know what the future brings. I fear that if trust doesn’t grow, my shell to dull my feelings will. I’ve found safety in unloving relationships in the past, and I know it’s my nature to turn my feelings off when at risk of being hurt. I don’t want to go that path this time.

 

Thank you all.

Edited November 30, 2017 by BMI03

[lucy_in_disguise]

Here's the deal. Either you trust her - or you don't. Which is it?

 

It may help to clarify what you are trusting her with. Perhaps that's no contact. From your very lengthy post I could not determine if this was a boundary that has been established, but if not, it is a very reasonable one, imo. Having clear boundaries makes it much easier to evaluate your partners behaivior- makes it easier for both parties to meet each other's needs. So if you haven't already done so, please establish some clear boundaries.

 

If you do trust her- you need to get a grip. I think analyzing her possible motives and thoughts to the extent you have done- and from such a cynical point of view- is very unhealthy. This is one reason why many advocate avoiding asking for too many details about our partners past lives. If it is truly in the past- the details are usually not relevant, and serve only to fuel speculation and grim fantasies. Why on earth do you know how many times a day they used to have sex?

 

With regard to her actual behaivior - my impression is that you both had a rocky start to your relationship. You were still technically married, she did not feel secure based on your status and dated around prior to you becoming exclusive. It was ****ty of her to pretend that wasn't the case once things got serious- but I would not consider this a life altering lie. It is more of a white lie told to appear better to someone she really liked. If you weren't exclusive, you never should have asked (and she never should have volunteered) that info in the first place.

 

Then there is the recent "discovery" - the old iPad pictures. I see a few possible options. 1. It is a cloud issue. My apple devices seem to pull a small number of pictures from many years ago. They are terrible pictures and I have no idea why these specific pictures keep downloading or how to delete them. It could very well be a technology issue. Option 2- she just decided to save some pictures. Without clear boundaries established beforehand where you expect her to delete all pics of her ex- I don't think you have grounds for being too upset here. Yes, her ex was part of her past and many people wish to hold on to mementos. It has nothing to do with their relationship being better and imo you are romanticizing it and attributing feelings she has never claimed to have just to make yourself miserable.

 

Again, either you trust her or not. Trust is always a leap of faith. looking for reasons to justify not trusting someone is kind of pointless. Even if don't find one, you still don't trust them. I would not stay in a marriage with someone I did not trust. But if that's not really the issue- then get yourself together and stop wallowing in your misery and her past.

[lolablue17]

Here's some insights.

 

1. She doesn't love you enough. You know it, She admits it. SHe may respect you, cares for you, but the LOVE feeling is not really there. This alone, would have made me to leave.

 

2. In addition to the previous paragraph, and with no link to it, many people turn to be attracted to the impossible. They tend to glorify things they missed from the past, and find it difficult to get over it and to let go. It happens especially in cases of abuse. So I bet that after you leave her, she might be glorifying you, when she's with her next man. But as long as you want her, she will never glorify you emotionally.

 

3. All my red alert are convinced that although she tries, she might fall for him when the logistic terms will allow it. For example, if the OM is geogaphically near by, or when he needs her support... She then will have a very low level of resistance to it, including possible lying, hiding and cheating.

 

That's it. If you stay, it means you have a very low self esteem, and probably a very desperate man. I wish you luck.

[elaine567]

Did she ever actually read and discuss with you that long email you sent in an attempt to clear the air after you found out she lied about the other men at the beginning of your relationship?

[BarbedFenceRider]

From a guys perspective here, she is damaged. That ex really screwed her up. She has unhealthy views on sex, personal relationships, forming healthy bonds and personal security and boundaries. If you were just meeting this girl and in the very beginning of a dating scene...I would advise you to jump ship. Eject out of the airplane, whatever....

But since you have what looks to be an extensive history together. In for a penny, in for a pound....You need to see some external professional help. Individual counseling for her should be required. Not because she is a bad person, on the contrary. She needs to rid herself of unhealthy bonds made from that past relationship and others. She needs to develop a healthy view of herself. Eliminating the co-dependency with male partners.

As for your position in the marriage, you need to set boundaries and maintain it. No caving. You either alpha up, or someone else will take that role from you. Traditional roles being what they are, in other countries (Latin America) amongst others have confusing parameters. This is why I feel that professional help can organize you two, and help with "translation" issues.

[BMI03]

Here's the deal. Either you trust her - or you don't. Which is it?

 

Thank you lucy for taking the time to read such a long post.

 

To answer your question on trust, I am being truthful with myself, I don’t completely trust her.

I trust her with my life

I trust that she loves me

I trust that she wants to make life work with me

I don’t trust her to tell me the truth about him

I don’t trust that she wasn’t in love with us both and made a really hard decision to choose me, but glossed it over as easy.

I don’t trust her to tell the truth if it will ‘get her in trouble’ with me on a large scale

 

You are right about the no contact. It was never a mandated thing. We discussed, and we wrote the note together to send him to tell him they had to stop communicating, but it never went, and because the communications stopped, we didn’t follow through. I wasn’t familiar with the concept of a NC letter…we were just doing it as our own means to solve the issue. When he wished her Happy Birthday, it seemed harmless so it wasn’t a bigger conversation.

 

I suppose if I think of what I want, I want honesty. It’s not the end of my world if he wishes her happy birthday, or even if she says it to him. With her other exs it’s fine…but I want to be in the loop. That’s my boundary…being lied to. And it’s hard for me to be sure I have been here or not. It’s all circumstantial and I have a mind that requires indisputable evidence. So I feel stuck.

 

Thanks for the ‘get a grip’ part. I feel that. I live my life reacting not to people’s actions, but to what I believe are the motivations for their actions. I believe it’s an effective way to operate, but it is exhausting, and at times like this, mesmerizingly torturous. I agree with things being left in the past, when they are truly in the past. I told her I didn’t need to know much of anything about past relationships, except for those men who were still in her life in some way and I may interact with. I don’t like being the one out of the loop in a three-person interaction. Of course not to the level of how often they slept together, but that was an answer to a silly question on day when I asked if the number of times we did it was the most she had ever had in a day…lesson: don’t ask that question if you may not like the answer.

 

Rocky start is good description. Great from the perspective of how we felt and clarity of feelings I felt, but lots of garbage around us. And I never asked if we were retroactively exclusive, she donated that info one day. I wish she didn’t when I found it wasn’t true. I would be much happier knowing she dated daily for months but told me the truth about it. But to your point, it’s fair that she wants to mold the memory into how she felt perhaps but didn’t feel safe with me at the time. Certainly forgivable.

 

To your last point on leap of faith is the most insightful to me. That may be why I am having a hard time. I am an analytical mind, scientific process, math, black and white, quantitative and empirical. I have a hard time making leaps of faith and am risk adverse. It’s (only in part) why I stayed in a completely loveless relationship over a decade to the point of marrying prior to this one. Because I knew it was safe and I wouldn’t have my heart broke if I didn’t love her. This is where I struggle. I where I find myself now. Finding those pictures hurt, but not as much as finding the texts that time. I almost wasn’t surprised this time. No tears. That worries me more that I am making myself cold to it so that I don’t hurt from it. Making it a safe place for me.

[BMI03]

Here's some insights.

 

1. She doesn't love you enough. You know it, She admits it. SHe may respect you, cares for you, but the LOVE feeling is not really there. This alone, would have made me to leave.

 

2. In addition to the previous paragraph, and with no link to it, many people turn to be attracted to the impossible. They tend to glorify things they missed from the past, and find it difficult to get over it and to let go. It happens especially in cases of abuse. So I bet that after you leave her, she might be glorifying you, when she's with her next man. But as long as you want her, she will never glorify you emotionally.

 

3. All my red alert are convinced that although she tries, she might fall for him when the logistic terms will allow it. For example, if the OM is geogaphically near by, or when he needs her support... She then will have a very low level of resistance to it, including possible lying, hiding and cheating.

 

That's it. If you stay, it means you have a very low self esteem, and probably a very desperate man. I wish you luck.

 

Thanks lolablue. That was long so I appreciate your reading it.

 

I agree. I believe she loves me, but I think it was a very difficult choice for her that six months after we started things. I think if he in country then things could be different.

Very possible, thank you for that insight.

I agree. I don’t fear him returning physically…it’s logistically unlikely. But them connecting again is a fear I have. And It’s not fun to have a fear that your wife’s heart and commitment is at least shared with another, however small the time spent there.

 

If I stay, I think you are right. I think my self-worth has taken a hit.

[BMI03]

Did she ever actually read and discuss with you that long email you sent in an attempt to clear the air after you found out she lied about the other men at the beginning of your relationship?

 

 

Thanks elaine,

 

No, she didn’t. I added an update a couple of weeks ago. She said she got to a point but didn’t finish it. My gut tells me she did finish reading it, but didn’t want to have to go through the hard conversation about it as of now. I wasn’t going to push it…just knowing that she knows I know is helpful, and it’s not a big gap to close…just something I feel should be out in the open. To the other poster’s comments, we had a rocky start so I accept it. I just don’t want it to be a lie we tell pretend is true.

[BMI03]

From a guys perspective here, she is damaged. That ex really screwed her up. She has unhealthy views on sex, personal relationships, forming healthy bonds and personal security and boundaries. If you were just meeting this girl and in the very beginning of a dating scene...I would advise you to jump ship. Eject out of the airplane, whatever....

But since you have what looks to be an extensive history together. In for a penny, in for a pound....You need to see some external professional help. Individual counseling for her should be required. Not because she is a bad person, on the contrary. She needs to rid herself of unhealthy bonds made from that past relationship and others. She needs to develop a healthy view of herself. Eliminating the co-dependency with male partners.

As for your position in the marriage, you need to set boundaries and maintain it. No caving. You either alpha up, or someone else will take that role from you. Traditional roles being what they are, in other countries (Latin America) amongst others have confusing parameters. This is why I feel that professional help can organize you two, and help with "translation" issues.

 

 

Thanks BarbedFence, that was a very helpful post. I agree. I think she has been hurting for a long time. She was a single child of a single mom who passed away, with a rocky to non-existent relationship with her father, and growing up in a house of female family only. So I know her relation to men has been a uncharted course for her.

 

And I agree, there were a lot of things that would point to bailing. Of course on this forum I share the troubles. The flip side is that she has helped me grow. I have gained more insight into who I am and how I work in life in the time I have met her through our overnight conversations, than the 30-some odd years before it. We can dive into important topics and explore oru feelings and decision making process, and come out better people. And we enjoy each other immensely. Every day she brings positivity to my live that makes me love her more than the day before, even through things like this.

 

But like you said, she has had some people really screw with her. Her father, her ex. Even her family has taken liberties to place ownership on things that are rightfully hers, as she is the youngest of her family. Admittingly, she has told me that she grew up in both a family and a culture where you do not admit mistakes that will get you in trouble. You just don’t. Whether it’s a parent or a cop…you deny. And so she understands why the broken trust is going to grow back slowly. And she is patient when I feel the need to ask questions or test her (example: ‘can I see your phone?’). I try to create a safe place for her to tell me bad news because I know her tendency and upbringing dictates to hide it. She is doing what is needed in a lot of ways, and that is growth for her, as such a private and independent person. I don’t want to discount that, which makes it difficult when my trust is shaken again.

 

 

 

As it stands, my next action is to ask her about it. I will tell her that I need to know that she is being honest with me. And that I think she has come a long way in her openness with me, and to be patient with my need to know things, and with my need to ask questions…they are all aimed at allowing my trust to grow. Then I will ask again when the last time was that she had communication with him. She will answer that it was her birthday two years ago. I’ll ask if there is anything else I need to understand about her feelings for him. She will say no. I will then tell her that I found these photos and ask what the context is, and tell her that I found his phone number on the new ipad, and ask why it would be there and to help me understand where her head is.

 

I don’t know where it goes from there.

[BluesPower]

Thanks elaine,

 

No, she didn’t. I added an update a couple of weeks ago. She said she got to a point but didn’t finish it. My gut tells me she did finish reading it, but didn’t want to have to go through the hard conversation about it as of now. I wasn’t going to push it…just knowing that she knows I know is helpful, and it’s not a big gap to close…just something I feel should be out in the open. To the other poster’s comments, we had a rocky start so I accept it. I just don’t want it to be a lie we tell pretend is true.

 

This is a problem in a big way...

 

If you wrote your concerns in a long letter, and she does not want to talk about it, WOW, that is a huge.

 

Are you just really conflict avoidant? That is a conversation that you need to have no matter what the consequences are.

 

I have read all your stuff, but this is just a BID, SUPER DUPER, RED FLAG in every way.

 

How is it that you let this stand? You have concerns that are valid and you need to get some answers that you have every right to have or you need to get out.

[BMI03]

This is a problem in a big way...

 

If you wrote your concerns in a long letter, and she does not want to talk about it, WOW, that is a huge.

 

Are you just really conflict avoidant? That is a conversation that you need to have no matter what the consequences are.

 

I have read all your stuff, but this is just a BID, SUPER DUPER, RED FLAG in every way.

 

How is it that you let this stand? You have concerns that are valid and you need to get some answers that you have every right to have or you need to get out.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read through.

 

To clarify, the email was pertaining to finding the details about the other guys she was dating when we first started seeing each other (the notes I made here that she had slept with one or two others during that first month). That is some untruths that I wanted to clear up with her and so sent the email. It was a time we never claimed to be exclusive, however a status she retroactively claimed untruthfully later. That’s why it’s something I felt the need to clear the air on, but not something I was pushing hard on. The reason I emailed my thoughts was not for conflict avoidance (though I admit that’s my tendency), but because I find it gives me clarity to blow all the details out in a structured way, vs talking. I find when talking I get lost on the points.

 

Either way, the email was about that, as opposed to the ex. The items with the ex have all been brought up to her to date, minus this last find this week of pictures from a year ago (electronic copies of old photos from when they were together, but dated last year as though re-saved onto the new iPad)and a phone number stored in the contacts of the new iPad which was purchased months after the last time he supposedly messaged her. I have been away for work all week but will be back this weekend and will have to discus it with her.

Edited November 30, 2017 by BMI03

[BarbedFenceRider]

I find it so strange that a partner will go back to the abuser so many times. In this case, it's just an Ipad...For now. But she was sent to the hospital and yet, she can text this guy little sweet nothings... WTF? When I was a paramedic, a lot of the calls to a certain neighborhood was domestic violence. I patched up women all the time, just to have them bail the SOB out of jail and take him home and start cooking and cleaning. Like nothing happened. I'm sure there are psychologists that understand the level of thinking here, but for me...Just unfathomable.

[BMI03]

I find it so strange that a partner will go back to the abuser so many times. In this case, it's just an Ipad...For now. But she was sent to the hospital and yet, she can text this guy little sweet nothings... WTF? When I was a paramedic, a lot of the calls to a certain neighborhood was domestic violence. I patched up women all the time, just to have them bail the SOB out of jail and take him home and start cooking and cleaning. Like nothing happened. I'm sure there are psychologists that understand the level of thinking here, but for me...Just unfathomable.

 

I find it so strange that a partner will go back to the abuser so many times. In this case, it's just an Ipad...For now. But she was sent to the hospital and yet, she can text this guy little sweet nothings... WTF? When I was a paramedic, a lot of the calls to a certain neighborhood was domestic violence. I patched up women all the time, just to have them bail the SOB out of jail and take him home and start cooking and cleaning. Like nothing happened. I'm sure there are psychologists that understand the level of thinking here, but for me...Just unfathomable.

 

I agree. We talked about it and I could tell she was shocked to see how much hatred I had for this man. She really wasn’t getting it until I asked her to image her feelings for a woman from my past she found out purposely ran me over with a car.

 

There is what she tells me and what I feel from her is true. Over the last couple of years she tells me that she realizes now that it was not love with him, but rather a sense that she had to be with him and marry him because he was the person she had sex with. That was what she was tought. She belonged to him. She talks now about filing charges even though he isnout of country, just so she knows she did something even if symbolic. Sometimes she talks about telling her story about it at support groups.

 

In truth, I think she stayed because she loved him more than she could handle. He filled a void left by her mother’s death and felt like the only person important in her world. His leaving terrified her. She has shared with me that she came close to suicide twice because of their fights. I think the rest about filing charges and support groups is just something she says to me to try and make headway in building my confidence she is over him. I’m not sure it’s real.

 

Anyhow, ya. I hate him for what he did to her. And the arrogance to still think it was an ok thing to do.

 

I’ll see where things go from here.

[Cephalopod]

 

I’ve been here before. What do I do about it now?

 

 

 

 

Umm...let's see....

 

 

 

 

Divorce her?

[BluesPower]

Thanks for taking the time to read through.

 

To clarify, the email was pertaining to finding the details about the other guys she was dating when we first started seeing each other (the notes I made here that she had slept with one or two others during that first month). That is some untruths that I wanted to clear up with her and so sent the email. It was a time we never claimed to be exclusive, however a status she retroactively claimed untruthfully later. That’s why it’s something I felt the need to clear the air on, but not something I was pushing hard on. The reason I emailed my thoughts was not for conflict avoidance (though I admit that’s my tendency), but because I find it gives me clarity to blow all the details out in a structured way, vs talking. I find when talking I get lost on the points.

 

Either way, the email was about that, as opposed to the ex. The items with the ex have all been brought up to her to date, minus this last find this week of pictures from a year ago (electronic copies of old photos from when they were together, but dated last year as though re-saved onto the new iPad)and a phone number stored in the contacts of the new iPad which was purchased months after the last time he supposedly messaged her. I have been away for work all week but will be back this weekend and will have to discus it with her.

 

Listen, you sound very logical... and yes conflict avoidant.

 

While I don't want to tell you what to do, I have to say that not answering the email and the pictures of the abusive ex would give me cause for concern.

 

Here is the deal, nice guys finish last, always. I am sorry to say that for everyone here on LS, but guys it is the truth.

 

Now maybe she has been faithful since you guys have been together exclusively, OK let's say.

 

The problem is the lying about all of it, brother that is an issue.

 

And here is the deal... I was married to a woman for 26 years that did not love me, and she used me as a meal ticket and breeding stock for our children.

 

Long story, but I finally figured it out, and let me tell you the pain is unimaginable, like nothing I have ever felt. And I have had a lot of pain in my life.

 

So what I am telling you is that you have to talk this out and wait for REAL answers to your questions and issues. Don't be conflict avoidant and let all of this simmer until you find out that your worst fears are realized.

 

Better to know now than later, I promise.

 

Not saying that your worst fears will be realized, just saying that you have to confront all of these issues now not years from now...

[dichotomy]

People love other people differently.

 

That is your wife MAY have a more romantic or sexual or something type of love for Tom (ex) than you - and she has a different kind of love for you then him. You may wish to call it plan b - but it maybe that that B is for "balance" because on balance her love for you was the right choice.

 

That said there MAY be some truth that your are the "nice safe stable guy" she decided to marry. That happens all the time - especially with women.

 

I felt these same feelings about my wife's AP, OM. However my WW was also very clear on his flaws and that they could not have married. I am very very sure he would never have married her - and if he did it would have been over in 2-3 years. Passionate/fun - but not lasting dedication and sacrifice. True love in the end is about sacrifice for another.

 

At some point you need to love, respect, and admire yourself as your own man - and stop looking for it from her or comparing to him. It is sad to come to grips with this - but you also have to understand its human nature for many a person to choose a spouse with a different lens and a different love than for a lover.

 

I often wish (and still do I guess) that my WW would have that narrow type of romantic/sexual/chemical love for me - but she loves me (and more importantly respects/admires me) in ways she never did for him.

 

I am sorry for what your going through.

 

Be your own fuel.

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by dichotomy

[BMI03]

So I arrived home last night and we talked. She asked why I had been off all week. She knew something was wrong but wasn’t pushing me. She knew I’d rather talk it over in person. And she had tears already so she knew there was something to it.

 

I told her that something happened and I realized that I can trust her with my life, but I don’t trust her with being honest with me about her ex. She asked where that came from and why now and her eyes welled up. I told her about finding the photographs on the ipad. And I asked her if the number I found on the ipad was his. It was.

 

She was confused, and couldn’t give any real reason for either. She said she didn’t know what pictures they were, but she remembered after we were engaged, thinking to herself that she was going to start getting Facebook requests from my family, and that she should take down any pictures of her ex and her that she had on her Facebook. She said that some of those pictures she only had on Facebook so must have saved them there before deleting them so she wouldn’t lose them forever. In the end she said she just ended up making a folder private. She apologized for my having saw them and triggered like that.

 

The phone number she couldn’t explain. I told her the name it was under, and she agreed that it would be his number, but she said she was confused as to why it would be there because she deleted his number from all of her devices. I told her that I just really need to hear the truth. That I would rather hear about the other times he messaged her and hurt and get over it. I told her that my experience of him is made up of these hand full of things where she has asked me to trust her and I felt burned, and that there has never been experiences beyond that to show me I can start trusting her here. I told her that after the crap history of the context of him in our relationship, I realized this past Monday that my trust in this area has not healed, but remained status quo because there have been no examples for her to use to help me see her worlds match reality. Maybe because there have been no opportunities, or she just isn’t using them. But without them, I continue to remain unhealed. It’s a fork in the road where I remain unhealed, and if no other triggers in life like these pictures, then maybe that would reluctantly work for a while. But if not healed, these are the kinds of conversations that will happen when something comes across my path about him.

 

She held me and was supportive throughout the talk.

 

Then I suggested the recordings of the conversation she had with him 10 months in which I know ended with her crying. She started with ‘they are deleted’. I suspected they were not so I told her that she told me she had them. She said she wasn’t sure. I asked her if we can look and see if they exist.

 

Now the supportive and hug turned into a pull away and frustration. She asked why I would want to dig up something from two years ago, and how would that help. I told her that I am grasping at straws to try and heal myself and gain a trust for her as it pertains to him, and in the absence of new things that she can bring to me, that’s all I know of where she knows she can trust me with new information. She was now more frustrated and said she didn’t understand how this would help, and that if I was so untrusting in this space I should have made that decision before marrying her (fair point). She asked me why on earth I think she would want to bring up all the past and crap from that call two years ago that she doesn’t want to deal with. I told her, to help heal me. That I am hurting and if not, what does she suggest. She didn’t have answers. Then she said that maybe going to see a counselor is a good idea because she doesn’t think my listing to that call is going to help. I told her it may not, but what else do I have to go on to start having faith in her. I suggested we look and just see if the call recording still exists at least. That we can debate later the idea of listening. She called me a crab and accused me of just wanting that one thing and not giving up on it. So I asked her what else we can do to help build up my security here. She staid quiet and then asked why again I would want to hear that. I was frustrated now so I got up and told her, because I am hurting here, and I am desperately trying to find a way to heal it, and it doesn’t feel like I am getting support from you in helping with this. I said I don’t care how much you think things on that call recording would hurt me. I would rather hear them and be upset then heal, then not. Because now they are made up of all the worst case things my brain will imagine, and so I am living with them anyway but in a fashion worse off than they likely are.

 

I got up and stepped away, pulled my hood over my head. She pulled a blanket over hers. We didn’t talk for about 15 minutes. Then she got up, used the washroom, and went upstairs. Normal behavior after we fight. I followed in case the ipad was up there. I was ok with not listening to the recordings now…but I wanted to know if they existed. That alone would go a long way if I knew she was ok with my listening to them in the end. I laid next to her. She started crying saying she doesn’t want to hurt me. I told her I understand, but that we never dealt with this correctly. We shelved it but didn’t deal with it. She asked if I thought marriage counselling may be a good idea. I said perhaps. He held each other for a while. She asked if I would go downstairs to get the ipad. I did, and brought it up. She looked with me and saw that the recording was still there. I said ok, we don’t need to listen to it now, but it’s helpful to know you will share it.

 

That’s where it left. The photos, she agreed the timing looked bad, and was sorry it hurt me. But she asked I don’t think there was more to her thinking (a hard letting go or anything) that was in there. She barely remembers but just a photo clean up. The phone number she has no answer for. She can’t explain it and hasn’t yet. Not that things are calm, I don’t know what to do with that.

 

Most importantly, she knows how I feel, and that I need her to work with me on helping build my confidence in her ability to be truthful to me on this topic. Shelving it and ignoring it is not enough. Because the reality is, that I don’t know if I feel much different about it today than I do yesterday. I may be a bit more apt to believe her today, and I can sympathyse that if it’s all truthful that he has not contacted her over the last couple of years, that these conversations must be frustrating for her, but she is the one that put us here. And she knows that.

 

So, time continues.

[BluesPower]

So I arrived home last night and we talked. She asked why I had been off all week. She knew something was wrong but wasn’t pushing me. She knew I’d rather talk it over in person. And she had tears already so she knew there was something to it.

 

I told her that something happened and I realized that I can trust her with my life, but I don’t trust her with being honest with me about her ex. She asked where that came from and why now and her eyes welled up. I told her about finding the photographs on the ipad. And I asked her if the number I found on the ipad was his. It was.

 

She was confused, and couldn’t give any real reason for either. She said she didn’t know what pictures they were, but she remembered after we were engaged, thinking to herself that she was going to start getting Facebook requests from my family, and that she should take down any pictures of her ex and her that she had on her Facebook. She said that some of those pictures she only had on Facebook so must have saved them there before deleting them so she wouldn’t lose them forever. In the end she said she just ended up making a folder private. She apologized for my having saw them and triggered like that.

 

The phone number she couldn’t explain. I told her the name it was under, and she agreed that it would be his number, but she said she was confused as to why it would be there because she deleted his number from all of her devices. I told her that I just really need to hear the truth. That I would rather hear about the other times he messaged her and hurt and get over it. I told her that my experience of him is made up of these hand full of things where she has asked me to trust her and I felt burned, and that there has never been experiences beyond that to show me I can start trusting her here. I told her that after the crap history of the context of him in our relationship, I realized this past Monday that my trust in this area has not healed, but remained status quo because there have been no examples for her to use to help me see her worlds match reality. Maybe because there have been no opportunities, or she just isn’t using them. But without them, I continue to remain unhealed. It’s a fork in the road where I remain unhealed, and if no other triggers in life like these pictures, then maybe that would reluctantly work for a while. But if not healed, these are the kinds of conversations that will happen when something comes across my path about him.

 

She held me and was supportive throughout the talk.

 

Then I suggested the recordings of the conversation she had with him 10 months in which I know ended with her crying. She started with ‘they are deleted’. I suspected they were not so I told her that she told me she had them. She said she wasn’t sure. I asked her if we can look and see if they exist.

 

Now the supportive and hug turned into a pull away and frustration. She asked why I would want to dig up something from two years ago, and how would that help. I told her that I am grasping at straws to try and heal myself and gain a trust for her as it pertains to him, and in the absence of new things that she can bring to me, that’s all I know of where she knows she can trust me with new information. She was now more frustrated and said she didn’t understand how this would help, and that if I was so untrusting in this space I should have made that decision before marrying her (fair point). She asked me why on earth I think she would want to bring up all the past and crap from that call two years ago that she doesn’t want to deal with. I told her, to help heal me. That I am hurting and if not, what does she suggest. She didn’t have answers. Then she said that maybe going to see a counselor is a good idea because she doesn’t think my listing to that call is going to help. I told her it may not, but what else do I have to go on to start having faith in her. I suggested we look and just see if the call recording still exists at least. That we can debate later the idea of listening. She called me a crab and accused me of just wanting that one thing and not giving up on it. So I asked her what else we can do to help build up my security here. She staid quiet and then asked why again I would want to hear that. I was frustrated now so I got up and told her, because I am hurting here, and I am desperately trying to find a way to heal it, and it doesn’t feel like I am getting support from you in helping with this. I said I don’t care how much you think things on that call recording would hurt me. I would rather hear them and be upset then heal, then not. Because now they are made up of all the worst case things my brain will imagine, and so I am living with them anyway but in a fashion worse off than they likely are.

 

I got up and stepped away, pulled my hood over my head. She pulled a blanket over hers. We didn’t talk for about 15 minutes. Then she got up, used the washroom, and went upstairs. Normal behavior after we fight. I followed in case the ipad was up there. I was ok with not listening to the recordings now…but I wanted to know if they existed. That alone would go a long way if I knew she was ok with my listening to them in the end. I laid next to her. She started crying saying she doesn’t want to hurt me. I told her I understand, but that we never dealt with this correctly. We shelved it but didn’t deal with it. She asked if I thought marriage counselling may be a good idea. I said perhaps. He held each other for a while. She asked if I would go downstairs to get the ipad. I did, and brought it up. She looked with me and saw that the recording was still there. I said ok, we don’t need to listen to it now, but it’s helpful to know you will share it.

 

That’s where it left. The photos, she agreed the timing looked bad, and was sorry it hurt me. But she asked I don’t think there was more to her thinking (a hard letting go or anything) that was in there. She barely remembers but just a photo clean up. The phone number she has no answer for. She can’t explain it and hasn’t yet. Not that things are calm, I don’t know what to do with that.

 

Most importantly, she knows how I feel, and that I need her to work with me on helping build my confidence in her ability to be truthful to me on this topic. Shelving it and ignoring it is not enough. Because the reality is, that I don’t know if I feel much different about it today than I do yesterday. I may be a bit more apt to believe her today, and I can sympathyse that if it’s all truthful that he has not contacted her over the last couple of years, that these conversations must be frustrating for her, but she is the one that put us here. And she knows that.

 

So, time continues.

 

That was a good first attempt... Do not stop your questioning and discussion about ALL OF THIS.

 

It seems that you held your ground for the most part.

 

Several things you need to know...

 

1) She is lying. About all of it. Sorry but I am right on this one. The way that she answered the questions about the photos and the number prove that she is lying. THERE IS NO WAY FOR THAT NUMBER TO GET IN THERE UNLESS SHE PUT IT THERE.

 

2) Are you checking her phone? Brother you need to.

 

3) She has not broken contact with him. She is still talking to him and she will today.

 

4) At the very least, she is having an emotional affair with her ex.

 

I understand that you will say that I/we are wrong , because others will join me on this conclusion, but so many of us have seen this time and time again. You need to listen to that phone call. Why have you not done that already?

 

She is not going to confess to you about anything. If you want to continue to be PLAN B then stay where you are at.

 

I would not do it, I don't think you should do it either...

[BMI03]

That was a good first attempt... Do not stop your questioning and discussion about ALL OF THIS.

 

It seems that you held your ground for the most part.

 

Several things you need to know...

 

1) She is lying. About all of it. Sorry but I am right on this one. The way that she answered the questions about the photos and the number prove that she is lying. THERE IS NO WAY FOR THAT NUMBER TO GET IN THERE UNLESS SHE PUT IT THERE.

 

2) Are you checking her phone? Brother you need to.

 

3) She has not broken contact with him. She is still talking to him and she will today.

 

4) At the very least, she is having an emotional affair with her ex.

 

I understand that you will say that I/we are wrong , because others will join me on this conclusion, but so many of us have seen this time and time again. You need to listen to that phone call. Why have you not done that already?

 

She is not going to confess to you about anything. If you want to continue to be PLAN B then stay where you are at.

 

I would not do it, I don't think you should do it either...

 

Truth is, I have already heard the audio of the call, though she doesn't know that. She didn't hide the audio, so even though back two years ago she told me she didn't think it was a good idea, over time and using her ipad it was sitting right in the video section as multiple videos, the only videos, so it wasn't hidden away. It was black video, him on speaker phone and her and he talking. She was telling him that he needs to stop sending her emotionally charged things. That they had their time and it didn't work. That she is sorry for all the hurt that came from their relationship that she caused, and know he is too, but that she has moved on and she really hopes that he can move on also and can't be in this limbo. She talked through tears in it based on the sniffles.

 

My asking was more about seeing if she could trust me with it. She was resistant and got defensive like I mentioned, but she told me I could listen to it if I want, that it's there. The fact she will let me helps. Like I said, I don't think I am there yet, but it helps.

 

The photo reason I can believe. The phone number thing I need to think about the sequencing...old ipad, old phone, new ipad, new phone. When did the number deletions take place on what device, to see if it's possible it carried over.

 

If the photo and number have reasonable explanations, I don't have reason to believe she and he have talked over the last couple of years. She lets me openly use her phone, computer, and even this ipad which I could have looked at any time prior to make this discovery easily as well.

 

However I am unapologetic about being so sensitive to the idea, and needing the reassurance. She put us here with her earlier actions, and I told her that. She understood that point.

 

Thanks for your comments BluesPower. I certainly am not going to say you are wrong. Because truth is, I don't know. And even if the bad times were two years ago and muddied by my divorce closure, they have not been adequately put to rest for me. That will take time.