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Old 7th April 2016, 1:08 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Rejected Rosebud View Post
I don't think you understood my question, so I'll rephrase it:

To guys complaining about women who don't give them "a chance":

1) Are you willing to give women you don't find attractive AT ALL "chances"?

2) If your answer is "no," then why the double standard?
I think the problem here is most women don't seem to advocate wanting a really hot, physically attractive guy and instead are emphasizing that the non-superficial aspects are a lot more important. Sure some women do make it plain obvious that they want a really hot guy...but not all do. So then you're typical "nice guy" gets upset when he gets rejected because he thinks he has all these important non-superficial characteristics. It might be easier if women that really want a hot guy, make that clearly known in their online dating profiles That way I can avoid sending them a message....
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Old 7th April 2016, 1:15 PM   #47
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Seems to be a lot of black and white thinking, women turn down "nice guys" but end up with handsome, hot, bad guys who treat them mean.
It's like, as women, we have exactly two choices:

1) a guy who won't beat us up or cheat on us, but to whom we are not attracted one bit

2) a guy who will beat us and cheat on us.
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Old 7th April 2016, 1:16 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by SwordofFlame View Post
I think the problem here is most women don't seem to advocate wanting a really hot, physically attractive guy and instead are emphasizing that the non-superficial aspects are a lot more important. Sure some women do make it plain obvious that they want a really hot guy...but not all do. So then you're typical "nice guy" gets upset when he gets rejected because he thinks he has all these important non-superficial characteristics. It might be easier if women that really want a hot guy, make that clearly known in their online dating profiles That way I can avoid sending them a message....
But ... but ... but ... the guy really doesn't have to be really hot and physically attractive! We just have to feel attracted to him!!
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Old 7th April 2016, 1:39 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by SwordofFlame View Post
I think the problem here is most women don't seem to advocate wanting a really hot, physically attractive guy and instead are emphasizing that the non-superficial aspects are a lot more important. Sure some women do make it plain obvious that they want a really hot guy...but not all do. So then you're typical "nice guy" gets upset when he gets rejected because he thinks he has all these important non-superficial characteristics. It might be easier if women that really want a hot guy, make that clearly known in their online dating profiles That way I can avoid sending them a message....
It's usually all about matching pairs, so if you are a 7 do not go chasing 10s, 10s will have the ability to get "hot" guys so you are on to a loser right away.
Of course there are exceptions, but they are exceptions, chances are the exception is not going to be you.

There is a whole lot of other factors that may ramp up a guy's attraction value or lower it, so it is not all purely looks.
Class, education, money, earning potential, confidence, personality, fun factor, etc. all play a role. People tend to fit in best with people who are similar to themselves, similar back ground, similar family, similar education, similar interests, similar sense of humour... etc - A guy your mum will like or a girl who fits right into your family.
Again there are exceptions but no-one can bank on exceptions.
Boxes get ticked on first meeting, and if an important one is missing then it is a no-go.
The problem some people have is that they over estimate or under estimate their own worth, so pitch to the wrong audience.
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Old 7th April 2016, 2:56 PM   #50
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As I've said 100 times already, no, they're not getting "no" guys, and even if they were getting "no" guys, then they prefer that to getting a guy they hate. If they didn't prefer it, they wouldn't do it. Get that through your head.



Did you ever think that maybe she has her own standards and thoughts about what she wants in a partner and has every right to try and fulfill them?


To want to know a person, you have to first be attracted to them and find them appealing. If you don't, there's no point in getting to know them. Why don't you look on OKCupid and go out with every single girl in your city regardless of job, looks, and personality in order to get to know them? Answer that question without dodging it for the third time. You probably don't want to because you have no interest in them by looking at their profile. So you decided you don't want to go out with them because you have no interest in them and you aren't attracted to them.

Now answer this: What's the difference between deciding that after looking at their page for 5 seconds and actually meeting them and talking for an hour, and then deciding you don't want to go out with them because you have no interest in them and you aren't attracted to them. People who go out with you, regardless of how long or how many times, are the ones giving you more of a chance.
I agree with all the above. Well said. I have come across the attitude on forums before that women should have to take whoever they can get if they don't get the guys they like, so there's enough to go around. Well, sorry, but maybe some women are more willing to do that than others. Someone codependent might be willing to do that, but most women I know would rather be alone than to be in a sexual relationship with someone they are not attracted to, and it doesn't matter how good they think they are in bed, because sex isn't the #1 goal of most women and they can always get themselves off. And I guess that's why it's seems so crazy that men get so desperate about finding someone to have sex with. Good grief, most single women over 45, which is their sexual prime, would still rather be with no one than with someone they found unattractive on whatever level. You certainly can't say that of men in their sexual prime late teens/early 20s. It's like a feeding frenzy and they will often sleep with anyone willing if that's the only way they can get sex. And THAT is why men think women ought to think the same way, but we don't, and you can't make us!
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Old 7th April 2016, 3:00 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by SwordofFlame View Post
I think the problem here is most women don't seem to advocate wanting a really hot, physically attractive guy and instead are emphasizing that the non-superficial aspects are a lot more important. Sure some women do make it plain obvious that they want a really hot guy...but not all do. So then you're typical "nice guy" gets upset when he gets rejected because he thinks he has all these important non-superficial characteristics. It might be easier if women that really want a hot guy, make that clearly known in their online dating profiles That way I can avoid sending them a message....
Thank you. That's all I way saying.

Words and actions. If you want an attractive guy just stay so. There's nothing bad about saying what you want.

When people say, "I have a good job, I work out... Why can't I attract this and that"

It's not an equation. There's no formula. You can only control you.
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Old 7th April 2016, 3:11 PM   #52
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Did you ever think that maybe she has her own standards and thoughts about what she wants in a partner and has every right to try and fulfill them?
She has the right to have her own standards. But that doesn't mean the way she's going about finding someone who meets those standards makes any sense. The instant spark requirement that many gals have these days is not only unrealistic, it's also crazy. These gals are expecting to feel an instant spark from a stranger, and if they don't feel it, they repeat the process with another stranger. That's insane.


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Originally Posted by normal person View Post
To want to know a person, you have to first be attracted to them and find them appealing. If you don't, there's no point in getting to know them. Why don't you look on OKCupid and go out with every single girl in your city regardless of job, looks, and personality in order to get to know them? Answer that question without dodging it for the third time. You probably don't want to because you have no interest in them by looking at their profile. So you decided you don't want to go out with them because you have no interest in them and you aren't attracted to them.

And you know what? By not giving allowing every single girl in your city a fair "chance" to get to know you, you're just as guilty of the crime you've been bemoaning as anyone else.
No one ever suggested these gals should date every single guy in their city, which I think you know isn't possible. What I am saying is that with the ones they do choose to accept a date with, they need to be serious and mature about taking the time to get to know them, otherwise it's a waste of everyone's time. That's doesn't happen with the one and done dating style and the instant spark philosophy of dating that has become an epidemic among young women.

I keep reading about the disappointment these gals feel when they don't get that sparky feeling with a guy so they give up on him. What these women don't understand is that an instant spark is completely unrelated to a person's suitability for a relationship, and it does not equal love. It would be wonderful if most people who met online hit it off with the spark right away, and spend the next twenty years together, but that doesn't happen, and it is unreasonable for gals to expect it. It's time for women to let go of that love at first sight fairy-tale, and they would much better off for it.

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Originally Posted by normal person View Post
I get the feeling that you don't respect a women's right to make up her own mind and decide what's right for herself. Call me old fashioned, but I think that's oppressive and misogynistic. I only go out with people I have interest in because I'm not so stupid to waste my time thinking that I might magically become attracted and interested in someone after 3 hours when I hadn't before. I realize people just want what's best for themselves and I want them to make their own decisions and pursue their own paths to happiness on their own terms, whatever they might be, without suggesting that I know what's better for them.



The concept is not offensive, it's just time consuming and impractical.

It's only a second date. If the person you meet grows on you, like what happened with the married friend I mentioned, and you end up spending the rest of your life with them, I'd say that's a big payoff for a minimal investment.

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Originally Posted by normal person View Post
The notion that you think the natural evolution of society and technology that people are choosing to immerse themselves in willingly isn't expediting things is ludicrous. It's like you're saying "Why does everyone drive cars? Cars can crash sometimes so they're a bad idea. I tried a car once and I didn't like it. Therefore, everyone should have to walk everywhere."
Not ludicrous at all. How do you explain, with all this dating technology that there are proportionately more single people than there have ever been? It's because these dating apps are not the answer at best, and are making things worse at worst. They have taken the romance out of dating. They have complicated dating in ways we never predicted, making it easier for us to reduce human beings to just one option in a long pile of messages. Dating has become very impersonal.

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Originally Posted by normal person View Post
What you still haven't answered is this: if people were unhappy with the way they're doing things, why would they continue to do them?
The answer is simple: because they don't know or haven't considered a better way. Because they haven't learned or realized that spark and love are completely unrelated.
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Old 7th April 2016, 3:17 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Rejected Rosebud View Post
What SOME women do and like has nothing to do with the dating failures of random guys. It's really not appropriate for anyone to be frustrated over the choices of people they don't even know. NYB!!
It's not necessarily frustration on my part. It's wishing these people would stop falling into the same situation that will eventually turn toxic.

We are a collection of our experiences. That toxic relationship(s) will follow that person forward into other relationships when it wouldn't have if they'd just recognized the red flags from the get go.

It's just sad to see continuously.

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Originally Posted by Rejected Rosebud View Post
again, I have to ask, why are you bringing cheating into this? There are threads on cheating. Women cheat on men, it's not just men who are cheaters. Anyway, nobody on this one is complaining about being cheated on.

Do you really think women who turn you down are then going out with douches who cheat on them? I doubt it. Most are probably looking for a guy with qualities they value AND TO WHOM THEY FEEL ATTRACTED.
I never said anything like that. I'm just using a type of situation where spark can lead you astray.

I'm merely pointing out how spark is nice but that shouldn't substitute for actually having someone who isn't toxic for you. It's great to find someone to be with but if being with that person makes you neurotic and not a better person, was that spark actually worth how it makes you feel.

And, just like looking for a job, there will be many many who fulfill all the requirements. The employer is going to pick the BEST FIT and the rest of the applicants are not getting that job.



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Originally Posted by Rejected Rosebud View Post
You've totally lost me. If you want jobs and don't fulfill the requirements, it's not up to that employer to "give you a chance." They are going to choose from the applicants who fulfilled the requirements. It would be up to YOU to improve yourself and learn the required skills if you want to work in that job - or else expect to have jobs you actually are qualified for.


Well I certainly appreciate that! It's not common around here. The loudest complainers have entire threads about fat women if you'd care to look. They not only want a good woman, but one THEY ARE ATTRACTED TO. It's fine! Just don't be a hypocrite.

Anyway you seem like a good guy and I hope you find a good match for yourself, if that's what you want. But please try to ditch the idea that the women who don't go for you are probably choosing to get abused by somebody. They are probably just holding out for a man they feel attracted to!! It's not wrong!!
Let me just make something clear.

NOBODY OWES ANYONE A CHANCE.

My point was that if you are one of these people/companies complaining about your situation then do something about it. I'm not advocating someone should make a 180 in their dating types. I'm saying we all have bias so nudge yourself to try something new or take a chance on a employee that doesn't come the way you want.

How is that any different than what people say about finding a new hobby. You don't have to just start doing something you don't enjoy. If means pushing your boundaries( on your own terms). If you like running, then hike a trail you've never been to before instead of you doing the same 5 trails over and over.

If all you date are Wall Street bankers, then just date a insurance salesperson in the middle of all the dating mix. You don't owe them 3,4, or 10 dates. It's just about expanding your own experience about what you may actually like.

If I only made friends with people who are similar or familiar to me, I'd miss out on meeting really great people. Doesn't mean it's a failure if they don't become my BFFF.
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Old 7th April 2016, 3:23 PM   #54
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What I am saying is that with the ones they do choose to accept a date with, they need to be serious and mature about taking the time to get to know them, otherwise it's a waste of everyone's time. That's doesn't happen with the one and done dating style and the instant spark philosophy of dating that has become an epidemic among young women.
The problem with your way of thinking is you think that your date already has enough invested in you from online messaging and one date to give dating you more time. In my opinion, that's completely false. The clock doesn't start ticking until you first meet in person. And if she doesn't think your in person persona matches your online persona, than why waste more time? You can figure that out on the first date or "meeting". You don't have this problem with offline dating....
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Old 7th April 2016, 3:41 PM   #55
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I never said anything like that. I'm just using a type of situation where spark can lead you astray.

I'm merely pointing out how spark is nice but that shouldn't substitute for actually having someone who isn't toxic for you. It's great to find someone to be with but if being with that person makes you neurotic and not a better person, was that spark actually worth how it makes you feel.
Having sex with someone you are not attracted to is toxic to you immediately!
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Old 7th April 2016, 3:42 PM   #56
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The problem with your way of thinking is you think that your date already has enough invested in you from online messaging and one date to give dating you more time. In my opinion, that's completely false. The clock doesn't start ticking until you first meet in person. And if she doesn't think your in person persona matches your online persona, than why waste more time? You can figure that out on the first date or "meeting". You don't have this problem with offline dating....
Sword, I agree with you that the clock doesn't start ticking until you first meet in person. But I think you can't call it quits after a decent first date. Some people get nervous on a first date and act unnatural. Not saying that's me, but it happens to a lot of girls and guys on dates. If a women really enjoyed chatting with a guy, but just isn't sure it felt romantic, it think there's no harm in going out with him again. I would argue that one date is not enough time to say it's okay to next a guy. I think two dates is reasonable, if you want to put a number on it.

Last edited by oberkeat; 7th April 2016 at 3:46 PM..
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Old 7th April 2016, 3:47 PM   #57
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I think the problem here is most women don't seem to advocate wanting a really hot, physically attractive guy and instead are emphasizing that the non-superficial aspects are a lot more important. Sure some women do make it plain obvious that they want a really hot guy...but not all do. So then you're typical "nice guy" gets upset when he gets rejected because he thinks he has all these important non-superficial characteristics. It might be easier if women that really want a hot guy, make that clearly known in their online dating profiles That way I can avoid sending them a message....
The problem here --besides assuming women aren't qualified to decide what's right for them but a strange man is - is that guys who go around thinking they're "nice guys" are also assuming any guy a woman is attracted to must automatically be a bad guy. This just isn't true. Actually, they're a lot less bitter and needy and jealous and desperate, and all those traits I just listed are far more likely to equate to danger for a woman or toxicity for a woman than a guy who's normal and secure. So you have it backwards. And women instinctually know this and select guys who aren't raging about not getting women.
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Old 7th April 2016, 5:41 PM   #58
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Women are not getting the "best" guys in this dating market. Many of them are getting no guys.
I'm soon getting married!! To a wonderful man who is super attractive to me!! He is the best man for me, I have no doubt.

Almost all my friends are in relationships, too.

What if I'd been spending my time having multiple dates with men I was not attracted to, or interested in, at all?? I would not be with this one. I shudder to think what a terrible waste of time.
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Old 7th April 2016, 5:44 PM   #59
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She has the right to have her own standards. But that doesn't mean the way she's going about finding someone who meets those standards makes any sense. The instant spark requirement that many gals have these days is not only unrealistic, it's also crazy.
It's no more crazy than continuing to go out with people you have no interest in on the assumption that you might change your mind at some point, even when there's nothing else in it for you if you don't. By seeing more people, the odds are much better.

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Originally Posted by oberkeat View Post
No one ever suggested these gals should date every single guy in their city, which I think you know isn't possible. What I am saying is that with the ones they do choose to accept a date with, they need to be serious and mature about taking the time to get to know them, otherwise it's a waste of everyone's time.
So tell us what criteria people must use to first decide who to go out with, then acknowledge the irony that selecting someone based on predefined criteria before one date is no different than dismissing someone on predefined criteria after one date. Unless you give everyone a chance regardless of your own personal preferences, you're selecting people on their appeal in conjunction with your tastes. You're doing the exact same thing as everyone else. You look at a profile, or see a stranger on the street, and you opt not to say anything, not to go out with them, or give them a chance.

I don't see why you think it's just fine to be able to have preferences and trust your gut about someone before you know them, but not after you meet and then know even more about them. That's moronic.


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That's doesn't happen with the one and done dating style and the instant spark philosophy of dating that has become an epidemic among young women.
Men date the same way. You sound there's an all or nothing scenario between everyone. Either they meet and fall madly in love or never speak again. Hardly the case. If you're moderately interested in someone, you'll see them again if you think it's worth your time. If you're not interested in them at all, you won't. There are many varying degrees of interest and you endlessly trying to proclaim that there's only one is just laughable.

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It's only a second date. If the person you meet grows on you, like what happened with the married friend I mentioned, and you end up spending the rest of your life with them, I'd say that's a big payoff for a minimal investment.
While that may be the case sometimes, the thought of trusting your instincts the first time around is still more favorable than wasting your time with people you don't know. Yeah, if that happens, it's a good investment. But consider the odds. If you keep buying lottery tickets for a year and finally win the jackpot, you'll say it was a good investment. The million other people who bought lottery tickets for a year and didn't win wouldn't say the same. It's like saying you won't quit smoking because you might get hit by a car and die anyways -- but what're the consequences if you don't get hit by a car and die?

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Not ludicrous at all. How do you explain, with all this dating technology that there are proportionately more single people than there have ever been? It's because these dating apps are not the answer at best, and are making things worse at worst. They have taken the romance out of dating. They have complicated dating in ways we never predicted, making it easier for us to reduce human beings to just one option in a long pile of messages. Dating has become very impersonal.
Running in circles here. Once again, being single isn't bad. It's often a choice. Smart people would rather be single than be with the wrong person. Not to mention any number of other complex factors that no one has the answer to. But assuming modern relationships are dead and modern dating is the sole reason is presumptuous.

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The answer is simple: because they don't know or haven't considered a better way. Because they haven't learned or realized that spark and love are completely unrelated.
I just laughed. All this stuff you're on about is because people never considered anything else? Ok, how about this? All you have to do is tell people to do things differently, and if they want to, they'll do it. But if they're happier their current methods, you have to accept their decision and stop acting like you know what's better for them. The end. Good luck.
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Old 7th April 2016, 5:45 PM   #60
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Sword, I agree with you that the clock doesn't start ticking until you first meet in person. But I think you can't call it quits after a decent first date.
You're just going to have to accept that many women (and men but that's not pertinent to you) are not looking for merely "decent" and they'll keep looking, thank you very much!

I know you're done with dating, but if you start again, you'll need to focus on women with very low standards, if you expect them to hang around for "decent."
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