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Dating out of your league


redheaded-squirrel

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redheaded-squirrel

I know, I know - some of you might never believe in "leagues". But I had an interesting online conversation with an older man and he pointed out a problem that I (and other women) may face. I think it makes sense, but I'd like to hear more opinions and whether you think it holds true at all.

 

He contacted me on a "specific" dating site (for the BDSM community). I replied that after reading his profile, I didn't think we were compatible, to which he said "I don't want to scare you, but you are a very intelligent and a rather special woman (at least on the inside), so it would be very hard to find someone who is meant for you.

 

Then an interesting conversation ensued where I asked what should I do, if on top of this, I am not as "special" on the outside. I am no topmodel, dress conservative for my age and I am rather chubby (US size 8). He argued that "it isn't so easy on the marker with men, bcs the more intelligent the woman is (and you are, I won't lie to you), the higher are her expectations for a man. She won't let herself be manipulated or owned (in the BDSM sense) by a fool/a douchebag. And now we already are at the top of the pyramid of men; a lot of those intelligent and good ones are submissives, the dominants are usually married or if not, they are often emotionally/mentally not ok. You don't want that either.

 

The only help for you would be to offer on the outside (looks-wise) what you also offer on the inside (intelligence). If this isn't the case, then it's going to be very very complicated to find someone for you, because on the market, there are a few women who offer both and the top men rather choose them. Such a special man you seek would logically look for an "all in one" woman, an intelligent topmodel. If you are like that, then great. If not, the top men will not want you and you will search in that group in vain for years.

 

Think like the top man - he wants a woman that others lust after and is "valuable" and belongs to him, not a sub who nobody else wants. So your only help is to work on what you have to offer visually, so that it is on par with your intelligence."

 

Do you agree or disagree? Is this really the mechanics of the "men market"? If I understood it correctly, my only help would be to lose weight (and probably a few plastic surgeries). Rather grim future...

Edited by redheaded-squirrel
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Is it just me that find his whole speech quite manipulative! especially after getting rejected.

 

Honestly it's just a personal preference! some men like skinny women, others love chubby ones. imo this guy is just butt-hurt because you rejected him.

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salparadise

He's an idiot with a perspective so narrow that he thinks his was of seeing something is the only way. Pfffft. I guess there are people (like him) who are so superficial that physical characteristics and conventional attractiveness are the first thing they see, but they're just small, narrow-minded munchkins with an overblown sense of entitlement. Perhaps there are things in the BDSM community that are different since it seems to be more about doing things to bodies than relating to people... but I don't subscribe.

 

There is such a thing as market value in dating/mating of course, but it's complex and has many facets. Ultimately, people couple up based on being able to relate mentally, emotionally, and chemically. Attraction plays a part of course, but few evolved people place conventional attractiveness above all else. My opinion, of course.

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They call the dating world "the game" for a reason. Your online interest gave you a manipulative line, don't fall hook-line-and sinker for it. You are toying with a scale, provided by a stranger, to judge your worth based on whose standards for an intelligence level, and by appearance? Who the hell is deciding whether or not you have these things, these attributes, at an acceptable level? You are second guessing your worth based on whose opinion? This is not only complicated, you are deceiving yourself.

 

Here is some "real" advice. 8 is not fat, just to get that out of the way.....I won't waste anymore keystrokes on that topic. That's a healthy weight, 16 is a healthy weight too... (done here)

 

Now about the rest, I'll do it step by step:

 

1. Intelligence: Intelligence is the ability to keep up your side of a conversation. The topics can vary, but in my own opinion, the ability to communicate and use proper grammer, understand feedback and give your own, THIS is intelligence. I don't know what the f this guy thinks you have to possess to be worth something, but there it is. Evaluate yourself, and decide.

 

2. Looks: This is a part of "the game" that can be a pain. Pictures that are 20 years old, and not to mention the thousands of different standards people have for what's beautiful, what's average, and what's below average, are all things that factor in when connecting with someone. What's "pretty" to one man is average to another, get my drift?

 

Your self esteem is fragile, and that makes you soooo vulnerable in this game. I recommend working on that part, like really soon, (now) Know your worth and start tuning up your dating site filter. For instance, the 100 emails you get, probably 50 - 75% are porn addicts and your picture will need to be nude at some point for their satisfaction. Another 20% are probably married or in relationships, that leaves you about 5% to look at closely. Don't waste precious time talking to wastes of time.

 

Now, to each his own, but the BDSM community isn't the best place for someone with self esteem issues. You're a piece of meat - someone is getting off on dominating or submitting, whichever is their fantasy. How is that a foundation for a relationship. It's downright icky, IMO.

 

I tend to come from the conservative view, relationships are based on loving the other person, not sex. Anything other than love, contaminates the relationship and it will not last, and you will end up in the boat YOU'RE in, trying to color yourself in such a way, that you appear to have worth. That's a sham, a house of cards. Don't do it.

Edited by morrowrd
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I think he is generally right.

People in general tend to want the best they can get and for many men that is looks first and the rest follows on later.

If as a "top man" he can attract very good looking women, then he will tend to filter those out as regards intelligence/personality; he will not usually go looking for intelligent, but less attractive women..

 

Of course some men will look for intelligent, potentially high earning, rich women to date/marry and not care so much about looks, as they are primarily attracted to the money.

I once knew a man, a doctor who said his primary aim in university was to find a rich heiress to marry. Her connections would introduce him to a better class of people and elevate his social standing tremendously. It worked, she was no top model but she was polished and she had oodles of cash..

 

There is unwritten rule that "top men" need to have attractive wives to show how rich and successful they are.

Some will choose an intelligent top model whereas others want looks and not care about intelligence, as HE is the top dog and the last thing he would want is a super intelligent wife showing him up...

Edited by elaine567
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If you are so sub-par, why did he approach you?:rolleyes:

 

He's just a manipulative slime bag trying to get in your head, to have you second-guess and regret your decision to reject him. The fact that you actually fell for his crap is pretty scary. It sounds as if your sense of self-worth is pretty low.

 

Block him and keep it moving.

 

By the way, unless you're 3 feet tall, a US size 8 is not chubby.

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redheaded-squirrel
Now, to each his own, but the BDSM community isn't the best place for someone with self esteem issues. You're a piece of meat - someone is getting off on dominating or submitting, whichever is their fantasy. How is that a foundation for a relationship. It's downright icky, IMO.

 

I tend to come from the conservative view, relationships are based on loving the other person, not sex. Anything other than love, contaminates the relationship and it will not last, and you will end up in the boat YOU'RE in, trying to color yourself in such a way, that you appear to have worth. That's a sham, a house of cards. Don't do it.

 

Indeed, it is a very specific community with a very specific dynamics, but I wasn't looking for a conventional relationship there...definitely not. It was all about trying to explore my sexual preferences that I have suppressed for long. It's been hard - especially for someone like me who publicly identifies as a feminist and at the same time tries to accept that she NEEDS this kind of (sexual) interaction.

 

But I had very high standards for my dom. I knew what I definitely didn't want in him and I was looking for someone whom I could respect naturally, not just because he is a dom. This whole BDSM thing has been more about mental than physical aspects for me, and maybe that is why I wasn't successful in my search. Because indeed, 90% of the people on these sites are just plain ****ed up.

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I can't get past the fact that as a US size 8 you classify yourself as chubby. Unless you are only about 5 feet tall that is not chubby at all. I just dropped almost 20 pounds to get back to an 8 & think I look so much better. Even when I was a size 10 I had a belly but nobody would classify me as chubby.

 

 

Different people will find the outsides attractive. If he didn't think you were all that & a bag of chips on the inside & the outside, that's his loss. Move on to a guy who likes all the parts of you. Don't let some guy you "met" on the internet change how you see yourself or damage your self esteem.

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redheaded-squirrel
I know, I know - some of you might never believe in "leagues". But I had an interesting online conversation with an older man and he pointed out a problem that I (and other women) may face. I think it makes sense, but I'd like to hear more opinions and whether you think it holds true at all.

 

He contacted me on a "specific" dating site (for the BDSM community). I replied that after reading his profile, I didn't think we were compatible, to which he said "I don't want to scare you, but you are a very intelligent and a rather special woman (at least on the inside), so it would be very hard to find someone who is meant for you.

 

Then an interesting conversation ensued where I asked what should I do, if on top of this, I am not as "special" on the outside. I am no topmodel, dress conservative for my age and I am rather chubby (US size 8). He argued that "it isn't so easy on the marker with men, bcs the more intelligent the woman is (and you are, I won't lie to you), the higher are her expectations for a man. She won't let herself be manipulated or owned (in the BDSM sense) by a fool/a douchebag. And now we already are at the top of the pyramid of men; a lot of those intelligent and good ones are submissives, the dominants are usually married or if not, they are often emotionally/mentally not ok. You don't want that either.

 

The only help for you would be to offer on the outside (looks-wise) what you also offer on the inside (intelligence). If this isn't the case, then it's going to be very very complicated to find someone for you, because on the market, there are a few women who offer both and the top men rather choose them. Such a special man you seek would logically look for an "all in one" woman, an intelligent topmodel. If you are like that, then great. If not, the top men will not want you and you will search in that group in vain for years.

 

Think like the top man - he wants a woman that others lust after and is "valuable" and belongs to him, not a sub who nobody else wants. So your only help is to work on what you have to offer visually, so that it is on par with your intelligence."

 

Do you agree or disagree? Is this really the mechanics of the "men market"? If I understood it correctly, my only help would be to lose weight (and probably a few plastic surgeries). Rather grim future...

To clarify one thing. It seems as if I touched upon a rather sensitive subject by classifying myself as chubby and it seems as if there is some sort of weird tendency to brush reality off as "low self-esteem." I mean, for God's sake: I am an EU size 40, so that's usually a US size 8 or 10 AND I am 5'2" AND I think it is a perfectly normal observation that I am chubby, because what I have are not ideal proportions and I could be much slimmer. I think this is an objective judgement, not something to be attributed to low self-esteem. Stop the political correctness! I am naming myself as I am, objectively - there is no need to brush it off as low self-esteem. This kind of approach doesn't help anyone. It only gives false hope to some women that they can get any man they want when in fact they cannot, because there are so many other equally intelligent, but more beautiful women to choose from.

 

And to say that there are men who will like me as I am? Sure, but in 99% of cases they are not those from the top of the pyramid. Nobody has yet pointed this out, but don't you think that MY EXPECTATIONS for a man and MY OFFER (what I can offer him as a woman) are very much mismatched??

Edited by redheaded-squirrel
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Sorry. You are right that there is a difference between knowing yourself & having an objective perspective vs. having low self esteem. I clearly have some issues of my own around weight & projected them onto you.

 

 

That said, I still think you need to find somebody who thinks you are terrific on the inside and the outside.

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I have been around the block a few times in my 53 years and this just sounds to me like a good ol' fashioned manipulator who found some gal's weak underbelly and is trying to silver-tongue his way into scoring some poon.

 

It's no more complicated than that.

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todreaminblue

i am a submissive

 

but my reply comes from something my mum told me not from the bdsm community.....most men dont care about your education level or how intelligent you are what you need to do is look the same as when he fell in love with you..

 

there's truth in what my mum said....even with religion they tell you to look your best for your partner ..look your best...at the same time telling you to love the inner person...its a bit bi polar.....i think it takes all types...some care some dont..and thats ok...no wrong no right way....

 

what i can say about this guy that told you that is he was negging you.....you probably continued the conversation past what you would have.....and eh continued to try to keep the door open as long as he possibly could by shoving his fat foot in there....claiming a mentor role.....you the teachers pet.....backhanded compliments....from an alpha huh...stuff him mate.....slimy.....

 

and if i get you right you think us size eight is chubby...dear heaven above..so im guessing size two is simply slim and size zero non existance is best.... minus qualities are models??????

 

 

size eight here is size ten...marilyn munro was a size 14 at one stage.....you put marilyn munro look alike in a bdsm society and watch the drool form swimming pools......curves look good tied on racks...you dont want to disappear into the rack...look im kidding.....im not into that scene anymore used to be...i still like submission...but not that scene....

 

but if you feel grim about anything you have to change like shave off a breast lip fillers ......booty job whatever......then why you are iin the bdsm scene is no longer relevant.....its not meant to make you feel bad.....or grim or uncomfortable......the guy negged you .....dont let him decide what you are or who you are he knows crap about you really....maybe its not your scene anymore...maybe you have outgrown it thats why you are starting to question.....not the fact if you are good enough but ....that its not good enough for you...............good luck...happy trails...deb

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^ I disagree. I think many men want a woman who is smart and who share similar values and interests. Not just someone who is pretty. Pretty gets you only so far.

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But regarding this particular topic. This guy is manipulative and was just trying to make op second guess herself by saying it will be difficult for her to find a man (and she should just go with this guy). Its a red flag. And I wouldnt spent 2 minutes of my time thinking about it. Its a classic: you will never find anyone better than me and no one else will want you.

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redheaded-squirrel
yeah, ask Melania Trump.

Her "pretty" got her perhaps too far :) Or, much further than she ever imagined.

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Ruby Slippers

Every study shows that men on dating sites send 90% of messages to the women they rate 8 to 10. The #1 factor in landing a desirable man is looks. Intelligence and character are icing on the cake. Studies have also shown that most men don't care if a woman isn't smart or is even mentally ill, as long as she looks good.

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Um, to me this guy sounds like a con man, like those you see on Dr. Phil conning old ladies out of their money. He's too verbose. He doesn't even know you and he's flattering you. I would just block him and not look back.

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CaliforniaGirl
Is it just me that find his whole speech quite manipulative! especially after getting rejected.

 

Honestly it's just a personal preference! some men like skinny women, others love chubby ones. imo this guy is just butt-hurt because you rejected him.

 

THIS. OMG.

 

Ever heard of negging?

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CaliforniaGirl
I think he is generally right.

People in general tend to want the best they can get and for many men that is looks first and the rest follows on later.

If as a "top man" he can attract very good looking women, then he will tend to filter those out as regards intelligence/personality; he will not usually go looking for intelligent, but less attractive women..

 

Of course some men will look for intelligent, potentially high earning, rich women to date/marry and not care so much about looks, as they are primarily attracted to the money.

I once knew a man, a doctor who said his primary aim in university was to find a rich heiress to marry. Her connections would introduce him to a better class of people and elevate his social standing tremendously. It worked, she was no top model but she was polished and she had oodles of cash..

 

There is unwritten rule that "top men" need to have attractive wives to show how rich and successful they are.

Some will choose an intelligent top model whereas others want looks and not care about intelligence, as HE is the top dog and the last thing he would want is a super intelligent wife showing him up...

 

This may be true, at least for some men, but if a actual "Top Man" as you say doesn't have to put out his claws and attempt to tear a woman down and instill fear in her ("OMG I'm NEVER going to find anybody, PLUS I'm apparently not cute!") in order to get her to sleep with him. A real Top Dog will have the women fighting over him. Yes, even online.

 

This guy was at the ready with his manipulative, and transparent, Roosh-style speech so he has obviously been down this road before: he's not a very attractive guy so he has to play games, harsh ones, in order to ever get laid at all.

 

The OP is wise for so many reasons to move on.

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Every study shows that men on dating sites send 90% of messages to the women they rate 8 to 10. The #1 factor in landing a desirable man is looks. Intelligence and character are icing on the cake. Studies have also shown that most men don't care if a woman isn't smart or is even mentally ill, as long as she looks good.

 

If this was the case only pretty people would have kids.

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hippychick3
Um, to me this guy sounds like a con man, like those you see on Dr. Phil conning old ladies out of their money. He's too verbose. He doesn't even know you and he's flattering you. I would just block him and not look back.

 

Exactly. And his intense verbosity is the exact opposite of who you'd want to date. I went on a date once with someone like this, and I was uncomfortable but not confident enough at the time to call him out on his BS. He emailed me after the date continuing the same dialogue, and I then told him I didn't think we were a match. It was a huge relief and a lesson for me. The next guy was a breath of fresh air. Don't waste your time getting into these unnecessary dialogues with strangers. He was definitely manipulating you.

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I'm curious to what you wrote on your profile did you list your IQ score?

 

I know I missed the point of why you wrote this but, this is pretty out there.

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THIS. OMG.

 

Ever heard of negging?

 

Negging is one of pua routines, heard of it yes. But if i had to make a wild guess i'd say this guy is actually emotionally abusive.

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