Lying vs. Withholding Information and Privacy

[murphomatic]

Ahhh yes ... trusty LS. Always an excellent resource, and I'm hoping to stumble upon some sage advice yet again.

 

I've known a girl girl for several years, and we started dating about 8 months ago. For those of you who recognize my name, I started officially dating her after my nasty divorce was finalized back in December.

 

For some time, she was finishing a masters program at college, so our relationship was long-distance, but we saw each other on weekends and had a friendship that spanned several years anyway - so I knew her pretty well. She finished school in June and basically moved into my town and is basically living with me at present.

 

Yesterday, I was contacted by my ex-wife's ex-husband (the husband she had prior to me - let's call him "Bill"). Through my divorce, Bill and I did some commiserating and became friends having both been husbands to this awful person - we had some things in common. Anyway - his (our) ex has been trying to take him back to court for more money, and Bill needed some documentation from my divorce to help in his defense against her claims.

 

I chatted with Bill a bit, offered to help, and stopped by his place on my way home from work for about 15-20 mins to chat about documentation I could get for him. When I got home, I told my girlfriend that Bill had contacted me and needed my help regarding my ex, so I had chatted with him, and that all of us should get together for dinner sometime. Even though we have a common ex-wife, Bill and I genuinely like each other and likely would be friends even if that common aspect wasn't present. This upset my girlfriend and I understand that she probably felt like us having dinner with Bill and Bill's girlfriend would more-or-less disintegrate into an evening of chatting about the ex-wife. Please note that at this point, I did not tell my girlfriend I had stopped by Bill's place on my way home from work.

 

This morning, my girlfriend is very upset and asks me directly if went to Bill's house yesterday. I denied that I did, fearing it would upset her more and that I would find myself "in trouble" for something that I thought was rather innocuous. She became more upset and stated I was lying to her. Turns out that she snooped through my phone while I was in the shower this morning and read the FB messenger conversation where I told Bill I'd swing by on my way home for a few mins.

 

I admitted that I lied to her, and apologized. I explained that I didn't want to upset her more, and that while I didn't understand WHY it would upset her if I mentioned that I stopped by Bill's, I knew that it would. She says she can't trust me, and that withholding information is the same as lying. I feel like an ass.

 

What do I do? Should I have any expectation of privacy in the sense that I stopped by Bill's house and chose not to relate this detail to her? Should I have a right to privacy with my phone? Should I have been more up-front with her that I was going to swing by Bill's despite the fact that she would be angry? I'm an idiot.

[MidwestUSA]

Good lord. It's womenz like her that give the rest of us a bad rap. Seeing as you knew it would upset her, maybe you should have fessed up right off the bat about stopping by his house. It's sad commentary that you know, in advance, that such trivia is going to bother her. :facepalm:

 

I don't blame you for omitting that tidbit, it's clear she's going to make a big deal of it, however. At best, if you can socialize with Bill and his gf without discussing the ex, maybe it'll blow over and she'll see she overreacted.

 

 

I wish you luck; congrats on surviving that nasty divorce! Have you got to see the kids you were going to dearly miss?

[MidwestUSA]

As for the phone, I don't snoop thru my husbands, and he doesn't snoop thru mine. We're open books.

 

The most I will do is answer it for him if I get to it first or he's tied up (snicker). Or access some of our mutual pics; we don't lock our phones.

[murphomatic]

Thanks MidwestUSA. I don't lock my phone either ... I don't feel as though anything I have on my phone is worth really "hiding" but I do feel a bit violated by the fact that she helped herself because she felt like doing so, and that it was done in a sneaky fashion.

 

Thanks also for the congrats. Unfortunately, 7/4/2013 was the last time I saw and spoke with the kids. It wasn't long after that they both sent letters to the judge requesting an attorney, that they never wanted to see me again because I'm a mean, horrible and controlling person. I'm certain the letters were written at the encouragement of their mother as the events they claim never actually occurred, but I've had to let them go otherwise it would just be heartbreaking forever.

[WorryGirl]

Woah. It's okay that you neglected to tell her that you stopped by his house, unless you neglected to tell her because you didn't want her to know. If it's because it was no big deal to you and you just didn't think about telling her then that's fine.

 

It isn't okay for her to look through your things though, and it isn't okay for you to lie to her when she blatantly asked you. You may have just given each other trust issues.

 

If I were you, I'd have an open and honest heart to heart. Tell her how sorry you are for lying, and tell her she cannot look through your things in future. Then maintain that you won't neglect to tell her when you see this guy in the future, and reiterate that her insecurities are merely just that. Perhaps she needs to spend time with this guy and his girlfriend to see that though.

[Michelle ma Belle]

Good lord. It's womenz like her that give the rest of us a bad rap. Seeing as you knew it would upset her, maybe you should have fessed up right off the bat about stopping by his house. It's sad commentary that you know, in advance, that such trivia is going to bother her. :facepalm:

 

I don't blame you for omitting that tidbit, it's clear she's going to make a big deal of it, however. At best, if you can socialize with Bill and his gf without discussing the ex, maybe it'll blow over and she'll see she overreacted.

 

 

I wish you luck; congrats on surviving that nasty divorce! Have you got to see the kids you were going to dearly miss?

 

Agreed.

 

I don't understand her reaction to this at all unfortunately. It's not like you were married to "Bill" for heaven's sake. And even if you both sit around and chatted about your mutual ex, from what you just described it wouldn't be pretty. She should find that comforting if nothing else.

 

She sounds insecure and even a tad immature if you ask me. Not sure how old she is but that is my dime store analysis of her.

 

As for your question about privacy, yes, I think we all have a right to some privacy. I'm not one of those people who thinks couples need to hand over their passwords on every techno gadget they own unless it's really something you BOTH want to do.

 

In your case, I think you should have been more honest and upfront about your visit with "Bill". It's just easier to deal with things face forward rather than ass backwards.

 

What is more important than privacy is trust. Without trust, asking for and/or having privacy is like catnip to insecure partners hell bent on creating problems where there usually aren't any.

[WrinkledForehead]

I'm dealing with something sort of similar, in that I'm the one that lied (about having a drink with a coworker). I knew it would piss him off even though the drink was strictly platonic.

 

I'm taking the stance that its healthier to have conflict due to honesty than conflict due to dishonesty. My partner and I have had an incredibly tough month but we've been talking and arguing and just getting all that pent up stuff out. We have moments when we argue but we've also had times of deep discussion and revelations about self and each other. We're taking the time to not only talk, but to also truly listen to another.

 

My suggestion is to tell the full truth, and take whatever anger she has. A good partnership will withstand the truth and in time, you'll be able to discuss instead of arguing. Best of luck, truly.

[murphomatic]

Yeah, I specifically omitted the fact that I stopped by his house for two reasons:

1. I didn't think it was a big deal.

2. I knew she'd be upset about it.

 

When I told her that I'd spoken to him, she became upset. It was at that point I elected to omit telling her I stopped by his house as I knew it would simply make her more upset. It seems that she wants me to be open and honest with her about all things in my life, which I have no issue doing, however when the topic happens to be my ex-wife (which, regrettably - the topic is still very fresh so things do come up from time to time), she becomes very upset...so that makes me very hesitant to fully share all the details on that topic.

 

I'm dealing with something sort of similar, in that I'm the one that lied (about having a drink with a coworker). I knew it would piss him off even though the drink was strictly platonic.

 

I'm taking the stance that its healthier to have conflict due to honesty than conflict due to dishonesty. My partner and I have had an incredibly tough month but we've been talking and arguing and just getting all that pent up stuff out. We have moments when we argue but we've also had times of deep discussion and revelations about self and each other. We're taking the time to not only talk, but to also truly listen to another.

 

My suggestion is to tell the full truth, and take whatever anger she has. A good partnership will withstand the truth and in time, you'll be able to discuss instead of arguing. Best of luck, truly.

This is great advice, WF. Very good point. Better to deal with anger from honesty than anger resulting from dishonestly. Well said.

Edited July 29, 2014 by murphomatic

[MidwestUSA]

Yeah, I specifically omitted the fact that I stopped by his house for two reasons:

1. I didn't think it was a big deal.

2. I knew she'd be upset about it.

 

 

 

This is somewhat contradictory. If #2 is true, then #1 can't be. And I agree, it was your only mistake, as you well realize.

 

 

I think you've done all the damage control that you can for now. For her part, she needs to get over the fact that you have an ex wife and a past. And it's fairly recent. My guess is this is going to be your biggest hurdle, good luck.

 

 

Sorry about the kids; it was obvious she poisoned them against you.

[murphomatic]

This is somewhat contradictory. If #2 is true, then #1 can't be. And I agree, it was your only mistake, as you well realize.

 

 

I think you've done all the damage control that you can for now. For her part, she needs to get over the fact that you have an ex wife and a past. And it's fairly recent. My guess is this is going to be your biggest hurdle, good luck.

 

 

Sorry about the kids; it was obvious she poisoned them against you.

I guess maybe I should rephrase #1 ...

 

I didn't think it was a big deal that I stopped by his place. I knew that she would think it was a big deal. So she and I disagree on the magnitude of this particular event.

 

I saw it as a simple task/chore to help a friend against a common enemy, but my girlfriend sees it as some desire and attempt on my part to maintain a tie to my ex-wife and past life...as much as I've tried to convince her that I have no desire to maintain a relationship with my ex-wife, on some level - she believes that I do.

 

The kids were manipulated, and they continue to be manipulated now in her continuing ploys to gain financially from her ex through by leveraging her kids.

[MidwestUSA]

I guess what happens in a relationship, we forfeit the right to think some things are 'no big deal', and are forced to see it thru the eyes of our partner. (that's the best way I can put it).

 

My husband didn't think it was a big deal that he didn't know my phone number. Hey, it's stored in his phone, right? Wrong! I went off on this whole scenario in which he's in a wreck, ejected from the car, and dying. His phone isn't within reach. Who's an onlooker to call, and how? (After 911, of course)

 

 

Yea, he's got it memorized now, LOL!

 

 

You'd think knowing the absolute hell you went thru would be enough to convince her that you want nothing to do with the ex. Jealous nature of women, I guess.

[Smilecharmer]

Why was she mad about getting together with Bill in any capacity? Are you bisexual?

[murphomatic]

I guess what happens in a relationship, we forfeit the right to think some things are 'no big deal', and are forced to see it thru the eyes of our partner. (that's the best way I can put it).

 

My husband didn't think it was a big deal that he didn't know my phone number. Hey, it's stored in his phone, right? Wrong! I went off on this whole scenario in which he's in a wreck, ejected from the car, and dying. His phone isn't within reach. Who's an onlooker to call, and how? (After 911, of course)

 

 

Yea, he's got it memorized now, LOL!

 

 

You'd think knowing the absolute hell you went thru would be enough to convince her that you want nothing to do with the ex. Jealous nature of women, I guess.

Very good point. We do give up the ability to be the sole judge of any given situation. I guess if it's to be a partnership, it has to be an honest-to-god partnership.

 

She tends to be jealous, and to answer Smilecharmer's question as well - no, I'm not bisexual .. but she is jealous and suspicious of things. She can be prone to reading meaning into things that isn't really there. By me going to Bill's house - she's afraid that I have some motivation to maintain a connection with my ex-wife. She's also afraid that even if that isn't the case and I'm simply angry/bitter about my ex-wife, that me not letting go of my anger or bitterness will put a negative spin on my new life.

 

I have argued that my ex-wife is a desperate and dangerous person, and that if I were to become apathetic about her entirely, it would be immoral as she will continue to hurt people I consider to be my friends and I wouldn't be in a position to help them, and it would be irresponsible as my ex may become exceedingly desperate and choose to try to get something more out of me when she realizes her first ex-husband's well as run dry. My ex-wife is a bad person who delights in manipulating people and systems for her own gain. I'm not willing to let my guard down...at least not yet.

[Quiet Storm]

I think when you intentionally omit something that you know your partner will find to be a big deal, it's sneaky & manipulative. Regardless of whether it's a little lie about your whereabouts or omitting a huge event in the past, it makes your partner feel disrespected.

 

You can say it's about your need for privacy, but I suspect it was really about conflict avoidance.

 

You don't get to decide what's a big deal to other people. And the fact that you knew she would be upset just makes it worse.

 

I agree that she shouldn't have gone through your phone, but she had a feeling you were lying & her instincts were correct. She probably sensed it was a lie, and checked your phone hoping that it wasn't true to reassure herself. Its true that she invaded your privacy, but I don't think her invasion trumps your lie. This isn't a courtroom, so her findings aren't going to be inadmissible because she didn't have a search warrant. Her method of getting truth doesn't negate your lie.

 

The best thing is to just be honest. If she gets upset, then you decide if you can handle that or want someone that behaves that way. It's not fair to manipulate her reality to make it more palatable for her. That can feel very insulting to some women because many men in our lives, fathers/BF's/brothers/husbands/bosses, etc. have the "what she doesn't know won't hurt her" or "don't worry her pretty little head about it" mentality- this belief that its OK to keep info from us because we get emotional.

 

I agree that our reactions can sometimes be emotional, but that does not mean we need to be protected from the truth, nor does it give you the right to filter the truth.

 

Communication is important, and emotional situations need to be discussed and resolved honestly. All couples have conflict. Lying or omitting adds a layer of disrespect on top of the underlying conflict.

 

If you value your privacy, then just communicate that. Don't lie, but say "I don't wish to share that information". Will she be upset about that? Probably. Wouldn't you be if the roles were reversed? But don't avoid the conflict or confrontation. If your privacy is important to you, then she should be aware of that. If your need for privacy is an issue for her, then she needs to decide if she can handle that. Open & honest communication means that if you aren't compatible, you both will be aware of it early on. Lies & omissions prolong incompatible relationships because the conflicts are suppressed or minimized. It can work to avoid conflict short term, but it prevents the intimacy, trust & respect required for a successful long term relationship.

 

Now that you lied, her focus will be on your dishonesty instead of the original conflict and your focus is on the invasion of privacy. So one small argument has turned into a much bigger issue for both of you, all because of your desire to avoid conflict.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Quiet Storm
corrected wording

[GemmaUK]

Something doesn't add up here.

 

I think there's a lot of info missing.

[murphomatic]

Quiet Storm - you are correct that I omitted the information to avoid the conflict. I agree that this was a small issue that has become a much larger issue because of my poor choice to omit the information in the first place, and then deny it when asked directly. I've told her this already and have asked for her forgiveness, stating that her forgiveness would be by her grace alone; that I do not deserve to be forgiven for lying.

 

The violation of my privacy by her looking through my phone - I understand why she did it, and I have done similar things myself in the past (ie - this is how I discovered my wife was cheating on me). I don't necessarily fault her for doing it. I guess my perspective on a lot of this is that our relationship is very young yet, and there are still some barricades in certain areas. To be somewhat frank, I do somewhat consider my previous marriage and the details therein to be my private business. I don't snoop through her previous marriage details or previous relationship details - none of that is any of my business, so if she needed to drop by her ex-boyfriend's sister's house on her way home from work to drop off a jacket that belonged to him, then avoided telling me about it because she didn't want to pick a fight - I can't really say that I would be too up-in-arms about it. If she dropped by to try to rekindle some relationship with him, that would be different and I would find it upsetting ... but I would have to make a lot of assumptions about her motives first, and me feeling wronged by that activity would be almost entirely driven by my own assumptions. She wouldn't really deserve to have to bear the brunt of my foul attitude borne out of my own fears and assumptions, lacking any basis in reality.

 

GemmaUK - from your perspective, what isn't adding up? I'd be happy to fill in any details. I'm here for honest and objective advice, not for a fan-club.

Edited July 29, 2014 by murphomatic
Im knot a gud spelar.

[Fondue]

Hey man, I'm going to ask you straight up: What makes you want to be with this woman?

 

She sounds manipulative, overbearing, and emotional.

 

Are you sure you need to have her in your life right now? Be honest with yourself.

 

YOu went to see a friend whom was in your EXACT shoes. You went to help HIM. Which probably, also helped you. You got to discuss your current emotional state and probably just leaned on each other for support.

 

She has a problem with that? Really?

 

COme on, dude. Are you sure you're not with her just because you feel like you "need" to have someone by your side at all times. You just got out of one terrible relationship, why risk getting yourself into another one so soon?

 

I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just an observer from the "outside." You painted me a bad picture of this lady. YOu were afraid she would get angry at you for visiting a friend.

 

And you were right! She did! What kind of girlfriend gets upset at her bf visiting a damn friend! A friend whom shared teh same exact life as you! You were BOTH with the same EX-WIFE. SHe should be PROUD that you're hanging out with this person and made a friend out of a ****ty situation, not be super pissed at you!

[beach]

You have the need to blatantly lie to her? Not cool.

 

But then she snoops - not cool either.

 

 

I can't see that you have built a relationship based on honesty or trust.

 

You've created it this way - there is nothing to work with.

 

It's ruined and will take years of earning her trust back.

 

You omit truth so easily. That's not a quality I could withstand in any relationship.

 

It's a passive/aggressive move from you. It's always designed to save face but causes so much harm while doing it.

 

It doesn't work for me! How can you expect to rebuild the relationship when you aren't participating on an honest level?

 

 

And she probably doesn't want him as a friend. Commiserating about your exW is not going to help build a life with your GF.

 

Let the friendship with her other exH die out! I don't know any woman that would dig that scene. You can choose not to interact with him further.

 

But the lying thing - no way would that work for me.

[murphomatic]

beach, I understand your position and I'm not trying to justify or defend the fact that I lied. It was wrong for me to do and not something I make a habit of doing in any way, shape or form. It was wrong and it made a worse situation out of one I was trying to avoid in the first place, so it was exceedingly stupid on my part to even attempt. I think it's a bit absurd to consider trashing the entire relationship over, however. Do the people in your life never make mistakes?

 

Fondue - this issue really stands alone. She's a really wonderful lady that I've had a friendship with over the years. I'm not with her because I desperately need to "have someone by my side at all times." I'm with her because I enjoy being with her and I see a potential future for us together.

[2sunny]

beach, I understand your position and I'm not trying to justify or defend the fact that I lied. It was wrong for me to do and not something I make a habit of doing in any way, shape or form. It was wrong and it made a worse situation out of one I was trying to avoid in the first place, so it was exceedingly stupid on my part to even attempt. I think it's a bit absurd to consider trashing the entire relationship over, however. Do the people in your life never make mistakes?

 

Fondue - this issue really stands alone. She's a really wonderful lady that I've had a friendship with over the years. I'm not with her because I desperately need to "have someone by my side at all times." I'm with her because I enjoy being with her and I see a potential future for us together.

 

You view this a mistake? Are you sure? You made a conscious decision not to tell her. Then you made another decision to lie directly to her when she asked.

 

That's no mistake... That's on purpose.

 

Sure people make mistakes. Intent or motive is considered. A mistake isn't done on purpose - it's an error. Your decision to lie wasn't a mistake - it was intentional.

 

That's why I have a problem with you hi king it's not really a big deal.

[murphomatic]

I think you're confusing "accident" with "mistake." I made a conscious decision, and it was a WRONG decision. Most people would call that a "mistake." I didn't slip and fall and "accidentally" lie to her. Whatever wording you want to couch it in - it was wrong of me to do and I'm a jerk for having done it. Does that make me a bad person that she should walk away from?

 

Maybe.

 

I lied to her yes. I DO think that's a big deal - I've not claimed otherwise. I'm not a person who lies, so I'm questioning myself as to why I felt it necessary to do so.

Edited July 29, 2014 by murphomatic

[ascendotum]

I agree with Fondue. At the same time you did lie to your gf, but I totally understand why and given her reaction it basically supported your rational for doing it in the first place. Like you I personally think meeting up and helping bill is no big deal. I think your gf is making mountains out of molehills, and her snooping through your phone (without giving her prior trust issues I am assuming) pretty much cancels out her indignation at you omitting meeting Bill imo. By snooping on you, and then you lying about Bill, in her mind this will totally justify her spying on you, and you can bet for the future too. She obviously does not trust you.

 

You did the things you did to avoid unnecessary drama/conflict over a minor issue. I get it. I've done similar for the same reasons, as have millions of others in relationships for sure. It is a shame that we don't always end up with a partner we can have 100% open honest communication with. If your new gf forbids you from seeing Bill it puts you in a bit of awkward position. He is more then a stranger with a common enemy and dropping this relationship because your new gf ordered it does not set a good dynamic for the future imo.You lying to her (even if it a minor thing) does set a good dynamic for the future in her mind I'm sure.

[beach]

I think you're confusing "accident" with "mistake." I made a conscious decision, and it was a WRONG decision. Most people would call that a "mistake." I didn't slip and fall and "accidentally" lie to her. Whatever wording you want to couch it in - it was wrong of me to do and I'm a jerk for having done it. Does that make me a bad person that she should walk away from?

 

Maybe.

 

I lied to her yes. I DO think that's a big deal - I've not claimed otherwise. I'm not a person who lies, so I'm questioning myself as to why I felt it necessary to do so.

 

It's good you are questioning yourself. That's how you can learn about yourself and grow to do better.

[writergal]

I think you're confusing "accident" with "mistake." I made a conscious decision, and it was a WRONG decision. Most people would call that a "mistake." I didn't slip and fall and "accidentally" lie to her. Whatever wording you want to couch it in - it was wrong of me to do and I'm a jerk for having done it. Does that make me a bad person that she should walk away from?

 

Maybe.

 

I lied to her yes. I DO think that's a big deal - I've not claimed otherwise. I'm not a person who lies, so I'm questioning myself as to why I felt it necessary to do so.

 

Yes it does make you a bad person that your girlfriend should walk away from. Lying -- especially when it's done intentionally, to deceive -- is the most common destroyer of relationships, both friendship and romantic.

 

A mistake? A mistake is an accident. Knowingly lying to someone is not a mistake. It's a selfish act and it's manipulative.

 

If you love someone you have no reason to lie to them. Ever. About anything.

 

Neither of you are compatible, frankly, the way you act out against each other (her snooping b/c of your lying, and your lying because of her suspicions which were correct after all). There doesn't seem to be any mutual respect or trust in your relationship for each other. Otherwise, this wouldn't have happened. If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. (Mark Twain said that.)

 

And your thread title is misleading because technically "with-holding information" is the same as lying by omission. Lying, by any other name, is still LYING.

 

The only way you can resolve this is to stop lying to your girlfriend. Until that happens, I don't blame her for not trusting you anymore. She has no reason to trust you until you give her one.

[murphomatic]

mistake

[mi-steyk]

noun

An error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.

 

accident

[ak-si-duh nt]

noun

An undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap.

 

==============

 

Writergal, while you're entitled to your opinion - perhaps you should consult Webster? I think someone with the moniker "writergal" should wield a better command of the English language. "Mistake" != "Accident." You'll have to forgive me for not taking your immediate and full disqualification of my character as a human being too seriously, given that you can't even compare two simple words accurately.

 

How is the title of my post "misleading"? Did I ever state that withholding information was not the same as lying? Have I ever tried to defend the fact that I lied as some justified action?

 

Good lord.

 

Did you even read my posts, or do you just jump at any opportunity to be a complete shrew?

 

I'm glad some of us lead absolutely perfect lives in our little glass houses.

Edited July 30, 2014 by murphomatic
Punctuation. Wouldn't want the punctuation Nazis to tell me what a bad person I am.