Struggling men: play the game or play the woman?

[jobaba]

I've been asking myself a question lately. Do you play the game or play the woman? Which simply means this. Make yourself more physically attractive, confident, and less wussy to appeal to women's physical and emotional urges ... OR ... find women who don't subscribe to physical and emotional urges.

 

I ran across this article today ...

 

http://www.attractingmenmastery.com/2011/02/should-i-date-a-man-im-not-attracted-to/

 

Which brought me to this conclusion. I have no idea what Nicole looks like at all, but no matter how much I worked on my 'game', Nicole would never go for me. I have never been called 'HOT' in my life. Cute yes, but I digress. Nicole is looking for a guy with a certain level of physical attractiveness and there is no compromise.

 

Flipside...

 

On the subject of whether dating is possible without physical attraction, here is the response of one of my friend's wives recently (who I think is attractive)...

 

"I don't really look at the physical so much. If they guy has good qualities: smart, kind, and funny, an attraction starts."

 

To which my conclusion is this...

 

Some men (me included) are spending way too much time going after the wrong kind of woman. Spending time, energy, money, and emotional attachment to a woman who will never compromise her physical standards.

 

Meanwhile, other women hold such things nowhere near as important. They are not necessarily even less attractive. Seek and find.

 

So ... women who think like the latter. Where do you hang out?

[OneFootOut]

I've been asking myself a question lately. Do you play the game or play the woman? Which simply means this. Make yourself more physically attractive, confident, and less wussy to appeal to women's physical and emotional urges ... OR ... find women who don't subscribe to physical and emotional urges.

 

I ran across this article today ...

 

http://www.attractingmenmastery.com/2011/02/should-i-date-a-man-im-not-attracted-to/

 

Which brought me to this conclusion. I have no idea what Nicole looks like at all, but no matter how much I worked on my 'game', Nicole would never go for me. I have never been called 'HOT' in my life. Cute yes, but I digress. Nicole is looking for a guy with a certain level of physical attractiveness and there is no compromise.

 

Flipside...

 

On the subject of whether dating is possible without physical attraction, here is the response of one of my friend's wives recently (who I think is attractive)...

 

"I don't really look at the physical so much. If they guy has good qualities: smart, kind, and funny, an attraction starts."

 

To which my conclusion is this...

 

Some men (me included) are spending way too much time going after the wrong kind of woman. Spending time, energy, money, and emotional attachment to a woman who will never compromise her physical standards.

 

Meanwhile, other women hold such things nowhere near as important. They are not necessarily even less attractive. Seek and find.

 

So ... women who think like the latter. Where do you hang out?

 

 

By George, I think he's got it!

 

This is a very well written post, and I think you hit the nail on the head. A lot of males and females are so obsessed? with finding the "visual ideal" that they have developed in their mind (due to media, society's expectations, fantasy, friends opinions, porn, to impress family?) that they tend to chase that image with blinders on. To which as you pointed out is unavailable most of the time regardless of how you change yourself to what you think would fit their standards.

 

Meanwhile, those blinders keep you from looking at anyone different, and even considering the prospect of finding something much more deep and meaningful in someone who doesn't fit that visual in your mind.

 

Once again... it's putting too much emphasis on the look (yours and hers) rather than seeking, and offering the quality - which is the ultimate foundation that makes a relationship work and last.. When you get old and tired, it will become even more clear heheh

 

I enjoy reading your posts, it’s cool to be able to see your evolvement and growth and grasping of new understanding through this crazy relationship stuff

[ErgoStep]

People become less superficial with age.

 

And most of them aren't as superficial as the media would lead you to believe.

[ErgoStep]

However, the physical/emotional attraction is the intelligence within you, it is the biological spark that communicates on a deeper level inside.

 

 

Bull****. Attraction is based on biology. Not some "intelligence."

 

 

 

Many times women ignore this intelligence because the guy is "real nice"…but you will find that if he tries to kiss you or get intimate, your body will react and more than likely pull away since attraction isn't present.

 

 

If she's conditioned to believe that kissing and sex should be delayed, avoided, or eliminated, this is the usual problem.

 

 

If you have that kind of attraction towards a man, it is hard for you to resist him…he's often on your mind, you actually fantasize about him kissing you/making love to you…and the fact that it is difficult for you to resist provides the key to building MORE attraction which is an ebb and flow of resistance.

 

 

Women are conditioned to resist.

[jobaba]

By George, I think he's got it!

 

This is a very well written post, and I think you hit the nail on the head. A lot of males and females are so obsessed? with finding the "visual ideal" that they have developed in their mind (due to media, society's expectations, fantasy, friends opinions, porn, to impress family?) that they tend to chase that image with blinders on. To which as you pointed out is unavailable most of the time regardless of how you change yourself to what you think would fit their standards.

 

Meanwhile, those blinders keep you from looking at anyone different, and even considering the prospect of finding something much more deep and meaningful in someone who doesn't fit that visual in your mind.

 

Once again... it's putting too much emphasis on the look (yours and hers) rather than seeking, and offering the quality - which is the ultimate foundation that makes a relationship work and last.. When you get old and tired, it will become even more clear heheh

 

I enjoy reading your posts, it’s cool to be able to see your evolvement and growth and grasping of new understanding through this crazy relationship stuff

 

Thanks OneFoot!

 

When I can suppress my bitterness, I think I'm a pretty darn OK person. Haha.

[Wolf18]

I've been asking myself a question lately. Do you play the game or play the woman? Which simply means this. Make yourself more physically attractive, confident, and less wussy to appeal to women's physical and emotional urges ... OR ... find women who don't subscribe to physical and emotional urges.

 

I ran across this article today ...

 

http://www.attractingmenmastery.com/2011/02/should-i-date-a-man-im-not-attracted-to/

 

Which brought me to this conclusion. I have no idea what Nicole looks like at all, but no matter how much I worked on my 'game', Nicole would never go for me. I have never been called 'HOT' in my life. Cute yes, but I digress. Nicole is looking for a guy with a certain level of physical attractiveness and there is no compromise.

 

Flipside...

 

On the subject of whether dating is possible without physical attraction, here is the response of one of my friend's wives recently (who I think is attractive)...

 

"I don't really look at the physical so much. If they guy has good qualities: smart, kind, and funny, an attraction starts."

 

To which my conclusion is this...

 

Some men (me included) are spending way too much time going after the wrong kind of woman. Spending time, energy, money, and emotional attachment to a woman who will never compromise her physical standards.

 

Meanwhile, other women hold such things nowhere near as important. They are not necessarily even less attractive. Seek and find.

 

So ... women who think like the latter. Where do you hang out?

 

 

Every time I meet a girl like your friends wife...well she's already married/has a boyfriend/a thousand suitors, and at the end of the day, she ends up with the most phyically or monetarily attractive guy anyway. Why? Precisely for this reason, she doesnt appear to be that shallow so everyone gives it a go.

 

Take what they say with a microscopic grain of salt.

[jobaba]

Every time I meet a girl like your friends wife...well she's already married/has a boyfriend/a thousand suitors, and at the end of the day, she ends up with the most phyically or monetarily attractive guy anyway. Why? Precisely for this reason, she doesnt appear to be that shallow so everyone gives it a go.

 

Take what they say with a microscopic grain of salt.

 

That's true Wolf. The woman in question happens to have a very successful career and make a lot of money. So, I'd still have to live up those standards.

 

However, it's a sharp contrast to the first example given in the original post, which represents a lot of women based on real life experiences and female posters on this message board.

 

At least if you can get past the first round, you have a fighting chance.

[somedude81]

I'm the very definition of a struggling guy, and there is no hope in sight.

 

Thanks to my physical appearance, women are never physically attracted to me, and I wasn't blessed with an great confidence, charm or game.

 

Trying to work on my physical appearance has a ceiling. I have a decent body but no matter what I do, I will always be 5'6. I think I dress fine as well, but I could dress nicer if I had a lot of cash, but I don't know how much affect that would even have.

 

As for "find women who don't subscribe to physical and emotional urges," do they even exist? From what I've seen, the only women that don't have very high standards are the bottom of the barrel type girls. In other words, the only girls who aren't that picky are the ones that men have ignored. An example of that were the couple of obese girls who pursued me.

 

Sadly, nobody else thinks I'm good enough for them

[jobaba]

I'm the very definition of a struggling guy, and there is no hope in sight.

 

Thanks to my physical appearance, women are never physically attracted to me, and I wasn't blessed with an great confidence, charm or game.

 

Trying to work on my physical appearance has a ceiling. I have a decent body but no matter what I do, I will always be 5'6. I think I dress fine as well, but I could dress nicer if I had a lot of cash, but I don't know how much affect that would even have.

 

As for "find women who don't subscribe to physical and emotional urges," do they even exist? From what I've seen, the only women that don't have very high standards are the bottom of the barrel type girls. In other words, the only girls who aren't that picky are the ones that men have ignored. An example of that were the couple of obese girls who pursued me.

 

Sadly, nobody else thinks I'm good enough for them

 

Well. Sorry to point out the incongruity of your post, but you describe yourself as a short, physically unattractive man. Yet, you show disdain for obese, physically unattractive women. Ponder that for a second...

 

Random hot smart woman...

 

 

Intelligence is hot!

[OneFootOut]

I'm the very definition of a struggling guy, and there is no hope in sight.

 

Thanks to my physical appearance, women are never physically attracted to me, and I wasn't blessed with an great confidence, charm or game.

 

Trying to work on my physical appearance has a ceiling. I have a decent body but no matter what I do, I will always be 5'6. I think I dress fine as well, but I could dress nicer if I had a lot of cash, but I don't know how much affect that would even have.

 

As for "find women who don't subscribe to physical and emotional urges," do they even exist? From what I've seen, the only women that don't have very high standards are the bottom of the barrel type girls. In other words, the only girls who aren't that picky are the ones that men have ignored. An example of that were the couple of obese girls who pursued me.

 

Sadly, nobody else thinks I'm good enough for them

 

 

*stunned and speechless*

[somedude81]

Well. Sorry to point out the incongruity of your post, but you describe yourself as a short, physically unattractive man. Yet, you show disdain for obese, physically unattractive women. Ponder that for a second...

I describe myself as a short, average looking man with a decent body. And I've spent a lot of time in the gym to get that body.

 

And you almost make it sound like being short was a choice and that I could change it.

*stunned and speechless*

Why would you be?

 

The only real standard that most men share in what they require in a woman is, don't be fat. And even then are are some men who prefer BBW.

[allina]

*stunned and speechless*

 

Why??

[OneFootOut]

Why?

 

Because when you refer to them as being "the bottom of the barrel" and comment how they "don't have very high standards", "aren't picky, and men ignore them" solely based on appearance, more so their size, you are being incredibly judgmental at face value. You are also writing off and entire group of the population, and are insulting and degrading a lot of amazing women.

 

 

You almost seem to imply they have no value or self-worth and will take any bum or crack head that gives them the time of day, which couldn’t be further from the truth. Obese women (and men) have just as much heart, soul, and intelligence as anyone. The only thing setting them apart is their body size, which doesn’t make them any less selective or deserving of a quality mate.

 

You go further to say how "sad it is that only 'they' are interested in you". Well, it’s even sadder to see how you can be so judgmental and insulting, when you apparently claim to know how it feels.

 

How sad is it that these “fit” women’s standards and pickiness are so high that they ignore YOU based solely on YOUR appearance? If this is true, maybe “they” aren’t the catch you seem to think they are. Sounds like the ones you want are as harshly judgmental as you.

 

I have a hard time believing all these women you speak of would write someone off due to height. Unless all you are offering up is your Adonis body, muscles, and sharp clothes. Maybe they are looking for more substance than a six pack, or aren’t choosing you for some other reason, like your personality or self-loathing demeanor.

[fortyninethousand322]

I describe myself as a short, average looking man with a decent body. And I've spent a lot of time in the gym to get that body.

 

And you almost make it sound like being short was a choice and that I could change it.

 

Why would you be?

 

The only real standard that most men share in what they require in a woman is, don't be fat. And even then are are some men who prefer BBW.

 

That's pretty true. And it doesn't mean that we want a woman who is rail thin either, there's a whole lot of wiggle room in between those two extremes.

 

And it goes both ways too. I have a good buddy whose girlfriend dumped him in large part because he refused to get in shape. I would assume most women wold feel the same way. And, it's exactly what everyone on here always tell guys to do: get in shape/hit the gym.

[fortyninethousand322]

Why?

 

Because when you refer to them as being "the bottom of the barrel" and comment how they "don't have very high standards", "aren't picky, and men ignore them" solely based on appearance, more so their size, you are being incredibly judgmental at face value. You are also writing off and entire group of the population, and are insulting and degrading a lot of amazing women.

 

 

You almost seem to imply they have no value or self-worth and will take any bum or crack head that gives them the time of day, which couldn’t be further from the truth. Obese women (and men) have just as much heart, soul, and intelligence as anyone. The only thing setting them apart is their body size, which doesn’t make them any less selective or deserving of a quality mate.

 

You go further to say how "sad it is that only 'they' are interested in you". Well, it’s even sadder to see how you can be so judgmental and insulting, when you apparently claim to know how it feels.

 

How sad is it that these “fit” women’s standards and pickiness are so high that they ignore YOU based solely on YOUR appearance? If this is true, maybe “they” aren’t the catch you seem to think they are. Sounds like the ones you want are as harshly judgmental as you.

 

I have a hard time believing all these women you speak of would write someone off due to height. Unless all you are offering up is your Adonis body, muscles, and sharp clothes. Maybe they are looking for more substance than a six pack, or aren’t choosing you for some other reason, like your personality or self-loathing demeanor.

 

If he's not physically attracted to big women, then he's not attracted to big women. There's really no choice here. It's no different than telling me I should like blond women with big breasts, there's just nothing there for me.

 

Attraction really isn't a choice.

[kaleidoscope]

I totally agree that some of the comments are quite rude!

 

If someone is overweight, it doesn't mean they are any less worthy.

 

And they may be overweight for reasons out of their control. Perhaps its related to some medication, etc.

 

Perhaps they are working out every single day and not seeing results.

 

The main reason not to be overweight is for health issues, whether you are a guy or girl.

 

I say just be the best you. Be authentic and honest to others.

 

Lets not hurt each other's feelings along the way.

 

Its good to be tactful and polite.

[verhrzn]

The problem with finding a girl like this is that you've usually got to be looking for the same thing.

 

Meaning, if you're looking for the drop dead gorgeous, 9/10 who doesn't put a lot of stock in looks... well, good freaking luck.

 

The women who don't take looks into account too seriously are the ones who have learned through their own experience how little looks matter.

 

So if you want a girl who isn't going to judge you superficially... you're going to need to be willing to do the same for her. There are so so so many women out there that are just invisible to guys because they're "average" in terms of looks just waiting for a guy who has the same value system as them. Just keep your eyes open, and you'd be surprised where you can find em!

[kaleidoscope]

I totally agree with you on that verhrzn that there are a LOT of "invisible" people out there.

 

Guys AND girls.

 

Its sad on the one hand. On the other hand its an opportunity to get to know someone properly.

 

What if you meet that perfect 10/10 guy or girl and then 5 years from then they are fat or got into an accident and were scarred or whatever you know?

 

Would you still love them as much? Or was your interest mainly their physical attributes.

 

I stuck with my ex after a lot of ups and downs.

 

When you really love someone those things don't matter AS much anymore.

[kaleidoscope]

You know what's really HOT?

 

A guy or girl who tries their best to take care of themselves. Not in an obsessive way, not in a too proud way.

 

Just someone putting their best effort and you can tell they are.

 

THAT is hot.

[kaleidoscope]

And your know what else is really HOT?

 

A guy or girl who is putting an effort at make the other person happy.

 

Not over complimenting them, not playing some game and NOT trying to attract her/him to make YOURSELF happy.

 

But just authentically learning about the other person and finding out what's important in their life. Maybe its simply asking how their sick grandma is doing. Even asking if she had a nice week. Or keeping her up to date on her favorite band.

 

Maybe you'll get that kind of warmth in return.

[OneFootOut]

If he's not physically attracted to big women, then he's not attracted to big women. There's really no choice here. It's no different than telling me I should like blond women with big breasts, there's just nothing there for me.

 

Attraction really isn't a choice.

 

 

My point wasn't who he is attracted to, it was how he basically dismissed and dehumanized obese people with his comments. There is such a thing as tact, and even indifference is more respectful of another human being than saying such derogatory things.

 

This attitude burns me up because I have experienced both sides of the coin. I have been the pretty little fit one (110) as well as the unhealthy obese one (397). I am happily in the middle now, but throughout all of it, I was always the same person. I had and have the same heart and mind and soul and desires as any human being.

 

Being obese is not a choice as some of you seem to think. I certainly didn't choose it. It is not as simple to change as going for a jog or eating lettuce and working out hours a day. It can often be a symptom or side effect of other health issues. Millions of people have “invisible” health problems, such as cancer, arthritis, or MS. Obesity is just one that is visible.

 

I’ll leave you to discuss your post in peace, that just really hit a nerve. Hard.

[kaleidoscope]

OneFootOut, take comfort in knowing that lots of people have empathy for what you are saying.

 

Myself for instance. I happen to be very fit but never put down others. And I know that ANYTHING can happen in life. Car accidents, disease, etc, etc.

 

Trust me, I've seen both men and women act in a derogatory way because of looks.

 

Don't let it bring your day down.

 

I basically only hang around people with lots of empathy. Life is too cold and cruel otherwise.

[somedude81]

And your know what else is really HOT?

 

A guy or girl who is putting an effort at make the other person happy.

 

Not over complimenting them, not playing some game and NOT trying to attract her/him to make YOURSELF happy.

 

But just authentically learning about the other person and finding out what's important in their life. Maybe its simply asking how their sick grandma is doing. Even asking if she had a nice week. Or keeping her up to date on her favorite band.

 

Maybe you'll get that kind of warmth in return.

Warmth in return? Sure.

 

But it's not enough to make a woman want to sleep with a guy, if she's not already.

 

I know this from many years of experiences with different girls.

My point wasn't who he is attracted to, it was how he basically dismissed and dehumanized obese people with his comments. There is such a thing as tact, and even indifference is more respectful of another human being than saying such derogatory things.

Sorry, that's just how men are.

 

Few men are attracted to unhealthy obese women.

 

This attitude burns me up because I have experienced both sides of the coin. I have been the pretty little fit one (110) as well as the unhealthy obese one (397). I am happily in the middle now, but throughout all of it, I was always the same person. I had and have the same heart and mind and soul and desires as any human being.

 

Being obese is not a choice as some of you seem to think. I certainly didn't choose it. It is not as simple to change as going for a jog or eating lettuce and working out hours a day. It can often be a symptom or side effect of other health issues. Millions of people have “invisible” health problems, such as cancer, arthritis, or MS. Obesity is just one that is visible. I’ll leave you to discuss your post in peace, that just really hit a nerve. Hard.

If being obese wasn't a choice then how come every woman isn't 200lbs +?

 

You'd still be 397 if you didn't have a choice.

 

Frankly, I find it disgusting that a short man is about as attractive to a woman as an obese woman is to a man.

 

It sucks that there is absolutely nothing I can do, outside of painful and expensive surgery to get taller.

[Negative Nancy]

the only women that don't have very high standards are the bottom of the barrel type girls. In other words, the only girls who aren't that picky are the ones that men have ignored. An example of that were the couple of obese girls who pursued me.

 

Sadly, nobody else thinks I'm good enough for them

 

and why are the obese women not good enough for YOU? sounds hypocritical to me. in other words, you can have your standards by not finding fatties attractive, but god forbid women have their own standards or what?

[Negative Nancy]

Well. Sorry to point out the incongruity of your post, but you describe yourself as a short, physically unattractive man. Yet, you show disdain for obese, physically unattractive women. Ponder that for a second...

 

Exactly my point.