Shocked! Asking men "So when are you going to sleep with me?"

[redheaded-squirrel]

Hi everyone,

 

I had a very interesting conversation today in the ladies' gym I go to. I was raised as "a lady" with quite an old-school-ish views of dating (men should ask women out, women should be pursued, men should show interest first, etc. etc.) However, I have a few older female friends (in their 40s) who told me today that my dating expectations are unrealistic and that I am a "waity Katie" (kinda) and if I don't start chasing men and being upfront with them, I will end up alone.

 

I told them that I am looking for a nice, respectable gentleman and an intellectual who wouldn't mind bringing me an occassional bouquet of roses, or having an interesting conversation about philosophy or politics, or law, whatever. My friends say that I would need three different men for this - a gentleman, an intellectual, and one that is good in bed, plus certainly someone 30 yrs older (I am 22). Am I naive or are they bitter about men?! I was quite shocked about how they told me to wake up, but somehow, it does seem realistic (especially given my no luck with gentlemen...).

 

Also, they were shocked when I said that I have been on a couple of coffee dates with the kind of man I described as my ideal type, but that we have not moved forward after that, despite the fact that I very much wanted to and that we have known each other for 2 yrs. I understood it as him not being interested and I would never think of being so "direct" with him as to ask him on a proper date. I am just not like that - not that brave or open or courageous, whatever - to be chasing men. My friends say: You waited months for him to make a move?! You are crazy, you should have asked him after the 3rd coffee "So when exactly are you planning on f***ing me, finally?" and watch the facial expression of this refined young gentleman after hearing that line. They did give me several examples of how this approach always worked for them and I have to say that some of them are not quite 10/10 in the looks department, so I was surprised, shocked even...

 

Is this REALLY how dating works? Did I freeze in 1900s, together with my views on dating and its dynamics? Since when are women supposed to ask men on the 3rd date "So when exactly are you going to f**k me, finally?" It's either that I am naive, or I am a reincarnated Jane Austen or my friends are just plain crazy and really weird advice-givers. What do you think?

[Redhead14]

Hi everyone,

 

I had a very interesting conversation today in the ladies' gym I go to. I was raised as "a lady" with quite an old-school-ish views of dating (men should ask women out, women should be pursued, men should show interest first, etc. etc.) However, I have a few older female friends (in their 40s) who told me today that my dating expectations are unrealistic and that I am a "waity Katie" (kinda) and if I don't start chasing men and being upfront with them, I will end up alone.

 

I told them that I am looking for a nice, respectable gentleman and an intellectual who wouldn't mind bringing me an occassional bouquet of roses, or having an interesting conversation about philosophy or politics, or law, whatever. My friends say that I would need three different men for this - a gentleman, an intellectual, and one that is good in bed, plus certainly someone 30 yrs older (I am 22). Am I naive or are they bitter about men?! I was quite shocked about how they told me to wake up, but somehow, it does seem realistic (especially given my no luck with gentlemen...).

 

Also, they were shocked when I said that I have been on a couple of coffee dates with the kind of man I described as my ideal type, but that we have not moved forward after that, despite the fact that I very much wanted to and that we have known each other for 2 yrs. I understood it as him not being interested and I would never think of being so "direct" with him as to ask him on a proper date. I am just not like that - not that brave or open or courageous, whatever - to be chasing men. My friends say: You waited months for him to make a move?! You are crazy, you should have asked him after the 3rd coffee "So when exactly are you planning on f***ing me, finally?" and watch the facial expression of this refined young gentleman after hearing that line. They did give me several examples of how this approach always worked for them and I have to say that some of them are not quite 10/10 in the looks department, so I was surprised, shocked even...

 

Is this REALLY how dating works? Did I freeze in 1900s, together with my views on dating and its dynamics? Since when are women supposed to ask men on the 3rd date "So when exactly are you going to f**k me, finally?" It's either that I am naive, or I am a reincarnated Jane Austen or my friends are just plain crazy and really weird advice-givers. What do you think?

 

That's the way it works if the women are not serious about having a relationship and are basically whores . . .

 

However, if you've met someone you like enough and want to have that experience with and they are say "hesitant" about making that move there are lady-like ways of showing interest in that.

[acrosstheuniverse]

I don't know any self-respecting woman or man who'd ask their date that question. It would smack of utter desperation. I assume they intend it to come across all saucy, seductive, outgoing and kinky but to most men I assume it would shock them, wonder if the girl asked every guy that, and take some of the fun out of slowly and naturally becoming sexual with one another. They sound a little... wild lol.

 

But yeah, they're right in that you can't just sit around and let the guy pursue. You have to show interest. Most guys will presume you're not into them if they take you on a date then you don't indicate you want to see them again. There are few old-fashioned men around who'll continually pursue a girl who they're getting no enthusiasm back from.

[acrosstheuniverse]

Also it sounds a bit like a bit of cheeky ladies-only banter... they probably DON'T say that on dates. They probably are just joking around.

[TaraMaiden2]

Welcome to the 21st century where some women go get some and some guys can't handle it.

 

The roles are changing at a pretty fast pace.

 

The majority of needy, insecure clingy (aka desperate) people on here are guys who have let their self-confidence be eroded by the fact that women, temperamentally, are edging them out of the 'dominant' role.

 

Women are far more self-assured, confident and liberated - GENERALLY SPEAKING - than men are, and this is proving to be a sticking point in dating.

 

While your friends have a point, I note you indicate they are older.

In other words, they've 'seen' more of life than you have, and have 'been round the block' more times than you.

 

They have cultivated the confidence and 'chutzpah' that enables them to click their fingers in Life's face and be more daring, forward and give less of a damn.

 

So if you were their age, you'd probably be thinking more like they do.

 

But you're young, inexperienced and less self-assured.

 

Work on your self-confidence; guys like the ones you mention as your ideal, DO exist.

But finding one that ticks all the boxes is going to be a challenge.

 

They have a point about you finding different guys to give you the different things you crave: "Seek not every quality in one individual".

 

AS Quentin Crisp finally discovered, triumphantly, in his Autobiography, "The Naked Civil Servant",

 

There is no one, Great, Man!"

 

Finding the right guy for you, means cultivating a more....'forward' attitude.

because life will not obligingly deliver him wrapped in a scarlet bow, while you sit there simpering for the perfect Mr Darcy.

[Redhead14]

That's the way it works if the women are not serious about having a relationship and are basically whores . . .

 

However, if you've met someone you like enough and want to have that experience with and they are say "hesitant" about making that move there are lady-like ways of showing interest in that.

 

On top of this, if they have been getting results with this approach, I'd bet money they've had a lot of one-night stands or very short dating scenarios.

[TaraMaiden2]

I don't know any self-respecting woman or man who'd ask their date that question. ....

 

Oh I do. And she's not a 'cheap tramp' type.

She's divorced, adult kids, well-spoken, elegant and extremely independent.

 

She has been on several dates with younger men, since her divorce was finalised (2 years ago) and always asks them "So why are you on this date, with me? Be honest now. If it's sex you're curious about, we can appease that curiosity when you're ready."

 

She always insists on dinner at her favourite restaurant, always insists on paying for the food, and on three occasions she can think of, the meal was left half eaten....

[TaraMaiden2]

On top of this, if they have been getting results with this approach, I'd bet money they've had a lot of one-night stands or very short dating scenarios.

 

Yup.

And my friend is very happy with that.

She has a nice list of young gentlemen escorts who have become good friends, and who will take her out on dates and are very happy with the arrangement.

One young guy she went out with, admitted to her during the evening, that he had a fiancée, and she cut him off at the knees.

So she's quite selective....

[redheaded-squirrel]

You're right - wild and saucy, that's definitely what these ladies are. Think "Stifler's mom", slightly softer version. So I should probably take their advice with a grain of salt.

 

But you know, what they have been suggesting seems to work, as opposed to my Elizabeth Bennett-like ways of slightly and innocently flirting with men. Plus we all know that sex IS a prominent interest of men on the dating scene, even of the gentlemanly ones.

 

And I am pretty sure that my ideal type (the one I have been on coffee dates with) would probably choke to death on his Sacher Torte if I asked him "Are you going to f**k me anytime soon or are we going to waste money on coffee instead of condoms?!" So it probably doesn't work as easily and widely as my friends like to say. But I have to admit that some repressed, slightly devilish and more saucy side of me would love to see his reaction

[Redhead14]

Yup.

And my friend is very happy with that.

She has a nice list of young gentlemen escorts who have become good friends, and who will take her out on dates and are very happy with the arrangement.

One young guy she went out with, admitted to her during the evening, that he had a fiancée, and she cut him off at the knees.

So she's quite selective....

 

If that what she wants, that's fine. But if a woman is looking for a relationship and operating that way, good luck . . .

 

And, why would she care if he has a fiance? She just wants hit and run anyway. (Maybe you were being sarcastic

[TaraMaiden2]

No. She discovered her H had been pretty much unfaithful to her the whole marriage, including the week before their wedding.

 

She refuses to play THAT particular game.

 

Incidentally, her H has been trying to woo her back all this time, and she's not having any of that, either!!

[elaine567]

Oh I do. And she's not a 'cheap tramp' type.

She's divorced, adult kids, well-spoken, elegant and extremely independent.

 

She has been on several dates with younger men, since her divorce was finalised (2 years ago) and always asks them "So why are you on this date, with me? Be honest now. If it's sex you're curious about, we can appease that curiosity when you're ready."

 

She always insists on dinner at her favourite restaurant, always insists on paying for the food, and on three occasions she can think of, the meal was left half eaten....

 

OK she wants to get laid and is not shy in asking for it. She even pays for the service...

She is just a high class "tramp".

She doesn't care if she offends or shocks, her cards are on the table and I guess her dalliances are shortlived too.

 

That is a lot different from the OPs situation here.

 

"I told them that I am looking for a nice, respectable gentleman and an intellectual who wouldn't mind bringing me an occasional bouquet of roses, or having an interesting conversation about philosophy or politics, or law, whatever."

The OP is not after a fling, she wants to meet a man and develop a relationship with him.

[mr_dave]

The type of guy you seek would probably be put off by a woman he was interested in a relationship with, if she asked that question. It immediately takes any romance out of the equation, reducing it to a grubby f*#@ when it could have been an amazing natural progression of the mutual feelings you're developing for each other. Say you meet a guy and things are going well, you can seduce him without saying a word, just with your smile and the way you look at him, if he fancies you that is...

 

You can be sex positive, but a decent guy will pick a girl like you for a relationship over one who asks various guys to f'#@ her, any day of the week.

I see you're only 22, so don't give up hope.

Women who behave in a trampy fashion tend to encourage that behaviour in others. Maybe it would make them feel better about themselves if every woman were trampy?

[TaraMaiden2]

OK she wants to get laid and is not shy in asking for it. She even pays for the service...

No, she doesn't.

Because she insists on going to that restaurant, she knows how much a meal costs there and is willing to pay for the meal.

It's not and never has been about 'paying for the service', in exactly the same way a guy would pay for a meal if he was treating a young lady to dinner.

 

 

She is just a high class "tramp".

No, she really isn't. Sorry, but your idea of a tramp really doesn't tally up with the woman I know. I can see why, in plain black & white, you might think that, but it's incorrect....

 

 

She doesn't care if she offends or shocks,

Actually, she cares a great deal, which is why she tends to be selective about whom she is forward with, and whether she gauges they can 'deal with it'.

 

her cards are on the table and I guess her dalliances are short-lived too

.

If you re-read my above post, she has had several repeat dates, and they haven't always ended up between the sheets...

 

That is a lot different from the OPs situation here.

I was really giving this account to illustrate that confidence is built over time, and can work, under the right circumstances.

I wasn't suggesting the OP should do this, but that if a woman is confident enough to seek a sexual dalliance with a guy she's dating, there's nothing wrong with it...

 

 

The OP is not after a fling, she wants to meet a man and develop a relationship with him

I think focusing on the OP and her 'attitude' alone, we can surmise that whatever she's doing, is not working....

[TaraMaiden2]

I note in my post I did admittedly state that -

 

..."she always asks them...."

 

I really should clarify:

This is in reference to the guys she ends up enjoying a time of sexual abandonment with.

She doesn't ask EVERY guy she's with...

 

I apologise if my phraseology misled.

 

It was poorly phrased, and I can see why she might be appearing in a bad light.

 

Mea Culpa.

[angel.eyes]

OP, it's fine to let the guy take the lead. I do that myself. I let him ask for dates early on and initiate communication between dates. But you still need to show some signs of interest throughout the process.

 

For example in polite society in Jane Austen's time, it was dropping your handkerchief just before your crush walked by you, so that he could pick it up and interact with you. There are similarly subtle but clear signs you can give in the 21st century to convey interest--catch his gaze and smile at him, engage him in conversation and show enthusiasm for his interests, etc.

 

You'll generally end up with a different type of guy and a different type of relationship than those using your friends' approach.

 

As Stephen Covey would say: Begin with the end in mind.

[redheaded-squirrel]

I think focusing on the OP and her 'attitude' alone, we can surmise that whatever she's doing, is not working....

 

No, what I have been doing is not working. My whole attitude, all my expectations somehow seem very naive, idealistic (at least to me and some other people as well). I wowed to never say this because I am an optimist, but the kind of men I am looking for are just dying out now.

 

And when I found a man like that, I was fed up with how we were beating around the bush. Geez, he was never direct about his feelings, but I like when a man has the courage to admit his feelings (major brownie points for him!)

 

On a side note: If a man confesses his feelings and the woman reciprocates them, great. If she doesn't, she will be flattered and that's it, she isn't gonna get pissed and cut off all contact, is she?! (At least I wouldn't...) But if a woman confesses first, the man starts avoiding her, treats the remaining friendship as if it was something uncomfortable for him, unpleasant even...I, as a woman, try not to let unreciprocated feelings affect my friendships and most of the time it worked, but men never do that for me, they never did...so I just don't understand.

[redheaded-squirrel]

There are similarly subtle but clear signs you can give in the 21st century to convey interest--catch his gaze and smile at him, engage him in conversation and show enthusiasm for his interests, etc.

 

I know, I did all that in the past with men, but maybe I am stupid and unless a man tells me upfront that he likes me and wants to be with me, I will assume he is just being nice, friendly, chivalrous, etc. I am not confident enough, so I never dare to assume interest from these signs. It's just not clear to me. The only time a man's intentions were clear to me was when he started to make sexual remarks early on, I knew he just wanted a fling because he told me. But when someone smiles at me, talks to me about my interests? I tell to myself that he's just being friendly. Maybe it's weird, but that's me

[VengeanceGuidesMe]

tl;dr all the responses.

 

 

I agree a lot with what Redhead14 said.

 

I will say it isn't going to hurt if you throw a guy a bone. If you're interested in a man, do something to make it obvious. Be cute a little about it, and if you do it, try to make it seem like he figured it out. He'll feel awesome and be interested.

 

If you think a guy is into you, try and hint about something you like to do on a first date. I'm a fan of something you can do that allows talking. Let's say for ease of example, you like to have a coffee or a beer. Just ask him, So, do you know a good place to get a (xxx)? which he says no, well he's an odd ball firstly, everyone does, then you can tell him too bad, ahaha. But he will say, "Yeah, I like blah blah".. Then tell him maybe you'll see him there some time with a smile If he is interested, he would probably ask you to go with him.

 

I don't see the point in asking the question about sex. I think sex is pretty much obvious. I mean, a good part of dating is certainly being intimate, when it's time.

 

 

I guess another problem is the guy will be unsure and move slowely, to which you start to question or become disinterested. In that case, maybe you can be direct and classy. Though, if you have to make the first move, then maybe you are already disinterested. You could just flat out say "I like you, and I would like to go on a date with you"... Just to make your intentions clear too. Men aren't mind readers, and some are timid or have a hard time reading you.

 

 

Finally, I have had numerous relationships. The worst and most boring ones have been physical and sex only relationships. The fact that you wouldn't only entertain a conversation about these things, but are seeking them is a rarity indeed. A lot of men may be turned off by this, but having a PhD in Chemistry, I need something intellectually stimulating or I grow bored very fast. I think you'll do fine.

 

 

Just hold out for it, and try to meet men in places you'd expect to find the guys you like. Libraries, book stores, at the park. A lot of intellectuals really care about health, so your friends comments about being bad in the sack just because your smart is completely ignorant. Many of my friends have hobbies though for health instead of gyms; bicycle riding (outdoors!) hiking (outdoors), climbing (in and outdoors), tennis, etc...

 

 

Anyway, best of luck. The best thing you can do is observe your friends and see how far their methods get them. Then you'll really know the truth.

[Versacehottie]

I think that can work if such boldness is truly 100% within your personality. I know a few girls like this and I don't think it affects their dating. I think you can be your way and hold back if it's truly you and it will weed out a lot of guys who weren't interested in a relationship anyway. I know plenty of girls like this. It's the middle ground that's tricky. If you start saying and doing things as part of a strategy to hook a guy or keep up with what you believe other girls are doing then you are not being authentic. This is where you get into trouble. A guy can sense when you are giving it up to keep them interested and it, in fact, will do the reverse--lose interest. Because he will feel like he has you in palm of his hand and lose respect. Do what you want to do in your timeframe.

[Redhead14]

tl;dr all the responses.

 

 

I agree a lot with what Redhead14 said.

 

I will say it isn't going to hurt if you throw a guy a bone. If you're interested in a man, do something to make it obvious. Be cute a little about it, and if you do it, try to make it seem like he figured it out. He'll feel awesome and be interested.

 

If you think a guy is into you, try and hint about something you like to do on a first date. I'm a fan of something you can do that allows talking. Let's say for ease of example, you like to have a coffee or a beer. Just ask him, So, do you know a good place to get a (xxx)? which he says no, well he's an odd ball firstly, everyone does, then you can tell him too bad, ahaha. But he will say, "Yeah, I like blah blah".. Then tell him maybe you'll see him there some time with a smile If he is interested, he would probably ask you to go with him.

 

I don't see the point in asking the question about sex. I think sex is pretty much obvious. I mean, a good part of dating is certainly being intimate, when it's time.

 

 

I guess another problem is the guy will be unsure and move slowely, to which you start to question or become disinterested. In that case, maybe you can be direct and classy. Though, if you have to make the first move, then maybe you are already disinterested. You could just flat out say "I like you, and I would like to go on a date with you"... Just to make your intentions clear too. Men aren't mind readers, and some are timid or have a hard time reading you.

 

 

Finally, I have had numerous relationships. The worst and most boring ones have been physical and sex only relationships. The fact that you wouldn't only entertain a conversation about these things, but are seeking them is a rarity indeed. A lot of men may be turned off by this, but having a PhD in Chemistry, I need something intellectually stimulating or I grow bored very fast. I think you'll do fine.

 

 

Just hold out for it, and try to meet men in places you'd expect to find the guys you like. Libraries, book stores, at the park. A lot of intellectuals really care about health, so your friends comments about being bad in the sack just because your smart is completely ignorant. Many of my friends have hobbies though for health instead of gyms; bicycle riding (outdoors!) hiking (outdoors), climbing (in and outdoors), tennis, etc...

 

 

Anyway, best of luck. The best thing you can do is observe your friends and see how far their methods get them. Then you'll really know the truth.

 

Well this is where confidence and assertiveness come into play. A man has asked you for and taken you on a very nice date. He's been a gentleman, yet, he's been gazing, touching you lightly, smiling, etc. You've really enjoyed the date. If you want to see him again, you accept a kiss on the cheek, you thank him for the date and then basically do an initiation to balance things out (he initiated once, you are now too): You say, I've really enjoyed this evening and would welcome the opportunity to see you again. If not, I wish you all the best. Then, the ball is in his court. You wait to see if he calls you again. If he doesn't, there's no wondering if he didn't get your "signals" and he's not wondering if you got his. But you only do this once for now. If he asks you out again, you let him initiate a few times from that point on. Then you initiate again to demonstrate your continued interest. Yeah, it gets a little unbalanced for the man at this point, but it should level out.

 

If you didn't like him enough, you say I don't think we are a good match, but I thank you for the nice evening and say goodnight. If it's been a second date and you don't care to see him again, you pay for the date and tell him you're not a good match . . .

Edited July 1, 2015 by Redhead14

[mr_dave]

No, what I have been doing is not working. My whole attitude, all my expectations somehow seem very naive, idealistic (at least to me and some other people as well). I wowed to never say this because I am an optimist, but the kind of men I am looking for are just dying out now.

 

And when I found a man like that, I was fed up with how we were beating around the bush. Geez, he was never direct about his feelings, but I like when a man has the courage to admit his feelings (major brownie points for him!)

 

On a side note: If a man confesses his feelings and the woman reciprocates them, great. If she doesn't, she will be flattered and that's it, she isn't gonna get pissed and cut off all contact, is she?! (At least I wouldn't...) But if a woman confesses first, the man starts avoiding her, treats the remaining friendship as if it was something uncomfortable for him, unpleasant even...I, as a woman, try not to let unreciprocated feelings affect my friendships and most of the time it worked, but men never do that for me, they never did...so I just don't understand.

 

Where in Eastern Europe after you from?

 

The following post might be a little offensive bit here goes.

 

I was going to protest and say ' Hey, I know loads of guys who are gentlemanly, generous, intelligent and respectful.' Then I saw your location, Eastern Europe. My mum's side of the family are Ukrainian and Belorussian. I myself am half Eastern European I guess. The guys, whether from those aforementioned countries ( or Russia itself) are some of the most unrefined, miserable and rude people I have ever encountered. So I can understand and sympathise with your predicament.

 

There's seemingly an aversion in communist or ex-communist countries to displaying any kind of manners, or refinement, I guess behaving in a sophisticated, un-peasantlike manner would have got you shot or thrown in a Gulag decades ago. Chinese people are infamous for it, so much so that their newly wealthy spend tens of thousands coming to learn manners in finishing schools in Switzerland.

If you were to come to Western Europe you might have better luck, the type of guy you seek I hope is much less thin on the ground here.

[oldshirt]

In my 20s I was kind of like the kind of man you seek in my own way. And I did have some women lay it out there as you've deceived and I was frankly a little offended. I took that as an assault of my masculinity and that they didn't think I was man enough for them.

 

I also did find it a bit whorish and desperate in their part and their stock went down and I lost a big heap of respect and deference for them.

 

Now I do want you to keep this in mind - I did fck some if them and fcked them well. They may have come away sexually satisfied , But that's all it was for me and that's all they came away from me.

 

I no longer saw them as potential GF or mate material and they were real gated to FWB/FB duty.

 

So my bottom line here is if you are looking for FWB/FBs, that approach will be on the money.

 

If you want a deeper relationship with kind of man you describe, you will get the sex, but that will be all you get after that.

 

Political and philosophical discussions and relationship matters will be for others.

 

Is that fair?? No, but I hope you are old and experienced enough to realize the world isn't always a fair and just place.

[oldshirt]

... Now that being said, even though I think being THAT forward and graphic will be counter productive to your long term goals, these experienced adult women do have a valid point and that passivity will only get you so far.

 

Passivity and allowing men to pursue can be dangerously close to laziness and sloth. You still have to bring something to the table besides your presence. Even the supermodels and royalty still have to bring something to the table and still have to put in some effort.

 

Guys may appreciate a lady with virtue and dignity, but a bump a log that expects to be served and catered to and spoon fed while bringing nothing in return will soon be left in the dust of others willing to put in some effort of their own.

[oldshirt]

I know, I did all that in the past with men, but maybe I am stupid and unless a man tells me upfront that he likes me and wants to be with me, I will assume he is just being nice, friendly, chivalrous, etc. I am not confident enough, so I never dare to assume interest from these signs. It's just not clear to me. The only time a man's intentions were clear to me was when he started to make sexual remarks early on, I knew he just wanted a fling because he told me. But when someone smiles at me, talks to me about my interests? I tell to myself that he's just being friendly. Maybe it's weird, but that's me

 

If you are a 22 year old woman and are under 250lbs and take a shower every day, assume that if a man talks to you AT ALL that he has at least a baseline sexual interest.

 

Male sexual interest is an assumption. Whether he has any non sexual interest or appreciation in you is the wild card.

 

Men typically do not spend time, money or emotional energy on women they aren't sexually interested in.

 

Assume all men would be glad to fck you given the green light. Filter them out by how they interact and relate to you non sexually.