Did she cheat?

[TK19]

Background:

 

I have been married for over 15 years. We have children. My wife is emotionally volatile. She gets offended easily, holds grudges, and can be extremely mean towards me at times. It is very difficult to work through problems with her at all because she takes anything I say personally, doesn't accept any suggestions, and escalates disagreements. That's the bad side, there is a good side as well.

 

So I noticed that things changed a few years back. She went from being friendly and nice to meaner and more secretive. Password on her phone, etc. That went on for a time then stopped.

 

The following is a list of things that she has said to me over the course of a few years. I have tried to explore these issues further, but she will not discuss them, or she will dismiss my questions outright.

 

1. “I’ve done more than you know.”

2. “You need to find someone to do this for you.” - referring to sex - A change from her statement 6 months prior that cheating was the "ultimate betrayal."

3. “John.” – A name she uttered during sex with me. (also a name of one of our children - uk! A slip? or what the hell was that?)

4. “I’m going to cheat on you and it’s going to be someone that we know.”

5. “I really want that.” - Referring to sex with someone else.

6. “Some men are harder than others.” – How would she know, exactly? She was a virgin when we were married.

7. “I hate it when people hold my head.” Angrily stated as she pushed my hands away during oral sex. "what people?" I responded - she gave no answer.

8. Various degrading sexual-oriented comments directed at me. This is new.

9. “He knows what wives have cheated on their husbands.” Expressing her concerns about a Catholic priest leaving the priesthood. Her concerns are related to the fact that this priest hears everyone's confessions (including hers). She stated this in the third person.

10. “This does nothing for me.” Happily referring to my physique (chest, stomach) when she was sitting on top of me. (of course this doesn't stop her from having her orgasms every time, but whatever.)

11. “You’re going to kill me.” To which I responded, “Why would I want to kill the mother of my children? What have you done that would make me want to kill you?” To which, there was NO response from her. (I have never been violent)

12. "I lie to you all the time."

 

I could never get answers from her on any of these comments. Just these 'hints'. So I deployed technology and was certain I would find something. I have found NOTHING - no evidence for anything going on. I will say this... It took me a long time to get certain effective technologies implemented. Much of what I tried at first failed. So I don't know what may have happened before I started successfully monitoring her computer and phone.

 

What I did find out is that she shops and returns stuff like a crazy person. I don't mean like normal females do, I mean visiting the same stores 3 times in a day, etc... Going to 20 shopping centers over the course of 5 days, nearly every week. I have since taken over the finances and delt with her credit card balances, which were completely out of control.

 

I never thought I would be snooping, or anything like that, but I want to know what this means? I don't want to try to resolve her issues, or work out our problems if she has cheated. Our emotional life together is bad. Our social life is terrible. Our sex life is worse. I can make a lot of this better, but I don't want to try if she has crossed the line and cheated on me.

 

So again, the question is, has she cheated?

 

A woman's insight would be especially valued.

[truth_seeker]

Seems like your wife is going through some kind of mid-life crisis, and may have a mental illness. I think she needs to be evaluated by a psychiatrist.

[Mumbles]

Mmm. I was going to say something after reading half way through, but your last bit might be the most telling.

 

Is there any possibility that she's bipolar? I don't know her age, but 15 years married, she was a virgin ... say she married you at 20 then she'd be 35 now, I'm not a doctor but am led to believe that bipolar disorder can hit women, out of the blue, from late twenties to mid thirties.

 

I've known a bipolar girl very well, the sister of a girlfriend - a lot of what they can say, particularly if angry (which can happen in an instant!) is just fantasy. The fantasy can even go so far as to password protecting their phone to create a specific illusion ... which in your case would be that she's cheating on you.

 

All the hints and innuendo, when reviewed in this context, also sound like possible fantasy. Bipolar suffers can be brutal in their language and tend to have a predilection for letting their minds wander in very sexual directions ... I mean seriously, we're all like that right? But the normal wandering can be interwoven with fantasy and tends to not be kept on the inside ... it leaks out, via either actions or words or both.

 

I'd find a way to get her to a doc - she'll resist this strenuously, so take care.

[Scarlett.O'hara]

Your relationship sounds like a nightmare. I wouldn't want to stay with things the way they are.

 

At this point I think you should insist on couple's counselling and address all your concerns. You might finally gets some answers, and begin to fix your relationship or end it for good.

 

If she refuses to attend, then you either put up with things as they are or you take drastic action and file for divorce. However, I would consider consulting with a lawyer before you make any drastic decisions so you are aware of your rights and obligations if you decide to leave.

 

I hope it doesn't come to that, but you don't deserve to be treated this way.

[Space Ritual]

Background:

 

I have been married for over 15 years. We have children. My wife is emotionally volatile. She gets offended easily, holds grudges, and can be extremely mean towards me at times. It is very difficult to work through problems with her at all because she takes anything I say personally, doesn't accept any suggestions, and escalates disagreements. That's the bad side, there is a good side as well.

 

So I noticed that things changed a few years back. She went from being friendly and nice to meaner and more secretive. Password on her phone, etc. That went on for a time then stopped.

 

The following is a list of things that she has said to me over the course of a few years. I have tried to explore these issues further, but she will not discuss them, or she will dismiss my questions outright.

 

1. “I’ve done more than you know.”

2. “You need to find someone to do this for you.” - referring to sex - A change from her statement 6 months prior that cheating was the "ultimate betrayal."

3. “John.” – A name she uttered during sex with me. (also a name of one of our children - uk! A slip? or what the hell was that?)

4. “I’m going to cheat on you and it’s going to be someone that we know.”

5. “I really want that.” - Referring to sex with someone else.

6. “Some men are harder than others.” – How would she know, exactly? She was a virgin when we were married.

7. “I hate it when people hold my head.” Angrily stated as she pushed my hands away during oral sex. "what people?" I responded - she gave no answer.

8. Various degrading sexual-oriented comments directed at me. This is new.

9. “He knows what wives have cheated on their husbands.” Expressing her concerns about a Catholic priest leaving the priesthood. Her concerns are related to the fact that this priest hears everyone's confessions (including hers). She stated this in the third person.

10. “This does nothing for me.” Happily referring to my physique (chest, stomach) when she was sitting on top of me. (of course this doesn't stop her from having her orgasms every time, but whatever.)

11. “You’re going to kill me.” To which I responded, “Why would I want to kill the mother of my children? What have you done that would make me want to kill you?” To which, there was NO response from her. (I have never been violent)

12. "I lie to you all the time."

 

I could never get answers from her on any of these comments. Just these 'hints'. So I deployed technology and was certain I would find something. I have found NOTHING - no evidence for anything going on. I will say this... It took me a long time to get certain effective technologies implemented. Much of what I tried at first failed. So I don't know what may have happened before I started successfully monitoring her computer and phone.

 

What I did find out is that she shops and returns stuff like a crazy person. I don't mean like normal females do, I mean visiting the same stores 3 times in a day, etc... Going to 20 shopping centers over the course of 5 days, nearly every week. I have since taken over the finances and delt with her credit card balances, which were completely out of control.

 

I never thought I would be snooping, or anything like that, but I want to know what this means? I don't want to try to resolve her issues, or work out our problems if she has cheated. Our emotional life together is bad. Our social life is terrible. Our sex life is worse. I can make a lot of this better, but I don't want to try if she has crossed the line and cheated on me.

 

So again, the question is, has she cheated?

 

A woman's insight would be especially valued.

 

 

While there are plenty of red flags by her replies, if you would tell us exactly what investigative techniques you have implemented we may be better able to discern whether your fears are founded or not.

 

Couple of quick questions for you, if you could answer them:

 

1. You said she had a good side...what specifics can you provide? Your post leaves that side a bit wanting, to say the least.

 

2. Does she work, or is she a SAHM

3. Have you sought out marriage counseling in the past, and if so what were the results?

4. Has your wife been evaluated for any mental issues recently?

 

 

I ask these because for anyone to guess with much accuracy as to your wife's infidelity without any context other than these threats and belittling behavior would be a long shot. Plus you said you have found No indication that she is or has cheated. So either she is torturing you on purpose or you are missing something in your investigation. That does happen. Often the one thing sitting in front of our face is the one thing we overlook. Is there perhaps something you may have missed on second thought?

 

Have you thought she may have a burner phone or a Credit Card you don't know about? Her returning items like the way she does may indicate she has more cards than you now of.

 

It seems off that someone who is seemingly so impulsive by returning items to the same store 3 times in one day would be able to be so calculating in obfuscating any trace of an affair. Especially after constantly telegraphing her intent to do so, according by what you have written about her erratic behavior.

 

I am not trying to be mean, I want to make sure you have covered all the bases that you know of an can logically check off each and every possibility. So please give it some thought.

[TK19]

First off thanks for your response. I appreciate what you have had to say thus far. To answer your questions:

 

1. Good side? - sure, deep down she has a good side. I think deep down she is a nice person. I didn't want to get into too many details, just because I didn't want to write a book that fewer people would read. But in general, she is a good person. I just think that her 'issues' have overshadowed what she has to offer deep down. She can be nice, but only when the world is a perfect place. She was very attentive to me when we first started out, was willing to dedicate herself to me. She was willing to go places. Really I never dated anyone nicer. She always seemed immature to me with the way she overreacted to everything and I thought that was something she was going to grow out of. I was dead wrong! Growing up, parenting, being married requires work and involves ups and downs, and that has made things worse over time. Her insecurities towards my family grew into hatred. Likewise any of the faults she perceives me to have are catastrophic and unforgivable to her. Most of her attentiveness has turned towards shopping, caring for the kids, housework, and cooking. She must do all her work alone. She is unable to allow others to help her. And she complains that no one helps her. She has very little self awareness.

 

2. She has been a SAHM for almost forever. I thought that she would work when we were married, but she always seemed to emotionally sabotage her jobs. She would for example, get so upset/stressed that she would give herself migraines then call in sick multiple times. Once we started making children she flat out refused to consider any work. She would do volunteer work, but that was only so she could have full control over her work, come and leave when she wanted, not be accountable, etc… Our youngest is 8 now, and she finally has a part time job as a teacher’s-aid at our kids school, even though she has a teaching degree. She does not want to work. She complains about her job constantly and refuses to get a full time teaching job. I do not push her.

 

3. Marriage counseling: as others in this thread have guessed, she refuses to get counseling. We did start counseling at one point a short time ago, but other circumstances (work-related) stopped us from continuing. She has a bunch of excuses as to why she will not do it again. I attended most of these initial sessions alone, and we did not get to the point where any sort of resolution could reasonably be started. We are in family counseling mostly for my oldest daughter, who despite being a very successful person, has run into some hiccups. She exhibits some of the same characteristics as her mother and they currently hate each other. I anticipate this counseling session is going to branch out into marriage counseling.

 

4. Does she have a diagnosis: Yes, by me! - I am not a psychologist but my frustration a few years back led me to look into doing a lot of psychological research. I have determined that she has borderline personality disorder as her primary disorder, and has several anxiety disorders that I view as secondary to the borderline disorder.

 

When I found out about borderlines, I was able to understand a lot more about her and her behavior and why my life was so far out of my control. I also found out that borderlines have a higher propensity for cheating, which was eye-opening to say the least. Her religious convictions always suggested to me that she would NEVER cheat.

 

I feel very stupid by the way, that it took me so long (well over a decade) to figure out that she even had a disorder. You can see in your post and in the posts of others, that a disorder really is obvious.

 

I just have established a line, really. I know I have a difficult road ahead no matter what direction I choose. But I am missing out so much in life. I am so frustrated constantly. I would have been much more active in getting this fixed, or leaving, but I wanted to get answers about whether or not she actually cheated first. I just felt like that was the decision point. I thought I would have found out by now, but after all this time I still don’t know.

[TK19]

Technologies deployed. I deployed several technologies that failed to work. There are a lot of scams out there.

 

What has worked now for a year and a half or more is:

 

Flexispy phone monitoring - I monitor texts, websites, phone calls. Monitoring is a time-killer and is exhausting! I hate it. But I check in from time to time.

 

GPS on her vehicle. I have a unit that costs $350 per year and it works.

 

And software on the computer that monitors everything done on the computer. She knows about that, because I found porn that my kids were starting to look at. I corrected that problem.

 

She gets all the mail, so it's difficult for me to check credit card bills. A secret phone? I have thought that to be an absolute possibility. I have searched for one. I have seen her creeping around at night after she knew I was asleep. I used to follow her and hide in the shadows to see what she was doing.

 

If she cheated I don't think its happening now. I just don't see how I wouldn't pick it up on the GPS.

[TK19]

For those of you who have responded, thank you. I actually wasn't expecting too many intelligent responses, but clearly your comments are very much on target and well thought out, I will consider all of it, and I appreciate you taking the time.

 

For those of you who think a disorder may be involved, I believe you are correct. It's not to say that I am perfect. I have a lot of faults. But clearly the disorder involved here has dictated a lot of the problems I have been having with this relationship.

 

From my research I believe she has borderline personality disorder. Some of the characteristics include:

1. Always saying no!!!! - Pretty much all my ideas are rejected outright. If the answer is yes, usually that is a nice way of saying no. The real answer will be obfuscated, but I will find that out later, when she makes an excuse, or does something to counteract what I'm trying to accomplish. - this is unbelievably frustration to live with.

2. Ruining trips and vacations. - I never could understand why we couldn't do normal family things, like go on a family picnic.

3. Doing only the work that she wants to do. - You cannot work with her side by side. Example: Can't help with the dishes, unless she is gone. And she usually complains about how the dishes were done after she comes back. No one can do anything right but her. (and she complains that she doesn't get any help - go figure)

4. Inability to take suggestions - She rejects suggestions outright. This is why I surmise counseling is so difficult, because the therapist is going to make suggestions for improvement, and she is going to reject them. I understand lot of therapists refuse to take borderlines as clients. Although I have read there have been some inroads as of late. I don't know.

5. Massive overreactions - Example: 'don't cry over spilt milk' - Well my wife screams over spilt milk. An accidental tip of the glass by a child is met with absolute rage from her. It is likely to lead to a tirade and then a bad mood the rest of the day.

6. Escalation - any discussion or argument is escalated to extremes. If I take issue with anything or disagree with her. She will get extremely mean. If I continue to argue, she will either storm out of the house or escalate the argument to divorce.

 

All of these characteristics vary to a degree by her general mood, the time of the month, etc... She has refused to even consider taking drugs of any kind.

 

Anyway, I actually didn't want to get in to this, but this is my life.

[Space Ritual]

Thanks for answering my questions.

 

Seems you have done about as much as you can.

 

You must be ready to pull your hair out.

 

Have you considered doing a 180 on her? Because at this point it may be the only way for you to restore your sanity. Based on what you have said I would certainly consider moving on without her in your life. Especially if she refuses to seek any help on her own. I know that is a hard stance to take, but just like someone who is cheating, a person who refuses to get help of any kind has no incentive to change their behaviors unless they are presented with actual concrete consequences.

 

 

It must be difficult to feel like you are in a marriage of one, and over such a long period of time.

 

Since you are seeing a counselor perhaps it may be prudent to seek out an IC who specializes in Personality Disorders in order to give you some better advice on how to deal with someone who is refusing any type of treatment.

 

So sorry you are in this situation. It seems nightmarish, to say the least.

[Mumbles]

Geez, I really feel for you.

 

I see counselling mentioned and that she's not responded well to it. Are _you_ continuing to go? I only mention this because there might be something to be gained from your angle in best methods to deal with the situation.

 

This is really sounding like a disorder to me, but I'm no professional and can't offer anything on that front. If she won't go to a therapist or can't get anything out of going to one - god - what can you do?

 

I mentioned several posts ago a girlfriend from years ago who's sister was bi-polar ... I don't have any medical training so I can't know if your wife is suffering this, but in the sisters case, in the end, the family had to have her committed ... against her will. It was ugly mate, really really ugly - when they came to get her she just lost her friggin mind, it was a terrible terrible thing to have to go through .... however, she did get the medical assistance that she so desperately required and this helped to 'level out' her mental state significantly.

 

Bi-polar though is an ongoing lifelong struggle and keeping people inside their 'program' and taking the medication that they need to even have a hope of conducting a semi normal life is an even bigger challenge.

 

I sincerely hope that your wife isn't suffering this disorder, but clearly something very odd is going on. You seeing a councillor yourself might help you to become aware of options and remedies that might be available to help your wife and ultimately to help your families life.

[Downtown]

I have determined that she has borderline personality disorder as her primary disorder.

TK, welcome to LoveShack. I've been following your thread since you first posted on it. I agree with you that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., very oversensitive to perceived slights, controlling behavior, easily triggered temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, emotionally unstable, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD. I would have said something two days ago in your thread but, until you clarified things today, I was confused by your statement (post #1) that "things changed a few years back. She went from being friendly and nice to meaner and more secretive." I mistakenly thought you were telling us that your 15-year marriage was "friendly and nice" for roughly 12 years and then your W became very mean "a few years back."

 

My experience (having been married 15 years to a BPDer myself) is that persistent BPD traits (i.e., those arising from childhood trauma) will vanish for maybe six months during the courtship period but will NOT vanish for 12 years. When BPD traits flare up suddenly after 12 years, the cause typically is not a lasting "personality disorder" but, rather, a temporary problem caused by hormone changes or drug abuse -- or, as Mumbles suggested, the instability could be caused by bipolar-1 because it can start showing itself at age 35 (although the normal range for age of onset is 18-30).

 

Yet, given what you've said today, you are now describing a woman who exhibited BPD warning signs throughout your marriage. As you said today, "She always seemed immature to me with the way she overreacted to everything and I thought that was something she was going to grow out of."

 

I caution that BPD is not something a person "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot -- after you've been living with a woman for 15 years -- because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.

 

In general, she is a good person.

In general, BPDers (i.e., those having strong and persistent traits) are good and caring people. Their problem is not being bad but, rather, unstable. Hence, most of them are very easy to fall in love with. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both exhibited full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct.

 

I also found out that borderlines have a higher propensity for cheating.

Because BPDers are unstable and impulsive, it likely is true that the incidence of cheating is higher for them than for the general population. But to say it is "higher," however, is not saying much. I've yet to see any reliable studies showing just how much "higher" that is.

 

Based on my experience with BPDers, I doubt the incidence is very much greater for them. I generally view frequent sexual infidelity -- as I view frequent lying -- as a trait strongly associated with narcissism and sociopathy -- not with BPD. Granted, BPDer relationships tend to be short lived and thus a BPDer typically will leave many abused ex-partners in her wake. This does not imply, however. she cheated on any of them.

 

Because BPDers are filled with self loathing and shame, they find it very painful to deal with additional guilt. Hence, my experience is that most high functioning BPDers are not the serial cheaters they are portrayed as being at many popular web sites (e.g., Schreiber's website targeted to abused men). Those portrayals of BPDers being frequent cheaters typically occur at websites, and in pop-psych books, that mistakenly confuse BPD with narcissism and sociopathy.

 

Marriage counseling: as others in this thread have guessed, she refuses to get counseling.

If your W is an untreated BPDer, MC likely will be a total waste of time and money. Although marriage counselors generally are good at teaching communication skills, a BPDer's issues are far more serious and difficult to treat. Until those underlying issues are addressed in several years of IC, teaching a BPDer better communication skills likely will only make her better at controlling you -- and will provide her a stage on which to beat you up in front of an audience (the MC).

 

If you would like to read about my 15 years of experience with my BPDer exW, I suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs and read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, TK.

[Downtown]

Is there any possibility that she's bipolar?

Certainly, bipolar is a possibility. Indeed, if TK's wife actually suffers from full-blown BPD, there is a one-third chance of her also suffering from bipolar-1. I note, however, that the behaviors TK describes are far closer to the warning signs for BPD than those for bipolar. The event-triggered temper tantrums, for example, are much more consistent with a BPD mood change -- which typically occurs in only ten seconds in response to some minor event that triggers the BPDer's fear of abandonment or engulfment.

 

In contrast, a bipolar mood change usually takes two weeks to develop, lasts for another several weeks, and then takes several weeks to fade away. Bipolar mood changes typically are so slow because they arise from slow changes in body chemistry and thus do not suddenly appear in response to a minor comment or action. If you are interested, Mumbles, I describe the differences I've seen between BPD and bipolar behaviors at 12 BPD/Bipolar Differences. That post is based on my experiences with a bipolar-1 sufferer (my foster son) and a BPDer (my exW).

[frigginlost]

I just love it when Downtown joins a thread regarding BPD. It's like reading something from a soldier who I fought in the same war with.

 

OP, I was with a BPD sufferer for years and one of my closest friends is one. I am in complete agreement with Downtown. At first since I thought the "symptoms" were not apparent during the entire relationship, it didn't trigger a BPD "flag" with me. Knowing now that those signs have indeed been part of your entire relationship, I do believe there is a strong possibility she might be BPD.

 

Please note that nobody can make the call of BPD other than a professional, but my hunch is definitely pointing that way. Please read Downtown's thread as they are extremely informational.

 

Downtown speaks in those threads of engulfing and abadondonment. Read them very closely. My ex was a BPD cheater and very good at manipulation. We went to counseling and she could actually play head games with the counselor and toy with her. Oddly, I was able to learn about her "pathways" in her reactions and could catch her starting to manipulate. She hated me for it. In the end, it was just too much to live with and completely unhealthy for me.

 

As a side note -- Although not a big thing in the grand scheme of things, your mention of doing the dishes and spilled milk hit right square between my eyes. My ex hated me doing dishes with her, and then would complain about how I did them by myself. If one of the kids ever spilled anything, you would think the world was about to end. She would lash out unbelievably bad.

[Downtown]

Friggin, thanks for joining TK's thread. From what you wrote, it is apparent that -- like me -- you were ready to jump in days ago until you read that sentence about TK's W turning meaner "a few years back."

Please note that nobody can make the call of BPD other than a professional.

I agree. Only a professional can determine whether her BPD traits are so strong and persistent as to satisfy 100% of the criteria for having full-blown BPD traits. But, thankfully, TK decided to protect himself by reading about those traits on his own. It is unlikely a professional treating his W would tell him about it. There are several reasons for this:

 

• (a) in the unlikely event she visits a psychologist several times, it is highly unlikely she will exhibit any BPD traits for the psych to see;
  
• (b) in the unlikely event he does see the BPD traits, it is unlikely he will tell her what they are called (much less tell TK);
  
• © in the unlikely event he does tell her, he will simply rate the severity of the symptoms and will not provide a real "diagnosis" (in the strict sense that term is used throughout all fields of the medical sciences).
  

With regard to (a), I observe that the vast majority of BPDers -- available statistics suggest between 2/3 and 3/4 of BPDers -- are "high functioning." This means they typically do not exhibit their BPD traits to psychologists, casual friends, business associates, or total strangers -- because NONE of those people have drawn sufficiently close to trigger the BPDer's great fear of abandonment and engulfment. Hence, the vast majority of BPDers don't go to a psychologist and, in the unlikely event they do, will not exhibit BPD traits during the 50-minute session with that professional. What psychologists are good at "diagnosing," then, is the small share of BPDers who are so low functioning they typically are attempting suicide, cutting themselves, or are being forcibly admitted to a psychiatric unit.

 

With regard to (b), it is well known -- both inside and outside the psychiatric community -- that therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer (much less tell her spouse) the name of her disorder, unless she is very low functioning. (If TK's W is a full-blown BPDer, she almost certainly is high functioning or he would not have dated her, much less married her.) This information is routinely withheld to protect the sick client. Hence, TK's best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion is to see his own psychologist. Yet, because that psych has never seen or treated her, he cannot render a "diagnosis." But there is a good chance he will express a candid professional "opinion." I discuss this in further detail in my post at Loath to Diagnose BPD.

 

With regard to ©, I note that a "diagnosis" in all fields of the medical sciences does NOT mean that the doctor tells you how severe your symptoms are. Rather, that is what YOU tell HIM. Indeed, the first thing a doctor will ask you during an office visit is "what symptoms are you experiencing?" Based on your description of those symptoms, a medical doctor usually will give you several tentative diagnoses -- i.e., several diseases that are known to produce those symptoms -- which is later narrowed down by lab test results on biological markers. Hence, in the medical sciences, "diagnosis" means identifying the disease causing the observed symptoms.

 

With personality disorders, however, there are no known diseases causing any of them. Psychologists therefore use the term "diagnosis" not to identify a disease but, rather, to simply identify the persistence and severity of the symptoms. That is, a psychologist can tell TK whether his W's symptoms are so severe that they satisfy 100% of the BPD diagnostic guidelines (which are nothing more than a list of symptoms). Yet, a woman satisfying only 80% of those guidelines (hence, "not having BPD") likely will be nearly as impossible to live with as a woman satisfying 100% (hence, "having BPD").

 

Moreover, the American Psychiatric Association is currently in the process of dumping its dichotomous method for "diagnosing" personality disorders in order to replace it with a graduated approach (i.e., determining whether symptoms are low, normal, moderate, strong, or severe). That new methodology, which hopefully will be adopted when the next edition of DSM is released in ten years or so, will allow a psych to tell you whether your symptoms are a 4 or a 5 on a 5-point scale. But, of course, it still will not permit psychologists to "diagnose" in the sense it is done in medical sciences. If your medical doctor charged you $150 to simply tell you that your stomach pain is a 4 on a 5-point scale, you likely would be enraged.

 

I therefore believe that, for the purposes of deciding whether to marry someone -- or, in TK's case, of deciding whether to stay married -- it is important to protect yourself by learning how to spot the warning signs (i.e., symptoms) on your own. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behavioral symptoms such as temper tantrums and irrational jealousy. Of course, this is not a surprising conclusion. It is rare for any adult in our society to feel the need to take a psychologist along on dates to help him select a proper mate.

[Just a Guy]

Hi TK, after reading through your thread all I can say is your marriage is dysfunctional at best and a nightmare for you at the worst. It is indeed commendable of you to have stuck around for so long and tried your level best to help your wife with her problems. However unless she is on board there is little you can do to help her. In this case just remember that you do not have to commit your self to a life in a living hell if that is what your wife wants to impose on you. You are entitled to a life of happiness and if she refuses to allow you that you have every right to leave for the sake of your sanity. Maybe it will dawn on her that there is something seriously wrong with her once you leave her and she may seek treatment and therapy for her problems to become a better person. I guess you have only one option and that is to bail. Warm wishes.

[RRM321]

You are asking the wrong question. Cheating seems irrelevant to this story - save for the diversion it allows you from the REAL question:

 

Is this a toxic relationship which you need to end?

 

Stop spying on her because, neither the searching or the discovery will prvide you any solace. Cheating is not the problem it's just one small symptom on a very long list of dysfunctions.

 

Get outside of your own head and make some careful and objective observations about how this is affecting your children. Your priorities will change.

[TK19]

Ok, so I am just taking all this in. I appreciate all the feedback and suggestions.

 

I wasn’t expecting a whole psychological analysis, but the insight is invaluable in my future decision-making. I now know that others have gone through this, which is also helpful.

 

In terms of whether she cheated, I still think that is important for me to know. I think I have the right to know. All my time, everything I have earned, my whole life is invested in this woman and this family. And it will affect any future relationship and any communication with her, and how I proceed whether I am with her or not. Frankly it will change my view of things, because it is a statement of character (good or bad) depending on the answer.

 

I also think it is interesting that I can see so many similarities in other’s experiences and mine. It helps to read everyone’s suggestions. I also see some differences in my experiences and the experiences of others. I will say that after hitting the psychology books once again at this time in my life, it has helped me see many ‘personality characteristics’ in other people I am around. I have employed two other people with high number of borderline characteristics and one person with bipolar disorder (the latter was clinically diagnosed). All three are men and it is interesting in the differences in how it manifests itself. We live with these people every day. But I digress.

 

I don’t know how I am going to proceed at this point. I will say this:

 

1. I am not going to bother with tracking her very much, not because I shouldn’t, but because it is a huge burden on me and I haven’t gotten any solid answers. I run a business and I have no time for trying to chase someone down. Whatever may have happened does not seem to be going on now. I’m going to keep technology in place and keep my eyes open though.

 

2. I am not going to try therapy with her. We were just in a ‘family’ counseling session a couple days ago and I was testing the water on some issues… After we left the office the first thing she said was how she hated the councilor and how the whole psychology thing is just a bunch of BS!!! She knows she has personality issues. You would think that a person who has anxiety, unreasonable fears, and all these borderline characteristics would want to get some help, get some relief so she could feel better, but no, not with borderlines. It’s really sad.

 

Thanks for the suggestion on the therapy issue Downtown. That will save me so much time, money and anguish trying to get her to go, etc., getting no results, or worse just allowing her to learn more about how she can become even more manipulative and destructive. I can see how that would go, very clearly.

 

3. Leave or stay? It almost appears that I don’t have a lot of options left. There is a lot for me to consider that I have not mentioned here. I would not have a problem finding someone else. That is not an issue. My kids are a huge issue either way.

[RRM321]

In terms of whether she cheated, I still think that is important for me to know. I think I have the right to know. All my time, everything I have earned, my whole life is invested in this woman and this family. And it will affect any future relationship and any communication with her, and how I proceed whether I am with her or not. Frankly it will change my view of things, because it is a statement of character (good or bad) depending on the answer.

 

It really won't change anything. You just want it because it feels like something tangible to which you can attach blame.

 

Her character does not change and is the same before and after cheating. What changes is your willful blindness to the reality that has been in front of you all along. Revelations of cheating simply snap you out of your fantasy and force you to stop pretending she's the person you wanted her to be and see her for who she really is.

 

You can stop projecting your false wish of who she was (is) and adopt a more realistic perception without dragging yourself through a lot of wasted time and pain over the cheating issue. Dump the tracking technology. Believe me - it is an unhealthy diversion from the things you really need to focus on.

 

I will say that after hitting the psychology books once again at this time in my life, it has helped me see many ‘personality characteristics’ in other people I am around. I have employed two other people with high number of borderline characteristics and one person with bipolar disorder

 

Everything lies on a spectrum and rises and falls with certain circumstances. To be fair, while your're tracking your GF for cheating - you too would fit the DSM-IV criteria for a few personality disorders. Behavior alone is not enough to infer causality with personality traits.

 

I am not going to try therapy with her. We were just in a ‘family’ counseling session a couple days ago and I was testing the water on some issues… After we left the office the first thing she said was how she hated the councilor and how the whole psychology thing is just a bunch of BS!!! She knows she has personality issues. You would think that a person who has anxiety, unreasonable fears, and all these borderline characteristics would want to get some help, get some relief so she could feel better, but no, not with borderlines. It’s really sad.

 

You will undermine the therapy if you approach it with the purpose to "fix her." Concentrate on you not her, and let the therapy lead where it may.

 

3. My kids are a huge issue either way.

 

They need to be your first issue because, they don't get to choose who their parents are. Leave or stay is not an option for them, and they will be the refugees or collateral damage of this war.

Edited February 11, 2016 by RRM321

[Redhead14]

Background:

 

I have been married for over 15 years. We have children. My wife is emotionally volatile. She gets offended easily, holds grudges, and can be extremely mean towards me at times. It is very difficult to work through problems with her at all because she takes anything I say personally, doesn't accept any suggestions, and escalates disagreements. That's the bad side, there is a good side as well.

 

So I noticed that things changed a few years back. She went from being friendly and nice to meaner and more secretive. Password on her phone, etc. That went on for a time then stopped.

 

The following is a list of things that she has said to me over the course of a few years. I have tried to explore these issues further, but she will not discuss them, or she will dismiss my questions outright.

 

1. “I’ve done more than you know.”

2. “You need to find someone to do this for you.” - referring to sex - A change from her statement 6 months prior that cheating was the "ultimate betrayal."

3. “John.” – A name she uttered during sex with me. (also a name of one of our children - uk! A slip? or what the hell was that?)

4. “I’m going to cheat on you and it’s going to be someone that we know.”

5. “I really want that.” - Referring to sex with someone else.

6. “Some men are harder than others.” – How would she know, exactly? She was a virgin when we were married.

7. “I hate it when people hold my head.” Angrily stated as she pushed my hands away during oral sex. "what people?" I responded - she gave no answer.

8. Various degrading sexual-oriented comments directed at me. This is new.

9. “He knows what wives have cheated on their husbands.” Expressing her concerns about a Catholic priest leaving the priesthood. Her concerns are related to the fact that this priest hears everyone's confessions (including hers). She stated this in the third person.

10. “This does nothing for me.” Happily referring to my physique (chest, stomach) when she was sitting on top of me. (of course this doesn't stop her from having her orgasms every time, but whatever.)

11. “You’re going to kill me.” To which I responded, “Why would I want to kill the mother of my children? What have you done that would make me want to kill you?” To which, there was NO response from her. (I have never been violent)

12. "I lie to you all the time."

 

I could never get answers from her on any of these comments. Just these 'hints'. So I deployed technology and was certain I would find something. I have found NOTHING - no evidence for anything going on. I will say this... It took me a long time to get certain effective technologies implemented. Much of what I tried at first failed. So I don't know what may have happened before I started successfully monitoring her computer and phone.

 

What I did find out is that she shops and returns stuff like a crazy person. I don't mean like normal females do, I mean visiting the same stores 3 times in a day, etc... Going to 20 shopping centers over the course of 5 days, nearly every week. I have since taken over the finances and delt with her credit card balances, which were completely out of control.

 

I never thought I would be snooping, or anything like that, but I want to know what this means? I don't want to try to resolve her issues, or work out our problems if she has cheated. Our emotional life together is bad. Our social life is terrible. Our sex life is worse. I can make a lot of this better, but I don't want to try if she has crossed the line and cheated on me.

 

So again, the question is, has she cheated?

 

A woman's insight would be especially valued.

 

There is no way for us to know for sure. But I would trust your gut. There is something going on for sure. She is masking guilt, depression, something with shopping the way an alcoholic uses alcohol to deal with something they are struggling with. It's a coping mechanism.

 

Going to 20 shopping centers over the course of 5 days, nearly every week. I have since taken over the finances and delt with her credit card balances, which were completely out of control.

 

Get to the root of this, and you will know what's what. I would use this to demand that she go to couple's counseling and, if she refuses, you leave. It's not an ultimatum. It's not a threat. She agrees or you leave without discussion.

[Downtown]

3. Leave or stay? ...There is a lot for me to consider that I have not mentioned here.

TK, given that you believe your W has strong BPD traits, there is a book and several online articles that may help you better evaluate your limited options. I realize you've already done much online reading on the subject. I therefore mention these references only because you may have overlooked a few of them.

 

For a good book, I recommend Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It is written by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger. (The latter wrote the best-selling BPD book, Stop Walking on Eggshells.)

 

For good online articles written by professionals, I suggest you read Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD (Article 9) and Leaving a Partner with BPD (Article 10). Both are available for free at the BPDfamily forum.

 

While you're there at BPDfamily, I would suggest you participate (or at least lurk) at the "Leaving" board and the "Parenting after the Split" board. Also good are these articles: Fathers Divorcing, and High Risk Parenting, and Pain of Breaking Up, and Divorcing a Narcissist.

 

Finally, I recommend you DO NOT try to persuade your W that she has strong BPD traits. If she actually is a BPDer as you believe, she almost certainly would project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist and let him decide what to tell her. As I mentioned earlier, it is unlikely the psych will tell her the name of her disorder if he determines that it is BPD.

[Redhead14]

Let's take everything else out of the equation . . . Your children are your number 1 priority above everything else. The atmosphere in the home has to be stifling for them. There is a saying: It is better for children to be FROM a broken home than IN one.

 

There isn't one single thing, I don't care what a person can come up with, that justifies staying in a dysfunctional relationship especially when children are involved . . . if you are in a toxic relationship, so are they.

[ChickiePops]

I didn't even read the thread. If you have to ask..the answer is yes.

[Sunny85]

Just my personal thoughts. It sounds like she is frustrated by sexual needs or emotional needs she is not getting in this relationship. She fills this emptiness with shopping madly. This might be related to a disorder but it could also be an addiction like any other addiction. She has sexual frustration, she might want different / more/ sex and she is giving you hints but not telling you directly.

 

Don't say: Something is wrong with you! Be nice, friendly and calm ( although she is not, always be the mature one!) and if she makes sexual comments ask her: Why do you say this? I am trying to understand why you say this.

Also tell her calm and friendly that you think its time to talk about the relationship.

 

I don't think she has cheated on you, cause if someone cheats they don't make it so obvious unless they want you to break up with them immediately! She is giving you hints that she is thinking of cheating, thats sure.

 

Good luck!

Edited February 12, 2016 by Sunny85

[RRM321]

I'm inclined to think you're dealing with a psychological issue rather than infidelity. She just sounds like she's lashing out form a place inside her own head.

 

That's not to say they are mutually exclusive but, I doubt she is nurturing another relationship.

 

It's not that hard to uncover cheating. Hiding it requires many favorable advantages (regular work travel, expense accounts, etc.) and even then - people get caught because their behavior turns adolescent.

 

You don't need the technology. A cheaters weaknesses are: secrecy and a need to know where you are and how long you'll be there.

 

Lock-down behavior:

turning the phone off in your presence,

locking it in the car and hiding the car keys,

sleeping with the phone or car keys, etc.

using a PO Box

no longer saving receipts or statements

using cash instead of credit/check

 

Information overload:

When are you working?

What time will you be home?

What do you have to do on the weekend?

They become unusually interested in your routine day or weekend.

[TK19]

Thanks everyone again for the comments. I have considered them extensively and even got a good laugh from some from time to time, all appreciated.

 

Downtowner,...

 

Stop Walking on Eggshells was a book that I 'stumbled on' as I was browsing psychology books at the bookstore. I was looking for anything that could help. One of my plans at the time was to find a book on child psychology as my wife's behavior was so extremely immature that I thought maybe I could apply some of those principles to help deal with her. I instead found the Stop Walking on Eggshells. (the title itself drew me to it)

 

The Stop Walking on Eggshells book was a shockingly accurate portrayal of my wife. The author may have well been living in my house documenting what was going on with her with some variations. (some of the other variations were characteristic of her sister, btw) It's shocking to know that there are so many people out there behaving in this same manner. It's really sad, how much misery is created by these people.

 

I will make sure to get a copy of Splitting next. Thanks!

 

- - - - - -

Redhead

 

In terms of my children, I will say that they are all (all 5) straight-A students, doing well socially, and most of them are athletically inclined, some exceptionally so. No one from outside my home would ever think that the environment that they are growing up in is the "toxic" one I have described.

 

I worry about my kids a lot in the current situation. I also worry about what it would be like if I wasn't around to mediate things. I do recognize that there are some positives as well. We live in a clean house. Laundry, meals, homework is always attended to. Each of my children have dozens and dozens of the same shirts (in different colors), plenty of pants, dozens of shoes (always new - no hand-me-downs), etc... anyway I digress.

 

As they grow older I have noticed that they see and understand more. When they were younger I think they thought the outbursts from their mother was/ is normal and my objections to her behavior, abnormal. As they get older they realize more about how crazy she can be, even siting random mental disorders to characterize her behavior.

 

In a divorce situation, I don't know that I would be successful in "rescuing" my children. It might go the opposite way. You have to understand that if you don't live with the behavior, you might conclude my wife was a great mother.

 

 

- - - - - - -

 

RRM321

 

In terms of the cheating issue, some of the lock down behaviors you described are what I noticed very clearly. That was why I implemented technology, because she wasn't going to tell me anything.

 

I noticed there was a sudden increase in secrecy, especially with her phone. There was a sudden reluctance to go into public with me and a lot of childish, rude behavior... all the things I described in my first post. When looking for a list of top 20 signs your wife is cheating, I could definitely see half of those behaviors, but never any solid, conclusive evidence.