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How to shake the loser-with-women self image?


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GoodOnPaper

Honestly the only thing I really wanted out of marriage was to not feel like an inept loser when it came to women like I felt my entire singlehood - except for a brief reprieve in college - but that hasn't happened. The few women who would date me always had one foot out the door from the get-go. When I met my wife, the attraction imbalance was the other way - a first for me. Her weight had me conflicted about how I'd be thought of by others - of course, this is silly in the long run but we all see how so many young single guys on LS seem to act like any overweight woman has cooties. However, I was miserable after a long dry spell and I figured I had to give things a chance. Now, it's been a 20+ year marriage with kids and the whole white-picket-fence nine yards.

 

We have a lot of great things going for long-term compatibility. We enjoy each other's company, make each other laugh, really LIKE each other. I feel like I live the mirror image of most people - the compatibility stuff is easy but the physical intimacy part is a struggle even though I don't think of her platonically.

 

I did get over the weight thing but it robbed me of a honeymoon period. The weird thing is that while she is the one who is more invested/attracted, that intensity has never carried over into the bedroom. She's always had a lot of inhibitedness, insecurity, and lacked variety - no oral (giving or receiving) and not even any face-to-face positions where I can see a full view of her. All this when our relationship has been as solid as a rock. I don't think she dislikes sex or is intentionally withholding - it's more like she's simply not not-interested. I can't help but think that if I had had more experience or otherwise been better at attracting women, I would have ended up with someone more sexual or at least know how to bring out some openness in my wife.

 

Anyway, this all adds up to me feeling like the same inept loser with women that I've felt like since I was a teenager. How can I break out of this and generate some self-confidence and esteem without some sort of external validation? Cheating doesn't seem like a good idea - I'm sure I wouldn't have the guts or know-how to go through with it, anyway. I've never even been flirted with - probably the only married guy anyone on LS knows who hasn't been.

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"She's always had a lot of inhibitedness, insecurity, and lacked variety - no oral (giving or receiving) and not even any face-to-face positions where I can see a full view of her. All this when our relationship has been as solid as a rock."

 

So whats new? Changed?You married into this right?

 

I do understand however, being in a low sex marriage myself. For me I am finding my wife's weight (and lack of exercise as well) simply has become a health issue which adds significantly to her ever declining sexual interest. For self esteem issues I do understand - that does take work -in my case lots of work. My sexuality and image is no longer tied to my wife or other women - I own it - I am my own fuel. You can as well.

Edited by dichotomy
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GoodOnPaper
"She's always had a lot of inhibitedness, insecurity, and lacked variety - no oral (giving or receiving) and not even any face-to-face positions where I can see a full view of her. All this when our relationship has been as solid as a rock."

 

So whats new? Changed?You married into this right?

 

I do understand however, being in a low sex marriage myself. For me I am finding my wife's weight (and lack of exercise as well) simply has become a health issue which adds significantly to her ever declining sexual interest. For self esteem issues I do understand - that does take work -in my case lots of work. My sexuality and image is no longer tied to my wife or other women - I own it - I am my own fuel. You can as well.

 

Initially, the relief from no longer being single and experiencing my first unprotected sex with her was enough. Then, she didn't really open up as our relationship became permanent. I gave that some time but eventually I came to the realization that our sex life just wasn't providing the connectedness that I wanted. Of course by then, I'm waist-deep in the relationship and because I was so bad at attracting women, do I have reason to believe that it's possible for any sex life to provide that connectedness? That kind of thing may just be for those who are really good looking and/or charismatic.

 

Just exactly how do you NOT tie your sexuality and self-image to any woman? I think that sums up my question.

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"Honestly the only thing I really wanted out of marriage was to not feel like an inept loser when it came to women*"

 

Wow.....your poor wife.

 

I'd say personal counseling might help

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I'd say that if you're at the point of considering cheating (which is a really bad idea, by the way), then it's time for a serious talk with your wife that your sex life is not working for you. And you're going to have to mean it.

 

At the same time, I believe your wife may simply be really insecure about her body. You're going to have to be convincing that you're perfectly happy with her physique and that her timidity, anxiety, reservedness in the bedroom is a far bigger problem. I compliment my GF's face and show clear admiration for her curves. I don't want some skin and bones chick.

 

If you can stress that her insecurity is unfounded and that you really need more openness in the bedroom, you might just get it. Generally, I'd say that women need to respect their man to really be interested in bed, and beyond that they need to feel desirable. Some of this insecurity is on her but you can be a major factor in helping alleviate it.

 

My $.02 anyway.

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Just exactly how do you NOT tie your sexuality and self-image to any woman? I think that sums up my question.

 

 

Its hard for me to summarize exactly how I got to this it was a several year process. Some parts and pieces that may or may not apply to you:

 

I got therapy - two different women therapists helped me. It was difficult to talk to a woman about sex and myself esteem, but they were kind and helpful. I also took my wife to these women - who basically said in front of me and her "you got a great man - whats your problem with opening up sexually ?" that helped me take the focus and blame off myself.

 

I had some underlying old hurts/ losses/medical - I had to face them and work on them.

 

Age - with age comes some "I dont give a F what other people think of me"

 

Exercise, mediation, practicing loving/accepting myself. I know that sounds silly.

 

I guess I was also lucky to have had one relationship where the sex was fairly intense. It was a long time ago, but I benefit from remembering the passion that woman had with me.

 

Reading here on LS about sex - and other sites and reading books on sexuality (men and women) and relationships. Opening my views and thoughts up on sex, sexuality and more. I feel enlighted and more open while remaining true to my wife.

 

Learning to me more aggressive, sure of myself. Took up MMA a few years ago.

 

Learning to flirt and interact with women. Late in life, but its not cheating just to flirt and play a bit with women.

 

I think in the end you just have to learn to believe in yourself and your worth and value before anyone else can.

 

Sorry if this is rambling but its hard to explain. It was a process.

Edited by dichotomy
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I personally think it's a bad idea getting married before going through a period of pushing boundaries in dating.

 

It really changes you. I'm not the same guy I was 10 years back at all. In terms of personal growth, I would be a completely different person.

 

You never "sowed your wild oats" as it were.

 

Just exactly how do you NOT tie your sexuality and self-image to any woman? I think that sums up my question.

 

Yeah, I've heard that sort of thing a lot. "Women shouldn't validate you".

 

I think that's a load of delusional crap.

 

You have a decades long marriage. It's going to be very difficult to change dynamics overnight.

 

Honestly, most of the good things I've learnt to have a great intimate relationship came from completely burning and blowing up other relationships. Falling on my face over and over.

 

You are going to have to experiment and push boundaries, but within a your marriage. More difficult, but not exactly impossible - I wouldn't have thought.

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My first marriage was similar. We got married early with neither of us doing much with anyone else. It wasn't bad at the beginning. I thought it was a great marriage.

 

But she and I didn't take care of ourselves and the sex practically ended. We got kids a house and all the things we were supposed to do. We had everything but happiness.

 

I got counseling and by advice started to talk to my wife at the time about us meeting and our marriage from my perspective and what I wanted.

 

Rather than participate she got very angry at me. I'm not going to say I was the best at talking about these things but in retrospect I don't think it really mattered.

 

I wanted more in life and she was content where we were. She was stuck. We battled it out literally for a year then got an ugly horrible divorce. She really dug in and wasn't going to budge.

 

I lost everything and had to live in a bording house with what I could carry in my car.

 

I'm in a better place now and it was worth it. But I went through 6 years of darkness getting here.

 

It's your life ultimately and if you want more you should have it. But give her first right of refusal. Give her a chance to catch up with you.

 

My former wife refused to catch up and instead made my life a living hell. I had hoped for a different outcome.

 

You need to talk with your wife and let her see your vision. It's such a short life we live! In you talking with her, she might see the way to tell you hers.

 

You have good times. You have kids. You've got stuff to build something great.

 

Take a chance.

 

If it doesn't work out the way you want, you can always pick up the peices and endeavor onward.

 

But like another poster said, make sure you take care of you. If you eventually get a new life like I did, you'll be much better prepared to find the right life for you with someone who equally wants to share it with you.

 

Right now you got someone at home who may be thinking the same thoughts you are.

 

It's time to try to reconnect with her. You both may be surprised!!

 

Good luck and be brave!

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Honestly the only thing I really wanted out of marriage was to not feel like an inept loser when it came to women like I felt my entire singlehood - except for a brief reprieve in college - but that hasn't happened. The few women who would date me always had one foot out the door from the get-go. When I met my wife, the attraction imbalance was the other way - a first for me. Her weight had me conflicted about how I'd be thought of by others - of course, this is silly in the long run but we all see how so many young single guys on LS seem to act like any overweight woman has cooties. However, I was miserable after a long dry spell and I figured I had to give things a chance. Now, it's been a 20+ year marriage with kids and the whole white-picket-fence nine yards.

 

We have a lot of great things going for long-term compatibility. We enjoy each other's company, make each other laugh, really LIKE each other. I feel like I live the mirror image of most people - the compatibility stuff is easy but the physical intimacy part is a struggle even though I don't think of her platonically.

 

I did get over the weight thing but it robbed me of a honeymoon period. The weird thing is that while she is the one who is more invested/attracted, that intensity has never carried over into the bedroom. She's always had a lot of inhibitedness, insecurity, and lacked variety - no oral (giving or receiving) and not even any face-to-face positions where I can see a full view of her. All this when our relationship has been as solid as a rock. I don't think she dislikes sex or is intentionally withholding - it's more like she's simply not not-interested. I can't help but think that if I had had more experience or otherwise been better at attracting women, I would have ended up with someone more sexual or at least know how to bring out some openness in my wife.

 

Anyway, this all adds up to me feeling like the same inept loser with women that I've felt like since I was a teenager. How can I break out of this and generate some self-confidence and esteem without some sort of external validation? Cheating doesn't seem like a good idea - I'm sure I wouldn't have the guts or know-how to go through with it, anyway. I've never even been flirted with - probably the only married guy anyone on LS knows who hasn't been.

 

 

I don't know if this will help or not, and I could be completely wrong. Please forgive my assumptions if I am.

 

You having more sexual experience may not help her because her lack of sexual openness may not be about you.

 

She may well have been teased a lot about her weight and appearance, and even you note yourself the negative reaction overweight women tend to get from men ( not judging, just making a statement). women are often judged on their looks- otherwise, there wouldn't be aisles and aisles of hair care, skin care, push-up bras, hair salons, etc.. What's the first thing many guys ( and woman too) think about a woman who is overweight? " Wow, she must be one smart lady" or" wow, she has a beautiful smile" . No matter how good at her job, ow pretty she may be, or if she is actually indecent shape and can run circles around them some people will still think of her in a negative light. She's seen as fat,slob, lazy, dumb, ugly, etc. by some people.

 

That can really damage a woman's self esteem, and that is closely tied to her sexuality. She might have been teased or even bullied about it wen she was younger, and before she met you, she may have endured a lot of negative comments from men. this may have brought her self esteem really low, even if she doesn't tend to show it.

 

If I am right ( and I could be completely wrong) I'm not really sue what you can do about that. It sounds like you try and make her feel beautiful, but that part of her that feels incredibly aft and ugly, like no man would ever want her, may still be there.

 

In some ways, it sounds like you might have similar negative feelings about yourself,which is too bad. I expect you actually have a lot to offer, and it also sounds like you are very pragmatic and are not afraid of introspection. I greatly admire that. I'd take a guy like you over some muscle bound jackass who has nothing more going for him than his appearance and can barely manage to grunt a response when you ask him a question any day of the week.

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GoodOnPaper
I personally think it's a bad idea getting married before going through a period of pushing boundaries in dating.

 

It really changes you. I'm not the same guy I was 10 years back at all. In terms of personal growth, I would be a completely different person.

 

You never "sowed your wild oats" as it were.

 

Thanks for replying. Part of my problem was that because my parents married at 19, I thought that when I graduated from college with no LTR, I was past my prime and that things could only go downhill.

 

When I was single, my life felt completely empty. Now, I wish I had more time for my hobbies, interests, and work. I've posted before that if I had had 1/10th the interests and hobbies when I was single that I do now, my singlehood would not have been the bail-out-the-ship-as-fast-as-I-can experience that it was.

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GoodOnPaper
She may well have been teased a lot about her weight and appearance, and even you note yourself the negative reaction overweight women tend to get from men ( not judging, just making a statement).

 

I know her parents inflicted some serious emotional wounds - they told her no one would love her if she was fat. Add that to the fact that, like me, she is very "nice", it's just not easy.

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GoodOnPaper
My first marriage was similar. We got married early with neither of us doing much with anyone else. It wasn't bad at the beginning. I thought it was a great marriage.

 

But she and I didn't take care of ourselves and the sex practically ended. We got kids a house and all the things we were supposed to do. We had everything but happiness.

 

I got counseling and by advice started to talk to my wife at the time about us meeting and our marriage from my perspective and what I wanted.

 

Rather than participate she got very angry at me. I'm not going to say I was the best at talking about these things but in retrospect I don't think it really mattered.

 

I wanted more in life and she was content where we were. She was stuck. We battled it out literally for a year then got an ugly horrible divorce. She really dug in and wasn't going to budge.

 

I lost everything and had to live in a bording house with what I could carry in my car.

 

I'm in a better place now and it was worth it. But I went through 6 years of darkness getting here.

 

It's your life ultimately and if you want more you should have it. But give her first right of refusal. Give her a chance to catch up with you.

 

My former wife refused to catch up and instead made my life a living hell. I had hoped for a different outcome.

 

You need to talk with your wife and let her see your vision. It's such a short life we live! In you talking with her, she might see the way to tell you hers.

 

You have good times. You have kids. You've got stuff to build something great.

 

Take a chance.

 

If it doesn't work out the way you want, you can always pick up the peices and endeavor onward.

 

But like another poster said, make sure you take care of you. If you eventually get a new life like I did, you'll be much better prepared to find the right life for you with someone who equally wants to share it with you.

 

Right now you got someone at home who may be thinking the same thoughts you are.

 

It's time to try to reconnect with her. You both may be surprised!!

 

Good luck and be brave!

 

Thanks for replying. I'm sorry about how your marriage ended - it sounds like you two ended up in an adversarial relationship. At least I don't feel we are at that point.

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Thanks for replying. Part of my problem was that because my parents married at 19, I thought that when I graduated from college with no LTR, I was past my prime and that things could only go downhill.

 

When I was single, my life felt completely empty. Now, I wish I had more time for my hobbies, interests, and work. I've posted before that if I had had 1/10th the interests and hobbies when I was single that I do now, my singlehood would not have been the bail-out-the-ship-as-fast-as-I-can experience that it was.

 

No worries. I find it an interesting discussion, and I appreciate your candidness.

 

Truth is that I can't see how you even knew what you were committing to, without experience?

 

I had some hilariously stupid views as a teenager, that were completely dashed by early experience. Views that are frankly embarrassing to even remember :laugh:

 

Could have been married a handful of times by now, but I don't even see how I could have handled it at all without figuring life out a bit first. So, I actually consider it like you jumped right into the deep end, really.

 

One of the great things about dating is that you can take risks and experiment, with not much at stake. I have very much taken advantage of that freedom. That must be difficult within the boundaries of wife and family?

 

Going to have to grow and change whilst taking her in the direction with you. Much like JHandy alludes to. Have a vision and lead it.

 

My sexuality and image is no longer tied to my wife or other women - I own it - I am my own fuel. You can as well.

 

This sounds like growing apart to me.

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I know her parents inflicted some serious emotional wounds - they told her no one would love her if she was fat. Add that to the fact that, like me, she is very "nice", it's just not easy.

 

How "fat" are we talking about here? If she's just "normal overweight", I really don't see any issues at her age (realistically, the average woman in the US is overweight anyway). But if she's obese, why don't you encourage her to lose some weight just for her health?

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Have you ever thought about going to a naturist resort with her? I'm a little overweight and belong to a naturist club, it's really helped me to accept my body, there are all body types there and people accept each other for who they are not what they look like. People are respectful and welcoming.

 

You sound pretty conservative, so maybe you find the idea horrific. Lol! But I thought I'd throw it out there in case!

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Reading your opening post again, I think your wife's "sexual boredom" may have more to do with your lack of attraction and desire for her. Women feel sexy when they feel desired, especially by the man they love. I'm sure her insecurity about her body can easily go away if she believes you desperately want her, despite the inevitable imperfections of her body. Would you be able to be more dominant and take the lead?

 

Unfortunately, it sounds like you're insecure yourself and you also need her to make the move...

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GoodOnPaper
Have you ever thought about going to a naturist resort with her? I'm a little overweight and belong to a naturist club, it's really helped me to accept my body, there are all body types there and people accept each other for who they are not what they look like. People are respectful and welcoming.

 

You sound pretty conservative, so maybe you find the idea horrific. Lol! But I thought I'd throw it out there in case!

 

I don't think it's a horrific idea at all. If I'm conservative, it's because of my own lack of experience and self-acceptance.

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GoodOnPaper
How "fat" are we talking about here? If she's just "normal overweight", I really don't see any issues at her age (realistically, the average woman in the US is overweight anyway). But if she's obese, why don't you encourage her to lose some weight just for her health?

 

Her weight has cycled back and forth several times between about 160 and 280 lbs. When we met, she was in the middle of that range. She's currently at the high end. My own health has cycled back and forth, too. Three years ago I was in the best shape of my life. Now, not so much. Combination of crazy kids' activity schedules, my burning the career candle at too many ends, and pre-menopausal hormone issues for her. We'll start to get things turned around.

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Reading your opening post again, I think your wife's "sexual boredom" may have more to do with your lack of attraction and desire for her. Women feel sexy when they feel desired, especially by the man they love. I'm sure her insecurity about her body can easily go away if she believes you desperately want her, despite the inevitable imperfections of her body. Would you be able to be more dominant and take the lead?

 

Unfortunately, it sounds like you're insecure yourself and you also need her to make the move...

 

Yup, this is a big part of it I'd guess. There's a complex push/pull that goes on between women and men in a LTR and it's difficult to understand for anyone, especially when you've had negative experiences in the past. Simply put, women like the power to say "No". They want to be chased. They want you to lead and pursue. It makes them feel desired and sexy, and it's part of the dance.

 

I made a huge mistake years ago with my wife, after another rejection, I threw up my hands (not literally, but emotionally) and said to myself "Fine, I want sex all the time, she only wants it some of the the time, I'll wait for her to make the move". Let me grade that for you on the scale of stupid. Very high. It tore our relationship apart, eventually led to an affair, and nearly destroyed our marriage. She no longer felt I loved her because I'd stopped pursuing her. And it spiraled out of control quickly; even though, I did it with the best intentions (stop bugging her for sex, let her feel more comfortable with sex, etc). It's not what most women want, and it does make them feel unattractive and unwanted.

 

I know. It doesn't make sense to me either. Stop trying to make it make sense and just accept it as "it's the way it is".

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Her weight has cycled back and forth several times between about 160 and 280 lbs. When we met, she was in the middle of that range. She's currently at the high end. My own health has cycled back and forth, too. Three years ago I was in the best shape of my life. Now, not so much. Combination of crazy kids' activity schedules, my burning the career candle at too many ends, and pre-menopausal hormone issues for her. We'll start to get things turned around.

 

Not trying to hurt feelings; but... This is a major problem. Close to 300 is a serious enough problem for a woman that drastic measures are called for; this kind of weight is deadly, this, while perhaps not the crux of your problem, is going to cause serious problems in your lives together. You need to work on the stuff I just posted about, but you also need to help her with this issue. This is so heavy that it's no longer "your need a Barbie and your an *******", it's "She's going to die or miss out on most of her life because of her weight". A suspect a whole lot of things that are "wrong" in your relationship come back to weight/health (perhaps even this sexual issue).

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Reading your opening post again, I think your wife's "sexual boredom" may have more to do with your lack of attraction and desire for her. Women feel sexy when they feel desired, especially by the man they love. I'm sure her insecurity about her body can easily go away if she believes you desperately want her, despite the inevitable imperfections of her body. Would you be able to be more dominant and take the lead?

 

Unfortunately, it sounds like you're insecure yourself and you also need her to make the move...

 

Through LS I've heard of "responsive desire". Unfortunately, my singlehood experience deeply ingrained in me the notion that the more I expressed interest and desire, the less interested the girl would be in me. To compound that, my wife told me that the fact that I wasn't fawning all over her actually enhanced her attraction to me in the beginning. So apparently the PUA hard-to-get tactic does work, except that I wasn't playing any kind of tactic. How do I shift gears from that to all-out head-over-heels reckless abandon?

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xenawarriorprincess
"She's always had a lot of inhibitedness, insecurity, and lacked variety - no oral (giving or receiving) and not even any face-to-face positions where I can see a full view of her. All this when our relationship has been as solid as a rock."

 

So whats new? Changed?You married into this right?

 

 

I am very much in agreement that “what you see is what you get” and that the actions of a potential partner cannot be expected to change after saying “I do”. We should not expect or try to alter a person into what we want them to be, we should either accept them or find someone else who will better fit our needs. However…..I do not like that this sentiment is the end all be all, as if simply because we married into it that there is no room for compromise. If he wants to try something new, it won’t kill her to try it. It doesn’t have to be the standard, but an honest genuine attempt at trying to connect with her husband and meet his needs is called compromise and it might be enough to satisfy his need for connection and validation. She might like it, but if not then at least she tried.

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Her weight has cycled back and forth several times between about 160 and 280 lbs. When we met, she was in the middle of that range. She's currently at the high end. My own health has cycled back and forth, too. Three years ago I was in the best shape of my life. Now, not so much. Combination of crazy kids' activity schedules, my burning the career candle at too many ends, and pre-menopausal hormone issues for her. We'll start to get things turned around.

 

Okay she's clearly in the obese range now. I assume her health is not in the best shape currently and her annual physical results show? I would encourage her to lose weight just for her health as a long term goal. I think simply cutting down on bad fats and bad carbs is going to go a long way. There is no need to go on a drastic diet; rather, consistency in the key. My observation from my female friends is that those who have always been (clearly) overweight or obese tend to have different eating styles: They tend to make it a habit of eating bad foods and tend to not like healthy foods.

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Through LS I've heard of "responsive desire". Unfortunately, my singlehood experience deeply ingrained in me the notion that the more I expressed interest and desire, the less interested the girl would be in me. To compound that, my wife told me that the fact that I wasn't fawning all over her actually enhanced her attraction to me in the beginning. So apparently the PUA hard-to-get tactic does work, except that I wasn't playing any kind of tactic. How do I shift gears from that to all-out head-over-heels reckless abandon?

 

There is a big difference between "fawning" all over her and expressing desire and passion.

Fawning all over her IS a turn off, as is constant demands for sex, or whining or sulking - but pure raw honest passion is gold.

 

fawn - (of a person) give a servile display of exaggerated flattery or affection, typically in order to gain favour.
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To compound that, my wife told me that the fact that I wasn't fawning all over her actually enhanced her attraction to me in the beginning.

 

This doesn't quite make sense for someone who has had trouble attracting guys due to her weight (according to your description), tbh.

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