Is this good?

[ZA Dater]

Ok, long story short. I arranged a track day for a couple of cars, as it happens I got to drive a few cars on the day. There were two ladies attending as guest and I ended up taking the one around the track.

 

 

As you can imagine a red Italian car around the track at speed is somewhat exciting, needless to say she loved it and so did I. I suggested she and her friend join me for lunch with the group. The inherent problem here was which do I pick, both were nice looking, one was still a student the other had just started working. I picked the one who went in the car with me though perhaps I picked wrong and I felt quite bad because lunch turned into as close to flirting and banter as I can do.

 

 

The result

: she laughed a lot

: she smiled a lot

: she played with her hair a lot.

: she invited me to the family farm

: she is new to the city so I offered to show her some great places.

 

 

I tried to keep them both in the conversation but lets just say

 

 

"are you multi talented" and it was nice to just get so much attention. And in what is a first for me, I asked for her number and got it. Had brief chat on whats app but will leave it till Monday and then phone and see if I can meet up with her next week.

 

 

Part of me wishes I could have flirted with both of them but I got the feeling her friend was quite keen too.

 

 

True story, while all this was going on I thought about the advice dispenses here and tried to actually use as much of it as I could.

 

 

Whether she will go out with me I don't know but based on the above I think I might have a chance...which is more than I usually have.

[Jj66]

Wow. Sounds like a promising starts. Good luck.

[elaine567]

YOU took the initiative. A big step forward.

Well done.

[ZA Dater]

YOU took the initiative. A big step forward.

Well done.

 

Yes all the while thinking of the advice given here.

 

 

Having a platform to start talking off did make a huge difference and it was in an environment where I am supremely confident. Add in all the people complimenting me on a superb event while she sat next to me.

 

 

I'll phone her on Monday and see what can be arranged, one thing I did do was try banter and I kept it light and playful.

[goldway90]

You're doing well, going after what you want is the way to go. good luck

[BaileyB]

This is very good! I hope it goes well.

 

And for future reference, women don't like it when you flirt with their friends. As much as you may want to keep your options open, you need to pursue one woman and know that if you try to play the field... Both women will probably walk away.

 

Good luck!

[ZA Dater]

This is very good! I hope it goes well.

 

And for future reference, women don't like it when you flirt with their friends. As much as you may want to keep your options open, you need to pursue one woman and know that if you try to play the field... Both women will probably walk away.

 

Good luck!

 

Good to know, I basically decided to go for the one I had spent the most time with.

[BaileyB]

There is a saying... "Men may come and go but girlfriends are forever."

 

Just have fun and get to know this woman. It sounds like you are off to a good start.

 

And even if it doesn't actually go anywhere, learn from the experience and use it to build your confidence. Best wishes.

[ZA Dater]

Some further advice please.

 

I am going to give her a call tomorrow. I ruled out text simply because if you ask someone in a call they are less likely to say no.

 

Where to take here?

 

She likes food and she is new to the city so I thought about a very chic place I know which will be a nice experience for her. Being new and from a farm originally the big city is a new place so almost everything will be different. I like this scenario.

 

I also do want to avoid something that isn't fun but I think if I can pull off the same laughing and joking then I think it will be ok.

 

The way I do things isn't conventional but I am going to try BE conventional this time.

 

Any suggestions?

[BaileyB]

Just my opinion, but I would try to relax and just think about doing something fun with her. Create an experience that you can share together.

 

No need to spend a lot of money or take her somewhere "special." I once dated a guy who didn't have a lot of experience with dating. He was very "formal" - doing what he thought he should do (ie opening my car door, taking me out to fine dining restaurants). It was really hard to connect with him because I just wanted to relax and get to know him. So, don't feel like you have to spend money or do anything special - this should almost be reserved for a special occasion when you are actually in a relationship, in my opinion.

 

Is there a cool restaurant or patio where you can go? Is there something unique or fun you can do or show her in the city? She will feel good with you, if she can relax and have fun with you. Have fun!

[ZA Dater]

Just my opinion, but I would try to relax and just think about doing something fun with her. Create an experience that you can share together.

 

No need to spend a lot of money or take her somewhere "special." I once dated a guy who didn't have a lot of experience with dating. He was very "formal" - doing what he thought he should do (ie opening my car door, taking me out to fine dining restaurants). It was really hard to connect with him because I just wanted to relax and get to know him. So, don't feel like you have to spend money or do anything special - this should almost be reserved for a special occasion when you are actually in a relationship, in my opinion.

 

Is there a cool restaurant or patio where you can go? Is there something unique or fun you can do or show her in the city? She will feel good with you, if she can relax and have fun with you. Have fun!

 

I had two ideas in mind.

 

1: Being the upmarket type place which considering the event I met her at was upmarket was my first idea.

 

2: There is another food type place, not the best looking but the food is good and it has a nice vibe being a pavement type café.

 

I really don't know which to be honest because I am conscious of the first impressions matter mantra. Money is really irrelevant here for the most part because I get dates so rarely.

 

Bold part is the idea I had in my mind.

[normal person]

Some further advice please.

I am going to give her a call tomorrow. I ruled out text simply because if you ask someone in a call they are less likely to say no.

 

Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with calling someone, but ideally you should want them to see you because they want to see you too, not because they felt pressured to as a result of a phone call. If she does feel pressured (not saying it'll be the case, but just keep this in mind) to the point where she agrees, she'll probably give an excuse to cancel later on. Again, I'm not saying this is what's going to happen, but when you travel down this road with this line of thinking, I can see where it might lead.

[Life lessons]

Some further advice please.

 

I am going to give her a call tomorrow. I ruled out text simply because if you ask someone in a call they are less likely to say no.

 

Where to take here?

 

She likes food and she is new to the city so I thought about a very chic place I know which will be a nice experience for her. Being new and from a farm originally the big city is a new place so almost everything will be different. I like this scenario.

 

I also do want to avoid something that isn't fun but I think if I can pull off the same laughing and joking then I think it will be ok.

 

The way I do things isn't conventional but I am going to try BE conventional this time.

 

Any suggestions?

 

 

Wouldn't you want to know if she truly wants to go out....not just less likely to say only because it's via phone? I would text her....if she wants to, I think she will either way, but as stated, if she says yes and truly doesn't want to then she will probably end up cancelling and using an excuse. Good luck to you!

[ZA Dater]

Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with calling someone, but ideally you should want them to see you because they want to see you too, not because they felt pressured to as a result of a phone call. If she does feel pressured (not saying it'll be the case, but just keep this in mind) to the point where she agrees, she'll probably give an excuse to cancel later on. Again, I'm not saying this is what's going to happen, but when you travel down this road with this line of thinking, I can see where it might lead.

 

She didn't pick up so I texted. No answer so yeh. Thanks everyone for the advice. Looks like I am getting getting the famous deja vu t shirt.

[ZA Dater]

Firstly, read "normal persons" posts carefully. You might not agree with them but for the most part I think they are on the money. (there is a deliberate play on words there)

 

I had a wonderful opportunity this weekend and it only happened because of the most superficial of things, had I not had that I would not have had the opportunity.

 

The problem as ever is even when I brought my A game out and things went well it ultimately still flopped like a pancake on the floor and nothing came of a nice time.

 

My point here is 'things" are more important than 'you", this entire scenario was proof of that, without the 'things" she would not have even spoken to me so there is an advantage to be gained by playing at the more superficial level of attraction, in fact I'd wager all attraction for most people is superficial.

 

Why is searching futile for a % of people.

 

1: You can go well and still get a horrid result

2: You never know what you didn't do great so cant improve

3: You cant meet people if you are socially inept or have no talking points at all.

4: If all you experience is bad that will radiate from you and that shadow is nearly impossible to vanquish.

5 If you mind set is wrong you wont ever succeed, what the right one is I have no idea.

6: You need something tangible to make yourself attractive.

 

In short I think the search isn't for me at least until I can bring really tangible attractive things to the table which can give me a head start, if that never happens then so be it. To think you go out and charm someone with your personality is in my opinion misguided and patently untrue.

 

Its about what you have not who you are.

[WaitingForBardot]

Firstly, read "normal persons" posts carefully. You might not agree with them but for the most part I think they are on the money. (there is a deliberate play on words there)

 

I had a wonderful opportunity this weekend and it only happened because of the most superficial of things, had I not had that I would not have had the opportunity.

 

The problem as ever is even when I brought my A game out and things went well it ultimately still flopped like a pancake on the floor and nothing came of a nice time.

 

My point here is 'things" are more important than 'you", this entire scenario was proof of that, without the 'things" she would not have even spoken to me so there is an advantage to be gained by playing at the more superficial level of attraction, in fact I'd wager all attraction for most people is superficial.

 

Why is searching futile for a % of people.

 

1: You can go well and still get a horrid result

2: You never know what you didn't do great so cant improve

3: You cant meet people if you are socially inept or have no talking points at all.

4: If all you experience is bad that will radiate from you and that shadow is nearly impossible to vanquish.

5 If you mind set is wrong you wont ever succeed, what the right one is I have no idea.

6: You need something tangible to make yourself attractive.

 

In short I think the search isn't for me at least until I can bring really tangible attractive things to the table which can give me a head start, if that never happens then so be it. To think you go out and charm someone with your personality is in my opinion misguided and patently untrue.

 

Its about what you have not who you are.

This may be correct, but perhaps you misunderstood how these superficial things exerted their effect. Maybe their impact on the object of your affection was indirect. IOW, it was not their impact on her, but actually their impact on you, manifesting in how you carried yourself, behaved, etc.

 

Just a thought...

[normal person]

Firstly, read "normal persons" posts carefully. You might not agree with them but for the most part I think they are on the money. (there is a deliberate play on words there)

 

I should just state that I don't necessarily like all the things I suggest, but I know the harsh realities of the world and I'm a fan of doing the uncomfortable and inconvenient in order to get what you want. It's usually a much better option than the alternative. The sad truth is that the market doesn't care about you, the sooner you accept that, the more affective you'll be.

 

I had a wonderful opportunity this weekend and it only happened because of the most superficial of things, had I not had that I would not have had the opportunity.

 

As hollow and ultimately meaningless as it is, superficial things are exciting to a lot of people. You might have to play along even if you have a hard time getting on board with them (as I usually do).

 

The problem as ever is even when I brought my A game out and things went well it ultimately still flopped like a pancake on the floor and nothing came of a nice time.

 

My point here is 'things" are more important than 'you", this entire scenario was proof of that, without the 'things" she would not have even spoken to me so there is an advantage to be gained by playing at the more superficial level of attraction, in fact I'd wager all attraction for most people is superficial.

 

I wouldn't say that. I'd say to some, both are equally important. There are plenty of women out there who will appreciate you for who you are and not what you have. The thing is, you usually need to have "bait" to gain their attention -- be it something you do, something you say, something you own, something else about you, or a combination of these sorts of things. Just because someone is impressed with a fancy car that grabs their attention doesn't mean they don't care about who drives it, there are a lot of factors to consider.

 

Women are often attracted to success because it demonstrates an ability to acquire resources. Superficial things are indicators of that, and they can also be exciting. You don't have to be flashy if you're confident that your value can be demonstrated in other ways.

 

In short I think the search isn't for me at least until I can bring really tangible attractive things to the table which can give me a head start, if that never happens then so be it. To think you go out and charm someone with your personality is in my opinion misguided and patently untrue.

 

If you're a confident, productive member of society who isn't a total pushover, who steps out of his comfort zone and is willing to learn from mistakes, is willing to put himself in the best positions to succeed, things shouldn't be this hard. You make it sound like you can't get a girlfriend until you drive a Ferrari. Most people don't have Ferraris yet are still able to pair up.

 

Maybe these girls just didn't like you that much and there's nothing you could've done about it? Think about the percentage of people who you think are attractive, who you get along with and would like to date. I'm guessing it's probably around 3%. So extrapolate that to other people and figure they might have the same percentage. Then ask yourself, what're the odds you're one of their 3%? Not very likely. In the end, there was probably nothing you could do -- not because you're not a great guy, but just because it was a non-starter from the beginning. Really the only people you can be concerned with are those whose 3% you fall into, and a few more battleground people who are on the fence who you can win over.

 

 

Its about what you have not who you are.

 

I should correct you: this is not really what I advocate. My stance is that there's a level of superficiality you have to concede to to cover most of your bases, not that women only care about superficial things.

 

For example, a woman might think you're really funny, but if your shoes are full of holes and dirty, she might not be able to get over that. A woman might think you're really handsome, but if you work at McDonald's, she might not be able to get over that. The reason I suggest subscribing to a certain level of superficiality is to avoid these problems -- most people can't overcome them. If you don't look presentable or meet her base requirement for success you're going to have a very, very hard time winning her over. Best just to accept it and save yourself the trouble. If you want women that badly, these are the sorts of things you need to do. You need to keep pace with the rest of the men who are after her. So those are the sorts of superficial things I think you have to accept: looking presentable and having a job. Anything "more" can give you an advantage but if you don't have "more," it's not the end of the world.

 

That being said, that's just what you need to get a foot in the door most of the time. After you meet those prerequisites, you need to engage her emotionally. Looking nice and being able to provide isn't going to take you far if there's no substance behind it.

[elaine567]

Its about what you have not who you are.

 

I am unclear as to how you can deduce she is all about "things", when all you have to go on is, you met her on the 18th you got her number, then you phoned her on the Monday 20th to no reply, then sent a text, again to no reply.

 

Who knows why she has decided to go silent on you?

There could be million different reasons...

[ZA Dater]

I am unclear as to how you can deduce she is all about "things", when all you have to go on is, you met her on the 18th you got her number, then you phoned her on the Monday 20th to no reply, then sent a text, again to no reply.

 

Who knows why she has decided to go silent on you?

There could be million different reasons...

 

Who knows and who really cares either. Valuable lesson learnt here. I got a pathetic reply to say the least along the lines of "I need to see what I have planned" someone who is keen knows enough about their life to know if they are fee and not need hours to deliberate.

 

She might not be about things but really where I sit now it's easy to see how people are baited by things and how things can open doors.

[BaileyB]

ZA Dater,

 

Sad to hear that it didn't work out for you as you had planned.

 

But, very disappointed to see that you have chosen to retreat into your anger and blame any number of things that are completely irrelevant to why this date didn't work for you. I can't even begin to tell you how unattractive, as a potential romantic partner and as a person, this kind of attitude is.

 

Somethings, things don't work out. To date is to take a risk, to put yourself out there... Someone's it works, but not everyone will like you or want to go out with you.

 

I know it's discouraging, but you should be celebrating the fact that you put yourself out there and took a risk. Do it again, and it may work out differently.

[ZA Dater]

ZA Dater,

 

Sad to hear that it didn't work out for you as you had planned.

 

But, very disappointed to see that you have chosen to retreat into your anger and blame any number of things that are completely irrelevant to why this date didn't work for you. I can't even begin to tell you how unattractive, as a potential romantic partner and as a person, this kind of attitude is.

 

Somethings, things don't work out. To date is to take a risk, to put yourself out there... Someone's it works, but not everyone will like you or want to go out with you.

 

I know it's discouraging, but you should be celebrating the fact that you put yourself out there and took a risk. Do it again, and it may work out differently.

 

 

Unfortunately it always turns out exactly the same way and no it never works for me ever.

 

 

Such is life.

[ZA Dater]

I should just state that I don't necessarily like all the things I suggest, but I know the harsh realities of the world and I'm a fan of doing the uncomfortable and inconvenient in order to get what you want. It's usually a much better option than the alternative. The sad truth is that the market doesn't care about you, the sooner you accept that, the more affective you'll be.

Yes and the more I read, the more I feel you simply spot on in your assessment. Seemingly the less one cares the better.

 

As hollow and ultimately meaningless as it is, superficial things are exciting to a lot of people. You might have to play along even if you have a hard time getting on board with them (as I usually do).

 

Agreed, seems the most alluring this is superficial status.

 

I wouldn't say that. I'd say to some, both are equally important. There are plenty of women out there who will appreciate you for who you are and not what you have. The thing is, you usually need to have "bait" to gain their attention -- be it something you do, something you say, something you own, something else about you, or a combination of these sorts of things. Just because someone is impressed with a fancy car that grabs their attention doesn't mean they don't care about who drives it, there are a lot of factors to consider.

Not sure I agree here, I agree you need bait but if people cared then you simply wouldn't need this bait to begin with. I disagree that the qualities of a person mean more than superficial things.

 

Women are often attracted to success because it demonstrates an ability to acquire resources. Superficial things are indicators of that, and they can also be exciting. You don't have to be flashy if you're confident that your value can be demonstrated in other ways.

You said it above, you need bait and no matter how nice you are its never going to be enough in the absence of superficial things.

If you're a confident, productive member of society who isn't a total pushover, who steps out of his comfort zone and is willing to learn from mistakes, is willing to put himself in the best positions to succeed, things shouldn't be this hard. You make it sound like you can't get a girlfriend until you drive a Ferrari. Most people don't have Ferraris yet are still able to pair up.

Yes I guess they do. How many actually land up with people they want versus settling for whoever likes them.

 

Maybe these girls just didn't like you that much and there's nothing you could've done about it? Think about the percentage of people who you think are attractive, who you get along with and would like to date. I'm guessing it's probably around 3%. So extrapolate that to other people and figure they might have the same percentage. Then ask yourself, what're the odds you're one of their 3%? Not very likely. In the end, there was probably nothing you could do -- not because you're not a great guy, but just because it was a non-starter from the beginning. Really the only people you can be concerned with are those whose 3% you fall into, and a few more battleground people who are on the fence who you can win over.

 

I accept this but again its really futile, if you cannot win people over than its pretty much pointless to even try. More fruitful to simply accept the limitations of what one can do and do something else. Oh and its great of the 3% you fall into are the most un attractive people imaginable. Huge confidence feel good factor that.

 

I should correct you: this is not really what I advocate. My stance is that there's a level of superficiality you have to concede to to cover most of your bases, not that women only care about superficial things.

I'd it depends on the individual person but superficial is important to lesser and greater degrees.

 

For example, a woman might think you're really funny, but if your shoes are full of holes and dirty, she might not be able to get over that. A woman might think you're really handsome, but if you work at McDonald's, she might not be able to get over that. The reason I suggest subscribing to a certain level of superficiality is to avoid these problems -- most people can't overcome them. If you don't look presentable or meet her base requirement for success you're going to have a very, very hard time winning her over. Best just to accept it and save yourself the trouble. If you want women that badly, these are the sorts of things you need to do. You need to keep pace with the rest of the men who are after her. So those are the sorts of superficial things I think you have to accept: looking presentable and having a job. Anything "more" can give you an advantage but if you don't have "more," it's not the end of the world.

 

Its probably best I don't comment on this lest in my venting mood I offend many people.

 

That being said, that's just what you need to get a foot in the door most of the time. After you meet those prerequisites, you need to engage her emotionally. Looking nice and being able to provide isn't going to take you far if there's no substance behind it.

 

Ok there is a fair amount of venting in the above, suffice to say I am hardly in the best of moods, from something to nothing. Of course with no reason either and people ask why people who never have success become bitter. I'd say the answer is fairly obvious.

 

With that being said and the above considered I am more of the opinion that pretty much everything in this world is bought, either tangibly or intangibly.

Edited February 21, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote formatting ~6

[normal person]

Not sure I agree here, I agree you need bait but if people cared then you simply wouldn't need this bait to begin with. I disagree that the qualities of a person mean more than superficial things.

 

Everyone's in it for themselves. They don't care unless they have a reason to; unless you provide them value somehow. You might value a woman's beauty and intelligence and that's why you try to date her. Odds are you wouldn't try to date a woman who you ascribed no such value. That's the "bait" that draws people in, the prospect of that person enriching your life somehow.

 

And since most people aren't beautiful, rich, talented, etc, yet most people have found partners, I think we can lay this "superficiality trumps all" argument to rest. Survival and reproduction instinct trumps all. Superficial things are just indicators of resources (money) and health/fertility (beauty). Yet people without those things still managed to pair up because the biological imperative to survive and reproduce is so strong that even people with some resources, not even excess, superficial ones, still will pair up. These are just average people, not just rich, powerful, beautiful ones. Superficial things are advantageous in the market if you have them, but clearly not everyone does, and most people still manage.

 

 

 

You said it above, you need bait and no matter how nice you are its never going to be enough in the absence of superficial things. Yes I guess they do. How many actually land up with people they want versus settling for whoever likes them.

 

Not sure exactly what I said earlier, but I only meant the bold and the underlined is your interpretation. You need bait, but not necessarily superficial bait. But a prerequisite for the bait is exposure, visibility. The bait could be as simple as making an insightful point in class and demonstrating your intelligence to someone, or having an attractive "aura." If you ask women in this forum what things about men they find attractive, I'm sure you'll find a wide range of incredibly odd, immaterial, obscure things, and most of them won't be "a nice car."

 

I accept this but again its really futile, if you cannot win people over than its pretty much pointless to even try. More fruitful to simply accept the limitations of what one can do and do something else. Oh and its great of the 3% you fall into are the most un attractive people imaginable. Huge confidence feel good factor that.

 

I think deploying self awareness and accepting your own limitations is good, but within the sphere of attraction there's another angle you can work. So you're not X, but you might be Y or Z. And women's tastes are varied to the point where there are people out there who love Y and Z.

 

I'd it depends on the individual person but superficial is important to lesser and greater degrees.

 

My thesis is basically that you can't deny that a base level of superficiality is present in most people, (even yourself). If you:

- Dress and groom yourself presentably

- Have a decent and/or respectable job

- Are confident, not a doormat

- Provide some value to others

- Enjoy your life and aren't bitter and spiteful

 

...then there's likely someone out there for you. There is an element of superficiality in this list. The market doesn't see the beauty on the inside of every individual right away, or sometimes at all. You need to be presentable and appeal to the base superficialities of other people first -- but that doesn't mean your personal traits don't matter.

 

 

With that being said and the above considered I am more of the opinion that pretty much everything in this world is bought, either tangibly or intangibly.

 

Every human is just trying to survive on a competitive planet with limited resources, not be nice to the most deserving individuals. If you provide someone with value -- something that will enrich their lives (survival, safety, reproduction, comfort, entertainment, luxury -- basically in that hierarchical order), then they will value you in return. Expecting them to value you "just because" is turning a blind eye to the competitive and selfish nature of life on Earth.

 

I'm not a biologist or sociologist, these are just my two cents based on observations and 30 years of experiencing it for myself. Anyone else can feel free to correct me.

[Scarlett.O'hara]

Who knows and who really cares either. Valuable lesson learnt here. I got a pathetic reply to say the least along the lines of "I need to see what I have planned" someone who is keen knows enough about their life to know if they are fee and not need hours to deliberate.

 

I might be inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt, based on the fact that you didn't meet on a dating sight, so she may not be actively looking for a date. However, she did appear to like you enough to give you her number. She may have been nervous or not ready to go out on a date. You really don't know. If that is the case, you may just need to take things slowly.

 

For that reason I would advise you to respond politely and positively, leaving the offer open for another time.

[ZA Dater]

I might be inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt, based on the fact that you didn't meet on a dating sight, so she may not be actively looking for a date. However, she did appear to like you enough to give you her number. She may have been nervous or not ready to go out on a date. You really don't know. If that is the case, you may just need to take things slowly.

 

For that reason I would advise you to respond politely and positively, leaving the offer open for another time.

 

It's done. Not interested in begging people and grovelling for dates.