Meeting friends of friends tonight; I don't want to blow it

[Vertex]

Standard bg stuff: 23 year old who recently moved to NYC to work finance.

 

I have some friends here I've been hanging out with, and they've been a blast. We're going dinner then clubbing in a few hours, but I am also going to be meeting some of THEIR friends from college (we're all graduated). This entire group is largely asian, if that matters any (I'm white).

 

Even though it's primarily a friendly meet of sorts, there's a side intent: My friends are trying to help set me up with their single friends. One of these girls also happens to work in my building (I checked FB) in the same company (but a different floor).

 

I'm horrifically shy and am trying to become more outgoing/look more presentable in terms of attraction/etc. I'd really like to put my best foot forward tonight. I think I am just bad at flirting and, as a result, tend to get friendzoned because I probably come across as purely-friendship oriented. I went out and bought new shoes and a shirt for tonight, even, haha. I'm really trying to work on my confidence, but I am just not entirely sure if "being confident" in oneself is sufficient. I suspect there need to be some kind of outward indicators.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Vertex

[spookie]

My advice is to let loose and have fun!

[New Again]

I suspect there need to be some kind of outward indicators.

Eye contact.

Head up.

Shoulders back.

 

Good luck and have fun

 

And also, use "open" body language (such as don't cross your legs or arms, spread out, take up space.

[spookie]

Oh, here's another tip.

 

If you focus on making the OTHER person feel comfortable instead of how uncomfortable YOU feel, things stop being so awkward.

 

Just comvince yourself that everyone feels more awkward than you, and go from there.

[Vertex]

Eye contact.

Head up.

Shoulders back.

 

Good luck and have fun

 

And also, use "open" body language (such as don't cross your legs or arms, spread out, take up space.

 

Yes, yes, this is exactly the sort of thing I need to learn. XD Anything else?

[alphamale]

Any advice would be much appreciated.

alcohol is a "social lubricant" - use it wisely but not in excess

[Vertex]

Oh, here's another tip.

 

If you focus on making the OTHER person feel comfortable instead of how uncomfortable YOU feel, things stop being so awkward.

 

Just comvince yourself that everyone feels more awkward than you, and go from there.

 

Thing is, I don't know how to make others comfortable, haha. I think things are only awkward if I try to flirt, maybe? If I just act friendly, things go alright, but this isn't what I want to do.

[alphamale]

Thing is, I don't know how to make others comfortable, haha. I think things are only awkward if I try to flirt, maybe? If I just act friendly, things go alright, but this isn't what I want to do.

dude everyone at your age is awkward and anxious

[New Again]

Yes, yes, this is exactly the sort of thing I need to learn. XD Anything else?

 

Those are the biggest physical things you can do to project confidence that I can think of.

 

You don't have to be chatty or anything like that to come across as confident; I like spookie's advice to focus on the other person. That's the secret to seduction as well

 

In future, I highly recommend this book: How to Talk to Anyone: 92 Little Tricks for Big Success in Relationships.

[spookie]

Thing is, I don't know how to make others comfortable, haha. I think things are only awkward if I try to flirt, maybe? If I just act friendly, things go alright, but this isn't what I want to do.

 

IMO in most dynamics, there is the person that is making thigns comfortable, and the other person. If you are quiet/ shy, it's easy to assume the "other person" role in most situations, but the truth is, there are a lot more awkward people out there than quiet/shy people realize.

 

Situations become uncomfortbale when neither party is willing to step up and fill the dominant role.

 

You make others feel comfortable by smiling and being willing to fill the silences by appearing interested in the other person. It really is that simple, imo.

 

What do you consider flirting, and why do you think it's any different than just being friendly?

[nddb]

Asian women are very very wary of yellow fever (non-asian guys with asian fetish). A whiff of that, and you are history. This is more so for foreign-born but also applies to US-born asian women.

 

Chances are they have experienced that a million times in college so they know what to look for. Even if you are not an asiaphile but you come across wrong, you are done. These women are smart and they are on to it. And they talk to share information. If anything, they will be impressed that you are not acting like a kid in a candy shop.

 

Emphasize that you are a friend with asian GUYS and relate the good times with these guys. Just come across naturally. That establishes you as a regular guy not latching on to the asian group to satisfy your asian women fetish. Be cool.

 

Use the first meeting to get the lay of the land, who's attached, who's not. Subtlety is key. Full court press in front of her friends will be frowned on, and you risk putting all your chips on the table for the attached but hot chick. The others will reject you out of pride so you blew your chances. Again, subtlety is appreciated as sophistication. Loud and aggressive tend to be seen as vulgar.

 

The real courting is done in one-on-one in private via phone/email/IM. Not in front of the group, unless she's really americanized (like Southern California born asians).

 

I've dated half a dozen of asian women, so I'm no expert but I know enough to know that there are influences from family/culture/peer that you have to pay attention to. And I've been married to one for nearly 20 years and have seen how her sisters/friends/relatives operate.

[Vertex]

IMO in most dynamics, there is the person that is making thigns comfortable, and the other person. If you are quiet/ shy, it's easy to assume the "other person" role in most situations, but the truth is, there are a lot more awkward people out there than quiet/shy people realize.

 

Situations become uncomfortbale when neither party is willing to step up and fill the dominant role.

 

You make others feel comfortable by smiling and being willing to fill the silences by appearing interested in the other person. It really is that simple, imo.

 

What do you consider flirting, and why do you think it's any different than just being friendly?

 

I don't even know -- I always figured smiling a lot was flirty. I'm not very good at "touching" or whatever to indicate interest, so I generally keep to myself. I try to ask questions but in the heat of the moment, sometimes I run out of questions (I always get this feeling that it's all so "interviewy" and then I start getting nervous). I can't tell how much of my nerves are perceptible to others.

 

Sometimes I'll tell people that I consider myself introverted/awkward and they act surprised. I can't tell if they're being nice or if I am being too hard on myself.

 

But if I am interested in a girl I honestly don't think I act too much different than if I am just aiming to be friends! I don't know how to flirt -- I just kinda hope that there's an interest in getting to know more/reaching out later to hang out more often/talk more often/etc.

[Vertex]

Asian women are very very wary of yellow fever (non-asian guys with asian fetish). A whiff of that, and you are history. This is more so for foreign-born but also applies to US-born asian women.

 

Chances are they have experienced that a million times in college so they know what to look for. Even if you are not an asiaphile but you come across wrong, you are done. These women are smart and they are on to it. And they talk to share information. If anything, they will be impressed that you are not acting like a kid in a candy shop.

 

Emphasize that you are a friend with asian GUYS and relate the good times with these guys. Just come across naturally. That establishes you as a regular guy not latching on to the asian group to satisfy your asian women fetish. Be cool.

 

Use the first meeting to get the lay of the land, who's attached, who's not. Subtlety is key. Full court press in front of her friends will be frowned on, and you risk putting all your chips on the table for the attached but hot chick. The others will reject you out of pride so you blew your chances. Again, subtlety is appreciated as sophistication. Loud and aggressive tend to be seen as vulgar.

 

The real courting is done in one-on-one in private via phone/email/IM. Not in front of the group, unless she's really americanized (like Southern California born asians).

 

I've dated half a dozen of asian women, so I'm no expert but I know enough to know that there are influences from family/culture/peer that you have to pay attention to. And I've been married to one for nearly 20 years and have seen how her sisters/friends/relatives operate.

 

I actually had this debate the other day with my friends (who are themselves asian), and they actually told me that they're more or less accepting of yellow fever and don't get creeped out by it as long as it isn't objectifying. But I made it clear that I think there IS a difference between a fetish and a strong preference. Fetish implies that one girl is just as good as another -- something independent of personality for personal pleasure. I do not fall into this category. I just think asian women have very nice physical features (and, just in my experience, they tend to share similar senses of humor to me and core goals/values/mindsets), and I also find the languages beautiful (I can speak/read/write a bunch of em).

 

That being said, that's not something that'd be immediately obvious to a new girl, so I try to keep any "hint" of a "fetish" secret.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Vertex

[nddb]

Thing is, I don't know how to make others comfortable, haha. I think things are only awkward if I try to flirt, maybe? If I just act friendly, things go alright, but this isn't what I want to do.

 

That's exactly what you want to do with a mostly asian group. The dating concept of friends first and gradually evolve into relationship is very accepted. Unlike our culture's concept of you either fit as a friend (friendzoned) or attracted/lusted as a romantic prospect from the get-go.

 

Not to say which approach is better, but an asian girl is more likely to prefer to see all the guys as friends first, and keep her options open to let the guy court his way into a relationship instead of assign a guy to "friends" or "romantic" from the beginning. In a way, they are more open-minded to that transition than we are used to. It's a conservative and cautious approach and maddening if you want to move fast, but they are protecting themselves, which is hardly to blame and kinda smart if you think about it.

 

Speaking in general terms. As in all groups, exceptions and outliers abound. Depends on how much her family/culture/peers influence her as well. Just have to look for clues.

[Vertex]

That's exactly what you want to do with a mostly asian group. The dating concept of friends first and gradually evolve into relationship is very accepted. Unlike our culture's concept of you either fit as a friend (friendzoned) or attracted/lusted as a romantic prospect from the get-go.

 

Not to say which approach is better, but an asian girl is more likely to prefer to see all the guys as friends first, and keep her options open to let the guy court his way into a relationship instead of assign a guy to "friends" or "romantic" from the beginning. In a way, they are more open-minded to that transition than we are used to. It's a conservative and cautious approach and maddening if you want to move fast, but they are protecting themselves, which is hardly to blame and kinda smart if you think about it.

 

Speaking in general terms. As in all groups, exceptions and outliers abound. Depends on how much her family/culture/peers influence her as well. Just have to look for clues.

 

I generally agree with this type of "courting" system, but I fear that some people operate differently. I am completely fine with "friends first then maybe more later," but I think to get to that "maybe more" stage later, you need a strong foundation/strong first meeting, perhaps. Something to give incentive to keep contact going on a more regular basis. I typically act friendly, but I can never quite push things further than that.

[alphamale]

I am completely fine with "friends first then maybe more later," ...

its better to start out with romantic intentions first

[nddb]

I actually had this debate the other day with my friends (who are themselves asian), and they actually told me that they're more or less accepting of yellow fever and don't get creeped out by it as long as it isn't objectifying. But I made it clear that I think there IS a difference between a fetish and a strong preference. Fetish implies that one girl is just as good as another -- something independent of personality for personal pleasure. I do not fall into this category. I just think asian women have very nice physical features (and, just in my experience, they tend to share similar senses of humor to me and core goals/values/mindsets), and I also find the languages beautiful (I can speak/read/write a bunch of em).

 

That being said, that's not something that'd be immediately obvious to a new girl, so I try to keep any "hint" of a "fetish" secret.

 

All women, irrespective of culture, whether asian or not, hate it when they think that they are fungible. Meaning that she wants to feel that you like her and her only as a person. She doesn't want to feel that you like her because you like a certain racial/cultural characteristics because that implies in her mind that another girl of the same racial/cultural characteristics would do just as well.

 

Asian women are extra wary because of the mass media's portrayal of them as exotic. They really want to be treated as a person, not a member of the group, interchangeable with another asian girl.

 

I'm married to one with a lot of sisters and friends. That doesn't make me an expert but they get together all the time and talk. Her sisters would kick any non-asian guy to the curb if they feel the attraction is based on some asian fetish issue. It IS their hot button issue, and it makes sense if you think about it.

Edited February 27, 2010 by nddb

[Vertex]

All women, irrespective of culture, whether asian or not, hate it when they think that they are fungible. Meaning that she wants to feel that you like her and her only as a person. She doesn't want to feel that you like her because you like a certain racial/cultural characteristics because that implies in her mind that another girl of the same racial/cultural characteristics would do just as well.

 

Asian women are extra wary because of the mass media's portrayal of them as exotic. They really want to be treated as a person, not a member of the group, interchangeable with another asian girl.

 

I'm married to one with a lot of sisters and friends. That doesn't make me an expert but they get together all the time and talk. Her sisters would kick any non-asian guy to the curb if they feel the attraction is based on some asian fetish issue. It IS their hot button issue, and it makes sense if you think about it.

 

I would say that I am definitely interested in personality and intelligence moreso than anything else (if I meet an asian girl and she isn't intelligent/kind/creative/witty/etc, I lose interest). What do you think would turn a girl off though (what type of traits/characteristics/actions/opinions/interests would fall more in line with a "yellow fever/fetish" interpretation of a man versus the contrary?).

[nddb]

I would say that I am definitely interested in personality and intelligence moreso than anything else (if I meet an asian girl and she isn't intelligent/kind/creative/witty/etc, I lose interest).

 

Then you'll do fine. They'll sense that.

 

What do you think would turn a girl off though (what type of traits/characteristics/actions/opinions/interests would fall more in line with a "yellow fever/fetish" interpretation of a man versus the contrary?).

 

Honestly, I'm rusty. My posts are more relaying what I know turns some asian women off once they form the conclusion but as to the specific behaviors that cause these women to come to the conclusion, I'm kinda hazy because I've been absent from the field for the long time.

 

My observations are from the post-action pow-wows that my wife participates in with her sisters/friends, if you will.

 

Sorry I can't be of help in the "what should I do on the spot" area.

[alphamale]

just treat them like regular chicks

[Vertex]

Just got back. I honestly feel like crying. I'm just doomed to fail, it seems. No matter how hard I try, or how many times I "put myself out there" and go to dances/clubs, I just cannot function. It frustrates me to no end because I have been so successful in reaching any other goal I've ever set for myself in life, and yet something like this I just can't accomplish properly, and I can't stand it.

 

I'm just not able to meet random people like that. And even when I meet people through mutual friends, I just come across as friendly. I don't know how to flirt or show interest.

 

I hate feeling so defective. I know I'm a great boyfriend and person. I've got a lot to offer and I'm confident in this -- it's just so damn hard for me to get my foot in the door. This shyness is an absolute curse and it frustrates me to tears that I can't seem to get through it.

[sweetjasmine]

Just got back. I honestly feel like crying. I'm just doomed to fail, it seems. No matter how hard I try, or how many times I "put myself out there" and go to dances/clubs, I just cannot function. It frustrates me to no end because I have been so successful in reaching any other goal I've ever set for myself in life, and yet something like this I just can't accomplish properly, and I can't stand it.

 

I'm just not able to meet random people like that. And even when I meet people through mutual friends, I just come across as friendly. I don't know how to flirt or show interest.

 

I hate feeling so defective. I know I'm a great boyfriend and person. I've got a lot to offer and I'm confident in this -- it's just so damn hard for me to get my foot in the door. This shyness is an absolute curse and it frustrates me to tears that I can't seem to get through it.

 

 

Hey, what happened?

 

I used to be probably just as shy as you, but over time, I've gotten a little more open. It's just something you have to do over and over and over again. It's really frustrating at times and uncomfortable, but you just have to push yourself a little bit each time.

 

You sound like a really great guy. Don't let this get you down, okay? Meeting a bunch of people you don't know with the added pressure of "hey, they're single! *wink wink*" can be really nerve-wracking. Don't beat yourself up over it.

[EnglishMuffin]

Cheer up Vertex. And you don't have to push yourself too hard either.

 

Personally I'm not good at big groups, despite of my outspokenness in academic settings I turn into a shy bunny. Coming from someone who is not afraid of asking a boy out...yeah...everyone has weaknesses I suppose! If you were like me, it'd be easier to talk to a girl in a smaller group or a person-to-person setting.

 

By the way, I think your being friendly to random people was good enough to start with. It really is exhausting to do so, honestly. Maybe for the time being it'd be better to forget about finding a girl and just have fun with the group? Like I said, it wears your nerves out if your objective is to impress women. Small talks here and there and continue with IM/FB maybe?

 

Good luck! and here is a hug for ya

[troggleputty]

Just got back. I honestly feel like crying.

 

Crying? Why? Do you have a family member who was caught in the Chilean earthquake or something like that?

 

Dude a little perspective please. You have FRIENDS who think enough of you to have invited you out with them for a social night out, with "intent" to "fix you up." They think very highly of you. It's not like you were sitting around in your apartment alone with no where to go on a Saturday night.

 

Listen to me..."shyness" can be very self-centered, i.e., as in being way too focused on yourself.

 

I mean what actually happened last night that was so awful? Did you get into a fist fight? Did you get arrested? Did you get drunk and wreck your car? Did you grab some girl's t*its and get smacked in the face? Did you get drunk, meet some skank, go back to her place, have disgusting meaningless unprotected sex, inadvertently get her pregnant, and now you'll have to pay child support for 18 years and have periodic very unpleasant personal interaction with the mother of your unwanted child, a women who also just happens to be exactly the sort of crazy psycho b*itch who would have unprotected drunken sex with a random pick up on a first date?

 

Now any one of the things I've just described, if they'd occurred, could fairly be considered worthy of "crying" over. Did any of these things happen to you last night, per chance?

 

 

 

I'm just doomed to fail, it seems.

 

Unlikely. I suppose it depends upon how one defines "failure." To me "failure" would be one of the things that I've described above as worth "crying" over.

 

 

 

 

 

No matter how hard I try, or how many times I "put myself out there" and go to dances/clubs, I just cannot function.

 

I just don't think you're objectively evaluating your own behavior. I'm pretty sure that you went out to a night spot or club with your friends and socialized. You're shy so you were not the life of the party nor perhaps did you really talk much to anyone. How is that "non functional"? Your personality is such that you're the quiet type in those situations. But, it's your personality that caused your friends to want to fix you up in the first place. If they didn't think you were worthy of being fixed up they would not have bothered. People with truly unpleasant personalities do not get invited out by their friends. As a matter of fact they don't have friends.

 

 

 

It frustrates me to no end because I have been so successful in reaching any other goal I've ever set for myself in life, and yet something like this I just can't accomplish properly, and I can't stand it.

 

....but what precisely is the "goal" that you think you're trying to accomplish? Is it to simply be more talkative in social settings? Is it to pick up bar skanks and have drunken sex with them? Is it to "get a girlfriend"? What's the goal? Not someone else's goal...what is your goal?

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just not able to meet random people like that. And even when I meet people through mutual friends, I just come across as friendly. I don't know how to flirt or show interest.

 

Honestly I don't get what the problem is. Isn't the ability to "come across as friendly" what you're trying to do?

 

Or are you implying that you think you should be more overtly "hitting on girls"? Randomly? Again to what end? What's the goal?

 

Did you meet someone in particular last night that you took a fancy to, but feel you didn't talk with/flirt with enough to suit you? Well if it was someone who is a friend of a friend, why not just tell your friend that you liked that person and would like to see if you and she could get together again?

 

I mean seriously you make it sound as if you did something horrible like pull your pants down in the middle of the dance floor and take a dump.

 

 

 

I hate feeling so defective. I know I'm a great boyfriend and person. I've got a lot to offer and I'm confident in this -- it's just so damn hard for me to get my foot in the door. This shyness is an absolute curse and it frustrates me to tears that I can't seem to get through it.

 

 

I'm betting that you probably met at least one woman last night who was really interested in you but were so preoccupied with yourself that you didn't even notice she was interested in you.

 

I'm also betting that you simply don't go out enough. There's nothing wrong with you. But something tells me one of the reasons you put so much pressure on yourself is that you don't make more opportunities to interact with available women.

 

You are putting WAY TOO MUCH pressure on yourself which is self-defeating behavior. It actually doesn't sound like you did anything "wrong."

 

In the future, when you go out (and go out as much as possible!), don't create any unrealistic expectations of what you think is "supposed" to happen or what you are "supposed" to do. Just go out with the intent of being sociable and having fun, not with the intent of "finding a girlfriend."

 

Remember: going out with friends to socialize is supposed to be fun, not a "test" of your ability to....do what exactly? I still haven't figured it out. Get laid? Find a girlfriend? Find the mother of your future children?

 

It sounds like you actually had a good time last night and don't even know it.

[Vertex]

troggleputty: I felt like crying because my shyness has been an ongoing struggle for years and years (this isn't just a one-time thing), and it just frustrates me that I can't seem to overcome it, as I think my quality of life would drastically change. I'm so tired of trying to be outgoing and charismatic only to have some ridiculous psychological block constantly holding me back. I have to know someone for a bit until I can loosen up and be more personable.

 

For instance, my friend I sat across from last night at dinner was great conversation. I've known her for a bit longer and we were talking constantly/making each other laugh/etc, and that was great -- but she has a boyfriend. The problem is that I can only reach that state of interaction once I get to know someone better. I can't act that way around new people and I worry that it's severely hindering my social life.

 

Nothing happened last night, but that's the problem. It's always just friendly. I can't flirt at all. It's hard for me to hear my friends always describe things they want in other men that happen to coincide with me ("Had he said he works law/medicine/finance, I woulda been all over him" / "Believe me, tall guys are really sexy, and you're good-looking, yourself" / "I wish more people were after something long-term... I'm just not a flingy person")... it just proves to me that I must be nosediving.

 

 

 

"....but what precisely is the "goal" that you think you're trying to accomplish? Is it to simply be more talkative in social settings? Is it to pick up bar skanks and have drunken sex with them? Is it to "get a girlfriend"? What's the goal? Not someone else's goal...what is your goal?"

 

My goal is a girlfriend, yes.

 

 

 

"Well if it was someone who is a friend of a friend, why not just tell your friend that you liked that person and would like to see if you and she could get together again?"

 

I probably could, but again, it's really difficult for me. I'm basically deadweight with new people until they decide to take a chance on me and see me again in the future -- then it's easier to relax over time, and I typically make and keep very good friends when this happens. But most of the time, I come across as disconnected and quiet, and so I don't really see too many people a second time.

 

 

 

"I'm betting that you probably met at least one woman last night who was really interested in you but were so preoccupied with yourself that you didn't even notice she was interested in you."

 

I'd like to believe this is true, but I honestly doubt it. I'm a fairly perceptive person and good at understanding/reading social signals (I'm just bad at actually USING them) -- I'm fairly sure nobody was interested, especially when I was relatively quiet.

 

 

 

"It sounds like you actually had a good time last night and don't even know it. "

 

It's always fun to socialize and be with friends, yes. But at the same time, I'm tired of being a total dud when I first meet someone. I want to be open, warm, personable, funny, charming -- all things I can do more easily down the road with someone -- only I want to be able to do this around new people.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Vertex