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My wife came to me a few months ago and said she wasn't in love anymore due to lack of passion. She has a new high stress job and we have 2 kids. Just bought a brand new house 4 months ago. Our schedules also conflict and we have no time for each other. She has seen a therapist but it does not seem to be doing a whole lot. We have both been very open and on my end isn't there much for me either. She has brought to my attention that she feels she is through and is thinking divorce. That was a few days ago. Yesterday we had a good conversation which led to a kiss and a big hug which meant alot to me. I can see in her eyes she wants it to work. I'm starting therapy for myself on monday which is also her birthday. I have stepped out of the box and bought 2 things I've never bought her before. One is something we can do together. I want to take her out but it's extremely hard with the 2 little ones. What can I do here. I know deep down she wants this to work.

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Answer a few basic background questions first and that will give us a little more info to go on.

 

 

- what are your ages, how long you have been together and how long married.

 

 

- ages of children.

 

 

- any medical, health or mental issues. any medications that can affect mood, libido, energy etc.

 

 

- how was your relationship in the past.

 

 

- when did things start going bad

 

 

-anything that would affect her fundamental attraction to you, ie weight gain, change in dress/grooming habits/hygiene.

 

 

 

 

- any outside sexual outlets such as affair(s), regular porn use/masturbation.

 

 

- how has your love/sex life been lately in regards to frequency and quality etc.

 

 

 

 

- any ongoing/unresolved issues like bitter fights, too much drinking/drugs, disrespectful behavior, ignoring needs etc etc

 

 

Give a little more info and we'll be better able to address your specific situation.

 

 

Until then I'll give some general responses to some of your statements in bold below.

 

 

My wife came to me a few months ago and said she wasn't in love anymore due to lack of passion.

 

 

This is actually a very serious warning shot across your bow that needs to be taken extremely seriously and needs immediate action.

In about 9 out of 10 cases whenever a wife says, "I love you but not in love with you" (ILYBNILWY) there is already another love interest waiting in the wings and in many cases there is already a full-blown affair taking place.

more often than not the loss of feelings of love for the H is because she is feeling all those exciting, butterfly-in-the-stomach, giddy feelings for someone else.

Upon hearing this the typical response of the spouse is, "He/she couldn't do that and I am 100% sure he/she isn't."

Unfortunately however once they start actually investigating for themselves, a 3rd party (or even 4th and 5th parties) are discovered.

More on that later.

Bottom line for now is take this extremely seriously. This is a very late sign of impending doom and not an early warning sign that a few extra Friday night date nights are all that is needed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

She has a new high stress job and we have 2 kids. Just bought a brand new house 4 months ago. Our schedules also conflict and we have no time for each other.

 

 

everyone has jobs, everyone has kids, everyone has stress. Either people find the time to take care of their partner or someone else will.

 

 

 

 

She has seen a therapist but it does not seem to be doing a whole lot.

 

 

Why is she seeing a therapist????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have both been very open and on my end isn't there much for me either.

 

 

 

 

What does that mean exactly? That you admitted you weren't happy either? Just need a little clarification there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

She has brought to my attention that she feels she is through and is thinking divorce.

 

 

OK you know how in all the nuclear reactor movies when the alarms are going off and all the red lights are flashing and people are running around yelling, "we have a breach in the main reactor core!!" ?

.....you have a breach in your main reactor core.

Just kind of statistical fact here - in the absence of alcoholism/drug addiction, abuse, cheating husband, chronic unemployment or complete abandonment, women do not contemplate divorcing their husbands unless there is someone else out there that is making them what seems to be a better offer at the time.

if you are not cheating, a drunkard, chronically unemployed, abusing her or the kids or haven't been home for the last year, there is a very real chance someone else is in the picture to one degree or another.

 

 

 

 

That was a few days ago. Yesterday we had a good conversation which led to a kiss and a big hug which meant alot to me. I can see in her eyes she wants it to work.

 

 

assuming that is true and it's not crocodile tears, you have some hope here but you have to act fast and definitively. Often times the ILYBNILWY comes days to weeks before they are moving in with the other man and serving papers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm starting therapy for myself on monday which is also her birthday.

 

 

Why are you in therapy????

Why are both you in individual therapy??

It's time to be getting into joint marital counseling/therapy. why are both of you doing individual?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have stepped out of the box and bought 2 things I've never bought her before. One is something we can do together.

 

 

what was her reaction? did she seem intriqued and excited or did she seem uncomfortable and like she was wondering how she is going to get out of trying that?

 

 

 

 

I want to take her out but it's extremely hard with the 2 little ones.

 

 

You need to seriously think about how hard it will be taking care of them and shuffling them off between two different houses and paying for child support and how you are going to get them dropped off at daycare on your way to work on the days that she is going to be picking them up because she has them the rest of the week.

Marriage is hard and managing a family is very challenging. But I guarantee you divorce and shuffling kids back and forth and dealing with new men in their lives will be a thousand times harder.

 

 

 

 

What can I do here. I know deep down she wants this to work.

 

 

First order of business here is to take it very very seriously and be prepared to make some serious changes to your routine. This really isn't something that "talk" is going to fix.

Answer the questions above and people will be able to address some specific things.

 

 

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OK one of these days I will finally learn to read people's other threads and background before commenting on the first one that I see.

 

 

Now that I have read your other posts on the divorce and break up forums, things are even a little more serious than I had originally thought.

 

 

for the sake of keeping things organized and in context, please consolidate your discussions to this thread for now and refer those threads to this one.

 

 

once one of you actually says, "I break with thee, I break with thee, I break with thee." and actually files, then it would make sense to post on divorce forums.

 

 

However during the time you are trying to improve the marriage, lets try to keep the communications on this thread.

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Understood. I've Ben willing to go with her and try new places and things but of work schedules screw it up. She is on probation at her job so there are no vacation days. I think this starting happening about 18 months ago. A year before that she quit working to take care of our son and we short sold our first home. 18 months ago we were sick of rent so we decided with 2 kids to move into her parents house to save money for another home. We lived there for 15 months. It got pretty bad but we stuck it out. When she landed her new job 8 months ago I feel she gained her independence back which is great. I think her new job along side her lack of passion has made her think she may not need me. I know for a fact there is no one else and she has stated she would not want another relationship for a very long time. She is very up and down though. Always saying how great of a dad I am, how helpful I am and how she is still attracted to me. She relies on me heavily with the kids. I'm almost positive she would regret this. That's why I'm on here trying to figure out how to regain the passion.

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Regaining passion:

 

First, make sure there is no one else. Even if she has a strong crush on someone else, it could affect her passion for you.

 

Next, do new and physically exciting things together: rock wall climbing, a ropes course, go kart racing, laser tag, paint ball, etc. Get the adrenaline flowing together. Feel like you're dating again.

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I've asked her and she said she isn't ready yet. She is very interested in hear what my therapist says tomorrow. I'm trying to leave her alone and give her space. I don't want to force her to do anything and push her away. I'm a very confident person so I've been trying to act normal and almost cocky. I don't want her to see how much this tears me up.

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Still a few unanswered questions -

 

 

 

 

- how was your relationship prior

to kids and shuffling around houses and changing jobs etc?

 

 

- how has your love/sex life been lately? what is the frequency and quality of your sex life?

 

 

- any porn/masturbation on your end? ...on her end??

 

 

- any elephants in the room such as abuse, past infidelities, addiction, terrible fights etc. Has she made any prior references to being unhappy/divorce etc?

 

 

 

 

some responses in bold below -

 

 

. I think this starting happening about 18 months ago.

 

 

18 months ago we were sick of rent so we decided with 2 kids to move into her parents house to save money for another home. We lived there for 15 months. It got pretty bad but we stuck it out.

 

 

 

 

youre going to need to be more specific. What happened at her folks house and in what way(s) did it get pretty bad?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When she landed her new job 8 months ago I feel she gained her independence back which is great. I think her new job along side her lack of passion has made her think she may not need me.

food for thought here - 'passion' is what makes someone want to be with you.

someone wanting you and someone needing you are two different things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know for a fact there is no one else and she has stated she would not want another relationship for a very long time.

 

 

 

 

unless you have hacked into all of her emails, facebook, phone, computers and have installed key-loggers and have put GPS tracking on her phone and in her car and have installed voice-activated recorders in her car and in places she may have a private conversation - you DO NOT KNOW FOR A FACT that there is no one else.

All you have is what she has said and 100% of cheaters lie. 100%. Each and every last one of them deny it when they are first asked about it without any corroborating evidence to back up the inguiry.

take some time to read the infidelity forum. you will see page after page after page of people who "KNOW FOR A FACT" their spouse wasn't cheating until they stopped asking them about it and started digging for the truth themselves.

you haven't produced any evidence that she has cheated yet so we can't go with that theory at moment but that that's the problem, you haven't looked yet either so we aren't able to eliminate that as a possibility either.

Here's why it's so critical, if there is someone schmoozing her, nothing you say or do will help fix the situation. As long as she is getting her lovey-dovey and horny hormones from someone else, nothing you say or do to try to fix this situation will matter.

You simply HAVE to do a thorough, good faith investigation into that possibility and completely eliminate it before you can proceed with any other therapies or solutions. Some Big Joe Stud giving her all her lovins will negate anything you do to try fix this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

She is very up and down though.

 

 

 

 

What do you mean by this. Give specifics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Always saying how great of a dad I am, how helpful I am and how she is still attracted to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One of the hardest but most important lessons you are going to have to learn here is how to separate someone's words from their actions.

if someone says they are attracted to you, but when you try to kiss them, their body and their head turns away like you were some smelly, toothless, homeless guy under a bridge - they are NOT attracted to you.

if someone says they want to spend time with you but they spend all their time doing other things - they do NOT want to spend time with you.

If someone says there is no one else, but they are spending time with and kissing another person - there is someone else.

Learn to read actions. We are what we do, not what we say. People can say anything but that doesn't make it real. Actions are always reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

She relies on me heavily with the kids.

 

 

It's important to be a good involved father. It's also important to be a good, exciting, romantic lover that leaves her breathless and in a pool of sweat.

If you are the babysitter but someone else is the lover (or if she is fantasizing about finding a lover) we have big problems on our hands here.

 

 

I'm almost positive she would regret this.

Im kind of troubled by this statement. It's like some decision has already been made or some course of action has already been layed out. is there something more to this story that you haven't shared yet?

 

 

 

 

That's why I'm on here trying to figure out how to regain the passion.

 

 

The good news here is there are things that can be done that can help. But there are still some questions above that still need to be answered.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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. I'm a very confident person so I've been trying to act normal and almost cocky. I don't want her to see how much this tears me up.

 

Intimacy and mutual vulnerability feed raw passion.

 

If you're going to regain and maintain spark, those walls will have to come down.

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I've asked her and she said she isn't ready yet.

 

 

Isn't ready for what?? to get out and have some fun???????? Huh??

What does need to be "ready" for? that just doesn't make any sense.

 

 

 

 

She is very interested in hear what my therapist says tomorrow.

 

 

 

 

Please answer one of my first questions, why are you in therapy?

since she is interested in what YOUR therapist says, that leads me to believe she thinks you have some kind of problem. What kind of problem does she think you have?

 

 

 

 

I'm trying to leave her alone and give her space.

 

 

very much the wrong answer. When people want space, it's almost exclusively so they can see how things might work out with someone else.

when people want to reconcile a relationship, they need to come together for more connection.

This is a big incongruency, your opening thesis is that you two are too busy with work schedules and don't have enough time together but you are taking about giving her space.

This is contradictory and patently counterproductive.

"I need space" almost always = "I want to see how things go with this other person but have you patiently waiting for me on the shelf in case it doesn't pan out."

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't want to force her to do anything and push her away.

 

 

You obviously can't force her to do anything but it will be critical that you don't take any BS from her or let her push you around or manipulate you either. If she says or does anything that is BS you have to call her out on it and not tolerated any BS or manipulation.

 

 

I'm a very confident person so I've been trying to act normal and almost cocky.

 

 

This is a serious situation and it's not time to be playing any games or trying to act in a manner that is not you or is not sincere. Trying to act cocky is just going to come off looking like a dick.

You need to take this serious and put on your serious face and draw some lines in the sand and then come down like thunder if it gets crossed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't want her to see how much this tears me up.

 

 

There's no room for any whining or buttbleeding or teenage drama but this is a very serious situation and she does need to see that you are serious and are going to take serious actions if you need to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

see responses in bold above.

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I have broke down a few times but I don't want to look weak and vulnerable. All that I have talked to have said give her space and be strong. She knows how much I want this to work not only for us but especially the kids.

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I have broke down a few times but I don't want to look weak and vulnerable. All that I have talked to have said give her space and be strong. She knows how much I want this to work not only for us but especially the kids.

 

I want to share a family story from my mom that highlights the difference between concern/compassion and weakness.

 

 

My grandfather was one of the toughest hombre's on the planet. He was a multi-sport star athletic and college football hall of fame inductee.

 

 

He was an Army officer than lead troops in the trenches of WWI and survived gas attacks, machine gun fire and human wave attacks.

 

 

He came home to the farm in the Midwest and got married and had two young children in time for the dustbowl and great depression. He kept them and his extended family housed, fed and clothed in the darkest days of the US economy.

 

 

One day when my mom was a very young child the kids were screwing around on some scaffolding when the board she was sitting on slipped off and she fell. On the way down her arm got wrapped around the board and she landed on it. since she was very young, her arm didn't break but it got twisted around the board and stuck in the shape of a corkscrew.

 

 

He took her to the small town Doctors house as there was no hospital or ER in that area and in order to set her arm straight the doctor had to put her arm on his knee and break it in two places.

 

 

While that was going on my grandfather was holding her other hand and trying to comfort her. When she looked up at him, he had tears just flowing down his face.

 

 

When her arm was set and casted, he took her home, followed the doctors instructions and took care of her. Her arm eventually healed and looked and functioned mostly normally.

 

 

So my point to this story is - was my grandfather weak and vulnerable because he shed tears while his baby girl was going through that???

 

 

There is a difference between weakness and concern and compassion.

 

 

My grandfather cried because his baby girl was in pain and was going through something horrific, but he stayed true and did what had to done inspite of his upset. He did what he duty as father required him to do even though it was discomforting and agonizing.

 

 

Weakness is being pushed around, manipulated and BS'd and not standing up for yourself. Weakness is not doing what needs to be done because it is hard or upsetting or uncomfortable.

 

 

Showing concern and emotion in a serious and upsetting situation is not weakness, it's showing humanity.

 

 

In the end, strength vs weakness is all in doing what the situation dictates what needs to be done. Strength is doing what needs to be done dispite the pain and fear.

 

 

weakness is pretending the pain and fear doesn't exist and trying to avoid it.

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I have broke down a few times but I don't want to look weak and vulnerable.

 

 

All that I have talked to have said give her space and be strong.

 

 

She knows how much I want this to work not only for us but especially the kids.

 

 

 

....another couple quick notes to this.

 

 

 

 

-Women are more likely to walk away from a man who appears to not care and is not invested in HER, rather than a man who shows genuine concern for things. You try to show her a face that doesn't seem to care she'll walk away and she'll walk away for sure.

 

 

- "give space" is tricky thing that has different meanings for different people. You can't dictate her emotions and demand she love you. That obviously doesn't work. But sticking your head in the sand or appearing indifferent towards it is equally if not more ineffectual.

 

 

- she needs to feel ( and I do mean "feel" not just 'know') that you are invested in being with HER and not just the kids. you can be a perfectly supportive and involved father from and separate home and with a different wife than her. She needs to feel that you love her and want to be with her specifically in order for her to love and want to be with you.

 

 

If she feels you aren't in love with her and invested with her but are still a good father, she may be perfectly happy to let you be a great father from your house while she makes a new life with a new man in her house.

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I think she is finally realizing how much I care for her. I told her the other day that no one will ever love her as much as me. The space I'm giving her is to find herself which she has asked for. We never really talked about our day at work before. I asked her this morning and it seemed to lighten her up. I really think the spark can be rekindled. She just needs to give me the opportunity.

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ep 2011

 

Posts: 3,056

 

Still a few unanswered questions -*

 

 

 

 

- how was your relationship prior

to kids and shuffling around houses and changing jobs etc?

 

 

- how has your love/sex life been lately? what is the frequency and quality of your sex life?

 

 

- any porn/masturbation on your end? ...on her end??

 

 

- any elephants in the room such as abuse, past infidelities, addiction, terrible fights etc. Has she made any prior references to being unhappy/divorce etc?*

 

.

 

Sorry skipped this one.

Our relationship was good on our first house. She has never been a touchy Feely person but it was great.

 

Sex live is non - excitant now. Nothing in months. It wasn't really great before this either. Every since my daughter was born everything either hurts or is uncomfortable. I'd maybe ask for it once a week and it would tick her off.

 

She has seen porn but isn't interested. I watch porn regularly. She said it doesn't bother her.

 

We have fought before but nothing major. No abuse, no affairs, no drug or gambling issues. I think she is just a head case right now.

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There are a finite number of things that YOU can do on your end. After that, the other half of the responsibility rests on the other persons shoulders.

 

 

Our current culture nurtures and encourages 'feelings' more than ever before in history. The issues of loving someone but not being 'IN' love with them is experienced by millions of men and women all the time. It doesn't -in and of itself- mean anything. Feelings come and go and come and go again.

 

 

Now, it CAN be a good indicator of something else...but again depends on the person and circumstance.

 

 

Quit the porn. Yeah that might be a hard withdraw for a time but do it anyway. Get that out of your life. It will do wonders for you and for her. Both physically and emotionally. She is clearly repressing a lot things and one of those things might be hurt feelings over your viewing of it in spite of her claiming it's okay.

 

 

Be vigilant and keep up your improvements, pursuits and your pursuit of her. Live and be an authentic man. Don't hold things back. As Oldshirt said if you keep a wall up between you both that will do even more harm.

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Sorry skipped this one.

Our relationship was good on our first house. She has never been a touchy Feely person but it was great.

 

Sex live is non - excitant now. Nothing in months. It wasn't really great before this either. Every since my daughter was born everything either hurts or is uncomfortable. I'd maybe ask for it once a week and it would tick her off.

 

She has seen porn but isn't interested. I watch porn regularly. She said it doesn't bother her.

 

We have fought before but nothing major. No abuse, no affairs, no drug or gambling issues. I think she is just a head case right now.

 

 

This is likely an attraction issue. The best to deal with attraction issues is "Married Man Sex Life." There is a book by Athol Kay and a website and blogs with the same name. They have interactive forums there that deal heavily with attraction issues.

 

You also have to do some serious digging and investigating into if there is someone else that caught her attention. Her actions and many of the things she has said are typical for someone who is getting their bread buttered with the wrong knife.

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I have dug and found nothing. I swear. Looked up and down on her phone and emails. She never comes home late or anything. She just told me today she finds me attractive. All of her friends think the same. I'm 6' 3" tall 220 lbs and pretty muscular with a 6 pack. I'm in better shape than her. Maybe she just wants me gone. She said today she wants the spark back but doesn't know if we can work out...I think she is a nut job.

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I have dug and found nothing. I swear. Looked up and down on her phone and emails. She never comes home late or anything. She just told me today she finds me attractive. All of her friends think the same. I'm 6' 3" tall 220 lbs and pretty muscular with a 6 pack. I'm in better shape than her. Maybe she just wants me gone. She said today she wants the spark back but doesn't know if we can work out...I think she is a nut job.

 

My 12 year knows how to delete txts, phone calls and emails etc that she doesn't want her mom or I to see. If you want to get to the bottom of it you will need to get copies of several months worth of her phone activity, put key logger programs onto her computer, GPS tracking and voice activated recorder in her car etc.

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I have dug and found nothing.

I swear. Looked up and down on her phone and emails. She never comes home late or anything.

 

 

you haven't done a thorough search yet. see my post above. If she has someone at work, she doesn't need to be late.

Affairs between married people are not like dating between singles. Marrieds that cheat don't need to do dinners and strolls through the park and weekend get aways in Catskills. Office affairs are often a nudge-nudge-wink-wink and an empty broom closet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

She just told me today she finds me attractive.

 

 

You may be objectively good looking, tall and fit. If she isn't blind, she can see that you are good looking. That doesn't mean she is attracted to you though. Attraction is a very complex thing. You could be the world's best looking guy and she could still lose attraction to you based on a thousand other factors.

...and as I said earlier, actions speak louder than words. She may say she finds you attractive but if she is rebuffing your advances, that means she isn't.

 

 

 

 

All of her friends think the same.

 

 

Are her friends banging you? If not, it doesn't matter what they think.

Although it's better if they are supportive of you than if they aren't, but in the end if she's not into you, she's not into you.

 

 

 

 

I'm 6' 3" tall 220 lbs and pretty muscular with a 6 pack. I'm in better shape than her.

 

 

That means there's something in your personality, attitude and actions that aren't tripping her trigger.

 

 

 

 

Maybe she just wants me gone.

 

 

If it comes down to that, since she is the one with the issues then she is the one that has to pack her bags and do all the work of separating. Don't do anything to make it any easier for her.

If she has the issue = she does all the work of leaving.

 

 

She said today she wants the spark back but doesn't know if we can work out.

 

 

 

 

What has she done to try to get the spark back? Has she lifted a finger or done a single thing to try to build a better relationship?

(if the answer is not a single thing and hasn't been open to anything you have tried - then there is another man)

 

 

If she is actively trying to do things to improve the situation and being sincerely receptive to the things you having been trying even if it hasn't turned things around, then there may still be a chance.

The catch is many women suffer in silence and endure unhappiness and dissatisfaction for a long time and then throw in the towel long past the point of no return. ILYBNILWY is often a very late sign and often after there is someone else.

Often by the time people are saying ILYBNILWY and are saying 'it won't work" they have kind of already made up their mind.

Here's the little ray of hope here - This kind of sounds like a challenge to me. It sounds like a challenge to man-up and take charge and make heads roll. I think this is kind of a fitness test and loyalty test to see if you will step up to the plate and take charge and turn this around. It's pretty much on your shoulders and up to you since you are a guy and she is a chick. that's unfair and sexist but that's how the world works

You are going to need some specific tactics and activities here. Some are counterintuitive and seemingly countradictory. This is where 'Married Man SexLife' excels.

..I think she is a nut job.

 

 

 

 

Has she done anything else that is nutty or irrational other than not appreciate your awesomeness?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

See responses above.

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Yesterday we had a good conversation which led to a kiss and a big hug which meant alot to me..

 

 

 

yeah some therapy would be smart for you, because a kiss and a hug is NOT what she meant when she asked for more passion! :laugh: She wanted you to grab her, pull off her clothes, and do here right there on the kitchen table. then drop down between her legs and get her to cum a 2nd time.

 

 

Work on it. Do some kinky stuff to her. if you don't, she will find a man who will.

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.

 

 

Sex live is non - excitant now. Nothing in months. It wasn't really great before this either. Every since my daughter was born everything either hurts or is uncomfortable.

 

 

this is the whole crux of the problem. If you are not having sex, there IS NO MARRIAGE.

 

 

It is also a very big red flag that she is probably having tons of sex with another man.

 

 

You really have to turn this around, start with the sex. Just do it

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Old shirt keeps asking you good questions but the most important point is that when a spouse asks for " space" it usually means space to see if their affair partner is going to work out. It sounds like you are having no intimacy with your wife, so where is she getting it from during her "space" time. I guess you are convinced she is being celibate .

When she is close to or considering filing for divorce and then wants space I am afraid that we will hear from you again after you discover her cheating . Although it appears you are mistakenly discounting that as a real possibility.

Space is the last thing she needs now. You two need to decide if there is a commitment to the marriage or not and to a to on it. And you need to find out the real real gongs on in her "space".

Otherwise you are playing the "pickle" game. Not a good game

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You also have to do some serious digging and investigating into if there is someone else that caught her attention. Her actions and many of the things she has said are typical for someone who is getting their bread buttered with the wrong knife.

 

This is exactly how the situation reads to me. Almost like a script. I assume there is someone else.

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Thegreatestthing

Her life probably just feels repetitive and dull and you become a dull part of that too,I'd reccomend two things either going away by yourself for two weeks so she can miss you and feel desire for you again,or taking her away somewhere.

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I'm so sorry to hear about this! Everyone else has said all that I've wanted to say. Where do you live? I'll babysit your kids for free! Take her out and do nice things! Even if that means just going for a walk in the park! (May not be such a good idea in November, but again.. that depends on where you live)

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