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With time, love evolves from a feeling to an action - discuss!


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Hi all

 

I recently passed the 1000 post mark! I imagine us all in a big hall at an "Affairs Anonymous" meeting. I go up to the stage to receive my 1000 posts gold medal and I say "Hi, my name is Jenkins and I'm a former affair addict. I have been clean for nearly two years and have reached over 1000 posts." I would then retire to my seat to a warm round of applause, and the next person would step up ;)

 

Anyway!!!

 

I would like to mark the occasion by starting my first thread for a very long time, and I would like us to discuss the sentence in the subject line: "With time, love evolves from being a feeling to being an action."

 

I have seen this sentiment trotted out in many articles and support forums and I have mixed feelings about it. At first, it seems to bring comfort, resolve and direction to spouses in difficult positons in their marriages - perhaps they were the victim of an affair and are unsure if they can love their WS again, perhaps they HAD an affair and are unsure about their feelings for their W vs their OW (I will write from a male perspective, but please reverse this if appropriate), perhaps there is no infidelity, but the spouses have grown apart, become bored and on the verge of uttering the dreaded ILYBIANILWY.

 

For the poor souls in these situations, the idea that love should be an action rather than a feeling appears to present them with an instant fix with the emphasis being on behaviour rather than feelings. "Great, all I have to do is 'actively' love my spouse, keep going and acting the right way, doing the right things and everything will be ok". I remember myself at the end of the A, I had residual feelings for the OW for a while and was in torment. When I first learned of this approach, it gave me comfort and a clear direction for the path ahead.

 

But actually, there is something inherently dissatisfying with this message. Apart from anything else, it is extremely unromantic as it takes feelings completely out of the equation! But more than that, one can reach quite disturbing conclusions by extending the argument a little bit. After all, if it was this easy, we could choose almost anyone, even a random stranger, and as long as we "actively" love them, then we can build a successful relationship with them. It just doesn't sit right somehow!

 

On much reflection, I feel that mature true love should actually be a true mix of both feelings and actions. When I met my wife, I was crazy about her, she could do no wrong, she was "heaven sent" as far as I was concerned, she had no faults, she was perfect, I could not get enough of her. Later, I would experience similar feelings with the OW, but I won't go down that path in this post. The point is, that kind of mad love doesn't nor should it last forever and we have all read the articles and posts that say that this kind of crazy in-love stage (which some may call infatuation or limerence) rarely lasts more than a couple of years and evolves naturally into the subsequent relationship stages. But surely this doesn't mean that "feelings" become irrelevant!

 

Once past infatuation, feelings become more settled based on our experiences with our partner - getting used to them, finding out that they do indeed have faults, getting past the "new" stage, having arguments, etc. But, SOME level of warm, fuzzy feelings should still be there of course, and any loss of intensity is now replaced by an increased sense of stability, shared history and responsibilities, plans, support, life, eventually children etc. It may no longer be true that the spouses cannot bear to be apart and when together, cannot keep their hands off each other, but these feelings become replaced with more mature "grown up" equivalents, which will include simpler actions such as a cuddle after work and telling each other all the things we did during the day. Sex may become a weekly occurrence rather than a several times daily activity! It may not make for Hollywood movies, but this level of connection is delightful in its own right.

 

But once past infatuation, we need to be vigilant and the phrase "marriage takes a lot of work" comes in. This is where love becomes an action. We need to actively put our spouses first, consider them at all times, respect boundaries, not be selfish. Love becomes an action...but to me, it should still be a feeling too - forever.

 

And all this demonstrates how dreadfully damaging having an affair is to all involved parties. Suddenly, the WS is propelled back to limerence again. Possibly decades after he experienced this with his wife, the WH may forget that he ever felt this before and is tempted to re-write history. The intensity, excitement and constant hormonal rush seems so much more than what he experiences in his marriage. Without really knowing what's going on at a biological level, you can see why people throw away good marriages based on fantasies and biological instincts.

 

Anyway guys, just some food for thought. Please contribute if you can.

 

And let me take this opportunity to thank all you amazing members out there. LS has been and continues to be an immense support to me and you are very special people. Thank you

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Hi all

 

I recently passed the 1000 post mark! I imagine us all in a big hall at an "Affairs Anonymous" meeting. I go up to the stage to receive my 1000 posts gold medal and I say "Hi, my name is Jenkins and I'm a former affair addict. I have been clean for nearly two years and have reached over 1000 posts." I would then retire to my seat to a warm round of applause, and the next person would step up ;)

 

Anyway!!!

 

I would like to mark the occasion by starting my first thread for a very long time, and I would like us to discuss the sentence in the subject line: "With time, love evolves from being a feeling to being an action."

 

I have seen this sentiment trotted out in many articles and support forums and I have mixed feelings about it. At first, it seems to bring comfort, resolve and direction to spouses in difficult positons in their marriages - perhaps they were the victim of an affair and are unsure if they can love their WS again, perhaps they HAD an affair and are unsure about their feelings for their W vs their OW (I will write from a male perspective, but please reverse this if appropriate), perhaps there is no infidelity, but the spouses have grown apart, become bored and on the verge of uttering the dreaded ILYBIANILWY.

 

For the poor souls in these situations, the idea that love should be an action rather than a feeling appears to present them with an instant fix with the emphasis being on behaviour rather than feelings. "Great, all I have to do is 'actively' love my spouse, keep going and acting the right way, doing the right things and everything will be ok". I remember myself at the end of the A, I had residual feelings for the OW for a while and was in torment. When I first learned of this approach, it gave me comfort and a clear direction for the path ahead.

 

But actually, there is something inherently dissatisfying with this message. Apart from anything else, it is extremely unromantic as it takes feelings completely out of the equation! But more than that, one can reach quite disturbing conclusions by extending the argument a little bit. After all, if it was this easy, we could choose almost anyone, even a random stranger, and as long as we "actively" love them, then we can build a successful relationship with them. It just doesn't sit right somehow!

 

On much reflection, I feel that mature true love should actually be a true mix of both feelings and actions. When I met my wife, I was crazy about her, she could do no wrong, she was "heaven sent" as far as I was concerned, she had no faults, she was perfect, I could not get enough of her. Later, I would experience similar feelings with the OW, but I won't go down that path in this post. The point is, that kind of mad love doesn't nor should it last forever and we have all read the articles and posts that say that this kind of crazy in-love stage (which some may call infatuation or limerence) rarely lasts more than a couple of years and evolves naturally into the subsequent relationship stages. But surely this doesn't mean that "feelings" become irrelevant!

 

Once past infatuation, feelings become more settled based on our experiences with our partner - getting used to them, finding out that they do indeed have faults, getting past the "new" stage, having arguments, etc. But, SOME level of warm, fuzzy feelings should still be there of course, and any loss of intensity is now replaced by an increased sense of stability, shared history and responsibilities, plans, support, life, eventually children etc. It may no longer be true that the spouses cannot bear to be apart and when together, cannot keep their hands off each other, but these feelings become replaced with more mature "grown up" equivalents, which will include simpler actions such as a cuddle after work and telling each other all the things we did during the day. Sex may become a weekly occurrence rather than a several times daily activity! It may not make for Hollywood movies, but this level of connection is delightful in its own right.

 

But once past infatuation, we need to be vigilant and the phrase "marriage takes a lot of work" comes in. This is where love becomes an action. We need to actively put our spouses first, consider them at all times, respect boundaries, not be selfish. Love becomes an action...but to me, it should still be a feeling too - forever.

 

And all this demonstrates how dreadfully damaging having an affair is to all involved parties. Suddenly, the WS is propelled back to limerence again. Possibly decades after he experienced this with his wife, the WH may forget that he ever felt this before and is tempted to re-write history. The intensity, excitement and constant hormonal rush seems so much more than what he experiences in his marriage. Without really knowing what's going on at a biological level, you can see why people throw away good marriages based on fantasies and biological instincts.

 

Anyway guys, just some food for thought. Please contribute if you can.

 

And let me take this opportunity to thank all you amazing members out there. LS has been and continues to be an immense support to me and you are very special people. Thank you

 

What you say makes a lot of sense.

 

I've been married just shy of 20 years ( our anniversary is in august) and over that time, we've sure had our ups and downs. The thing si that no matter how far apart we felt on the surface, underneath all of that, the "warm and fuzzies" were still there.

 

On a side note, I find actions more meaningful than words. It's something I've learned form my son ( one of many lessons). He's not very verbal, and in the whole of his 14 plus years, he's never said " I love you mom" , not even when he was little.

He prefers actions instead of words, and I do to

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ClassyTaste

This is completely rational if all marriages consisted of that balance. There may be other factors involved as well. Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward were affair partners and left partners and were married 50 years. Should they have not married? Affairs are terrible and life is messy. It is difficult to place all tightly in one box. Some relationships never lose infatuation and passion.

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My daddy told me and my DH in pre-wedding counseling "Love is not a feeling. It is a commitment." The infatuation at the beginning of a relationship does not last forever. Real life hits you. Financial problems, kid problems, jobs, loss of loved ones, addiction, depression, true tragedy. There are times you don't even like yourself let alone your spouse; and in those times the commitment has to kick in. To make you stay, and be loyal even if your not "feeling" it.

 

 

One of my fave quotes on marriage is:

"A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, but always with the same person."

 

 

And it is so true. My DH & I have been together 20 years and we have had the highest of highs and some pretty low points too. But there will be no one else for me. I am committed to him. He is my best friend & I will fight for him even when he has no fight left in him. I will protect him & I will honor him but I won't always FEEL those warm and fuzzies. I have learned though they always do return eventually.

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Hi,

 

My name is Rudder, I'm a FOW/WW, affair free since last year and 317 posts. :)

 

I logged on just to post on this because I finished reading Road Less Traveled by Peck last night. Between that,the triangular theory of love and few other relationship books (5 Languages, Not Just Friends, Passionate Marriage, Ethical Slut, Sex at Dawn, His/Her Needs) I think I've found my answers and developed my thoughts, values, boundaries on relationships.

 

While Peck wasnt able to practice what he preached alot of what he said made sense to me and mirrors alot of what you say in how relationships develop. He speaks of cathexis, the 'falling in love' feelings and how people can have those feelings even for animals/objects, (for those who feel objectified in their relationships even while being told the words "I love you" this fits), and can be one way unreciprocated/unrequited and how the word "love" is woefully inadequate and misused for too many situations other than "true" love. The falling in love is (usually) a necessary stage though to bond with someone long enough to get to the mature love where we are more conscious of our partner, their flaws, etc and still choose/commit to being with them. The intense honeymoon phase will fade but as you and other poster said underneath the "warm fuzzies" can remain, there's still occasional passion. The cathexis and mature love can coexist, side by side which is ideal but not necessary for mature, or in his opinion "true" love. Committing without the in love stage is what some people choose to do though (arranged marriages) and they are still able to have a stable relationship based on that, or other marriages completely lose the "warm fuzzies"/cathexis regardless are are still content. Feelings and relationships dont always depend on one another. It's the actions that create the relationship.

 

 

The feelings are equally as important as actions IMO. If feelings are there, I think the actions or "the work" will perpetuate them. It takes work to consistently be conscientious of your partner in your daily decisions big and small, to constantly communicate your thoughts, feelings, desires and compromise and negotiate and be self aware of when they change and communicate them all over again. Being passive is what will lead to the erosion of trust and respect and kill the 'warm fuzzies' if they were there, or make an otherwise stable but passionless committed relationship unhealthy, even toxic.

 

The ideal or consummate love has passion, intimacy (the "connection", within several realms such as intellectual, recreational etc), as well as commitment. Any combination of one or two without the other components is a variation of lust, friendship, empty, romantic infatuation, etc. All three is "true" love to me.

 

I can try to find a link to the study, but they've proven that the feeling of being in love doesnt always go away. It may be more muted but they have found a significant number of long term couples who claimed to still be in love whose brain imagery matched.

 

Loving more than one person, loving at different stages is possible but it is difficult to sustain for most and without the components ANY healthy relationship requires (honesty, respect, trust, commitment) will become destructive and NOT loving in any sense at all.

 

Each person and relationship has its own beginning, dance, and end (one way or another). Its a matter of personal values and priorities.

 

My marriage didnt have the in-love stage (no, I didnt rewrite). It was that way on his side as well. We also couldnt grow into higher awareness of committing to the requirements for a passionless but committed healthy relationship. ExMM had the inlove stage with me, without maturing. He had the inlove stage with his wife and maturing stage. I think the warm fuzzies were still there underneath for him so he wanted to see about preserving that and/or be poly. I am not/couldnt. So now I hope to develop a healthy loving relationship from scratch starting with in love and developing that love through maturity with someone who understands the process and is committed to the same thing.

 

That may have covered a bit more than your original topic but love is complex!

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Love really isn't complicated. Selfish love is, what I mean by that is loving someone for what they offer instead of who they are.

 

Rudder, I think it will always be at best difficult to truly say there was no rewriting. It's like saying if I didn't by that car five years ago I would be a millionaire now. One you started going down that road it's natural to make comparisons, maybe you had more of it with MM than H. At any rate good to see you making progress.

 

Jenkins, that stuff you call mature love is the good stuff. Yet getting there than having it ripped away makes these situations so difficult. For my wife and I, because we grew up together, became codependency. Not healthy.

 

Great post, which I've grown to expect from you

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I would like to mark the occasion by starting my first thread for a very long time, and I would like us to discuss the sentence in the subject line: "With time, love evolves from being a feeling to being an action."

 

After all, if it was this easy, we could choose almost anyone, even a random stranger, and as long as we "actively" love them, then we can build a successful relationship with them. It just doesn't sit right somehow!

 

 

Well yes an no. A stranger - generally speaking I will not put their interests and well being above mine (well maybe for a brief moment). I will not compromise or sacrifice for a stranger in ways that might be of detriment to me. I will not suffer, nor endure difficult times for stranger. I will not engage in activities I really dont like much - just to make a stranger (or even acquaintance) happy. I will do these things for someone I love.

 

On the other hand - (as a dude) I do feel occasionally sexual or infatuation feelings (briefly) for strangers. For a acquaintances I might have feelings of fondness or even warmness.

 

Love is acting loving when you dont feel like it. Its putting the other ahead of yourself at times - when its to lift them up or help them.

 

If you have had kids - especially tweens and teens - you know you can absolute want to strangle them (really - slap them). The abuse these teens can hurl at you - horrible stuff. You feel anger....you want to scream and throw them out of the house. You can have nothing BUT negative feelings. This can go on for several years. But you still choose to act loving towards them. You continue to give and work hard to lift them up - even when they are calling you every name in the book. Thats love.

 

But you do make some good points...and long term loss of feelings is an issue for sure - hopefully its only months or a year at a time - but sometimes its years :(

Edited by dichotomy
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Hi,

 

My name is Rudder, I'm a FOW/WW, affair free since last year and 317 posts. :)

 

I logged on just to post on this because I finished reading Road Less Traveled by Peck last night. Between that,the triangular theory of love and few other relationship books (5 Languages, Not Just Friends, Passionate Marriage, Ethical Slut, Sex at Dawn, His/Her Needs) I think I've found my answers and developed my thoughts, values, boundaries on relationships.

 

While Peck wasnt able to practice what he preached alot of what he said made sense to me and mirrors alot of what you say in how relationships develop. He speaks of cathexis, the 'falling in love' feelings and how people can have those feelings even for animals/objects, (for those who feel objectified in their relationships even while being told the words "I love you" this fits), and can be one way unreciprocated/unrequited and how the word "love" is woefully inadequate and misused for too many situations other than "true" love. The falling in love is (usually) a necessary stage though to bond with someone long enough to get to the mature love where we are more conscious of our partner, their flaws, etc and still choose/commit to being with them. The intense honeymoon phase will fade but as you and other poster said underneath the "warm fuzzies" can remain, there's still occasional passion. The cathexis and mature love can coexist, side by side which is ideal but not necessary for mature, or in his opinion "true" love. Committing without the in love stage is what some people choose to do though (arranged marriages) and they are still able to have a stable relationship based on that, or other marriages completely lose the "warm fuzzies"/cathexis regardless are are still content. Feelings and relationships dont always depend on one another. It's the actions that create the relationship.

 

 

The feelings are equally as important as actions IMO. If feelings are there, I think the actions or "the work" will perpetuate them. It takes work to consistently be conscientious of your partner in your daily decisions big and small, to constantly communicate your thoughts, feelings, desires and compromise and negotiate and be self aware of when they change and communicate them all over again. Being passive is what will lead to the erosion of trust and respect and kill the 'warm fuzzies' if they were there, or make an otherwise stable but passionless committed relationship unhealthy, even toxic.

 

The ideal or consummate love has passion, intimacy (the "connection", within several realms such as intellectual, recreational etc), as well as commitment. Any combination of one or two without the other components is a variation of lust, friendship, empty, romantic infatuation, etc. All three is "true" love to me.

 

I can try to find a link to the study, but they've proven that the feeling of being in love doesnt always go away. It may be more muted but they have found a significant number of long term couples who claimed to still be in love whose brain imagery matched.

 

Loving more than one person, loving at different stages is possible but it is difficult to sustain for most and without the components ANY healthy relationship requires (honesty, respect, trust, commitment) will become destructive and NOT loving in any sense at all.

 

Each person and relationship has its own beginning, dance, and end (one way or another). Its a matter of personal values and priorities.

 

My marriage didnt have the in-love stage (no, I didnt rewrite). It was that way on his side as well. We also couldnt grow into higher awareness of committing to the requirements for a passionless but committed healthy relationship. ExMM had the inlove stage with me, without maturing. He had the inlove stage with his wife and maturing stage. I think the warm fuzzies were still there underneath for him so he wanted to see about preserving that and/or be poly. I am not/couldnt. So now I hope to develop a healthy loving relationship from scratch starting with in love and developing that love through maturity with someone who understands the process and is committed to the same thing.

 

That may have covered a bit more than your original topic but love is complex!

 

Good for you for working so hard on understanding what makes you tick and what you need in your life:). I have a feeling it will stand you in good stead.

 

You know the saying about making lemonade from lemons? It sounds like that's what you did. You saw an opportunity to grow, and you took it.

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Love really isn't complicated. Selfish love is, what I mean by that is loving someone for what they offer instead of who they are.

 

Rudder, I think it will always be at best difficult to truly say there was no rewriting. It's like saying if I didn't by that car five years ago I would be a millionaire now. One you started going down that road it's natural to make comparisons, maybe you had more of it with MM than H. At any rate good to see you making progress.

 

Jenkins, that stuff you call mature love is the good stuff. Yet getting there than having it ripped away makes these situations so difficult. For my wife and I, because we grew up together, became codependency. Not healthy.

 

Great post, which I've grown to expect from you

 

 

I feel like , in an awful lot of ways, my husband and I grew up together. he was more sheltered and had parents who, well, ever watch Everybody Loves Raymond? Ray's parents have nothing on my husband's.

 

I can only speak for us, but I don't feel like we're co-dependent. In fact, I'm more used to him being away than home. He's retiring next week ( thank goodness) and will be switching to a civilian job.

 

The poster above who noted how love is complicated sure hit the nail on the head...but maybe it doesn't have to be that way. If I cut through all the crap we've gone through, when I get right down to it, he is still the person I want to wake up with each morning.

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Love really isn't complicated. Selfish love is, what I mean by that is loving someone for what they offer instead of who they are.

 

Rudder, I think it will always be at best difficult to truly say there was no rewriting. It's like saying if I didn't by that car five years ago I would be a millionaire now. One you started going down that road it's natural to make comparisons, maybe you had more of it with MM than H. At any rate good to see you making progress.

 

Jenkins, that stuff you call mature love is the good stuff. Yet getting there than having it ripped away makes these situations so difficult. For my wife and I, because we grew up together, became codependency. Not healthy.

 

Great post, which I've grown to expect from you

 

DK, lets please agree to disagree on rewriting and whether or not you are the subject matter expert as it pertains to my situation. You are not my therapist you are not my exH you were not part of my courtship, wedding day or any part of my marriage or anything other than what I shared here during a very difficult time. Regardless of whether I rewrote or not, my M became unhealthy and was irreconcilable. My exH and I agree we are both now happier and healthier individuals. At any rate, I am not seeking comment on my M or D, I merely supplied personal experience to elaborate my response to OP.

 

In regards to love being complicated, perhaps its not. Perhaps its the pathologies of the human beings involved complicating the relationship vs the love.

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Great post Jenkins.

 

Married for 32 years and very much in love with my husband. ( right now)

 

I love what was quoted above about being willing to fall in love again and again but with the same person. This is really the truth.

 

I also believe " when you don't feel it, you will it." That's marriage.

 

So I am of the belief that it is both. Sometimes it is a feeling, sometimes it is an action, and sometimes both. I often laugh when I read the ILYBIANILWY. Heck, sometimes it wasn't even that. Somehow you have to be willing to find one another. Nothing is guaranteed in this journey is it?

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DK, lets please agree to disagree on rewriting and whether or not you are the subject matter expert as it pertains to my situation. You are not my therapist you are not my exH you were not part of my courtship, wedding day or any part of my marriage or anything other than what I shared here during a very difficult time. Regardless of whether I rewrote or not, my M became unhealthy and was irreconcilable. My exH and I agree we are both now happier and healthier individuals. At any rate, I am not seeking comment on my M or D, I merely supplied personal experience to elaborate my response to OP.

 

In regards to love being complicated, perhaps its not. Perhaps its the pathologies of the human beings involved complicating the relationship vs the love.

 

I'm just saying it's will never be something one can never truly separate.

 

I say love isn't complicated because it can be so pure. IE the way parents love children. Sure it's a different kind of bond, but an example of unselfish love. We don't stop loving them because they make us unhappy, get fat or lose a job. This kind of love is present in some marriages. Once you make a commitment to love it's a commitment. Losing the desire to be committed doesn't make love complicated.

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My daddy told me and my DH in pre-wedding counseling "Love is not a feeling. It is a commitment." The infatuation at the beginning of a relationship does not last forever. Real life hits you. Financial problems, kid problems, jobs, loss of loved ones, addiction, depression, true tragedy. There are times you don't even like yourself let alone your spouse; and in those times the commitment has to kick in. To make you stay, and be loyal even if your not "feeling" it.

 

 

One of my fave quotes on marriage is:

"A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, but always with the same person."

 

 

And it is so true. My DH & I have been together 20 years and we have had the highest of highs and some pretty low points too. But there will be no one else for me. I am committed to him. He is my best friend & I will fight for him even when he has no fight left in him. I will protect him & I will honor him but I won't always FEEL those warm and fuzzies. I have learned though they always do return eventually.

 

Brilliant replies guys! I couldn't get on the forums last night (not sure if they were down or it was just my bad internet connection), but I have been catching up this morning and have been delighted with the quality of the replies to this thread - please keep them coming!

 

I love this one from Globug. It is the same for my wife and I and we are building a whole new marriage now after I hurt her so badly. We sure as heck weren't feeling those warm and fuzzies on D-day or for a long time afterwards....but we are getting them back now. I have a surprise gift for my wife and I simply can't wait to get home tonight and (hopefully) see the look of delight on her face followed by a big cuddle!

 

Good luck Globug, that's an excellent, realistic and heart-warming post.

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Hi,

 

My name is Rudder, I'm a FOW/WW, affair free since last year and 317 posts. :)

 

 

[Enthusiastic round of applause from the whole group "Go Rudder"!!] ;)

 

Very interesting post and I will be Googling that stuff from Peck at lunchtime. Many thanks for sharing this wisdom Rudder.

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Love really isn't complicated. Selfish love is, what I mean by that is loving someone for what they offer instead of who they are.

 

Rudder, I think it will always be at best difficult to truly say there was no rewriting. It's like saying if I didn't by that car five years ago I would be a millionaire now. One you started going down that road it's natural to make comparisons, maybe you had more of it with MM than H. At any rate good to see you making progress.

 

Jenkins, that stuff you call mature love is the good stuff. Yet getting there than having it ripped away makes these situations so difficult. For my wife and I, because we grew up together, became codependency. Not healthy.

 

Great post, which I've grown to expect from you

 

Great post DKT3. And you've hit the nail on the head: -

 

"Selfish love" - that's what affairs represent.

 

In my affair, she made me feel like the most handsome, desirable, virile, interesting, fun man in the world...and I reciprocated. Constant compliments and ego strokes, sweet nothings, perpetual teenagers. While we got our egos massaged, our partners stayed in the dark, unaware of the damage being done to them. Yes, I felt love for the OW - the very definition of selfish love.

 

All I can do now is learn from it - and invest everything I have into that "mature" love again. Because it really is beautiful.

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Love is acting loving when you dont feel like it. Its putting the other ahead of yourself at times - when its to lift them up or help them.

 

If you have had kids..............you still choose to act loving towards them. You continue to give and work hard to lift them up - even when they are calling you every name in the book. Thats love.

 

.....long term loss of feelings is an issue for sure - hopefully its only months or a year at a time - but sometimes its years :(

 

Thanks for sharing your wisdom dichotomy. You make some great points.

 

I've read some of your recent posts and I see a lot of great stuff, but still a lot of residual hurt in there and some things that you would like to improve on in your M.

 

I'm pulling for you :)

 

Please keep posting

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I feel like , in an awful lot of ways, my husband and I grew up together. he was more sheltered and had parents who, well, ever watch Everybody Loves Raymond? Ray's parents have nothing on my husband's.

 

I can only speak for us, but I don't feel like we're co-dependent. In fact, I'm more used to him being away than home. He's retiring next week ( thank goodness) and will be switching to a civilian job.

 

The poster above who noted how love is complicated sure hit the nail on the head...but maybe it doesn't have to be that way. If I cut through all the crap we've gone through, when I get right down to it, he is still the person I want to wake up with each morning.

 

I'm so pleased to have you on this thread wmac. Any time your name appears on a thread, it adds weight to it, IMO!

 

I love the bolded bit. I was feeling exactly the same this morning and she shows me every day that she feels the same way!

 

All the very best for your upcoming big anniversary...and for your H's retirement. Presumably you guys will have lots more time together from now on then, right? It may take a bit of getting used to at first, but should ultimately be brilliant for your marriage!

 

All the very best of luck to you wmac!

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Great post Jenkins.

 

Married for 32 years and very much in love with my husband. ( right now)

 

I love what was quoted above about being willing to fall in love again and again but with the same person. This is really the truth.

 

I also believe " when you don't feel it, you will it." That's marriage.

 

So I am of the belief that it is both. Sometimes it is a feeling, sometimes it is an action, and sometimes both. I often laugh when I read the ILYBIANILWY. Heck, sometimes it wasn't even that. Somehow you have to be willing to find one another. Nothing is guaranteed in this journey is it?

 

Thanks Hecan and thanks for your great post!

 

I totally agree with what you've said. Indeed, the overall feeling in this thread so far is one of general agreement.

 

I always think, and have posted, that the old line ILYBIANILWY is an extremely lame and weak approach if used to end a relationship. It's a pathetic way of bypassing the real issues and just blaming one's feelings as if we have no control over them.

 

I mean, what do people expect from life and relationships? If they don't put the effort in, they are not going to get the results - or the feelings. Having an affair is an extremely cruel, selfish and innapropriate way of falsely filling yourself with these feelings again and convincing yourself that the M pales in comparison.

 

We can fall in...and out of love with the same person mutliple times depending on life circumstances. We just need to keep trying.

 

Of course, there are marriages that should genuinely end, no doubt about that, and despite my pro M, pro reconciliation stance, I completely disagree with couples just staying together out of sheer obligation, or "for the kids" when there's nothing really there - it must be hell, and we often see evidence of the damage this causes right here on LS.

 

But I can't help feeling that many people give up too easily these days. I think a lot, not all, but a lot of marriages that end, could have survived if the spouses had put the work in and not given up too easily.

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Thanks Hecan and thanks for your great post!

 

I totally agree with what you've said. Indeed, the overall feeling in this thread so far is one of general agreement.

 

I always think, and have posted, that the old line ILYBIANILWY is an extremely lame and weak approach if used to end a relationship. It's a pathetic way of bypassing the real issues and just blaming one's feelings as if we have no control over them.

 

I mean, what do people expect from life and relationships? If they don't put the effort in, they are not going to get the results - or the feelings. Having an affair is an extremely cruel, selfish and innapropriate way of falsely filling yourself with these feelings again and convincing yourself that the M pales in comparison.

 

We can fall in...and out of love with the same person mutliple times depending on life circumstances. We just need to keep trying.

 

Of course, there are marriages that should genuinely end, no doubt about that, and despite my pro M, pro reconciliation stance, I completely disagree with couples just staying together out of sheer obligation, or "for the kids" when there's nothing really there - it must be hell, and we often see evidence of the damage this causes right here on LS.

 

But I can't help feeling that many people give up too easily these days. I think a lot, not all, but a lot of marriages that end, could have survived if the spouses had put the work in and not given up too easily.

 

We was at a couples retreat, one of the speakers talked about the marriage yoyo. Imagine someone spinning a yo-yo in each hand each yo-yo has different highs and lows, but sometimes they meet in the same place, sometimes it's high. Unfortunately sometimes it's low.

 

Anyone in a long relationship knows this. There are times you would like nothing more than your spouse in the basement with duct tape over Thier mouth, other times when you can barely stand to be apart. Haha my wife told me a few weeks ago if she had on boxing gloves she would punch me in the mouth, yesterday she was like a backpack all day long she had a leg or an arm wrapped around me. Such is marriage.:)

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We was at a couples retreat, one of the speakers talked about the marriage yoyo. Imagine someone spinning a yo-yo in each hand each yo-yo has different highs and lows, but sometimes they meet in the same place, sometimes it's high. Unfortunately sometimes it's low.

 

Anyone in a long relationship knows this. There are times you would like nothing more than your spouse in the basement with duct tape over Thier mouth, other times when you can barely stand to be apart. Haha my wife told me a few weeks ago if she had on boxing gloves she would punch me in the mouth, yesterday she was like a backpack all day long she had a leg or an arm wrapped around me. Such is marriage.:)

 

Really good post DKT3 - the bolded bit really put a smile on my face! We've all been there haven't we?! Here's to more of the backpack type days (great analogy) and less of the boxing glove days!! ;)

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Wow! Very insightful. I can tell you’ve endured a lot, both emotionally and spiritually, and you have the scars to show it.

 

I recently read an article about preserving romance in marriages. The gist of the article compared marriage to a house with four kinds of love that can be thought of as representing the basic components of the structure. If one of these components is missing, the house is incomplete.

 

1. Unconditional love. This is the foundation of the house. It's the kind of love that gives without expecting anything in return.

2. Companionship love. This is the frame of the house. Open communication, shared activities, laughter, and even tears provide the structured living space within which a couple's love can be nurtured and grow.

3. Romantic love is the roof because this kind of love is a "peak" experience. It's supported by the first two loves; without them it has no way to sustain itself. Romantic love is a direct response to and celebration of the qualities of the loved one - beauty, charm, strength, tenderness.

4. Sexual love is represented by the furniture and décor. It is the physical union between husband and wife that is consummated only after the marriage has been sealed.

 

I think this falls in line with what you have posted. Thanks again for sharing your post.

 

Thanks for this LookUp. That it interesting stuff. If you can find the article's page link, please paste it here! :)

 

And yes, I do carry a few scars. They have healed and faded a bit, but I guess I'll carry them forever and the same can probably be said for many of our members here!

Edited by jenkins95
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Southern Sun

 

I would like to mark the occasion by starting my first thread for a very long time, and I would like us to discuss the sentence in the subject line: "With time, love evolves from being a feeling to being an action."

 

I have seen this sentiment trotted out in many articles and support forums and I have mixed feelings about it. At first, it seems to bring comfort, resolve and direction to spouses in difficult positons in their marriages - perhaps they were the victim of an affair and are unsure if they can love their WS again, perhaps they HAD an affair and are unsure about their feelings for their W vs their OW (I will write from a male perspective, but please reverse this if appropriate), perhaps there is no infidelity, but the spouses have grown apart, become bored and on the verge of uttering the dreaded ILYBIANILWY.

 

For the poor souls in these situations, the idea that love should be an action rather than a feeling appears to present them with an instant fix with the emphasis being on behaviour rather than feelings. "Great, all I have to do is 'actively' love my spouse, keep going and acting the right way, doing the right things and everything will be ok". I remember myself at the end of the A, I had residual feelings for the OW for a while and was in torment. When I first learned of this approach, it gave me comfort and a clear direction for the path ahead.

 

But actually, there is something inherently dissatisfying with this message. Apart from anything else, it is extremely unromantic as it takes feelings completely out of the equation! But more than that, one can reach quite disturbing conclusions by extending the argument a little bit. After all, if it was this easy, we could choose almost anyone, even a random stranger, and as long as we "actively" love them, then we can build a successful relationship with them. It just doesn't sit right somehow!

 

On much reflection, I feel that mature true love should actually be a true mix of both feelings and actions. When I met my wife, I was crazy about her, she could do no wrong, she was "heaven sent" as far as I was concerned, she had no faults, she was perfect, I could not get enough of her. Later, I would experience similar feelings with the OW, but I won't go down that path in this post. The point is, that kind of mad love doesn't nor should it last forever and we have all read the articles and posts that say that this kind of crazy in-love stage (which some may call infatuation or limerence) rarely lasts more than a couple of years and evolves naturally into the subsequent relationship stages. But surely this doesn't mean that "feelings" become irrelevant!

 

...

 

But once past infatuation, we need to be vigilant and the phrase "marriage takes a lot of work" comes in. This is where love becomes an action. We need to actively put our spouses first, consider them at all times, respect boundaries, not be selfish. Love becomes an action...but to me, it should still be a feeling too - forever.

 

And all this demonstrates how dreadfully damaging having an affair is to all involved parties. Suddenly, the WS is propelled back to limerence again. Possibly decades after he experienced this with his wife, the WH may forget that he ever felt this before and is tempted to re-write history. The intensity, excitement and constant hormonal rush seems so much more than what he experiences in his marriage. Without really knowing what's going on at a biological level, you can see why people throw away good marriages based on fantasies and biological instincts.

 

...

 

 

I wanted to take a shot at this, Jenkins.

 

I, too, agree that it takes a combination of action and feelings.

 

I think the primary problem that occurs in an affair is that the WS begins to remove FIRST their active love from their marriage. THEN their feelings follow.

 

Have you ever heard that it is not so much that waywards are not getting enough from the marriage, but that they are not GIVING enough?

 

I think this is true. At a certain point, a person who ends up in an affair withdraws their affections. They withdraw their active love. Some people will claim that their feelings went first. That various problems existed within the M to cause diminished loving feelings. That may be true for some. However I believe in my case, I mostly began to behave in ways that created less overall investment in my relationship, and then my feelings followed. Actions and feelings are very much intertwined.

 

When you are in the throes of infatuation with a person, it does not feel like "work." You are actually doing loving actions, but it doesn't really feel like it because you have such intense feelings. You don't feel like you are having to be selfless because it's what you WANT to do. You want to merge with that person. Whether when you were first falling for your wife, or if you've gotten yourself entangled in an affair, you are performing loving actions as well and the feelings are big. They are intertwined.

 

As the chemical rush begins to naturally falter, if you've not been taught about compromise and selfless loving, you might not get past this phase to the next. You might not understand that continued loving action is the key to maintaining the "warm and fuzzies" (though at a somewhat reduced level).

 

If you do understand that concept and continue to "love" each other well (in action), then the feelings are maintained, in whatever kind of relationship you are in. When loving actions are withdrawn, typically it is the person who withdraws them who "falls out of love" first.

 

The point is, you get out what you put in. You talk about the "comfort" you get from this sentiment, that love is an action rather than feelings when you are trying to get over an AP and recommit to your M. But then of course that begins to feel untrue, because then you could love anyone, right? I think the point is, both must exist. Affairs are destructive, because we removed our loving actions and invested them in another person. But because we felt loving feelings for our spouses previously, those feelings can be recovered by re-investing our actions in our spouses again. There may be an initial period of emptiness, but it's rewarded later.

 

I don't believe you can behave lovingly towards just anyone and find yourself in love with them.

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I wanted to take a shot at this, Jenkins.

 

I, too, agree that it takes a combination of action and feelings.

 

I think the primary problem that occurs in an affair is that the WS begins to remove FIRST their active love from their marriage. THEN their feelings follow.

 

Have you ever heard that it is not so much that waywards are not getting enough from the marriage, but that they are not GIVING enough?

 

I think this is true. At a certain point, a person who ends up in an affair withdraws their affections. They withdraw their active love. Some people will claim that their feelings went first. That various problems existed within the M to cause diminished loving feelings. That may be true for some. However I believe in my case, I mostly began to behave in ways that created less overall investment in my relationship, and then my feelings followed. Actions and feelings are very much intertwined.

 

When you are in the throes of infatuation with a person, it does not feel like "work." You are actually doing loving actions, but it doesn't really feel like it because you have such intense feelings. You don't feel like you are having to be selfless because it's what you WANT to do. You want to merge with that person. Whether when you were first falling for your wife, or if you've gotten yourself entangled in an affair, you are performing loving actions as well and the feelings are big. They are intertwined.

 

As the chemical rush begins to naturally falter, if you've not been taught about compromise and selfless loving, you might not get past this phase to the next. You might not understand that continued loving action is the key to maintaining the "warm and fuzzies" (though at a somewhat reduced level).

 

If you do understand that concept and continue to "love" each other well (in action), then the feelings are maintained, in whatever kind of relationship you are in. When loving actions are withdrawn, typically it is the person who withdraws them who "falls out of love" first.

 

The point is, you get out what you put in. You talk about the "comfort" you get from this sentiment, that love is an action rather than feelings when you are trying to get over an AP and recommit to your M. But then of course that begins to feel untrue, because then you could love anyone, right? I think the point is, both must exist. Affairs are destructive, because we removed our loving actions and invested them in another person. But because we felt loving feelings for our spouses previously, those feelings can be recovered by re-investing our actions in our spouses again. There may be an initial period of emptiness, but it's rewarded later.

 

I don't believe you can behave lovingly towards just anyone and find yourself in love with them.

 

Thank you so much for this SS. I have read it four times already and will study it more. It makes a lot of sense, and I think that you and I come from very similar places (except that you are a woman and I am a man of course). Yes, putting effort into a relationship with someone you know you can love (even if you've lost sight of that) can definitely bring the love back, although it will never get back to the crazy early days type love.

 

The effort my wife and I are putting into our marriage is really starting to pay off now. Yesterday, my wife laughed with joy when we were joking around together and it just melted my heart.... Small steps can get you a very long way.

 

I truly hope you are getting things back in your marriage SS. I know that you have posted that your H was having a particularly hard time getting past the A. I genuinely hope things are starting to look brighter - please let us know. Small steps, active love, determination, patience and consistency - that will bring those fuzzy feelings back.

 

Off to bed now, but I think I will have more to say on your very wise words tomorrow. Please know that you have put a smile on my face and genuinely helped. I'm so glad you had your "shot". You did great and you write beautifully. Thank you SS x

Edited by jenkins95
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IMO - the ACTION of love (being thoughtful towards, considerate of, invested in your partner in frequent and tangible ways) is what keeps the FEELING of love in place.

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IMO - the ACTION of love (being thoughtful towards, considerate of, invested in your partner in frequent and tangible ways) is what keeps the FEELING of love in place.

 

(((Birdies!)))!!! Great to see you on this thread!

 

What you say is very much in accordance with what SouthernSun said. You are both posters that I respect a lot, this makes a lot of sense and I'm actually discovering it myself now in reconciliation.

 

I know that you and your xH have been through a lot and you feel bad for the way things happened, but what a wealth of wisdom you now being into your new relationship! It stands you in really really good stead and I wish you nothing but the very best!! x

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