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I don't know... at a loss and really just fed up and frustrated.


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So, been married 30 years....

Over the last few years, I have been trying to be intentional to let my wife know I still find her attractive.

3 months ago, I needed to relocate to get a job and earn a living. I have been living in another state about 700 miles apart. We have been able to meet up about once a month for a day or two. Our 18 year old daughter was along for the first trip/motel room meet up... Pretty much no opportunity for one on one interaction and intimacy then...

Every so often or the last few years... I have been trying to make an effort to... woo my wife a bit more often.

Apparently in the wrong way.

My wife's latest response to me this morning.

 

"There is nothing that turn me off more than hearing how"sexy" I look.

 

1) objectively...nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

2) it tells me you are only interested in sex...not ME

 

3) how about you love ME. That is a turn on. I am NOT my body."

 

I guess this means.... probable back to a sex less marriage that we have had the last 25 out 30 years... I suppose that isn't entirely correct.....

12 to 16 times a year is just barely outside the sexless marriage category.

Of course... she is...put upon with that frequency...

As for me... anything less than once or twice a day I am still...climbing the walls, angry, frustrated, depression, spending time alone to vent my frustration and do woodworking projects.

 

Perimenopause fooled me for about 18 months, once or twice a week with her initiating at least 60% of the time....

My wife seems to be setting the record straight this morning that her loss of sexual interest in me is not a mistake.

I can't do this anymore.

Ready to just tell her... no fault, no foul, we are not compatible.

 

I don't want her pretending to have desire for me if she doesn't have it.

Don't care whatever hidden traumas she may or may not have.

If this is some sort of adolescent wanting to prove to her mother there more to life than sex, she can do it without me involved.

I am tired of having the same fight for the last 28 years.

 

If she doesn't care enough to do something about it forget it.

 

I am hiking up mountains, and doing more and more pushups to burn off this sexual energy and anxiety. If she can't reconcile that sex is important to me and I would like to be able to express my interest in desire, I am ready to end this marriage and move her into the platonic friend category.

.... Last child left home one year ago....maybe it's time that either I or my wife leave as well.

Edited by QuietDan
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Sex to a man is like needing air. A lot don't get this. Better figure a way to communicate this. If she doesn't get it or doesn't want to get it then you have only three courses of action.

 

1 - you learn to live with it. (If you're younger it's not worth it IMO)

 

2 - you divorce her

 

3 - tell her you want an ope marriage

 

Are you making plans to relocate her.

 

I did a 5 year stint @ 2.5 hours away and it's a killer for a marriage although we survived it.

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Hi wary our interactions with her. In normal times?

 

Do you take her out, give her massages, make sure you give her special gifts (doesn't have to be expensive), take care of your part in the daily housework, etc.

 

No woman wants to be taken advantage of.

 

Marriage should be balanced @ 50/50.

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Unforseen

Mr. Dan, have you two ever taken the love languages quiz? Pretty quick but very useful.

 

Profiles Archive - The 5 Love Languages®

 

My W libido problem was more in the way of a physical issue but when I started speaking her language she was much more open to sex than ever before. While it still is never a sure thing I'm seeing a much greater return on my investment and efforts to speak to her in the way in which she feels most loved. For my W her primary love language is acts of service. So I spend my spare moments during the day constructing stories and sexual fantasies for her that I send to her as text messages a couple of sentences at a time. She appreciates the effort and creativity I devote to her and the content of the stories gets her thinking in the right direction.

 

Results may vary.

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Mr. Lucky
12 to 16 times a year is just barely outside the sexless marriage category.

 

Not sure this applies when you live 700 miles apart and see each other once a month.

 

I guess this means.... probable back to a sex less marriage that we have had the last 25 out 30 years...

 

If this has been going on for three decades, what makes today your line in the sand?

 

Mr. Lucky

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elaine567

Spend less time climbing mountains, climbing walls and doing wood work projects and more time "wooing" your wife and getting the emotional closeness back.

She, being older will not really appreciate being told she looks sexy, as very few older women actually think they look sexy.

The cultural emphasis on youth means many older women think they look awful, so you telling her she looks sexy comes across as lies to her and that you are only saying that to get sex, which is probably true.

 

YOU need to be a bit more subtle and whilst many women can sometimes like their man to be desperate for sex, it can feel objectifying and it can be a complete turn off too.

She is telling you that she wants you to say you miss HER, being with HER, speaking to HER, AND mean it, and not that you just miss the sex.

 

She will not feel very close to you at the moment as you have relocated to another state, so you need to build up the closeness again.

She will have got used to not having you around, so needs time to re-adjust when she sees you. She may also feel a bit abandoned by you, so resentment may have built up too.

YOU feel like a volcano ready to erupt, but she needs to get to know you and trust you again and feel good around you again before she wants to have sex with you.

 

(Unforseen also makes a good point, love languages are important.)

 

I know the lack of sex now seems to be filling your world, but divorce is a huge step. If your marriage is good otherwise then you may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

 

I know some men will tell you that there are legions of hot women just waiting to have sex with the more mature men, but you need to have some great qualities to attract those women and many long term married men are lacking in the skills to get women into bed.

Are you a man who always was "good with women", if not then you may seriously struggle to a) find a woman and b) keep a woman and c) find one who wants sex as much as you do.

 

So whilst at the moment you have a woman and a marriage that just needs some work, you may find that the single life for you may not all be what it is cracked up to be.

A bird in the hand can often be worth a lot more than two in the bush.

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Generally speaking, a women's libido is driven by her mind. Considering this, what traits do you have which would maker her want to have sex with you?

 

(having an attitude which includes thoughts such as "Don't care whatever hidden traumas she may or may not have" would not be doing you any favours)

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todreaminblue

as an older woman i dotn want to be told i look sexy ....what really feels special to me is when a guy tells me i look pretty ..because honestly its what i try for....sexy is for my youth i was that..im not now....

 

 

recently an ex said to me ok this example is extreme....i told him i went on my knees and prayed with my son over the phone..because my son wanted me to pray with him..........and he sai ohhh deb you just gave a hard on thinking of you on your knees....couldnt have felt less sexy at that moment i had been on the phone with my son for an hour who was deeply troubled ..still is......i was sharing something i thought was quite beautiful an experience a breakthrough...... and my ex stuffed up my beautiful...i felt beautiful adn strong.....he crapped on that.........he went on to say im bad arent i and i said yep bordering on sacriligous there ....youre bad...and we talked about other things.....neutral likei wanted to talk and for him to understand and just talk to me..........

 

 

theres times to think sexy and theres times to not..... theres times to tell a woman she is beautiful and pretty....even when she looks like hell in a handcart...and make her feel it by the way you look at her.....i dont know if wooing is meant to have an end result of sex...i thought wooing was making a woman feel cherished, loved and beautiful....to woo ..to court..lookin it up

 

to seek the affection or love of someone, usually a woman; court:

 

it also says further down to solicit favor......for me to find favor with someone is to go up in their estimation.....to find loyalty.....love...doesnt mean sex...and i think that might be where you are going a litttle askew you are determined for a specific outcome rather than concentrating on the actions of wooing with no expectation other than to make her feel loved and cherished....i do understand as a man you would like regular sex..no brainer..men want sex married or not..but do you think she feels thats all you really want.....

 

and its hard long distance.....always will be......but dont give up.....thats my advice...even though i have never married .....i have kept long distance fires burning....i would write poetry.....and it was about why i loved the person...a list that ryhmed...can you write what you love about your wife...a hundred things...or even five hundred you have been married thirty years should come easy..really try to feel why you love her and write it all down ..it will help you woo her...good luck....deb

Edited by todreaminblue
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elaine567

When did you have your affair and how did you and your wife deal with it?

 

If it is still unresolved on her part, then sex for her may still be a big bone of contention.

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Not sure this applies when you live 700 miles apart and see each other once a month.

 

If this has been going on for three decades, what makes today your line in the sand?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

The first part... not really considering the frequency number from the current situation...

 

She will be relocating here in a month.

 

Current life situation and previous mitigating factors have aged out of the equation.

 

Increasing awareness the relatively pleasant and sexually available wife over the last 4 years is probable a relatively short term anomaly.

The wife I was with from year 2 until year 25 seems to be starting to return in a hurry/vengeance.

 

At the moment, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Dr. Jekyll still is around the majority of the time... but, seems to be fading fast to Mr. Hyde.

...

Seriously evaluating and thinking about and even intentionally working on trying to figure out if and how I can emotionally disconnect enough to end the marriage.

I really don't know if I can sustain the emotional toll it takes to stay now.

I don't know if I am emotionally tough enough to end the relationship.

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Not sure this applies when you live 700 miles apart and see each other once a month.

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Actually... reflecting on things.... and taking some time to really think through the math a bit more carefully,

For about 20 years of the marriage, she was sexually receptive one day a month 3 days before her period near the end of every month.

Visiting family and Holliday season activities almost always took November and December off the number of times per year...

Excessively busy summer schedule and activities associated with the kids took 2 or 3 summer months off the number as well. However, every so often, should would acquiesce to my persistent attempts... the typical yearly tally was usually in the 8 to 14 times per year.

During the 3 to 5 year perimenopause and menopause time from sexual interest and activity slowly increased to about a 6 month time frame near the end when we might have ended up having sex 2 a week.

Then, I am guessing we are now entering the post menopause time frame and her sexual interest has seriously crashed over the last 18 months.

I think I am probable seriously going to have to deal with having sex less than 6 times a year...

Edited by QuietDan
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Spend less time climbing mountains, climbing walls and doing wood work projects and more time "wooing" your wife and getting the emotional closeness back.

She, being older will not really appreciate being told she looks sexy, as very few older women actually think they look sexy.

The cultural emphasis on youth means many older women think they look awful, so you telling her she looks sexy comes across as lies to her and that you are only saying that to get sex, which is probably true.

 

YOU need to be a bit more subtle and whilst many women can sometimes like their man to be desperate for sex, it can feel objectifying and it can be a complete turn off too.

She is telling you that she wants you to say you miss HER, being with HER, speaking to HER, AND mean it, and not that you just miss the sex.

 

She will not feel very close to you at the moment as you have relocated to another state, so you need to build up the closeness again.

She will have got used to not having you around, so needs time to re-adjust when she sees you. She may also feel a bit abandoned by you, so resentment may have built up too.

YOU feel like a volcano ready to erupt, but she needs to get to know you and trust you again and feel good around you again before she wants to have sex with you.

 

(Unforseen also makes a good point, love languages are important.)

 

I know the lack of sex now seems to be filling your world, but divorce is a huge step. If your marriage is good otherwise then you may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

 

I know some men will tell you that there are legions of hot women just waiting to have sex with the more mature men, but you need to have some great qualities to attract those women and many long term married men are lacking in the skills to get women into bed.

Are you a man who always was "good with women", if not then you may seriously struggle to a) find a woman and b) keep a woman and c) find one who wants sex as much as you do.

 

So whilst at the moment you have a woman and a marriage that just needs some work, you may find that the single life for you may not all be what it is cracked up to be.

A bird in the hand can often be worth a lot more than two in the bush.

All very good points...

I am a little embarrassed, somewhat ashamed, and more than surprised that I actually started this thread and posted this private issue like I did.

But, I needed to get out of my own head on this issue.

Being familiar with this site, in many ways, I was confident that this would be a good place to get a fresh perspective and some good advice and good conversation on this.

Most of what you say is true, it is in the large part what has kept me in this marriage.

However, our marriage has always had some fairly seriously challenges that I feel ill-equipped for dealing with.

In some ways we are a great fit.

In a number of ways we are terrible for each other.

Communication about any serious issue of any type has never functioned very well with us.

I realized I was ill equipped dealing with my wife the during the first year of our marriage the first time we got into a serious discussion about... I think it was money and spending... She started to beat her head against the wall to get me to quite talking and asking her questions....

It worked.

Later on....

When...sex became one of the issues...

I really got to appreciate the full fury of her anger...

Any time... I breached the topic that I wanted to discuss and try to figure out things... every problem in the marriage and life was thrown into the discussion in a giant birds nest knot...

If I continued to persist in trying to discuss things... well...

Sometime she threw things.... more than once I ended up having to repair broken doors she slammed....

It sort of worked... I stayed quite kept on trying to be her friend and woo and court her...

I help with dishes, laundry, picking up, mow the yard, occasionally go on dates, buy flowers... she gives hugs, sometimes kisses...

But, sex is pretty much off the table except for one day a month, if she isn't too busy, or mad, or involved with family or friends....

 

60% of her sex drive is hormonal,

30% her unresolved issues she has with her mother,

10% what ever I do right or wrong

 

Her mother was a liberated woman of the sixties, thought sex was good and fun, expected, promoted, and tried to convince her daughter she should be sexually active as a teenager...

My wife rebelled... and has been rebelling ever since...

I think she is still trying to prove to her mother that she doesn't like sex and isn't going to enjoy it....

I am guessing... somewhere in the mix of name calling that her mother vented onto my wife...

my mother in law called my wife a fat, ugly, slut and bitch....

not too sure... I sort of suspect that there is a possibility that my wife might have been sexually molested and there may have been some sort of misplaced jealousy vented toward my wife from her mother as she was growing up. However, if that in fact happened... that is one subject that has been swept under the carpet and my wife is planning on taking to the grave in silence....

The majority of our marriage, I have gravitated to always carefully telling my wife that I thought she was cute, or pretty.

Only during her... somewhat elevated sex drive that showed up during this short lived perimenopause period did I accidently get in the habit of telling her I thought she was sexy...

Perimenopause ended rather suddenly, I just didn't figure it out fast enough until now... Big Mistake...

Going to end up paying for this for years now....

So...anyway... when ever I accidently trip one of her mother daughter triggers... she goes on a severe verbally self abusive rant.... calling herself fat and ugly...

what started all of this is, Is I do in fact find her sexy when she wears one of my t-shirts as a night gown...

I foolishly pushed the limits and asked her if she would take a picture of her wearing one of my t-shirt as a night gown....

She did... a red one.... then proceeded to text that she looked like a big fat red rotten apple.... That is her mom's voice that my wife is living with...

 

Personally it pains me a great deal to feel like my wife has no emotional or intentional sexual desire for me.

 

What little did show up over the last few years seems to be on a fast exit out of the marriage now.

All of the sweet talk and wooing and courtship... leads to a pleasant, nice, somewhat friendly relationship with usually very little sexual intimacy and contact.

With a big red normally passive aggressive warning sign... sex not welcomed in this marriage. I think she was hoping to run the clock out and I would lose my desire by now.

Edited by QuietDan
removed a word out of place.. looks like sentence was lost or misplaced.
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as an older woman i dotn want to be told i look sexy ....what really feels special to me is when a guy tells me i look pretty ..because honestly its what i try for....sexy is for my youth i was that..im not now....

 

 

recently an ex said to me ok this example is extreme....i told him i went on my knees and prayed with my son over the phone..because my son wanted me to pray with him..........and he sai ohhh deb you just gave a hard on thinking of you on your knees....couldnt have felt less sexy at that moment i had been on the phone with my son for an hour who was deeply troubled ..still is......i was sharing something i thought was quite beautiful an experience a breakthrough...... and my ex stuffed up my beautiful...i felt beautiful adn strong.....he crapped on that.........he went on to say im bad arent i and i said yep bordering on sacriligous there ....youre bad...and we talked about other things.....neutral likei wanted to talk and for him to understand and just talk to me..........

 

 

theres times to think sexy and theres times to not..... theres times to tell a woman she is beautiful and pretty....even when she looks like hell in a handcart...and make her feel it by the way you look at her.....i dont know if wooing is meant to have an end result of sex...i thought wooing was making a woman feel cherished, loved and beautiful....to woo ..to court..lookin it up

 

 

 

it also says further down to solicit favor......for me to find favor with someone is to go up in their estimation.....to find loyalty.....love...doesnt mean sex...and i think that might be where you are going a litttle askew you are determined for a specific outcome rather than concentrating on the actions of wooing with no expectation other than to make her feel loved and cherished....i do understand as a man you would like regular sex..no brainer..men want sex married or not..but do you think she feels thats all you really want.....

 

and its hard long distance.....always will be......but dont give up.....thats my advice...even though i have never married .....i have kept long distance fires burning....i would write poetry.....and it was about why i loved the person...a list that ryhmed...can you write what you love about your wife...a hundred things...or even five hundred you have been married thirty years should come easy..really try to feel why you love her and write it all down ..it will help you woo her...good luck....deb

 

Thoughts as these...speak to me....what a tangle web in life I live...

flawed I am... lost...a mistake riddled life of regrets...and remorse...

hope....sometimes as solid and strong as an oak tree....

sometimes a wisp of smoke and a misty vapor... where is my hope?

love and pain....

fear and hope....

longing and frustration....

my darker emotions keep me company in my solitude...

I climb the hills to clear my mind and burn away the angst and anger, the fear and frustration. Melancholy... a word long lost...now is found again...I knew it well when I was young...now it keeps me company again.

When I was young, and fit, with muscles... she use to desire me back then... how I miss her desire... long lost to time and life and mistakes....so... in desperation... I now push this lonely man... fighting pain with every step... I push the slopes and push the floor and lift the weights... to climb or die trying...maybe when I see her in a 3 weeks...

Edited by QuietDan
noticed a typing error...correction
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When did you have your affair and how did you and your wife deal with it?

 

If it is still unresolved on her part, then sex for her may still be a big bone of contention.

 

Around... 8 to 10 years ago...

Cyber / emotional affair on my behalf, some sexting...

at first... with anger... and fury....then angst and fear....

she swept a lot of it under the rug...

We had a little bit of MC...she... doesn't do well with counsellors... that didn't really go that well for either of us... after about a month or two... don't rightly exactly recall anymore...she decided to resume our sex life....she became a little bit more intentional and positive about having and keeping our sex life alive...

Communication improved a little bit... She still is a hallways of locked doors... a couple of doors eventually started to become unlocked since then...

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Generally speaking, a women's libido is driven by her mind. Considering this, what traits do you have which would maker her want to have sex with you?

 

(having an attitude which includes thoughts such as "Don't care whatever hidden traumas she may or may not have" would not be doing you any favours)

 

Don't really know anymore... not sure I ever figured that one out.

Every time I start to figure it out she changes the rules.

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Maybe its time to sit down and in a controlled voice, tell her all the things you have posted here. Tell her if you had wanted a sexless marriage you would have married a nun. Maybe she will respond to an "open marriage". You are blowing your life with what if...what if...what if. Many say that marriage is about more than sex and they're right. But, if there wasn't sex then no one would ever get married. If there was no sex and you just didn't want to live alone then you could move in with your best friend. Don't let anyone fool you. Marriage isn't all about sex but sex is a very important part of a marriage. I wish you well.

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Mr. Lucky
I really don't know if I can sustain the emotional toll it takes to stay now.

 

I don't know if I am emotionally tough enough to end the relationship.

 

Well, those are two rather conflicting statements.

 

With kids involved, I think (in most cases) parents have a responsibility to make it work. Your children deserve the best chance possible to get started in life.

 

But sounds like your kids are gone and, for me at least, that means living an authentic life true to my values and respectful of my partner. Sex would have to be a part of that, 2x a year would be a dealbreaker for me.

 

I'd consider one last effort to work through the issues with clear communication and honesty as to what's at stake up front. While 30 years together is a long time, you've probably got 30 more to go. That's way too many years to be living a life of quiet desperation...

 

Mr. Lucky

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Silverstring

I know Borderline Personality Disorder gets thrown out a lot here, but some of the things you're describing seem to fit. Maybe Google it and see if she fits - it is a continuum, but if "Mr. Hyde" is coming out again and you feel you have to stay quiet just to appease her, it really is time to get a divorce.

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Is your poetry a turn off for her?

 

As I recall.... I don't think I ever subjected her to my poetry yet....hmmm....

now there is an idea...

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I know Borderline Personality Disorder gets thrown out a lot here, but some of the things you're describing seem to fit. Maybe Google it and see if she fits - it is a continuum, but if "Mr. Hyde" is coming out again and you feel you have to stay quiet just to appease her, it really is time to get a divorce.

 

Per your suggestion, I took the time to look up Borderline Personality Disorder. First time I ever got around to it... very interesting description.

Both my wife and I seemed to exhibit way too many of the symptoms.

 

I can actually see the majority of them with both of us. Just expressed in slightly different ratios. Although... my wife's past also included at least one suicide attempt when she was a late teen or early 20 something.

And...wow... the more I read and re-read the more I recall and remember and recognize.

I see about 50% to 60% of the symptoms in myself....

I see about 90% to 95% of the symptoms in my wife.

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So, my wife has been shutting down pretty much all sexual banter, talk, communication, verbal sex play for a few years now. Especially this last year.

Since due to work situation, I have been living apart for the last few months.

Pretty much a nightly phone call, talk about the daily activity run down and the weather. Occasionally we message back an forth. When ever I do say anything that expresses any sexual interest, I get ignored. Which in part, led to last Saturday/ Sundays message reply back to me that I kicked this thread off with.

So we try a bit of video phone last night, I just got home from work, hadn't had time to put a t-shirt on, we both have errands... so was short phone call.

Later on, in a little bit longer phone call, with video again, I mentioned that at least this time, I am fully dressed with a t-shirt on. She tells me she liked it when I didn't have a t-shirt on. She said in a way... with a bit of... playfulness. I really had no idea how to even respond to her in that way anymore. The best I could do was a weak awkward, thank you. However, no feelings of joy, or excitement... just a odd feeling of embarrassment and awkwardness. Not at all like it use to be years and years ago.... Didn't give it a second thought till this afternoon.

The more I think about, the madder I get.

What was I even suppose to do with that comment?

Nothing. I have nothing now. Anything I say will be wrong, fake, forced, now...

All the sexual interest and desire is pretty much wrecked now... I have no idea if I am even interested in trying to light any fires or throw any fuel on it anymore now.

Really mad at her about this.

After she pretty much shot me down in a pretty terse fashion about pretty much me trying to do something similar last Saturday night.

What a mess.... Too much bad history...not even sure how to process this...

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Mr. Lucky

The more I think about, the madder I get.

What was I even suppose to do with that comment?

Nothing. I have nothing now. Anything I say will be wrong, fake, forced, now...

All the sexual interest and desire is pretty much wrecked now... I have no idea if I am even interested in trying to light any fires or throw any fuel on it anymore now.

Really mad at her about this.

After she pretty much shot me down in a pretty terse fashion about pretty much me trying to do something similar last Saturday night.

What a mess.... Too much bad history...not even sure how to process this...

 

Dan, you only get to be in charge of you, you're the president of Dan, inc.

 

So making everything you do a reaction to her is a losing proposition. Do what feels right, honest and authentic for you and let the chips fall where they may.

 

How long are you going to expect her to be something she's not?

 

Mr. Lucky

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Unforseen
Dan, you only get to be in charge of you, you're the president of Dan, inc.

 

So making everything you do a reaction to her is a losing proposition. Do what feels right, honest and authentic for you and let the chips fall where they may.

 

How long are you going to expect her to be something she's not?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Holy moly reading this thread really hits me hard. I see many similarities in what I have or am facing and I hate to see you so down Mr.Dan. A good part of the problem in the last 15 years of my marriage was me trying to fit my W into what I thought she should be instead of accepting and loving her for who she is. Of course it didn't help matters much that she kept most of herself hidden as a leftover from childhood issues and shame. My W has spent the last year in IC with some serious hallway full of locked doors issues as you so elegantly put it. She is just now starting to open a couple of doors. They haven't gone into the rooms yet, but at least her and her IC are now looking into them.

 

It doesn't sound like you can directly convince your W to go through some sustained IC but maybe you can lead by example. My W started allowing her doors to open when I started IC and started telling her that it is useful. I explained that I asked my IC to poke and prod and the sensitive bits a little to see what shakes loose and also let her know how I was in control of the sessions. If things got too rough or too overwhelming there was nothing wrong with lettting the IC know to back off. I even showed her that I came out unscathed with all my finger, toes, arms and legs. No permanent damage. Or at least none that showed!

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