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Guys who say they want an "independent woman"??


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The discussion in spookie's "Loner" thread got me wondering about guys who say they want an independent woman, particularly this quote from Johan:

 

I would be cool with it. With one reservation: she needs also to be independent. Sometimes a girl with no friends is just waiting for a guy to come along and provide a life for her.

 

What exactly do you guys mean by "independent" anyway? What's your definition of it? If it means what I think it means (emotional independence... not looking to a guy to give her a life or make her "complete"), this seems to be in direct contradiction to what guys actually settle down with - a woman who IS dependent on them. Men like to feel NEEDED and USEFUL to someone.

 

How do you explain the discrepancy?

 

When you say "independent" does that only apply to the BEGINNING of your relationship with her, where you're looking for signs of a healthy individual, that she doesn't need you to have a full life, and you have to work hard to convince her that she'd be better off with you? Does this become less important over time - do your expectations change?

 

Inquiring minds want to know!!:D

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As a woman, I would say one of the main reasons people enter into a relationship is because they would like to depend on the affection, support and companionship of someone to whom they can offer the same favours.

we all want to be understood, appreciated and loved. It's a cohesive existence, and something we all have a yearning fo, to one degree of another.

However, this co-dependency does not mean that we cease to function as separate entities. We're joined at the heart, not at the hip.

We need to be able to function independently, without fear of thretening the other person's companionable instincts.

We should be able to form a circle of friends with whom we can interact either alone, or with our partner.

 

"he" should have his circle of friends, who know her and respect her enough to not tempt him to overstep his boundaries, and the same goes for her.

The tweo people should be as comfortable without one another, as with.

Kahil Gibran said it very well:

 

 

.....Love one another, but make not a bond of love:

Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.

Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.

Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf

Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,

Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.

 

Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.

For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.

And stand together yet not too near together:

For the pillars of the temple stand apart,

And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow.

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independent enough so that when I'm busy hanging out with my mates (or doing my own stuff), she doesn't nag me about not seeing her 24/7

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GEISHA: That's beautiful, but sheesh that sounds like a lot of work!! and an extremely delicate balancing act, to maintain that balance over the long-term. I know life often doesn't work like that - it's tough, gritty, and downright ugly sometimes. That kind of love seems entirely too fragile to withstand all that.

 

ZENITH: I sense volumes of things unsaid in your post. Independent enough to not give you a guilt trip about hanging out with your bro's... but not so independent that ______________ -- can you fill in the blank for me here?

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What exactly do you guys mean by "independent" anyway? What's your definition of it? If it means what I think it means (emotional independence... not looking to a guy to give her a life or make her "complete"), this seems to be in direct contradiction to what guys actually settle down with - a woman who IS dependent on them. Men like to feel NEEDED and USEFUL to someone.

 

I think when guys say independent they mean not overly clingy or completely reliant on a man. When I think of an independent woman I think of feminist type career women who say they don't need a man. They are not for me. I want someone who is somewhat dependent on me (as I am somewhat dependent on them).

 

IMO, both partners need some dependency, otherwise, what's the point of being in a relationship?

 

How do you explain the discrepancy?

 

It's semantics. People have different definitions and thoughts of what independent means.

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It's semantics. People have different definitions and thoughts of what independent means.

 

And hence, my thread.:D What exactly ARE those different definitions?

 

I think when guys say independent they mean not overly clingy or completely reliant on a man. When I think of an independent woman I think of feminist type career women who say they don't need a man. They are not for me. I want someone who is somewhat dependent on me (as I am somewhat dependent on them).

 

IMO, both partners need some dependency, otherwise, what's the point of being in a relationship?

 

But can you really have both in the same woman? You want your woman to make you feel like she needs you, but not actually BE needy and demanding of you?

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GEISHA: That's beautiful, but sheesh that sounds like a lot of work!! and an extremely delicate balancing act, to maintain that balance over the long-term.

 

Well of course it's hard work!

Relationships always, always are!

It's a distinction between Ego and mutual benefit!

Arguments should never be about Lose-win, or lose-lose...

Arguments should be win-win discussions!

 

And it has to be an on-going, constant process!

You're never the same person from one day to the next - why would anyone be under the impression their relationship should be??

 

The big problem is, most people walk into a relationship believing it's all wonderful, because they've finally found the someone who will move mountains and go to the ends of the earth and back for them... and well they might have - but this wonderful person expect the same too!

Unless you are always willing to put the other person first - and they you - it's doomed to failure.

It takes a lot of work - commitment, honour, dignity, promise - to keep a relationship healthy!

 

I spent years training people how to do it!

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And hence, my thread.:D What exactly ARE those different definitions?

 

Well, I gave you mine. Now I'll let the other guys weigh in with their own. ;)

 

But can you really have both in the same woman? You want your woman to make you feel like she needs you, but not actually BE needy and demanding of you?

 

Ideally speaking, I think so. There are degrees, but I think there is a balance and a middle road. Two people who need each other but aren't so needy that they are overbearing.

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"Independent" to me means she has the means and intellect to manage her own life.

 

As the corollary, I've always been "independent" and have done (and do) all the "womanly" things, short of birthing babies. Shop, cook, sew, make beds, do laundry, clean up poop, wash dishes, etc. I don't "need" a woman for that. If I didn't do those things, I'd hire someone. I don't "depend" on my wife to do them for me. If something needs to be done, I jump right in and do it, whatever it is. If I don't know how, I learn. If a woman is like that, IMO, she's "independent". My mother was that way. Mowed her own lawn and changed her own oil (as examples of "manly" things) until she stroked out at 80. She also did her own taxes (I taught her how). The most telling sign of her impending dementia was the difficulty she began to have doing the math and understanding the instructions. It would take her days but she still stubbornly moved forward. That's independent, at least my definition of it.

 

Oh, forgot the emotional part..."independent" is not "needing" a man for validation and purpose, but choosing to share her validated and purposed life with him. Really, it's as simple as that. I don't want to be needed; I need to be wanted. :)

 

YMMV

 

:)

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Different guys want different things.

 

Some guys want a woman who is completely financially dependent. Others are turned on by doctors and lawyers who don't only support themselves, but are also rich.

 

Most fall somewhere in between.

 

When a guy falls in love with a woman, he will probably not care how independent she is as long as she's not clingy, or at the other end of the spectrum, a feminist.

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"Independent" to me means she has the means and intellect to manage her own life...

 

Shop, cook, sew, make beds, do laundry, clean up poop, wash dishes, etc. I don't "need" a woman for that...

 

I don't want to be needed; I need to be wanted.

 

So I'm taking it to mean that you admire an independent spirit in a woman, as long as she appreciates the things you do? I can hang with that.:bunny::bunny: I've always had this sneaking suspicion, in spite of all my "man" troubles, that a woman's kindness goes a long way with men. My current dilemma is that I really don't depend on men for anything, and have no desire to do so... but I enjoy their company, and I have recently started to make a point to show appreciation for the nice things they do for me. And they're coming out of the woodwork now!!, but I'm keeping all of them at arms-length because I'm afraid they will start expecting me to become dependent on them, and it will go into the death-spiral tailspin it always inevitably does. I guess I have not yet figured out the right healthy balance.

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My definition of an "independent" woman is simple: a girl who wants me, not needs me. IMO, an independent woman wants a guy to be with her and to explore life with her. A dependent woman is usually looking to be 'saved' from something (bad family, lack of stimulus, financial situation, whatever). Most guys don't have a problem being a white knight; we just don't like it as a full-time job.

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Our MC used phrases like "acts of service" and "languages of love" and we covered a whole host of interactions regarding what we termed our version of "healthy interdependence".

 

The hardest concept for me to embrace cognitively was that of differentiating the feelings of expectation and desire and their impetuses. Much in the relational dynamic stems from these impetuses, at least for myself, and this was the area where my wife and I had the most communication issues.

 

It was at the point where I felt "taken advantage of" for my willingness and abilities that I began to lose my love. My wife didn't adequately express the "want" for me in language that I could understand and appreciate, as a balance to the "need".

 

Way too deep for this thread, so I'll stop, but I can only say that I have been around very independent women who are also very loving and appreciative of a man and they manage that dynamic seemlessly. It's a gift, IMO :)

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When a guy falls in love with a woman, he will probably not care how independent she is as long as she's not clingy, or at the other end of the spectrum, a feminist.

 

Most guys don't have a problem being a white knight; we just don't like it as a full-time job.

 

I have been around very independent women who are also very loving and appreciative of a man and they manage that dynamic seemlessly. It's a gift, IMO :)

 

All excellent, excellent posts. [OpenBook clapping] Well said! I will be chewing on these for awhile. Like a teething puppy.:D

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The hardest concept for me to embrace cognitively was that of differentiating the feelings of expectation and desire and their impetuses. Much in the relational dynamic stems from these impetuses, at least for myself, and this was the area where my wife and I had the most communication issues.

 

It was at the point where I felt "taken advantage of" for my willingness and abilities that I began to lose my love. My wife didn't adequately express the "want" for me in language that I could understand and appreciate, as a balance to the "need".

 

Way too deep for this thread, so I'll stop, but I can only say that I have been around very independent women who are also very loving and appreciative of a man and they manage that dynamic seemlessly. It's a gift, IMO :)

 

would you mind explaining a little bit anyway please?

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Ask the precise question in another thread. On LS, off-topic discussions are discouraged.

 

My work on the psychology of interdependence really has little to do with the description of an independent woman or why a guy would want one.

 

On-topic, my wife possesses many independent qualities, and such were/are attractive, but she went a bit too far with the "want" part without appropriate love and appreciation. She allowed my generosity to warp her independence, making her less attractive in the process, or she may in fact might never have been truly independent, and the signs of it were merely a facade. Again, off-topic...

 

I liked JohnnyBlaze's definition. Very succinct :)

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On-topic, my wife possesses many independent qualities, and such were/are attractive, but she went a bit too far with the "want" part without appropriate love and appreciation. She allowed my generosity to warp her independence, making her less attractive in the process, or she may in fact might never have been truly independent, and the signs of it were merely a facade. Again, off-topic...

 

I don't think it's off-topic at all, carhill. It looks like the very same trait - independence - that attracted you to her in the first place, ended up biting you in the @ss in your M. What do you mean by "warp her independence"? Did she start taking you for granted?

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The discussion in spookie's "Loner" thread got me wondering about guys who say they want an independent woman, particularly this quote from Johan:

 

 

 

What exactly do you guys mean by "independent" anyway? What's your definition of it? If it means what I think it means (emotional independence... not looking to a guy to give her a life or make her "complete"), this seems to be in direct contradiction to what guys actually settle down with - a woman who IS dependent on them. Men like to feel NEEDED and USEFUL to someone.

 

How do you explain the discrepancy?

 

When you say "independent" does that only apply to the BEGINNING of your relationship with her, where you're looking for signs of a healthy individual, that she doesn't need you to have a full life, and you have to work hard to convince her that she'd be better off with you? Does this become less important over time - do your expectations change?

 

Inquiring minds want to know!!:D

 

I can't speak for everyone, but part of the beauty of an independent woman is that your never left to guess whether or not she's using you for anything. I mean, if she's with you, she's with you because she wants to be with you and not out of necessity. She generally speaking requires less maintanence.

 

She's not the kind of woman who has to jump in the car with you just to ride to the corner store when you go out to get a loaf of bread before supper time. Her independence allows for your independence. You both can grow together steadily as individual people with independent and separate lives.

 

As far as over time goes...I wouldn't know...but I'll say this much, when they decide to move on without you, they turn the page and never look back, not so much as peep, the last woman, eighteen months and ZERO contact...not even a morbidly curious hang-up type call...you know the one...where they ring your phone and you pick-up and say hello and they just want to "hear" your voice to know your "Okay" ...not a single one... when they go...their gone!

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Give me your definition of "taking for granted" and its relevance to independence :)

 

Well alrighty then!:D It's the very same dilemma I find myself in right now... and the reason why I started this thread. In my mind, there is a disconnect between what guys say they want - an independent woman - with what they actually desire, someone who needs them and the things they do. (OK, maybe not "need" as in "I can't function unless you do this for me" but more like "It really makes my life better when you do this for me, I really appreciate it!")

 

If a woman is truly independent, she will do everything for herself, and ergo there is no need to recognize anyone else's contributions because she's independent and self-sufficient! If a man said me, "I want you to be independent" - I take them at their literal word, and don't depend on them for ANYTHING. Whatever they do is moot. If they truly want me to be independent, I assume they don't WANT me to recognize them for anything! Yet in their minds, if they actually do something for me, and I'm nonchalant about it in my independent, self-sufficient way, they view it as me "taking them for granted." And therein lies the rub.

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Different guys want different things.

 

Some guys want a woman who is completely financially dependent. Others are turned on by doctors and lawyers who don't only support themselves, but are also rich.

 

Most fall somewhere in between.

 

When a guy falls in love with a woman, he will probably not care how independent she is as long as she's not clingy, or at the other end of the spectrum, a feminist.

er, a feminist means a person who wants equal rights for men and women. So most independent women are feminists.

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My definition:

Taking for granted = lack of recognition and or appreciative response for proactive efforts.

 

Relevance to independence = A person who is independent understands the value and relevance of other's contributions to their life (because they are proactive) and expresses that understanding in a meaningful way. IMO, just because I *can* do everything for myself (or similar for a woman) doesn't mean I don't appreciate other's willingness to contribute and actions they might take to show their love and/or concern.

 

For example, I've cared for my mother nearly alone (had a bit of hired help) and was perfectly capable to do so, but would have greatly appreciated proactive offers of help and/or empathy for my struggle. A few kind words would have been an important contribution and greatly appreciated, even though no action was performed. A number of online friends did show this kind of empathy, so I started a forum for them, which has grown and operates to this day :) Many of the members (mostly women) are very independent and care for their ill spouses largely alone.

 

Hope that helps explain my perspective in a relevant fashion :)

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Hope that helps explain my perspective in a relevant fashion :)

 

No, actually it doesn't. You explained how she wouldn't support you in your caring for your mother. (She totally dropped the ball on that, in my book, BTW!!) But it doesn't answer my original question, when I asked you to explain what you meant by your "generosity warping her independence."

 

Answers!! I want answers!!:D:D But of course you are under no obligation to oblige me.

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I can't speak for everyone, but part of the beauty of an independent woman is that your never left to guess whether or not she's using you for anything. I mean, if she's with you, she's with you because she wants to be with you and not out of necessity. She generally speaking requires less maintanence.

 

Ah, I suspected this was part of the deal! You guys don't want emotional bottomless pits that will drain you dry like a succubus. I don't blame you at all for this. But isn't there a flip side to that "low-maintenance" trait? You don't have to do a lot for her, but because she's so independent, she won't go out of her way to do a lot for you either?

 

As far as over time goes...I wouldn't know...but I'll say this much, when they decide to move on without you, they turn the page and never look back, not so much as peep, the last woman, eighteen months and ZERO contact...not even a morbidly curious hang-up type call...you know the one...where they ring your phone and you pick-up and say hello and they just want to "hear" your voice to know your "Okay" ...not a single one... when they go...their gone!

 

And again, isn't this (emotional independence) the very same trait which attracted you to her in the first place?

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er, a feminist means a person who wants equal rights for men and women. So most independent women are feminists.

 

Good point, dnm! Guys don't want a feminist, but they want someone independent. That totally confuses me. Unless their definition of a feminist includes a ball-buster... that I can understand. Ouch! A woman can be independent without lording herself as superior to men. I get that part.

 

The part I don't get is, when a man actually starts wanting something from me. All of the sudden, he doesn't want me to be independent anymore. I can't just switch on and off like that, at his whim.

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