Those married 5+ years enter...

[Mr. Lucky]

Well... maybe hidden wasn't the great choice of words. But she was a more willing sexual partner in the "impressing each other" phase. Once married it waned.

You situation is different than many of the "sexless" threads here because you once had a baseline of good sex. Something has obviously changed for her unless you think that she's shallow and manipulative enough to pull the old "bait and switch". Seems like things will only change if and when she's ready ( or you're ready not to put up with it anymore )...

 

Mr. Lucky

[TCatherine]

wow.. this is a very good thread!

 

I can relate to your situation.. from your wife's POV... and I could see my husband at this point having similar thoughts and feelings as you are. I can't say how far it's gotten for you, to think of my hubby flirting and considering an outside relationship at this point does not hurt me as much as it would have 5 years ago. We have been married 8 years and two young kids, similar situation to your own.

 

You sound like you still care enough... she may have just gotten busy being a mommy, as posted above in that GREAT post that really spoke to me, as the wife who probably caused most of the problems in my marriage due to lack of priorities.. i always put my husband last. Probably getting too late for us, but sounds like you still have a chance.

 

If she is sex-shy with you, the key in my opinion is to get out on dates.. I wish we had done that more. See if you can get some of the spark back, it doesn't sound like its too late for you.

 

I also don't think you are TOO out of line with the flirting, and you obviously are well aware of what "crossing the line" is for you.. pursuing, alcohol, discussing your wife.. those are the obvious un-loyal things to do.

 

Although I have no right to say so, i think there is still hope for you if you want there to be! I wish you luck!

[pie_eyed_63]

Dear Jack,

 

I would have to say what you are feeling is common, but I wouldn't say normal. In that I mean it is very easy to get caught up on seeking those feelings of having someone else want you other than your wife, especially if she has stopped showing you attention. BUT, you are married and you need to slap yourself a bit back to reality. If you are married then be married, if you want the other women then don't be married.

 

If you play around, even if you think she doesn't care, it will hurt her like hell when she finds out. There have been a few posts that say start dating again and that is true. (with your wife that is) Both of you need to get your bums out of the house and get out of this self mind set and start being a couple again. You need some your time, but make it healthy. Time with your mates, or sport either playing or watching, but not other women. She needs some her time doing similar stuff. You also need some romance couple time with just the two of you and finally some family time with your daughter too.

 

Don't get the wrong idea I am not on my high horse here. I have been married for nearly 22 years and most of that has been hard and I can relate to you in many ways, but recently I was on the end of something that my wife did. I was in a place where I had stopped caring too and thought along similar lines. Then my wife went to a friends place for a bbq. I was invited and was to meet her there. She ended up ringing and made an excuse for me not to come which was fine as I trusted her completely. As it turned out there was this other guy there (and her and another couple only) that she was flirting with and ended up playing strip poker and going skinny dipping. Once in the pool he got to have a bit of a feel and she didn't do anything about it. She was drunk and felt sorry about it later, but it hurt me far more than I ever thought possible.

 

All I am trying to say is think of the consequences. Yes it is normal to have those thoughts and feelings about other women, but you are married and to follow through with some woman may cause a tremendous amount of pain to your wife and possibly only then will you realise that you want what you have. Build on what you have now by starting your relationship again or come to a mutual agreement to end the marriage and start again with someone else. Don't go behind her back though as it does hurt. By the way you are not old, you may feel it, but you are not.

 

I hope this all makes sense and your life slowly becomes better.

 

Richard

[General Jack]

wow.. this is a very good thread!

 

I can relate to your situation.. from your wife's POV... and I could see my husband at this point having similar thoughts and feelings as you are. I can't say how far it's gotten for you, to think of my hubby flirting and considering an outside relationship at this point does not hurt me as much as it would have 5 years ago. We have been married 8 years and two young kids, similar situation to your own.

 

You sound like you still care enough... she may have just gotten busy being a mommy, as posted above in that GREAT post that really spoke to me, as the wife who probably caused most of the problems in my marriage due to lack of priorities.. i always put my husband last. Probably getting too late for us, but sounds like you still have a chance.

 

If she is sex-shy with you, the key in my opinion is to get out on dates.. I wish we had done that more. See if you can get some of the spark back, it doesn't sound like its too late for you.

 

I also don't think you are TOO out of line with the flirting, and you obviously are well aware of what "crossing the line" is for you.. pursuing, alcohol, discussing your wife.. those are the obvious un-loyal things to do.

 

Although I have no right to say so, i think there is still hope for you if you want there to be! I wish you luck!

 

I appreciate the post, and I agree that its probably not too late... but definitely time for changes of some sort in our relationship.

[General Jack]

Dear Jack,

 

I would have to say what you are feeling is common, but I wouldn't say normal. In that I mean it is very easy to get caught up on seeking those feelings of having someone else want you other than your wife, especially if she has stopped showing you attention. BUT, you are married and you need to slap yourself a bit back to reality. If you are married then be married, if you want the other women then don't be married.

 

If you play around, even if you think she doesn't care, it will hurt her like hell when she finds out. There have been a few posts that say start dating again and that is true. (with your wife that is) Both of you need to get your bums out of the house and get out of this self mind set and start being a couple again. You need some your time, but make it healthy. Time with your mates, or sport either playing or watching, but not other women. She needs some her time doing similar stuff. You also need some romance couple time with just the two of you and finally some family time with your daughter too.

 

Don't get the wrong idea I am not on my high horse here. I have been married for nearly 22 years and most of that has been hard and I can relate to you in many ways, but recently I was on the end of something that my wife did. I was in a place where I had stopped caring too and thought along similar lines. Then my wife went to a friends place for a bbq. I was invited and was to meet her there. She ended up ringing and made an excuse for me not to come which was fine as I trusted her completely. As it turned out there was this other guy there (and her and another couple only) that she was flirting with and ended up playing strip poker and going skinny dipping. Once in the pool he got to have a bit of a feel and she didn't do anything about it. She was drunk and felt sorry about it later, but it hurt me far more than I ever thought possible.

 

All I am trying to say is think of the consequences. Yes it is normal to have those thoughts and feelings about other women, but you are married and to follow through with some woman may cause a tremendous amount of pain to your wife and possibly only then will you realise that you want what you have. Build on what you have now by starting your relationship again or come to a mutual agreement to end the marriage and start again with someone else. Don't go behind her back though as it does hurt. By the way you are not old, you may feel it, but you are not.

 

I hope this all makes sense and your life slowly becomes better.

 

Richard

 

 

Thanks and sorry to hear about your situation. Yes, I'm trying to get my arms around how I feel before anything I really regret happens. This board serves to provide a therapy of sorts... and I'm hoping that talking through things and getting other people's stories can help bring some clarity.

[jimbob96]

THE single biggest problem with most marriages is encapsulated in this thread. It was presented as gospel and accepted without demur by most of the people who have posted here.

 

Simply this: in a marriage, kids should NOT - let me emphasize that - NOT come first.

 

The spouse comes first. Always, always, always, and without exception. Kids grow up, kids move out, kids make their own families. The spouse...is supposed to be there. How in the hell does anyone expect the spouse to be there after 20 or 25 years of raising kids, if the spouse is not kept as the center of attention all the way through?

 

How many people here are complaining: "(s)he no longer gives me attention. (s)he is looking someplace else"? Just why do you think that is?

 

There can be many reasons, of course, but the single most common one I have seen in my life is that one spouse pushes the other to the periphery of his/her life while that one focuses on something else - either career or kids, most commonly. Now, career can indeed put some hard to resist pressures on a spouse...this is something that has to be worked out in many marriages, and sometimes the decisions are hard. But kids never need to be more important than the spouse. Never, not ever.

 

You want your marriage to last? Make your spouse the center of your world. Period.

[angie2443]

THE single biggest problem with most marriages is encapsulated in this thread. It was presented as gospel and accepted without demur by most of the people who have posted here.

 

Simply this: in a marriage, kids should NOT - let me emphasize that - NOT come first.

 

The spouse comes first. Always, always, always, and without exception. Kids grow up, kids move out, kids make their own families. The spouse...is supposed to be there. How in the hell does anyone expect the spouse to be there after 20 or 25 years of raising kids, if the spouse is not kept as the center of attention all the way through?

 

How many people here are complaining: "(s)he no longer gives me attention. (s)he is looking someplace else"? Just why do you think that is?

 

There can be many reasons, of course, but the single most common one I have seen in my life is that one spouse pushes the other to the periphery of his/her life while that one focuses on something else - either career or kids, most commonly. Now, career can indeed put some hard to resist pressures on a spouse...this is something that has to be worked out in many marriages, and sometimes the decisions are hard. But kids never need to be more important than the spouse. Never, not ever.

 

You want your marriage to last? Make your spouse the center of your world. Period.

 

Men should also step up to the plate when the children arive. What I see a lot times is that when the baby arives, the man still wants the same attention from the wife, as things are the same as before the baby arrived. No! They aren't. A baby is a beautiful thing that requires constant attention and sacrifice. Some men become fathers and do their shair of the work around the house and help out with the baby. I'm not talking about just bathing the baby a couple times a week. I'm talking about waking up in the middle of the night, changing the diapers, and soothing the baby when he/she is having a crying fit. Any man can donate sperm, it takes a real man to take responsibility for the kids and help raise them.

 

I'm not attacking the poster as I don't how much or how little he helps out. I just know that when a baby enters the picture, when the father helps out 50% at least, he is more likely to be satisfied with his marital relationship.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Simply this: in a marriage, kids should NOT - let me emphasize that - NOT come first.

 

I think that may have been a contributing factor to our marriage as we knew it ending. We married as parents with a new baby who was born too early and required a lot of intense care for her first couple of years. It wasn't until she started kindergarten that we had time for ourselves as a couple. By that time we had spent all of those years focusing entirely on her, and lost sight of each other. She is still very much a focus for us, but now that she is older we are able to start a 'just us' relationship that we never had before. Being able to focus on each other and our relationship has really given us the jump start that we needed to rebuild, or rather - build anew.

[angie2443]

Many many truths in there regarding the evolution of women through dating to parenthood. What you you tell the woman who is encouraged by her husband to go out with her friends' date=' [b']is staying at home rather than working,[/b] and does get a lot of help around the house from her husband... but is still not attentive to the needs that she knows her husband has?

 

Staying at home is work. It can be extremely stressing, lonely, and few people respect the staying at home mother. Although many say they do, comments like this slip out and say otherwise.

 

 

I don't know how much you contribute at home. You may be outstanding and I may be barking up the wrong tree here, so to speak.

 

On a daily basis, what exactly do you do to contribute around the house, if I may ask?

[smartgirl]

Thanks for the input. I fear that based on your definition I have taken it further, in that I have sought out the other women in question for happy hours, etc., and an occassional gripe about the purgatory that my marriage seems to be in. I did have the opportunity to be physically unfaithful in one circumstance but I didn't take it.

 

Related to libido, I hear you... and there might be a little of that at play... I know my wife isn't exactly thrilled about the state of our marriage either... but my wife has admitted several times that she never has been big on hugs, cuddling, physical contact (going back to her childhood - she hurt her mom's feelings shying away from hugs) and has never been a big fan of sex. Unfortunately, these characteristics were hidden prior to becoming married.

 

First let me say this is as far as I got in this thread because this stopped me dead in my tracks.

 

You need to learn to show some respect for your W and yourself. People who trash their spouse and their marriage in the way you are doing it not only humiliate their spouse, but make themselves look like complete losers. When I hear someone trash their spouse it seems like a blatant attempt to say - my marriage is bad, it isn't my fault -- wanting people to either side with them and feel sorry for them and/or make it clear they are available for sex.

 

There are women with little self esteem and self respect who will fall for that line. But others will say, what kind of man is so weak and passive that he stays in a bad marriage without trying to fix it or leave and what kind of man talks like that about the mother of his child. Sickening.

 

In answer to your original question, yeah, many people thrive on flirtations with the opposite sex to give themselves an ego jolt. But when you do, you are playing with fire because one day when conditions are ripe it may go over the line. This won't make anything in your current situation better, it will just make it more complicated and more ugly.

 

IMO, the bottom line in your post is that you are not happy in your marriage. Engage with your wife and a MC to fix it or to figure out how to end it. Everything else is just a symptom of this root problem. But don't aggravate the problem by airing your shortcomings and badmouthing your wife to the world at large. That is undignified and unkind.

[General Jack]

Staying at home is work. It can be extremely stressing, lonely, and few people respect the staying at home mother. Although many say they do, comments like this slip out and say otherwise.

 

 

I don't know how much you contribute at home. You may be outstanding and I may be barking up the wrong tree here, so to speak.

 

On a daily basis, what exactly do you do to contribute around the house, if I may ask?

 

Weekly basis - yardwork, pay bills, take out trash

 

Daily basis - either clean kitchen or bathe & read to my daughter before bed, feed dogs

 

Occassionally - cook dinner, vacuum, help with laundry, iron my clothes

 

I know that staying home has its challenges, just being around a 3 year old for most of the day can be trying. I understand that she is not "playing," my point was that she isn't dealing with the boss/daily commute, deadline stress, etc. I'm not saying its easier, but I do believe that staying at home gives one more opportunity to be in control and exercise time management. You are more in control of your own "world" than out in the workforce.

[General Jack]

First let me say this is as far as I got in this thread because this stopped me dead in my tracks.

 

You need to learn to show some respect for your W and yourself. People who trash their spouse and their marriage in the way you are doing it not only humiliate their spouse, but make themselves look like complete losers. When I hear someone trash their spouse it seems like a blatant attempt to say - my marriage is bad, it isn't my fault -- wanting people to either side with them and feel sorry for them and/or make it clear they are available for sex.

 

There are women with little self esteem and self respect who will fall for that line. But others will say, what kind of man is so weak and passive that he stays in a bad marriage without trying to fix it or leave and what kind of man talks like that about the mother of his child. Sickening.

 

In answer to your original question, yeah, many people thrive on flirtations with the opposite sex to give themselves an ego jolt. But when you do, you are playing with fire because one day when conditions are ripe it may go over the line. This won't make anything in your current situation better, it will just make it more complicated and more ugly.

 

IMO, the bottom line in your post is that you are not happy in your marriage. Engage with your wife and a MC to fix it or to figure out how to end it. Everything else is just a symptom of this root problem. But don't aggravate the problem by airing your shortcomings and badmouthing your wife to the world at large. That is undignified and unkind.

 

Wow, maybe you should have read the rest of my posts too. I don't remember "trashing" my wife, rather responding to questions others have asked me in as objective a way a possible. I don't forgo myself of any blame in this, rather, I'm trying to get opinions from others when presenting the facts.

 

My intent was to question how I'm feeling and poll others to see if it is common. If I haven't said earlier, I do love my wife and I believe she is a good woman and great mother. My issues arise from the fact we do not seem as compatible as we once were and our physical and emtional relationship has suffered. Also, I was curious to know how much others sought out the attention of members of the opposite sex.

[angie2443]

Weekly basis - yardwork, pay bills, take out trash

 

Daily basis - either clean kitchen or bathe & read to my daughter before bed, feed dogs

 

Occassionally - cook dinner, vacuum, help with laundry, iron my clothes

 

I know that staying home has its challenges, just being around a 3 year old for most of the day can be trying. I understand that she is not "playing," my point was that she isn't dealing with the boss/daily commute, deadline stress, etc. I'm not saying its easier, but I do believe that staying at home gives one more opportunity to be in control and exercise time management. You are more in control of your own "world" than out in the workforce.

 

I obviously don't know your wife, and so don't know how she feels about the stay at home thing. I just want to give you some perspective of what the other side goes through.

 

Right now, I work very part time, and mostly take care of my three kids while my husband gets to go to work. Yes I said gets to go to work. My work at home is just as stressful, if not more so. With young kids, even one, it is often chaotic. It has it good moments, but it is not intellectially stimulating for an adult. Again, it can be very lonely. At work, you meet people, share with adults, etc. At home, a conversation with a typical 3 year old revolves around poop, "I want this, I want that", or "what's this" over and over and over. It's often funny and entertaining, but on a day to day basis is can just wear you out.

 

I envy my husband. He goes to a job that he mostly loves (he does have his days, like all of us). He gets to interact with adults, gets to be intellectially stimulated at least sometimes, and he has a career with benifits that will be there for him as long as he stays. There isn't any security that comes with being a stay at home mom, although I think there should be.

 

For the record, I worked full time when it was just our first child. I would love to work full time and only have to clean the kitchen or bathroom and do weekly yard work. I kind of know that a lot of men think this is a lot, but believe, it isn't.

 

Again, I don't know how your wife really feels. I just know that many woman in the stay at home position feel the way I do and she might also.

[smartgirl]

Wow, maybe you should have read the rest of my posts too. I don't remember "trashing" my wife, rather responding to questions others have asked me in as objective a way a possible. I don't forgo myself of any blame in this, rather, I'm trying to get opinions from others when presenting the facts.

 

My intent was to question how I'm feeling and poll others to see if it is common. If I haven't said earlier, I do love my wife and I believe she is a good woman and great mother. My issues arise from the fact we do not seem as compatible as we once were and our physical and emtional relationship has suffered. Also, I was curious to know how much others sought out the attention of members of the opposite sex.

 

You said in one of your first posts that you went to happy hours and talked about "the purgatory" that your marriage is -- to other women whose attention you were seeking. If you do love your wife and believe she is a good woman and mother, why would you bad mouth your marriage -- which to me is an indictment of her as well -- to another woman?

 

I understand the nature of your question. My point was to say that regardless of your questions and your uncertaintly about your marriage, that it did not seem right to talk ill of your wife or marriage to others.

 

Did I misunderstand your post? When you spoke of your marriage to these other women as purgatory, was your wife somehow excluded from that?

 

Listen, I understand the feelings you are having. Usually these are temporary. Sometimes, they portend more serious and permanent feelings. Do most of us have them? YES. I post here as a BS, but I have acknowledged that part of the reason I have been able to forgive my H is that I am able to understand why he had the feelings he did and why he wound up having an A. We are human and there are countless studies that talk about our biological imperatives and how this leads us to this action or that.

 

My point was that this search is about YOU and what you feel that you need. Talking badly about your marriage in public demeans and insults your wife and from what you said about her in your last post, she doesn't deserve that kind of treatment. Can we agree on that?

[General Jack]

You said in one of your first posts that you went to happy hours and talked about "the purgatory" that your marriage is -- to other women whose attention you were seeking. If you do love your wife and believe she is a good woman and mother, why would you bad mouth your marriage -- which to me is an indictment of her as well -- to another woman?

 

I understand the nature of your question. My point was to say that regardless of your questions and your uncertaintly about your marriage, that it did not seem right to talk ill of your wife or marriage to others.

 

 

Did I misunderstand your post? When you spoke of your marriage to these other women as purgatory, was your wife somehow excluded from that?

 

Listen, I understand the feelings you are having. Usually these are temporary. Sometimes, they portend more serious and permanent feelings. Do most of us have them? YES. I post here as a BS, but I have acknowledged that part of the reason I have been able to forgive my H is that I am able to understand why he had the feelings he did and why he wound up having an A. We are human and there are countless studies that talk about our biological imperatives and how this leads us to this action or that.

 

My point was that this search is about YOU and what you feel that you need. Talking badly about your marriage in public demeans and insults your wife and from what you said about her in your last post, she doesn't deserve that kind of treatment. Can we agree on that?

 

Yes, I agree that talking to another woman about it was wrong... its long over with fortunately without spiraling into anything worse... in fact, it was part of the progression that lead me to posting on this board. I could take a step back and look at my situation and know something wasn't right.

[Bright Shadow]

Yes, I agree that talking to another woman about it was wrong... its long over with fortunately without spiraling into anything worse... in fact, it was part of the progression that lead me to posting on this board. I could take a step back and look at my situation and know something wasn't right.

Good. Well done.

 

One thing to remember, smartgirl is that men don't sit down and analyze their relationship problems with their friends. So if guys like Jack don't talk to women then they talk to nobody. Loyalty becomes isolation.

[smartgirl]

Good. Well done.

 

One thing to remember, smartgirl is that men don't sit down and analyze their relationship problems with their friends. So if guys like Jack don't talk to women then they talk to nobody. Loyalty becomes isolation.

 

You know, I've commented on that myself before. It is exactly what lead my H into an EA 20 years ago and a PA a few years ago. That kind of confiding to another woman is really dangerous. A big part of the reason that is so dangerous is that women are very competitive and they like the fact that a man is complaining to them about his wife. Many women here have admitted that they exploited that situation and found themselves talking down the wife under the guise of being sympathetic to their "friend." Some women, even as they offer relationship advice, continue to cultivate the negative talk about the wife because it makes them feel special to the man.

 

My H acknowedged that it was the sharing of confidences with his coworker that led them to get too close and enter the affair.

 

I know my H would have never talked about his feelings and the concerns he had about our marriage to a male friend. I understand why. I have asked that he seek out a therapist in the future if he really feels he can't talk to me.

 

But after our MC and all our talking, we have agreed to be more open with each other about our dissatisfactions and stop avoiding conflict to the point of pain. It is hard to talk about these things. But it certainly the only way to get something fixed.

[Lookingforward]

You know, I've commented on that myself before. It is exactly what lead my H into an EA 20 years ago and a PA a few years ago. That kind of confiding to another woman is really dangerous. A big part of the reason that is so dangerous is that women are very competitive and they like the fact that a man is complaining to them about his wife. Many women here have admitted that they exploited that situation and found themselves talking down the wife under the guise of being sympathetic to their "friend." Some women, even as they offer relationship advice, continue to cultivate the negative talk about the wife because it makes them feel special to the man.

 

My H acknowedged that it was the sharing of confidences with his coworker that led them to get too close and enter the affair.

 

I know my H would have never talked about his feelings and the concerns he had about our marriage to a male friend. I understand why. I have asked that he seek out a therapist in the future if he really feels he can't talk to me.

 

But after our MC and all our talking, we have agreed to be more open with each other about our dissatisfactions and stop avoiding conflict to the point of pain. It is hard to talk about these things. But it certainly the only way to get something fixed.

 

I'm guessing that is what happened with my exsMM - his W actually said to him "we've been through this before (raising his concerns about his feelings being invalidated in the M), the only difference NOW is that this time you have someone else to talk to."

 

I'm sure now I'm no longer there to talk to, he'll eventually find someone else to "share with" if his W continues to act as she was before. Feelings like that don't just up and vanish overnight.