"The End of Courtship" - The New York Times affirms "hang out" is the new "date".

[Mrlonelyone]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/fashion/the-end-of-courtship.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

Instead of dinner-and-a-movie, which seems as obsolete as a rotary phone, they rendezvous over phone texts, Facebook posts, instant messages and other “non-dates” that are leaving a generation confused about how to land a boyfriend or girlfriend.

 

“The new date is ‘hanging out,’ ” said Denise Hewett, 24, an associate television producer in Manhattan, who is currently developing a show about this frustrating new romantic landscape. As one male friend recently told her: “I don’t like to take girls out. I like to have them join in on what I’m doing — going to an event, a concert.”

 

For evidence, look no further than “Girls,” HBO’s cultural weather vane for urban 20-somethings, where none of the main characters paired off in a manner that might count as courtship even a decade ago. In Sunday’s opener for Season 2, Hannah (Lena Dunham) and Adam (Adam Driver), who last season forged a relationship by texting each other nude photos, are shown lying in bed, debating whether being each other’s “main hang” constitutes actual dating.

[Balzac]

Amongst women in MBA programs it's Hookup Culture w female complaints about male immaturity.

[gaius]

I was reading that the other day. I'm not sure how widespread that is, or if it's just a phenomenon among upper class younger people in upper class alcoves. My sister's in high school and I don't see or hear about any of that among her friends. They seem to pair off in mostly traditional manner.

[Mrlonelyone]

It is my experience that if you straight ask a woman on a date she will react as if you just met her, presented her with a 24 karat diamond ring, and asked for her hand in marriage. With absolute terror.

 

To be honest I can say that in my life, with all the sex I've had, I've only ever been on one formal date which ended badly. (It was with someone I've written about here much. Refereed to as "S". "S" and I would hang out with her sitting in my lap. I would ask her on a date, with her sitting in my lap. She would refuse the date, while sitting in my lap. Then put my head under her shirt, while sitting in my lap.

 

Four years latter, at the very end of our on and off hanging out we went on a formal date. Which ended badly.

 

I learned from that experience, and other experiences that formalized "dating" is just not the way to think.

 

I was reading that the other day. I'm not sure how widespread that is, or if it's just a phenomenon among upper class younger people in upper class alcoves. My sister's in high school and I don't see or hear about any of that among her friends. They seem to pair off in mostly traditional manner.

 

I can see why you would think that. I think it is really a generational thing. It is very common among people under 35, and it is the ruel for people between 35 and 20.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Mrlonelyone

[Balzac]

Interesting, I learn so much here.

 

I'm in that demographic you mention and in my world it's all about formal dating. Pretty much the opposite of what you describe. Who knew huh? I'm an urban shelf dweller in East Coast major city.

[Bristolius]

My parents met in college circa 1946. They were part of a small group of men and women. They hung out and eventually paired off.

 

My social experience also is hanging out with men and women. I grew up not even liking the word dating.

 

To me, if I have to the word at all, I'd use it to describe what we do together after we're a couple.

 

As for the article, how does a 24 year old TV producer have credibility? Is this not on the level of a Hot or Not magazine feature?

[carhill]

IME, courtship ended back in the late 60's

[Mrlonelyone]

@Bristolius

 

This may have been the case among college kids in college for a good long time.

 

A person can get a producer credit really easy if they apply themselves. There are all kinds of producers who do everything from provide the money to administer getting coffee for everyone (and on a set with people who all want their half cafe with whip stirred twice and will be a real ****h if they get it stirred thrice.)

 

@Carhill.

 

Weather or not that's a change for the better?

[Nightsky]

“The new date is ‘hanging out,’ ” said Denise Hewett, 24, an associate television producer in Manhattan, who is currently developing a show about this frustrating new romantic landscape. As one male friend recently told her: “I don’t like to take girls out. I like to have them join in on what I’m doing — going to an event, a concert.”

 

For evidence, look no further than “Girls,” HBO’s cultural weather vane for urban 20-somethings, where none of the main characters paired off in a manner that might count as courtship even a decade ago. In Sunday’s opener for Season 2, Hannah (Lena Dunham) and Adam (Adam Driver), who last season forged a relationship by texting each other nude photos, are shown lying in bed, debating whether being each other’s “main hang” constitutes actual dating.

 

I would hardly look to the show "girls" or some 24 year old television producer for what's a date. These are feminist cultural marxist tards.

 

It is my experience that if you straight ask a woman on a date she will react as if you just met her, presented her with a 24 karat diamond ring, and asked for her hand in marriage. With absolute terror.

 

Yeah I can understand how you'd get that reaction. Not really my experience though.

[carhill]

Better? Mixed bag, IMO. There are fewer socially proscribed inhibitions now than at that time; one must also IMO examine the deterioration of the nuclear family and the impacts on social and societal constructs and trends as a result of subsequent choices made within the construct of more 'freedom'.

 

I'm old enough to remember when it was customary to ask a woman's father for her hand in marriage or, at minimum, to meet a young lady's parents *before* 'hanging out'. Nothing like the firm grip of a father's hand and that man to man look to solidify social convention, respect and appropriate behaviors.

[Mrlonelyone]

Better? Mixed bag, IMO. There are fewer socially proscribed inhibitions now than at that time; one must also IMO examine the deterioration of the nuclear family and the impacts on social and societal constructs and trends as a result of subsequent choices made within the construct of more 'freedom'.

 

I'm old enough to remember when it was customary to ask a woman's father for her hand in marriage or, at minimum, to meet a young lady's parents *before* 'hanging out'. Nothing like the firm grip of a father's hand and that man to man look to solidify social convention, respect and appropriate behaviors.

 

 

Ah yes, the old rite of meeting anyone who wants to date your daughter on the porch while cleaning and polishing up your good old shotgun "Betsy". Unmarried mothers didn't stay unmarried in those days. (Just ask Jack Nicholson's mother ... who he grew up thinking was his sister.)

[ls32ssibm]

If I try to be old-fashion or chivalrous towards a date they get creeped out. It reminds me of Jerry Seinfeld telling Elaine (when there is an issue with their airplane seating) she belongs in coach because he's the one accustom to first class. They just aren't used to it, and I sort of blame their hippie baby-boom parents for not teaching them how they should be treated or courted.

[carhill]

Yep, saw a lot of shiny shotguns in my time, along with shiny sacramental chalices. Society has changed markedly in the past two generations, which isn't really that unique. It's been changing all along. Perhaps the permanent end of 'dating' as a formal process is part of that evolution. Is 'hanging out' the new dating? As the trend towards less formal and more deconstructed relationships proceeds, it's perhaps one step along the path. When I was young, parents often commented on the 'crazy youth of today', and in negative ways. Those 'youth' are, in many cases, now grandparents and making comments of our own, including about 'hanging out'. Such is life

[Ruby Slippers]

I still go on dates. I broke up with someone recently - 6 months in, we still went on bona fide dates all the time. Yes, we "hung out", too, but there were always fun dates sprinkled in - dinner, fun day trips, movies, exploring new places.

 

I have just set a goal of lining up a date for Valentine's Day

[Mrlonelyone]

@Carhill

 

My parents are of your generation and they talk about how much more formal everything was back then. It was a time where...if you look at a film about segregated buses...just about everyone was wearing their Sunday best or at worst very clean blu jeans. Now we all just wear sweats. I guess we shouldn't be surprised about dating.

 

@ls32ssibm

Yeah. If you ask a woman on a date in a formal and respectful way. Say you would like to meet and shake hands with her father and respect him... she won't like you.

 

@Ruby slippers.

 

Sure once people are "going out" they go on dates. That's still true.

 

We are talking about the dating around phase. When your just trying to find somoene to go out with but without officially "dating" as boyfriend and girlfriend with any level of commitment.

 

People who were not "going out" used to date for a while before they decided they were "going steady".

[fortyninethousand322]

Eh, I often get confused about some of this stuff too. I figure a dinner at a relatively nice restaurant and a movie with a kiss at the end is probably a date. Whereas inviting a girl to play basketball with you and your friends is probably not. Between those two things is a big huge grey area.

 

I bet many people "hang out" for months with people (sometimes in groups sometimes one on one) without knowing exactly where they stand. I don't know what exactly happened to make things this way.

[FitChick]

I feel sorry for young people. Thank God I'm older.

[somedude81]

Hookups may be fine for college students, but what about after, when they start to build an adult life? The problem is that “young people today don’t know how to get out of hookup culture,”

 

-------------------

 

I never figured out how to get into hookup culture

 

Actual dates, hanging out hasn't worked.

 

It's frustrating reading about stuff like like this and not being able to actually experience it.

 

 

I'm starting my last semester of college pretty soon and I still don't have a fu*king clue what I have to do spend time with a woman in a non-platonic form.

[Radu]

I love the 'specialist' from whom this article came.

 

It reminds me of that time in college when girls would give dating advice with all seriousness, because they were girls and they understood relationships ... but when you actually asked them about their experience you would hear trainwrecks.

LOVE IT !

[edgygirl]

In the country I was born (used to be named 3rd world but is now booming economically and amongst the richest worldwide) traditional dating (dinner and drinks) as a culture did not exist while I was growing up. Not only because people there are warmer and can get to know each other through normal social settings and parties, but also because a 20 or 30 yo guy still lived with his parents and would not be able to afford traditional dating.

 

I think this (new, in the US) hookup culture is in great part due to the current economical situation. I feel that guys in their early 30s who ask me out are usually concerned about being able to afford dinner or so - they only say "let's go for a drink" as opposed to pre-recession when they would always invite for dinner.

 

But even these days, after men hit 35 I feel they approach dating in a more traditional way as they know most women will be looking for a relationship, and we see a guy who can't even afford to pay for dinner as someone who is not marriage material, as someone who won't even contribute their share to the relationship in the future (quite normal these days with the current employment rate). That's the reality even for women who don't need to be supported (as many women in large cities, as the article describes, these days women are making more than their male counterparts... btw totally flooring that thread about men having to be cautious about getting married and lose all their money to women... lol).

 

I honestly feel sorry for girls in their 20s these days. We're going back to neanderthal days, soon the guys will be hitting us on the head to take us back to their caves.

[stillafool]

I feel sorry for young people. Thank God I'm older.

 

Me too! When I was young it was exciting to get dressed up on a Saturday night and wait for my date to pick me up, take me out to dinner, dancing or a concert, etc. They were always dressed up, car washed and it was wonderful. Men would call you all the time. It was great being courted.

[TheZebra]

All of my relationships NEVER started with a date. Thinking back to all of them, we were always hanging out, sometimes alone, sometimes with friends, sometimes even with family and then we eventually became a relationship. With my most recent ex, we didn't actually go on what is a real 'date' until after we had already decided to be in a relationship.

 

I've never had a guy I was in a relationship with ever come up to me and say 'would you like to go on a date?'

 

The pro, IMO, is that it's a more laid back atmosphere for both people. No one's expecting anything. This, of course, works well if both people feel the same way about each other rather than one person crushing hard and the other feeling nothing. The con is that you don't know the intention of the other person until someone makes a move.

[Mr.White]

NO. That is like saying a penis is like a vagina.

 

Hanging out is hanging out.

 

A date is a date.

 

A date = Looking for something

 

Hanging out = Just having fun

 

Silly "specialist"

[Mrlonelyone]

All of my relationships NEVER started with a date. Thinking back to all of them, we were always hanging out, sometimes alone, sometimes with friends, sometimes even with family and then we eventually became a relationship. With my most recent ex, we didn't actually go on what is a real 'date' until after we had already decided to be in a relationship.

 

I've never had a guy I was in a relationship with ever come up to me and say 'would you like to go on a date?'

 

The pro, IMO, is that it's a more laid back atmosphere for both people. No one's expecting anything. This, of course, works well if both people feel the same way about each other rather than one person crushing hard and the other feeling nothing. The con is that you don't know the intention of the other person until someone makes a move.

 

What you describe is to me what being friends first is or should be. You are just around each other and enjoy each others company. Then at some point you decide you can be with that person one on one. Then at some point you decide your a couple.

[TheZebra]

What you describe is to me what being friends first is or should be. You are just around each other and enjoy each others company. Then at some point you decide you can be with that person one on one. Then at some point you decide your a couple.

 

I suppose so, though in all situations it's not like we were friends for years or even months before we decided we wanted to be in a relationship. Usually we met, started hanging out for a couple of weeks, and then we decided we wanted to be a couple. Usually the 'decision' happened when the guy would do something like hold my hand, or kiss me, or something.