Angry at Women;;;;;;;Frustrated and Confused

[hopeless]

It just seems like women go for goofs. Why? This is a serioius question.

 

I have half a dozen single male friends, all well educated, kind, gentle, good looking, talented, good jobs. They can't get a date to save their life. Maybe its because we live in Vancouver, BC,

where women are known for their hatred of men. But still, generalizations are always false, but I am absolutely confounded.

 

In my last 2 relationships I was hit, kicked, screamed at, abused verbally and physically by women. They were weaker and smaller than me, thank God, so they did little damage when they;

 

a. backfisted me in the face while driving

b. screamed I HATE YOU in public places

c. punched and kicked me in the legs

d. broke my possessions

 

Now, I know what you women will say. WHAT DID YOU DO TO MAKE HER THAT ANGRY? But you see, thats hypocritical, because if a man hits a woman, they say "HOW DARE YOU?". So, its okay for women to abuse men but not for men to hit women. I would prefer that nobody hit anybody, but thats just me.

 

So I gotta throw down the gauntlet, flame resistant suit on.

 

a. Women, you get what you asked for;.......big macho lugs seem to win, caring, gentle educated men lose. So does this mean in order to marry I must become a boozing, macho, swaggering louse?

b. Women, you seem to want me and reject us at the same time. Or is Lesbianism so rampant that straight relationships are a thing of the past?

c. Women, you spend thousands of dollars on mini skirts, heels, makeup, hair, jackets, purses, do you do it so that other women can compete with you for who looks the hottest? Because you certainly arent doing it for men.

 

I guess these are age old questions, the war of the sexes. But honestly, I am at the point of just being gay because basically girls, you are high maintenance.

 

Flame, reassure, debate, question, but I hope that women reading this understand how y'all look to us single men.

 

Its a friggin hopeless situation. No?

[jenny]

er.. i understand that you are angry. and i sense you're frustrated by other, real, problems. so let's get this out of the way so no one dismisses you as a burn out troll, ok?

 

1. geography does not determine temperment.

2. 'generalizations are generally incorrect.' blah blah blah - i'm sure you know. generalizations usually function as a way to release frustration.

 

my question to you is: what are you frustrated about, exactly? what do you think is happening here? most people go through life without too much violent drama, despite what the media might suggest. do you think there is a reason you are drawn to these violent women, even subconsciously?

 

more specifically, what happpened in your last break up? why did you guys break up? how about the relationship beforehand?

 

as for now - are you being rejected, often, and hence your frustration about the package of women not matching their collective intent? because, man, there are better ways to deal with not getting laid.

 

anyway, i did *not* take offense at your post. but i do hope your next one is more personal and rigourous about your own situation.

[hopeless]

Hi Jenny, thx for yer constructive answer. But first, before I start introspecting, tell me, is there a small chance I am right? My frustration is in seeing so many good men passed over and so many women go after idiots.

 

My own situation, let me learn more about this board first. I never like others to more about me then I know about them. There are various myths at play;

 

a. all men only want sex.......not true

b. i am drawn to abusive women out of a pattern of behavior, it could be true, but just as likely that women like to abuse, did you see Monster? It aint so rare. Please, DONT BLAME THE VICTIM OF ABUSE......blame the abuser.

 

So the tone of your response, while on the surface, caring, is really kind of controllling, it assumes negative behaviors on my part, as if I am choosing abusive women. There is a chance, you must admit, that abuse of men by women is widespread.

 

Naw, on second thought, Jenny, we should let it slide for now. I gotta understand the mind set on this board. I see alot of hope here, I am getting the sense that women are actually human, and thats encouraging.

[GiveAndTake]

I agree with you Jenny.

 

There is a reason why people are drawn to certain 'types' of people.

 

To hopeless...

 

Think about when you were a kid. Were your parents violent? Your mother specifically? How about older sisters? Were they violent? Any female in authority that was violent could be the reason you're attracted to these types of women now. It's very common.

 

I think we are drawn to the negatives we grew up with because it gives us a chance to retaliate as an adult.

 

But, unfortunately, we never really do retaliate because unless our dysfunction gets resolved, we never become adults mentally so we just keep repeating the pattern.

[hopeless]

I have seen nothing but violence from women since I was young, you are right. Every woman I dated or married was violent. What about you? Do you hit your bfs? Do you scream at them and belittle them? Might be so, might be so.

 

My relationships had many good aspects. Every man I know has been either hit, controlled or verbally abused. Its so common I am beginning to be......hopeless.

 

My own situation, i have had thousands of dollars worth of counselling. I am only interested, u2, in whether you have had counselling too? Have you been the patient, for if that is true, then maybe you can play doctor.

 

Sorry for the cranky tone of my response.......its just that I get sick of the old party line;;;;;;;;most of what u2 are saying is Oprah Winfry stuff........negative childhood, negative patterns, drawn to what is worst for us...its like a common mythology, pop psychology.

 

Now, I know you are answering sincerely, but the way u set up the discussion in your reply, forces me into a corner. I am supposed to confess all the horrible things that happened to me to 2 strangers? First, tell me about yourselves, then there is 2 way communication and equal power. I need to know your inner demons as well, before I discuss mine. This makes for an equal power relationship, and healthy dialogue.

 

But simply assuming that I am selecting bad mates.......its an assumption.

 

What I am really saying is its hopeless. After 10 grand in psychotherapy literally years of working on ME......i see few women doing the same. They all jsut throw these Oprah Winfrey party lines around, I mean its like a bloody Sarah McLaughlin concert, full of sunflower seed muffins, calico cats and ladies who call themselves wimmin.

 

What I am saying is..........look at yourself. Honestly, sincerely, what I am saying has truth. Not ready for the Oprah thing until I get a sense that you are as wiling to vulnerable on this board as you expect me to. Set an example, come clean, what is YOUR love life like?

[jenny]

hmmm. i take your point. i'm just trying to respond to you as though you were a female friend, actually, and i do, in fact, tend to force the 'take responsibility for the consistent patterns of behaviour' response.

 

so, it's not gendered, but possibly controlling. i do very much like personal accountability. i can't read where you are in all of this: but i don't believe your repeated appearance with abusive women, nor your current philosophy, are random.

 

but, g-d, yes: you are soo not responsible for your abuse at the hands of these women: they sound like right proper bitches, in fact. sorry if i implied elsewise - that i totally did not mean to do. but that does mean i'm going to participate in a train of thought that suggests all women from vancouver are bitches: that would just be unproductive. i don't really get why you would take a personal problem and try to solve it that way.

 

so, to pony up emotionally: i also feel like i have suffered because of insane females in my life - i have never met a male who would behave in the way that at least 4 of the women i know would - and i do agree people tend to overlook rank insanity in women because it is considered their emotional perogative, which is crap.

 

but i look for this pattern too; my mother was brilliant and playful but also totally unreliable and illogical. she was never petty, though, and that is the worst thing i constantly encounter in women. in myself, too, of course.

[hopeless]

Thank you so much for your caring and thoughtful response, especially with my cranky reply. Okay, you got my attention Jenny. I can let down the frustration wall and maybe get somewhere.

 

Again, thx for being positive in the midst of my negativity. We making progress girl......we making progress here.

[FreeMe]

Originally posted by hopeless

In my last 2 relationships I was hit, kicked, screamed at, abused verbally and physically by women. They were weaker and smaller than me, thank God, so they did little damage when they;

 

a. backfisted me in the face while driving

b. screamed I HATE YOU in public places

c. punched and kicked me in the legs

d. broke my possessions

So, its okay for women to abuse men but not for men to hit women.

 

NO, No, No. It's not okay for women to hit men. That's horrible. None of the things you listed are acceptable - backfisted you in the face while driving? Cripes - that is very serious abuse. I'm a woman and I only know two women who were crazy enough to do all that but these two are the exception. Of all the other women I know and have known, none of them would do things like that.

 

The things you mention above are severe abuse - if the women had been stronger you could have been hurt badly. What you're experiencing is not normal in my world. Maybe there is some cultural difference (I'm in the Northeastern U.S.) but even allowing for that it seems extreme. All I can tell you is that there are plenty of good, nice, caring women out there and it's a shame you're basing your opinion of us on women with severe problems understanding boundaries and respect.

[moimeme]

There is a tendency, as Jenny said, to resort to taking comfort in generalizations when one is frustrated and cynical. So the betrayed woman decides that all men are cheaters and liars. You know that to extrapolate from your own anecdotal evidence to the general is fallacious.

 

a. Women, you get what you asked for;.......big macho lugs seem to win, caring, gentle educated men lose. So does this mean in order to marry I must become a boozing, macho, swaggering louse?

 

One of the biggest, and most ridiculous myths. Generally perpetuated by 'gentle, nice guys' who are woefully unable to see or acknowledge their own flaws. My ex continually described himself as a 'nice guy'. He hadn't the slightest concept of how not nice he was. So I tend to look askance at these 'nice guys' who believe this BS. A second point about this is that I am sure these 'nice guys' have not spent a whole lot of time getting to know the 'jerks' they think are getting the women who may not be 'jerks' at all. Bottom line on this little myth: BOGUS.

 

b. Women, you seem to want me and reject us at the same time. Or is Lesbianism so rampant that straight relationships are a thing of the past?

 

We want good men. Honest men. Kind men. We sometimes mistake a fellow for same, only to discover that, after all, they don't live up to their advertising. Then we reject you. Again, look a little closer at you - are you absolutely positive that you are that wonderful human being you imagine yourself to be? Even if you are, we can all stand improvement - find things which could use adjustment and work on them. We especially want men who don't spout these old, tired generalizations as though they are new, brilliant revelations. Guess what? Cynicism isn't really very attractive. If you wear this attitude, you can bet women will not stick around.

 

c. Women, you spend thousands of dollars on mini skirts, heels, makeup, hair, jackets, purses, do you do it so that other women can compete with you for who looks the hottest? Because you certainly arent doing it for men.

 

Some do, some do not. Some men like it, some do not.

 

There is a chance, you must admit, that abuse of men by women is widespread

 

The stats say that female-to-male abuse occurs at about the same rate as male-to-female abuse, but women do less physical damage and don't kill in nearly the numbers that men do.

Honestly, sincerely, what I am saying has truth

 

No, but if you believe this stuff, you will certainly turn a lot of women off.

 

Maybe there is some cultural difference (I'm in the Northeastern U.S.) but even allowing for that it seems extreme.

 

Now that's just ridiculous. Vancouver women are not some sort of cultural anomaly, for pity's sakes.

 

Hopeless, nobody says it's your 'fault' that you have ended up with abusive women, and after X number of bucks in therapy, you should have already heard that and understood it. What it does mean is that you learned 'love' in conjunction with 'abuse' and therefore your brain sees 'abuser' and thinks that's where love will be found again.

 

I don't care how many bad experiences you have had or what's befallen you, it is unhelpful to you and your case to become cynical and adopt the attitudes you profess above. That sort of thing is definitely off-putting. I think some men feel that women will rush to rescue them from their bitter selves - not gonna happen. You'll not find ladies flocking to you until you can figure out how to turn your attitude around.

[FreeMe]

Originally posted by moimeme

 

Maybe there is some cultural difference (I'm in the Northeastern U.S.) but even allowing for that it seems extreme.

 

Now that's just ridiculous. Vancouver women are not some sort of cultural anomaly, for pity's sakes.

 

 

 

I meant Canada in general from where I'm from.

[moimeme]

I meant Canada in general from where I'm from

 

It's still stupid. It has nothing to do with the geographic area. It's fairly common for people coming from abusive situations to find abusive situations again and again in life. Children of alcoholics marry alcoholics. It has to do with conditioning and nothing to do with what sort of women live where.

[fredrolin]

Originally posted by hopeless

I have half a dozen single male friends, all well educated, kind, gentle, good looking, talented, good jobs. They can't get a date to save their life.

 

 

I know several smart educated attractive women who only date losers. Why? some like "The Bad Boy" or they go for looks.

It seems like every time they date a "normal" guy as in the quote above, they find them boring, wishy washy or less of a challenge.

 

It's crazy but it's true.

 

Before I got married I usually dated overweight or homely girls because the good looking ones were alot of work to satisfy or just plain crazy.

[FreeMe]

Originally posted by moimeme

I meant Canada in general from where I'm from

 

It's still stupid. It has nothing to do with the geographic area.

 

I said CULTURAL differences, not geographic. Big difference.

 

It's fairly common for people coming from abusive situations to find abusive situations again and again in life.

 

I completely agree with you. I've done it myself.

[moimeme]

Cripes. OK, let's cover all bases. Canadian women are not brought up to be abusive. There is no culture of abusive women in Canada. It is not longitudinally, latitudinally, culturally, linguistically, religiously, historically, astrologically, astrophysically, psychologically, physiologically, biologically, or in any other way true.

[FreeMe]

LOL - I didn't mean they were brought up to be abusive. In some cultures the women are more aggressive, less likely to put up with crap. I wish I was from one of them. LOL

[yes]

while in some cultures women are indeed encouraged to stand up for themselves more than in other ones, standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being ABUSIVE or AGGRESSIVE

 

-yes

[FreeMe]

yes: Just said that

[Fritz]

Originally posted by moimeme

There is a tendency, as Jenny said, to resort to taking comfort in generalizations when one is frustrated and cynical. So the betrayed woman decides that all men are cheaters and liars. You know that to extrapolate from your own anecdotal evidence to the general is fallacious.

 

a. Women, you get what you asked for;.......big macho lugs seem to win, caring, gentle educated men lose. So does this mean in order to marry I must become a boozing, macho, swaggering louse?

 

One of the biggest, and most ridiculous myths. Generally perpetuated by 'gentle, nice guys' who are woefully unable to see or acknowledge their own flaws. My ex continually described himself as a 'nice guy'. He hadn't the slightest concept of how not nice he was. So I tend to look askance at these 'nice guys' who believe this BS. A second point about this is that I am sure these 'nice guys' have not spent a whole lot of time getting to know the 'jerks' they think are getting the women who may not be 'jerks' at all. Bottom line on this little myth: BOGUS.

 

 

Hmm, I have to agree and disagree on this one. I think there is some merit to the "myth" these days in the US/western world. Is it always true? Definately not. I think it has to do with general trends in society, as in increased matieralism, consumerism, lookism and several other "isms". People are basically becoming more selfish. What can you do for me? Hmm? Its all about "me, me, me" and those who are of the "nice" category end up getting stomped on and thus bitter (both men and women).

 

I don't deny that a lot of "bitter" guys n gals probably don't look inward to see how not nice they are (or their ingrained patterns of choosing bad partners) but its hard to ignore so many stories of people getting screwed over. My experience has been nice guys try to save the girl (misplaced or foolhardy chivalry), girl screws over guy in the end. Nice gal tries to "change" jerk, gets screwed over. Us "nice folk" just seem to have a problem hooking up together for some reason or another.

[moimeme]

Hmm? Its all about "me, me, me" and those who are of the "nice" category end up getting stomped on and thus bitter (both men and women).

 

If you buy a house that falls down, it's not the house's fault. If you buy a car that loses its wheels, it's not the car's fault. Don't blame people for your poor judgment. I'll bet you that somewhere along the line, you ignored red flags. I'll bet that you maybe even picked these people against your own better judgement.

 

Yes, it is nice to make allowances, but it is foolish to make too many allowances. I've done that. More times than I can count. I am not bitter. I don't blame a single soul but me. It's not about being 'nice' or not. It's about learning to discern what connotes a red flag (i.e. sign that future behaviour will continue to be unpleasant) and then to understand that if you go forward beyond the red flags, you are in for trouble.

 

The other extreme is to dismiss someone when you think you see a hint of red out of the corner of your eye. 'Nice' people never jump to conclusions prematurely, rather they hang in there in an attempt to be loyal and faithful. None of this is bad.

 

Rather than complaining about all this, learn. Become wise. Figure out what a red flag is and is not. Continue to make allowances, but understand there's a point where it's counterproductive to do so.

 

As for changing and saving people, that's just foolish. You can't change someone who has no intention of changing nor save someone who doesn't realize he is lost. Those are endeavours doomed to failure right from the start - again, you haven't been 'nice', you've been foolish. Big difference. Take it from one who knows.

[MarKus]

Originally posted by fredrolin

I know several smart educated attractive women who only date losers. Why? some like "The Bad Boy" or they go for looks.

It seems like every time they date a "normal" guy as in the quote above, they find them boring, wishy washy or less of a challenge.

 

I can agree with that, thay usually go for the a**h***s that treat them like dirt

[Melodic]

I can agree with that, thay usually go for the a**h***s that treat them like dirt

 

That's equivalent to one of the ladies on the board stating that men only go out with women whose breast are bigger than her brain.

 

In other words, it's bs an you should know better. There are some women brought up to believe that they are worth little more than dirt who don't mind being treated like it, but the same goes for men.

 

That being said, there is no excuse for abuse whether it be visited upon males, females, children, or animals. The fact that you were drawn to abusers is not in fact your fault and should never be taken as such. However, it is important to recognize the capability for abuse in people and work to avoid it.

 

All women are not snakes or evil. Some men and women are capable of healthy relationships. If you don't yet believe that after years in therapy, I might start therapist.

 

I personally suffered some catastrophic sexual abuse as a young child. I was able to after a couple of months in therapy belive that not all men were pigs who wanted to hurt me, and now I've been in a perfectly healthy relationship for 3 years. Mind you, I am still concerned about your passive-aggressive attitude towards women in general. This is something that your therapist should have begun conquering long ago. If your recent relationships have set you back, then maybe you should make a pact not to be in one until you feel you can respect and not have latent hostile feelings toward women again. However, you know that that is personal choice. Please let us know how you are doing.

 

Good luck.

Mel

[meanon]

I was going to post this elsewhere but was unable to do so:

 

Hopeless, I was intersted in your angry women thread and will reply later. In case I miss you as you whirl out of here in a fury let me say that two things strike me:

 

You said in the earlier thread you were suspicious of the women on the forum, they needed to prove themselves to you before you would deal with them. This is understandable given your experience but what has happened since shows that you have been ruthless in pursuit of that you dislike most and have then got very angry yourself when you have found some evidence that meets what you are looking for. Really if you are determined to find something, is it any wonder that you do? It means neither that people are as bad as you assume they are, nor that they are representative of the whole forum.

 

Secondly, it strikes me that be being so angry at everyone effectively prevents you doing what you came here for in the first place, getting help with a serious problem that has made you very unhappy. You are not the first person to have done this and you won't be the last. I could be wrong of course but please think about what is driving your reactions before you toss in the towel. Give yourself a chance. The only person who loses from you behaving like this is you.

[faux]

I can agree that the law favors women, and laws that are in place to protect against harassment, stalking, and abuse were set up for women and not men. Men are very often not taken seriously or treated fair in these situations. These laws need to seriously be revised, or at least the general attitude of law enforcement and the public needs to change.

 

It is far too easy for the bad women to go out and abuse these laws. I can understand how much easier it would be to be wronged by one of these women and direct your hatred to every woman alive. I hear stories often from attorneys about how a woman falsely accuses a man of something, makes his life hell in the process, and wins in court despite having no proof.

 

As to all women being evil this is entirely true. Also remember, however, that all men are evil as well. Humans all have a capacity for evil. Not all of them, man or woman, choose to be bad people though. Keep that in mind.

 

Now, are all women bad people? No. Just the ones that eat chocolate.

[moimeme]

No. Just the ones that eat chocolate.

 

 

Hmph. I resemble that.

[befuddled11]

Originally posted by hopeless

But simply assuming that I am selecting bad mates.......its an assumption.

 

I disagree that it's an assumption.

 

Who is the "common denominator" in all of these bad relationships you're involved in?

 

YOU.

 

Now before you get your boxers in a bunch, I am NOT SAYING that you are the reason the women you've been involved with have been abusive in one form or another. I am saying, however, that if you're continually ended up with the same kind of abusive girlfriend, it would stand to reason that there's "something" about this type of woman that you're:

 

a) either attracted to

 

b) that you attract

 

And you need to do some soul-searching to figure it out.

 

While living in the great province of BC myself, I got myself tangled up in a very abusive marriage (I'm a woman, by the way). Was it my first abusive relationship? Nope. My very first real relationship, that I had starting at the age of 18, was also abusive (not physical abuse like my marriage was, but emotionally, mentally and verbally). But back up a bit further. How was my childhood? I grew up with a very abusive Mother......who was physically, verbally, mentally and emotionally abusive and just downright cruel...and had she pulled what she did on me *TODAY*, she'd be locked up for many years to come.

 

So while you poo-poo the nothing of our childhoods (negative) playing a part in the type of partner we choose, let me tell ya........after years of soul searching and reflecting on WHY I so easily went from one abusive relationship to another, it occured to me that deep down inside, I maybe was "Drawn toward" abusive types....because that was "familiar" to me. The chaos and tension and feeling inadequate as a child crossed over into being a young adult.......and the reason I couldn't see the forest for the trees was because the trees felt like "home"...familiar, comfortable, even in a dysfunctional kind of way.

 

And deep down, even though it was subconscious, I was attracted to the common personality traits of abusive men: charming, obnoxious (err, overly confident and not afraid to speak their mind and stand up for themself), could make a room of strangers laugh, loved by everyone (course they didn't know what went on behind closed doors), charismatic, a challenge, etc. I suspect I had a type of subconscious 'radar' to pick these dudes out....AND....they had the radar to pick women like myself out: the type of woman who's very forgiving, who puts up with crap under the belief that it's good to be "forgiving", the type who is (I'm not anymore) somewhat insecure and would be more apt to "cling" to an abusive, cheating wanker than stand up for herself and leave.

 

I am opposed to anyone abusing anyone......male or female. I don't doubt for one minute that there are nasty women out there who abuse men. As an ex-abused woman, I have no tolerance for any human being who abuses another.

 

Have you sat down and tried to figure out a common thread between these bad women you end up involved with? I bet if you do, you'll find very common traits among them all.....traits you're very much drawn to....traits you need to learn to identify so that you can better "pick out" a potential "bad partner" in the future.

 

I've found from my own experiences with abusive men, there are definite and clear "red flags" to take note of very early on:

 

-flip out over the littlest of things..and make a huge deal out of something not going their way

-major road rage

-a dysfunctional relationship with their mother.......either a blatant disrespect for her, OR a blatant "love/hate" relationship.....where they speak to her and treat her like crap a lot of the time, but are very very protective of her and would defend her to their death as well.

-a problem with booze or drugs......both of which totally exacerbate their ugliness (abusiveness)

-a blatant disregard for people's feelings in general.......whether it's the waiter at the restaurant, or the guy in front of them at the red light who doesn't step on the gas quite "quickly enough" when the light turns green (you get my drift).

-very soon into the relationship, an obvious desire to try and "change me"..whether it's how I dress, what I do in bed, what friends I hang out with, how often I talk to family on the phone, etc etc.

-has a hard time telling the truth, even when it comes to little things

-selfish and will not stand to NOT get their own way; unable to compromise

-always has to have the last word

-commonly refers to female coworkers or exes as "b*tches" or other derogatory names

-when the issue of domestic abuse comes up (usually brought up by me, just to get a sense of how they react to this topic), they strangely have not much to say about it, OR they are OVERLY dramatic about how horrible it is OR else they don't acknowledge the fact that women are abused and they go on and on about some ex of theirs that abused them.

 

These are just some of the red flags I've identified, from trial and error, and fine-tuning my intuition over the years.

 

Also........you and your friends......what kind of places are you going to meet these women you end up with? For an example, if you're all meeting them at upscale clubs or something......and they all turn out to be spoiled, bratty, golddigging, selfish, temper-tantrumish witches..well, maybe you all need to meet women somewhere else, you know? (that's just an example).