How do you evaluate whether someone is a good romantic investment?

[Zapbasket]

It's easy to see the "red flags" after the fact, when the relationship is over. But what about in the first few months? What about when there's nothing egregious--i.e., the person generally is nice, employed or actively seeking employment, reasonably responsible, has constructive hobbies and interests, is reasonably well educated, shows up when s/he said s/he'd show up, etc.?

 

How can you discern whether you are with a person who, when the inevitable challenges crop up in the relationship, will show up consistently to work through them with you rather than throw the blame onto you and/or leave?

 

How do you balance being understanding and forgiving--something we all need from the people in our lives--with knowing when it has gone too far and leaving, with confidence that you really gave the person a chance?

 

How do you balance evaluating what actually stands before you with evaluating the overall potential?

 

It is obvious to me that I do a lousy job choosing romantic partners. In all my relationships, looking back there were signs early on that they weren't The One for me, but given the circumstances I understand why I didn't just up and quit when I first recognized those signs. I know I gave every one of the guys I was with far more credit than they ever demonstrated they deserved--yet ironically, every one of them complained that I was too hard on them, that I was "difficult."

Edited January 25, 2014 by GreenCove

[janedoe67]

easy - if they have ever done anything of which you do not approve they are not worth it.

[d0nnivain]

You ask questions . . . even the hard ones. You evaluate the answers. If you get too many answers you don't like or that don't add up, you deal with those facts not sweep them under the rug just for the sake of having an SO.

 

 

Similarly you analyze how they react in stressful situations & if you aren't happy with what you see, move on.

[BOREDouttaMymind]

I don't agree with janedoe67.

if someone does something we don't approve of, that should have nothing to do with us deciding whether or not theyre good enough for us.

 

..its like saying "im perfect... you have to be too".

 

we all make mistakes. if you love someone, then go with it.

[d0nnivain]

we all make mistakes. if you love someone, then go with it.

 

 

 

I think it depends on the nature & timing of the mistake. If somebody in their 30s told me they did something stupid in high school or college I'd most likely let that slide. If they had previously gone to jail I'd need to know more about when & why. If they told me their 1st marriage ended because they cheated, I'd probably walk away immediately.

 

 

There's no universal response.

 

 

I think Jane's point was if you see a red flag, pay attention to it. Don't ignore it. If it bugs you in the beginning, it's gonna bug you later, probably more.

[KathyM]

For one, you look at how they resolve conflicts/disagreements. Do they blame others and refuse to accept any responsibility for their actions, or is it always someone else's fault when something goes wrong?

 

 

You look at their level of self control and discipline. Do they have a good work ethic? Do they have goals and ambition? Do they exhibit poor self control in one or more areas of their life?

 

 

I know some will not agree with me on this, but it's helpful to look at how they've lived their life, the choices they've made, the values they hold. That's not to say that people can't change. I certainly know people who have changed for the better and turned their lives around, but generally, past behavior can indicate a person's values, their level of self control, their weaknesses, their coping mechanisms, etc. For example, a man who has had multiple divorces in his past is probably not a good risk for a lasting relationship. He may have learned from past mistakes, or he may not have. He may be attempting to change for his new relationship, but may very well resort to the same dysfunctional behavior that ended his previous marriages after the newness and the honeymoon period of the new relationship wears off. My sister experienced this with her second ex husband. She was convinced he had changed and had learned from his past mistakes. Sure enough, after five years of marriage, he started to repeat the same old patterns that ended his previous marriages, and they are now divorced.

 

 

You also look at how they choose to spend their time. Do they make you a priority in their life? Do they make time for friends and family, or do they give the people in their life mere crumbs, while spending most of their time on their own individual pursuits? People that are relationship-oriented will make relationships a priority in their life.

 

 

What are their living habits? Does he live in filth, have poor hygiene, poor self care? A person may overlook that at first if the guy has other things going for him, but after awhile, it will start to grate on your relationship and lessen your respect/admiration for your partner. You may think you can change him on some of this, but if you try, it will become a nagging/parental dynamic that is not healthy and could lead to loss of feelings/love/attraction for a partner.

 

 

Does this prospect control his anger, or does he have a short fuse? It's not pleasant living with someone whom you have to walk on eggshells with, and try to help him manage his out-of-control emotions.

 

 

Does he show respect for your opinions/ideas and respect for you in general, or does he always have to be right, always have to have the last word, or dismisses your opinions and ideas?

 

 

Does he show good boundaries, or does he flirt with other women when in a relationship with you, or engage in too intense/inappropriate exchanges with other women?

 

 

Does he have good values, or are they lacking?

 

 

Observe how he treats others and what his relationship is like with other people in his life. That will tell you a lot about him.

[Zapbasket]

Do they have goals and ambition?

 

What about if they are content to stay where they are, but they work diligently and enjoy recreational adventures, at which they also happen to excel? What would be your "read" on that?

 

 

I know some will not agree with me on this, but it's helpful to look at how they've lived their life, the choices they've made, the values they hold. That's not to say that people can't change. I certainly know people who have changed for the better and turned their lives around, but generally, past behavior can indicate a person's values, their level of self control, their weaknesses, their coping mechanisms, etc.

 

This is a tricky one. When we ask ourselves, "Do I accept this person exactly as s/he IS NOW?", do we include with that the question, "Do I accept this person for what they WERE?" What about someone, say, who admits to running away from intimacy in earlier relationships, but then had therapy / numerous personal epiphanies / several relationships where s/he DIDN'T run away but they failed for other reasons? What about someone who once was a substance abuser but has been sober for, say, 5 years? Do you think that despite change, deep-seated earlier issues linger and can easily return in a sufficiently stressful life situation?

 

For example, a man who has had multiple divorces in his past is probably not a good risk for a lasting relationship. He may have learned from past mistakes, or he may not have. He may be attempting to change for his new relationship, but may very well resort to the same dysfunctional behavior that ended his previous marriages after the newness and the honeymoon period of the new relationship wears off.

 

I agree with you on this one...but at my age, I'm generally looking at men who are 37 and above. In yours and others' opinions, which raises more red flags--a late-30s or early-40s man or woman who has never married, or one who has been divorced? At least with the latter, one argument could go, you'd know the person was capable of making a commitment. (Not saying I think that, just that that's one possible way to view it.)

 

People that are relationship-oriented will make relationships a priority in their life.

 

What about people who have friends, but are loners of sorts--who can spend a lot of time on individual pursuits, but who care about and are there for their core of a few friends? This one has tripped me up.

 

 

Observe how he treats others and what his relationship is like with other people in his life. That will tell you a lot about him.

 

What about someone who treats a core of people well (childhood friends), but is stand-offish and easily offended with other people?

 

I don't know if I make too many excuses for people, but I find these considerations really difficult to parse apart, so I appreciate your and others' responses, KathyM. I mean, I just spent three years feeling this nagging feeling and not liking my partner's behavior and feeling that for every reason there was to leave, there was reason to stay. And so I became inert until the whole thing collapsed because I was doing the work for two; he had no volition to move the relationship forward.

[central]

There's some good advice here so far. I won't add to it other than to highly recommend a book I think targets exactly this kind of evaluation and decision, and which has helped numerous friends and family members make better relationship choices. No, I don't get a kickback, either! I just like the book, which is "Are you the one for me" by Barbara DeAngelis.

[Iguanna]

I don't agree with janedoe67.

if someone does something we don't approve of, that should have nothing to do with us deciding whether or not theyre good enough for us.

 

..its like saying "im perfect... you have to be too".

 

we all make mistakes. if you love someone, then go with it.

 

Choosing what you consider to be the best for you does not mean you believe you are perfect. It's like searching for the best and safest car to buy. Would you buy a semi good car just so your friends don't accuse you for being perfect? No cause it's for your safety. This is the same thing. When you see some flaws early on when you meet someone, and they are things you can't tolerate or accept, then it's better to let them go. Maybe what you don't like will be liked by someone else.

 

Also, you haven't yet loved this person (I understand the thread is about newly met people) so there is no need for sacrifices yet.

 

How I evaluate whether someone is good or not? I create conversation, ask questions that conclude a story and listen to the answers carefully. I pay great attention to their behavior, how they talk to other people, how they talk on the phone. I try to get things to the edge so I see their reaction. But most of all I know the things I would never accept, I know how to spot them and move away from these people.

[KathyM]

What about if they are content to stay where they are, but they work diligently and enjoy recreational adventures, at which they also happen to excel? What would be your "read" on that?

That depends. Some psychologists believe that a person should always have goals, regardless of what they've achieved in life so far, and that once we stop setting goals for ourselves, we stagnate. I guess if a person has already achieved his goals, and is perfectly happy with where he is in life, then having no other goals is not really an issue. My comment mainly was referring to people who are underachievers, who don't have the ambition or interest in living up to their potential, and settle for very little of themselves out of laziness or lack of motivation.

 

 

 

This is a tricky one. When we ask ourselves, "Do I accept this person exactly as s/he IS NOW?", do we include with that the question, "Do I accept this person for what they WERE?" What about someone, say, who admits to running away from intimacy in earlier relationships, but then had therapy / numerous personal epiphanies / several relationships where s/he DIDN'T run away but they failed for other reasons? What about someone who once was a substance abuser but has been sober for, say, 5 years? Do you think that despite change, deep-seated earlier issues linger and can easily return in a sufficiently stressful life situation?

That also depends on the person. As I said previously, for some, they have turned their lives around, had a change in thinking/behaviors, have an understanding of why they made the mistakes/poor choices they did, and have a much better self control or better value system. For many, their past mistakes/choices were the result of very engrained patterns of thinking, likely stemming from their experiences in childhood, and they may resort to poor coping mechanisms again when under enough stress. Alcoholism, for example, is often the result of poor/insufficient coping mechanisms, or poor impulse control, which can be a lifelong struggle for people, who may experience many relapses at times of stress. Some may have improved/changed to the extent that they have their impulses under control and have learned much better ways of coping with stress. Some are not at that stage, and may be one stressor away from relapsing. Again, it depends on the person, but I do think looking at past behavior is an indicator of many things about the person. After all, the present is just a short amount of time, and we don't know what the future holds. The past constitutes a person's track record, and how they've lived their life thusfar, and can be a good indicator of many things about them. A person has to weigh the past against current level of functioning and the values/beliefs/lessons/thinking that the person currently holds. As I gave in my example of my sister's ex husband, he had a history of several failed marriages. Should she have ignored that because he now seemed to acknowledge his mistakes in his past marriages and was currently behaving differently? I don't think so. Not a wise move for her to ignore the past. He may have had the intention to change and made the effort to change, but past habits sometimes die hard that are engrained, or can come back as a coping mechanism, and despite his best of intentions, he reverted back to the same old habits that destroyed his previous marriages. It's not wise to ignore the past, or try to sweep it under the rug hoping it will not surface again.

 

 

I agree with you on this one...but at my age, I'm generally looking at men who are 37 and above. In yours and others' opinions, which raises more red flags--a late-30s or early-40s man or woman who has never married, or one who has been divorced? At least with the latter, one argument could go, you'd know the person was capable of making a commitment. (Not saying I think that, just that that's one possible way to view it.)

Again, this depends on the person. Is the man single at middle age because he is afraid of commitment, or has serious issues that caused all his relationships to end? Or does he seem like a really great guy with no red flags, and has realistic standards, but just hasn't met someone yet that was a match for him? As far as the divorced guy, the risk depends on why he is divorced. Is he divorced because he cheated on his spouse, or is he divorced because he was cheated on by his spouse which caused the split. Big difference as far as if this person is a good risk for marriage. Or if you want to use another example, is the guy divorced because his spouse decided she wasn't cut out for marriage and decided to leave him, or is he divorced because he never made his marriage a priority in his life?

 

 

What about people who have friends, but are loners of sorts--who can spend a lot of time on individual pursuits, but who care about and are there for their core of a few friends? This one has tripped me up.

My comment wasn't really referring to the amount of friends a person has. I realize that will depend on if the person is introverted or extroverted, and other factors. I'm talking about how he treats the people who are in his life. Does he make them a priority, or does he give them crumbs with very little investment in feeding the relationship?

 

 

 

What about someone who treats a core of people well (childhood friends), but is stand-offish and easily offended with other people?

That would be a red flag IMO, if the guy gets easily offended and treats strangers poorly.

I don't know if I make too many excuses for people, but I find these considerations really difficult to parse apart, so I appreciate your and others' responses, KathyM. I mean, I just spent three years feeling this nagging feeling and not liking my partner's behavior and feeling that for every reason there was to leave, there was reason to stay. And so I became inert until the whole thing collapsed because I was doing the work for two; he had no volition to move the relationship forward.

If there are dealbreakers in a partner and you are not married to the guy, I think it's best, IMO, to leave. Life is too short. If you've ignored the dealbreakers (general you) and marry the guy, then all I can say is good luck with that. You've set yourself up for a very difficult marriage.

[Zapbasket]

I follow the logic of what you're saying, KathyM. Very wise...but where do you get the answers to these questions, what source?

 

I was very skeptical about my second bf because he was 49 and had never had a relationship last longer than a year and was never married nor engaged. Early on in our dating, I asked him point-blank, "You're good-looking and accomplished. How did you get to age 49 and never get married, or have a long-term relationship?" And his reply sounded legit: he had "always believed love was around the next corner"; he "didn't want to settle" and with so many people he felt he'd be settling, etc.--and this was the topper: He recognized that in the past he ended some relationships when probably he should have stayed to work on them. I knew he'd been in therapy and he spoke so clearly about his issues that I decided to trust that he had changed. Of course I found out he had not.

 

Few of us mean to deceive; we all want to believe we have changed, that we are "different now." So when someone tells us that where they used to run from commitment in relationships, now they don't, how can you accurately evaluate behaviors to determine whether this is true? Especially where past relationship behavior is concerned; we can't exactly call up people's exes so we only hear one side of the story, and to me it seems only natural that we'd side with our new beau, or at least believe that his experience of a past relationship was valid. But that's a quagmire, too, isn't it?

 

Example: my most recent ex told me early on that his previous girlfriend cheated on him after two years. Of course I empathized with him as no one likes a cheater. Now, I can just imagine how stuck she must have felt in the relationship with him--he admitted he could never bring himself to say "I love you" to her because he never loved her, never committed to her and just drifted along--and I can imagine that she resorted to cheating as an (admittedly poor-impulse-controlled) way out. But how could I have presumed that in the beginning?

 

And then there's this: how do you know your relationship standards are realistic? I have high standards for my own conduct and I always try to do the right thing. I am very aware of my own breaching of my standards: being bad about promptly returning calls, emails, invitations in my personal life when I am depressed or feeling overwhelmed, for instance; having a temper when I feel pushed to my limit. Is it fair, then, for me to hold others to the same high standards I myself sometimes fail to meet?

 

It pains me to think of cutting someone off who maybe could be a good partner for me. At the same time, I have been SO PAINED by NOT cutting people off who later prove that's exactly what they deserved after waving ample red flags in my face, early on. I just don't know where that balance is, where that line is. I spent this whole recent 3.5-year relationship of mine trying to figure that out, and I still haven't figured it out.

[KathyM]

I follow the logic of what you're saying, KathyM. Very wise...but where do you get the answers to these questions, what source?

Questioning and observation. For example, if the man has anger control issues, you observe how he handles stress, how he handles disappointments, how he handles conflict. And you may ask him about certain things to find out his thinking about it, such as asking him what he would do if a guy cut him off in traffic, or what he would do if his co-worker wasn't pulling his weight. You ask his friends and family what he was like growing up.

I was very skeptical about my second bf because he was 49 and had never had a relationship last longer than a year and was never married nor engaged. Early on in our dating, I asked him point-blank, "You're good-looking and accomplished. How did you get to age 49 and never get married, or have a long-term relationship?" And his reply sounded legit: he had "always believed love was around the next corner"; he "didn't want to settle" and with so many people he felt he'd be settling, etc.--and this was the topper: He recognized that in the past he ended some relationships when probably he should have stayed to work on them. I knew he'd been in therapy and he spoke so clearly about his issues that I decided to trust that he had changed. Of course I found out he had not.

So either he had too high of standards that were impossible to fulfill, or he ended relationships because he expected perfection, or he was afraid of commitment, and used his Grass Is Greener attitude as a way of masking the real issue, that he was afraid of commitment or emotional intimacy.

Few of us mean to deceive; we all want to believe we have changed, that we are "different now." So when someone tells us that where they used to run from commitment in relationships, now they don't, how can you accurately evaluate behaviors to determine whether this is true?

If the man is making commitments in the present and is willing to make commitments and move the relationship to the next step, then that would show he may have worked through his fear of commitment. If he hasn't worked through it, he may stall eventually or run. If he's stalling after you've given it a reasonable amount of time to get to the next level, then he likely hasn't gotten over a fear of commitment.

Especially where past relationship behavior is concerned; we can't exactly call up people's exes so we only hear one side of the story, and to me it seems only natural that we'd side with our new beau, or at least believe that his experience of a past relationship was valid. But that's a quagmire, too, isn't it?

If the guy is determined to deceive and is a really good liar, then you may not know what to believe or may believe his truth which might be false. You have to evaluate based on what he says, what makes sense, what patterns you see, what your observations are about his behavior, what others have said who know him well. You take the information you gather through observation and what is said, and determine what makes the most sense, and determine if something just doesn't sound right.

Example: my most recent ex told me early on that his previous girlfriend cheated on him after two years. Of course I empathized with him as no one likes a cheater. Now, I can just imagine how stuck she must have felt in the relationship with him--he admitted he could never bring himself to say "I love you" to her because he never loved her, never committed to her and just drifted along--and I can imagine that she resorted to cheating as an (admittedly poor-impulse-controlled) way out. But how could I have presumed that in the beginning?

You question him about the relationship, why he thinks it failed, what he feels he could have done differently in the relationship, and observe his current behavior.

And then there's this: how do you know your relationship standards are realistic? I have high standards for my own conduct and I always try to do the right thing. I am very aware of my own breaching of my standards: being bad about promptly returning calls, emails, invitations in my personal life when I am depressed or feeling overwhelmed, for instance; having a temper when I feel pushed to my limit. Is it fair, then, for me to hold others to the same high standards I myself sometimes fail to meet?

What are realistic standards is going to be different for each person. You have to know yourself, and what you are willing to tolerate. If you like a clean house, you are not a match for a slob. Your difference in standards are going to ruin your relationship. If you are a peaceful person who enjoys his peace, you are not going to mesh well with someone with anger control issues. Some people have a higher tolerance for negativity, but generally, people with anger control issues end up damaging their relationships.

It pains me to think of cutting someone off who maybe could be a good partner for me. At the same time, I have been SO PAINED by NOT cutting people off who later prove that's exactly what they deserved after waving ample red flags in my face, early on. I just don't know where that balance is, where that line is. I spent this whole recent 3.5-year relationship of mine trying to figure that out, and I still haven't figured it out.

You may want to think about what are your dealbreakers, and even make a list of them, to solidify that in your mind. Everybody will have their own idea about what is a dealbreaker and what is not. To someone who is comfortable with and used to a messy house, for example, a guy's messiness is not going to be a dealbreaker. You may want to consider what risks are worth taking, and what are not. For example, for some, a man who is middle aged and never had a long-term relationship would be too great a risk for a good relationship partner, but like I said, that should depend on the reason he is still single. Maybe you could make a list of your absolute dealbreakers, such as anger control problems, abusive or disrespectful, and that type of thing, just to solidify in your mind what you won't tolerate so that you won't put up with bad behavior just because he has some good things about him.

[janedoe67]

I looked for the fruit of the Spirit and someone who knew how Jesus loves.

[MissBee]

I learned not to bet on "potential" or basically try to wish a man into who I want him to be versus who he is. I too have been guilty of seeing flags and ignoring them and forging on and then when those same things bit me in the ass or led to the demise of the relationship I acted hurt and shocked as though I never ever realized it, when I did!

 

There are no guarantees in love, but all you can do is try to choose the best possible person. I think the way to do that is to give yourself ample TIME. Don't rush into things during the honeymoon stage or try to skip over taking time to know them and fast forward yourself into a full blown commitment. Dating should be discovering if this person is worth investing in or not. Going too fast, too soon makes you zip past red flags or be neck deep and desperate for it to work out because you're neck deep already, even if everything is saying no.

 

Realize things will feel good at the beginning and they should and realize you should give yourself time beyond that. You should go into it already knowing your needs, wants and dealbreakers, this is the MOST important part. I think lots of people don't have this already figured out so just blow in the wind, but if you know this beforehand it's easier to check someone against this and see if they are what you want/need or not.

 

I will invest if you have most of my wants/needs covered and it looks likely based on what I have seen that you will fulfill more of those and I take my time to see it. If you come waving my dealbreakers, I DON'T invest. It is easy to trick yourself into a relationship and for me actually having an objective list that I have carefully made before I ever meet someone and get caught in the whirlwind helps to keep me grounded and not to think all that glitters is gold. Chemistry and infatuation feel nice as well as projecting and I know this so my list is my reality check, something solid to refer to when I'm tempted to look into his eyes and say yess lol, but in reality he may be far from what I know I need.

 

Have your list beforehand I say, that can help to keep you sane and help you to choose wisely. It's like going to the supermarket without a list, you end up spending too much money, picking up stuff that looks nice but may have no nutritional value or that you think in the spur of the moment you'll use and don't ever use, leave the things you really need and it's not until you are unpacking the groceries that you realize WTF is all this that I bought and why. Going with a list (and on a full stomach) keeps you sane, you shop more slowly, think about things, have an easier time declining those things you don't need and will come out with what you need and find it more productive. I take the same philosophy in dating. I am flexible to an extent but go in knowing what I need and thus it helps me to invest more wisely.

Edited January 26, 2014 by MissBee

[Zapbasket]

Questioning and observation. For example, if the man has anger control issues, you observe how he handles stress, how he handles disappointments, how he handles conflict. And you may ask him about certain things to find out his thinking about it, such as asking him what he would do if a guy cut him off in traffic, or what he would do if his co-worker wasn't pulling his weight. You ask his friends and family what he was like growing up.

 

God, my most recent ex failed all these tests. Handled stress by blaming his circumstances and not his attitude, never examining himself or his limiting beliefs. Handled disappointments by getting angry. Handled conflict by getting sullen (with his family) or by blaming me and/or telling me I was oversensitive (in conflicts between us). He could be an angry driver--not always, not often, but sometimes. He told me he regularly got mad at "idiot" coworkers on the job.

 

So either he had too high of standards that were impossible to fulfill, or he ended relationships because he expected perfection, or he was afraid of commitment, and used his Grass Is Greener attitude as a way of masking the real issue, that he was afraid of commitment or emotional intimacy.

That certainly proved the case with him (this is Ex #2, not the most recent one I discuss above). And the thing is, though one part of me decided to trust that he had truly learned from his experiences and therapy and was "different now," another part of me intuited that he was the perfect caricature of a commitment-phobe. It was how he looked at / treated other women, or talked about himself in relation to women in general. And yet I got tangled up in the idea that I was the exception, that I had won him over. Meanwhile his actions didn't indicate that all. I mean, what the heck is that about? (On my part.)

 

If he's stalling after you've given it a reasonable amount of time to get to the next level, then he likely hasn't gotten over a fear of commitment.

My most recent ex stalled by saying, "Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?" every time I asked for so much as a DISCUSSION about the future--his, ours, anything. He would then explain that he couldn't talk about the future, or make a move toward any future plans, because we had "acrimony" in our relationship. I would ask him whether he'd considered the possibility that one major reason we had acrimony between us was BECAUSE he shunned discussion about the future, but he didn't see it that way. So then, because generally I'd' started to feel like I'd turned into a nag, I felt at fault for this roadblock of "acrimony," and this prevented me from seeing it for the excuse against commitment that it was. Mind you, he offered no solutions to how to address the acrimony. It was like, "Well, there's this boulder blocking the road, so we can't go forward and no, I'm not interested in breaking a sweat trying to get the boulder out of the way, or calling in a crew with powerful machines to help clear it." But then when I'd ask him whether he wanted to end the relationship, he'd insist against that solution.

 

How could I have pushed past the self-blame to see things for what they were, and take action?

 

You take the information you gather through observation and what is said, and determine what makes the most sense, and determine if something just doesn't sound right.

What about the role of intuition? My intuition with EVERY guy I've dated has been spot-on. And yet, it's something I push aside when I can't explain it to myself. I felt uncomfortable niggling, a.k.a. constant cognitive dissonance, throughout the entirety of both of my most recent relationships. With this most recent one in particular, there never was anything too overtly egregious, yet there always this insidious undermining of a basic trust that kept me constantly on my toes and feeling confused that someone overall so nice, with a sweet disposition (until he got mad) and lovely family and good intentions, it seemed, could produce such feelings in me. He'd dismiss my concerns by saying I was oversensitive and couldn't let things go, and I admit I CAN be that way sometimes. But this felt different and I couldn't put my finger on how.

 

How could I have listened more carefully to my instincts? How can you leave someone when you don't understand WHY you feel ill at ease? I mean, maybe it's you. That's what I'd tell myself--that what if it was ME, that I had to examine and fix ME. But then deep down I felt that it really was HIM. So confusing....

[Zapbasket]

I really like this idea on KathyM's and others' parts of making a List of Dealbreakers to refer to when you're in the thick of things. I have to confess that I honestly don't know what constitutes a dealbreaker, aside from the obvious ones:

 

Cheating

Substance abuse

Lack of any ambition or motivation

Physical abuse

 

Those seem non-negotiable for pretty much anyone. Then there's:

Excessive anger / contemptuousness / irritability

Impatience or unkindness toward children

Complete and consistent sexual clumsiness and/or lack of desire

General dishonesty / stealing / cheating (beyond relationship infidelity)

 

But beyond that, it seems pretty muddy to me. Where do you draw that line between patience and understanding toward a person's issues and the conviction, "I have tried to find solutions but this is just too much for me to deal with; I'm sorry, but I need to exit this relationship." I mean, isn't that what my most recent ex said to me? Quoting his email where he responded to my email suggesting counseling with an email refusing to meet with me in person to discuss anything: "I'm tired, GC. We have fought with such frequency and intensity that the idea of any communication between us feels daunting. Just the idea of 'trying' seems depleting. Our relationship has been an uproar and I'm tired of feeling like I'm walking on eggshells, the fear of reproach, and the constant anxiety of our relationship dynamics. This coupled with my general life direction/situation is not healthy."

 

I mean, on the outside this seems perfectly reasonable. But to me, and others who know the whole situation, it just continues his refusal to take responsibility for his part in the "uproar" (i.e., this need of his constantly to disrupt peace by getting under my skin about things he KNEW upset me), and his refusal or inability constructively to address relationship issues. He just couldn't see himself or reflect upon himself and his behaviors and attitudes that might have contributed to this relationship outcome.

 

I'd hate to be "wrong" in this way. That's one reason why I'm so cautious about just pulling the plug. I guess I take it too far? How do you draw that line, in a way that is mature, equitable, self-aware, and kind to yourself and the other person?

[Zapbasket]

Miss Bee, I identify strongly with everything you say here.

 

I learned not to bet on "potential" or basically try to wish a man into who I want him to be versus who he is. I too have been guilty of seeing flags and ignoring them and forging on and then when those same things bit me in the ass or led to the demise of the relationship I acted hurt and shocked as though I never ever realized it, when I did! Omg, YES. My therapist reminded me the other day that I DID know all along that an outcome like this with my most recent ex was likely.

 

There are no guarantees in love, but all you can do is try to choose the best possible person. I think the way to do that is to give yourself ample TIME. Don't rush into things during the honeymoon stage or try to skip over taking time to know them and fast forward yourself into a full blown commitment. Dating should be discovering if this person is worth investing in or not. Going too fast, too soon makes you zip past red flags or be neck deep and desperate for it to work out because you're neck deep already, even if everything is saying no. So how long do you think it should reasonably take to really KNOW whether there is a true alignment of values, goals, etc. or not? Six months? A year? I know very well from personal experience that the longer it goes on, the harder it is to leave and the easier it is to excuse the inexcusable.

 

Realize things will feel good at the beginning and they should and realize you should give yourself time beyond that. You should go into it already knowing your needs, wants and dealbreakers, this is the MOST important part. I think lots of people don't have this already figured out so just blow in the wind, but if you know this beforehand it's easier to check someone against this and see if they are what you want/need or not. But see my post above: how to you construct a list that is clearly non-negotiable? Isn't it the excuses for the "little things" that run the risk of eventually blowing the relationship up?

 

I will invest if you have most of my wants/needs covered and it looks likely based on what I have seen that you will fulfill more of those and I take my time to see it. If you come waving my dealbreakers, I DON'T invest. It is easy to trick yourself into a relationship and for me actually having an objective list that I have carefully made before I ever meet someone and get caught in the whirlwind helps to keep me grounded and not to think all that glitters is gold. Chemistry and infatuation feel nice as well as projecting and I know this so my list is my reality check, something solid to refer to when I'm tempted to look into his eyes and say yess lol, but in reality he may be far from what I know I need. Yes, I am terrible at this! And I don't know, yet, how to change it. I am going to make a dealbreaker list, to start.

 

Have your list beforehand I say, that can help to keep you sane and help you to choose wisely. It's like going to the supermarket without a list, you end up spending too much money, picking up stuff that looks nice but may have no nutritional value or that you think in the spur of the moment you'll use and don't ever use, leave the things you really need and it's not until you are unpacking the groceries that you realize WTF is all this that I bought and why. Going with a list (and on a full stomach) keeps you sane, you shop more slowly, think about things, have an easier time declining those things you don't need and will come out with what you need and find it more productive. I take the same philosophy in dating. I am flexible to an extent but go in knowing what I need and thus it helps me to invest more wisely.Great analogy.

[Silly_Girl]

GC, I'm forever posting my story all over here so I apologise if it's repetition but I have been following this thread and can really identify with your worries.

 

I'm 37 and have had 4 key relationships. I married my best friend, and we had our son. I later realised that for all the fun, love and friendship in the world we were ridiculously incompatible for the future. I ended things and spent the next 6 years beating myself up for breaking his heart/ruining my son's life...

 

I then went in to a relationship with a real 'charmer'. Who manipulated and abused me and to this day I am amazed I got out alive. 8 long tough years. There are still ways he affects my life and attempts to hurt me emotionally.

 

Thirdly, I spent 2 years with a man who for the first year was living with his wife but spending most of his free time with me, and the second year separated and we were officially a couple, I learned that wasn't something I could ever do (to myself) again.

 

So not successful at all. Through this I had raised a good son, qualified in my chosen profession and got my own house, car, stability etc. I seemed able to do everything in life, except choose a man!!!

 

Whilst my heart was healing from no. 3 I did some real hard thinking. I had depression and was physically wrecked. I embarked on a project to get better, physically and emotionally. I vowed never to go 'blind' in to any romantic situation again. I could not trust my instincts and, I felt, it would be safest if I didn't pick my own men from now on.

 

I made a list of attributes I needed in a man. I had my mum, sister, best friends check it. I asked their views on my list and asked them to add things. It sounds a bit Bridget Jones but it made sense to me and I did it earnestly and with good intentions.

 

When I was ready I tried online dating with a view to some meals out and some different company other than my son. I met 3 or 4 men. There were 2 I really liked, really clicked with, but I kept focused on my list. That meant I ruled out one and carried on seeing the other.

 

I nearly ended things with him twice. I thought he was 'too good to be true'. I thought he was about to turn, and show me his real self. I was talking to my counsellor every week, I still see her, and she helped me to think logically as opposed to getting carried away with my emotions and fears. My 'red flag' was actually that there were NO red flags.

 

The only one, and you've mentioned it, was that he hadn't had an established relationship at the age of 35. He had dated someone for 2 years but each of them had moved several times in that period so it was never consistent. He had his heart broken. This would have been enough for me to walk away, in the past. I don't know why I would have more trust for a cheater, or an abuser, than a man who claimed to be honest and loyal. Crazy.

 

As we got to know each other I learned what he was doing with his life, and where he was and why, which helped shed light on his lack of marriage/co-habiting experience. He hadn't done those things, I'd done them in spades, yet we seemed to want all the same things.

 

I kept on telling myself over and over to judge him on his behaviour towards me, and I just tested him. We would talk for hours at a time, 10 or 15 mile walks, long days out etc. So I had the chance to talk about these things and gauge, as best I could, his outlook and approach to life and people.

 

I met him nearly two years ago and the 'too good to be true' man I thought he was wasn't even the whole picture. He's way more than that. We're now both 37, married and have bought a house, and our baby is due in 10 weeks. I have never been so happy, secure, fulfilled, loved or had so much fun. If I hadn't stopped and taken stock I definitely would have let him slip through my fingers.

 

I know my friends think my detached, list-driven approach is just weird. And it is, for them. Some of them have been able to make fantastic relationship choices from the off and didn't need the learning curve I had. I seemed to miss that gene, plus I had crap parental role models. But I got there in the end. My approach, what I did, that's what I recommend to you. I think that's where you're headed but I wanted to explain why I feel that way and how it ended up for me.

[Poppygoodwill]

The only thing I have to add to all the useful things people have said is this: if you find yourself wavering between "I'm really fond of him" and "I can't stand him", don't second guess that.

 

The swing between the two is you trying not to know what you already know, which is that it's not working for you.

 

Cause if it's going well and you feel comfortable with a person, and you can handle their imperfections because you really see their great qualities, then you never feel you can't stand them.

 

Women especially like to try to talk ourselves out of our feelings by making all sorts of excuses. We second guess ourselves too much.