Where do we stand?

[foote5252]

[sIZE=2]Alright, THIS IS INCREDIBLY LONG, SO PREPARE, but everything I typed is needed for the sense of the story. I will sum this up as quickly as possible……..

 

 

This girl McKenzie (I will call her Mac from now on) and I have known each other going on 6 years now. The first year we met we hit it off well, hung out got a long great. After about 5 or 6 months of knowing one another I was looking for a new place to live and Mac and her roommates were in search of a roommate. So naturally it was a perfect fit and so I moved in. the first few weeks the other roomies were all gone for various reasons, so we literally spent all day everyday together. To cut to the chase, we ended becoming a couple and stayed together for nearly a year. After about 6 months of living together, I had to move out due to financial problems and move back with the parents. No biggie, I was only 19 at the time. Anyway, Mac and I ended up splitting up amicably (more or less) 11 months into the relationship. It was more her breaking it off then me, but it wasn’t because of any horrible things. No cheating, no bad blood at all or anything. I more or less just took for granted the relationship and didn’t really put everything I had into it. Mac is someone I have always cared for dearly. A few months after we split, I tried to get us back together. Being young and dumb at the time, I came on a bit to strong and caught her completely off guard by saying I was in love with her and that I wanted to be back with her blah blah. She said she only wanted to be friends now. So we didn’t talk much for a couple years, but again no bad blood or ill feelings towards one another. We would talk every blue moon via instant messenger or the occasional e-mail.

 

 

Well about a year ago for whatever the reason we started talking a lot more online and sending e-mails frequently. I was dating someone at that point, but honestly my feelings for Mac never went away. They died down obviously, b/c after so many years you just move on, but I honestly never lost it for her. As we began to converse more and more I did my best to talk myself into believing that just being friends was great and that’s how it should stay yadda yadda. This past july we decided to meet up face to face for the first time in over 2 ½ years. And literally the second I saw her everything just came rushing back to me. Ive always found her to be absolutely stunning and amazingly gorgeous. Now mind you, I have been in 3 other pretty serious relationships besides her. One girl I even considered marrying, so this isn’t a first crush type deal at all. This is legit! She does something too me, that I honestly never have felt, not even with the marriage candidate I mentioned previously. Im normally quite cold and lack any emotion towards females. Im just indifferent really. But with her, its completely different! every time I see her, talk to her, talk about her, anything her I beam with joy and am genuinely happy. Anyway to get back on track, mac and I had a wonderful time together. We got a bite to eat, saw a stand up comedy act, got some drinks at a bar, hung out for like 7 hours and had a blast. I felt it all once again, like I said, but I subdued my feelings and hid them away and didn’t put much thought or effort towards again, b/c I didn’t problems with my girlfriend at the time.

 

 

We continue our frequent IM chats and e-mails and about a month or so later we hang out again, this time at our cities oktoberfest party. The two of us hang out with a group of her friends. We have another great evening talking, drinking and dancing a bit. Then as the evening began to wind down and her friends left just us two together, she started being real flirty with me. She was fairly buzzed not drunk, but buzzed. She started rubbing my back and my shoulders, trying to hold my hand, walk arm and arm with me, etc. part of me loved it and the other part of me felt incredibly guilty b/c of my g/f. I didn’t want to feel like I was betraying her. So I did my very best and did quite well of keeping her from holding my hand. I kept my hands in my pockets and when she would do the arm and arm thing I would kind of keep my arm loose, so it would be less couple like. Yah know?! And like I said, a part of me loved her doing this, it felt so damn good and so right, but I knew I had another great girl at home. So this went on for about an hour or so and we walked back to my car, so I could drive her to her car at a parking lot a few blocks down. We sat in my car and talked for a while and to wrap the evening up we gave each other a long hug. She pulled away and gave me the look like “I want to kiss you”. but I refrained. We end up talking a bit more and hug again to finally call it an evening, I pull back and she leans in and kisses me on the lips. I swear to god she kissed me, not the other way around. I didn’t even have my lips puckered, b/c I wasn’t expecting it. After a second I realized what happened and I wanted so badly to grab her and kiss her back, as this was something I had longed for for almost 3 years now. But again, knowing I had a g/f I didn’t.

 

 

well a few days later, our first contact she kind of acted weird and acted like it never happened, didn’t mention it again. We actually ended up not having any contact for about a month or so. After that I was confused as to what she wanted. Mac is a hard girl to read when it comes to stuff like this. Even back in the day when we lived together and grew into a couple, it wasn’t obvious how into me she was on the outside. Shes very private about that kind of stuff. It wasn’t until we were actually together her feelings came to fruition. The girlfriend I kept mentioning and I broke up a handful of months back and Mac is also single. (By the way my former g/f and I did not break up b/c of Mac.) It just ran its course. Anyway so now it’s the end of February and I d say the last 2 months or so Mac and I have hung out approximately 6 or 7 times. Movies, out to eat, snow tubing road trip, stand up comedy show, bars, etc. But here is the problem, I honestly for the life of me cannot figure out if she is into me as a boyfriend again or not. I know from reading this it may seem like a no brainer, but its honestly not easy to figure out at all. Now when we end the evening with a hug its like she goes out of her way to make sure we don’t get in that position again to kiss. But we do a lot of “date” type activities by ourselves. Its incredibly confusing.

 

 

So I have said all that, to say this…… without just coming out and saying “hey do you want to be together” how can I stealth like try to piece the puzzle together? What are some clues or hints to look out for? From reading this, what is your opinion on the situation? Do u think she could be interested or is it no shot in hell? Obviously I would prefer to date, but im not seeking out that being the answer. I just want whatever is the truth honestly.

 

 

So what say you loveshackers? Help out a brotha! Thanks for your time and effort to those of you who do read and reply to this. I know its brutally long. Thanks a ton! Peace

[/sIZE]

[foote5252]

Okay that was a long read.

But in my opinion, I don't think that she was intentionally trying to give off mixed signals. The last time you guys supposedly " kissed" occurred when she was tipsy you say? Well you do know that the effect of alcohol is that it lowers a persons inhibitions?

 

From what you've posted, after all these years, you've have not really moved on emotionally. You still have and hold feelings for her, but besides physical attraction, do you find that you're physically ready to date her? Her actions speaks volumes. She's being really tentative at this moment, not exactly sure of herself whether she wants to pursue something more stay on a frienship basis. I suppose the best and easiest thing would be to ask her, but you're adamant that the to the belief that she will reject you. The best approach? Spend more time with her first to truly see whether the feelings you have for her is genuine. She will reciprocate through her actions should she feel the same.

 

thanks for the comments and questions papercut. i truly do feel im ready to physically date her. absolutely! i honestly dont think i would have been back when i tried to get back with her after we split. but with that being almost 4 years ago, i feel now, more then ever prepared to date her. as i mentioned, i took for granted the relationship while we were in it. i mean i was 19 yah know?! but i defintley feel ready to give it a go around one last time.

 

its not the rejection thing that im apprehensive about. its more of the, what if she is staring to think this way and me approaching her while she is unprepared would throw her off track. or what if she strictly wants a friendship (which is fine honestly), it may scare her away from that as well.

Edited March 1, 2008 by foote5252

[xpaperxcutx]

thanks for the comments and questions papercut. i truly do feel im ready to physically date her. absolutely! i honestly dont think i would have been back when i tried to get back with her after we split. but with that being almost 4 years ago, i feel now, more then ever prepared to date her. as i mentioned, i took for granted the relationship while we were in it. i mean i was 19 yah know?! but i defintley feel ready to give it a go around one last time.

 

its not the rejection thing that im apprehensive about. its more of the, what if she is staring to think this way and me approaching her while she is unprepared would throw her off track. or what if she strictly wants a friendship (which is fine honestly), it may scare her away from that as well.

 

Okay, here's another question. How many times have you guys spend together? (I've reread the OP, and I think 6 or 7 times in two months seem moderate)

 

 

 

Also, do you guys constantly call each other during the day, or any sort of casual contact, through IMs or texts? Since it's been 4 years that you guys have been apart, have you touched base on anything over that time period? Has she been opening herself up to you about her personal life? Have you done the same?

 

Sorry for the long Qs, but if you reply Yes to all the questions above, I don't see why you can't take a gamble asking her to be your gf. But you could try to take it at a slow pace, by casually dating first instead of being outright about being OFFICIAL. See how she reacts to going out to a movie or dinner or any activities that you both can engage in for the evening. Don't be too specific about your feelings for her. Give her casual hints. If she's receptive to them, I'm pretty sure she's interested, and you can go ahead and ask her to be your gf.

 

Okay I think the best way to discern whether she feels the same is by her body language. Basically you've done all the things I've asked, but I think you need to pay just a little closer attention to her body movements. Does she give you touches that lingers more than you would expect from a casual friend? Does she go out of her way of being close to you? Say when you guys go for walks or go out to eat, does she walk extra close to you, or extend her hands just a few inches from yours across the table? Do you get the sense that she wants to be close to you?

 

I hope that helps.

Edited March 1, 2008 by xpaperxcutx

[foote5252]

do you guys constantly call each other during the day, or any sort of casual contact, through IMs or texts? Since it's been 4 years that you guys have been apart, have you touched base on anything over that time period? Has she been opening herself up to you about her personal life? Have you done the same?

 

We don’t (as u say) constantly contact each other. We text semi-frequently or talk online if we are on at the same time. But its not really in either of our personalities to constantly communicate. We both appreciate having space and alone time. We contact each other if we have something pertinent to say and occasionally just a little dumb one liner to say hey and what not. Also though it has been 3 + years (I meant to put 3 years not 4, sorry) since we have been split, we stayed in contact to some degree throughout that time. Particularly the last year or so the contact has spiked tremendously compared to the previous couple years. So we didn’t really need to touch base so to speak. I am a very open person about my life and personal situations when it comes to the people I trust. Mac on the other hand admittedly has trust issues with people in general. So she doesn’t completely open up to really anyone, minus her best friend.

 

Sorry for the long Qs, but if you reply Yes to all the questions above, I don't see why you can't take a gamble asking her to be your gf. But you could try to take it at a slow pace, by casually dating first instead of being outright about being OFFICIAL. See how she reacts to going out to a movie or dinner or any activities that you both can engage in for the evening. Don't be too specific about your feelings for her. Give her casual hints. If she's receptive to them, I'm pretty sure she's interested, and you can go ahead and ask her to be your gf.

 

I am by no means in any rush to be official or whatever. Honestly, outside of her, I have no desire to be in a relationship whatsoever. I just want to know where we are and where we are headed yah know? Im not going to lie, I would prefer to be with her in a dating capacity, but im not fixated on it. I just want to be clear one way or the other. Here are a couple things I am most confused about….. The stuff we do is very “date” like in my opinion. In the last month and a half we have done the following: been out to eat 6 or 7 times, went out drinking, been to a concert, saw 2 movies, went to a comedy show and earlier this week went on a brief road trip up north to go snow tubing. None of this stuff in groups, just the two of exclusively. Is that date-esque to you or is it just me?

 

Okay I think the best way to discern whether she feels the same is by her body language. Basically you've done all the things I've asked, but I think you need to pay just a little closer attention to her body movements. Does she give you touches that lingers more than you would expect from a casual friend? Does she go out of her way of being close to you? Say when you guys go for walks or go out to eat, does she walk extra close to you, or extend her hands just a few inches from yours across the table? Do you get the sense that she wants to be close to you?

 

The second thing I am most confused about, actually refers to your question about being touchy feely and the like. She hasn’t shown really any amount of touchy feely behaviors since that oktoberfest night. Something I have always wondered is whether or not me being reluctant to reciprocate those behaviors made her feel rejected, thus keeping her from acting out in such a manner now. Like I mentioned in my previous post, I (somehow) refrained from showing any emotion back to her, no matter what she did. Like I said, I wouldn’t hold her hand, walk arm and arm with her and I didn’t kiss her back. I wonder if that’s affects her now?

 

Now when you say “give her casual hints”, what exactly do you mean? I sometimes throw a subtle hint out there, but I don’t want to over do it and scare her away. Like I will briefly touch or rub her shoulder or back or leg in certain situations. I am great with eye contact when we talk, etc. What suggestions might you have?

 

Thanks for your input, it is greatly appreciated. If you have any questions, feel free to fire them out. I am up to answer anything.

Edited March 1, 2008 by foote5252

[xpaperxcutx]

We don’t (as u say) constantly contact each other. We text semi-frequently or talk online if we are on at the same time. But its not really in either of our personalities to constantly communicate. We both appreciate having space and alone time. We contact each other if we have something pertinent to say and occasionally just a little dumb one liner to say hey and what not. Also though it has been 3 + years (I meant to put 3 years not 4, sorry) since we have been split, we stayed in contact to some degree throughout that time. Particularly the last year or so the contact has spiked tremendously compared to the previous couple years. So we didn’t really need to touch base so to speak. I am a very open person about my life and personal situations when it comes to the people I trust. Mac on the other hand admittedly has trust issues with people in general. So she doesn’t completely open up to really anyone, minus her best friend.

Okay that's understandable.

I am by no means in any rush to be official or whatever. Honestly, outside of her, I have no desire to be in a relationship whatsoever. I just want to know where we are and where we are headed yah know? Im not going to lie, I would prefer to be with her in a dating capacity, but im not fixated on it. I just want to be clear one way or the other. Here are a couple things I am most confused about….. The stuff we do is very “date” like in my opinion. In the last month and a half we have done the following: been out to eat 6 or 7 times, went out drinking, been to a concert, saw 2 movies, went to a comedy show and earlier this week went on a brief road trip up north to go snow tubing. None of this stuff in groups, just the two of exclusively. Is that date-esque to you or is it just me?

I don't think that you need to worry about the labels. What's important was that the both of you had been on these casual outings which shows that you are both comfortable with each other's company. And I'm pretty sure that the both of you have not been reluctant to go out together. All good signs.

 

The second thing I am most confused about, actually refers to your question about being touchy feely and the like. She hasn’t shown really any amount of touchy feely behaviors since that oktoberfest night. Something I have always wondered is whether or not me being reluctant to reciprocate those behaviors made her feel rejected, thus keeping her from acting out in such a manner now. Like I mentioned in my previous post, I (somehow) refrained from showing any emotion back to her, no matter what she did. Like I said, I wouldn’t hold her hand, walk arm and arm with her and I didn’t kiss her back. I wonder if that’s affects her now?

I figure the events of oktoberfest are still fresh in her memories and she's restraining from doing anything drastic that might strain the current status of your relations with her. And I don't think that it's your lack of response. But do give the whole walking arm in arm a try. Make it casual, say if it's really cold, you can give her a hand rub to warm up her hands.

 

Now when you say “give her casual hints”, what exactly do you mean? I sometimes throw a subtle hint out there, but I don’t want to over do it and scare her away. Like I will briefly touch or rub her shoulder or back or leg in certain situations. I am great with eye contact when we talk, etc. What suggestions might you have?

Eye contact is a definite plus. Does she hold your gaze? If so it suggests that she's interested in what you're talking about and wants to hold your attention. And yes, briefly touching and/or rubbing her shoulders are quite subtle hints that YOU're interested. But try not to be TOO much hands on with her. An occasional compliment is always nice, like her eyes are especially captivating today.

 

So basically I think that's about it. But you said so your self you're not exactly looking for a relationship at this moment. So my suggestion is, don't overanalyze it ! You're seeing a problem that isn't actually there. Don't try to think too much on trying to label the whole thing, just have fun and enjoy each other. IF and when you're actually willing to pursue relationship status, that's when you should worry.

[foote5252]

 

Okay that's understandable.

 

I don't think that you need to worry about the labels. What's important was that the both of you had been on these casual outings which shows that you are both comfortable with each other's company. And I'm pretty sure that the both of you have not been reluctant to go out together. All good signs.

 

 

I figure the events of oktoberfest are still fresh in her memories and she's restraining from doing anything drastic that might strain the current status of your relations with her. And I don't think that it's your lack of response. But do give the whole walking arm in arm a try. Make it casual, say if it's really cold, you can give her a hand rub to warm up her hands.

 

 

Eye contact is a definite plus. Does she hold your gaze? If so it suggests that she's interested in what you're talking about and wants to hold your attention. And yes, briefly touching and/or rubbing her shoulders are quite subtle hints that YOU're interested. But try not to be TOO much hands on with her. An occasional compliment is always nice, like her eyes are especially captivating today.

 

So basically I think that's about it. But you said so your self you're not exactly looking for a relationship at this moment. So my suggestion is, don't overanalyze it ! You're seeing a problem that isn't actually there. Don't try to think too much on trying to label the whole thing, just have fun and enjoy each other. IF and when you're actually willing to pursue relationship status, that's when you should worry.

 

 

[sIZE=2]im being so un-me in overanalyzing this stuff. it seriously just hit me like a ton of bricks thanks to what you said papercut. ive been so obsessed with trying to figure out whats going on, its almost taken the fun out of the great times Mac and i have had the last couple months. why does it matter whats going on really? im a go with the flow guy, but im not going with the flow with this of all things. thats so stupid!! ive wanted to know so badly what shes thinking about where we are headed, its distracted me from the enjoyment of it all. and really in the end, what good does it do to try and figure out where its going, when eventually i'll find out when the time is tright anyway?? know what im sayin? in other words, why am i trying so hard to find the answer, when the answer will eventually unveil itself to me anyway. its not like i need to find out for any specific reason. its not like shes keeping me from dating anyone else. i dont have any desire whatsoever to date anyone to begin with, except her. And its not like any other part of my life hinges on whether or not her and I are together. So what the hell am I doing, trying to be an investigator and figure all this out? Uggg! isn’t it amazing how sometimes **** just hits you? I feel so much relief right now, I cant even tell yah. Ha! Thanks so much for the input, you really just woke me up. What you said is exactly what I would have told someone else in the same circumstance. I need to listen to me more often. Haha! Seriously though, thanks a million! I feel so much better.

 

Have a great night!

[/sIZE]

[maryjane1]

I will tell you just like I told another guy today. I know what I am talking about. Just trust me. You are stuck between two ladders. I can help you. You must understand the ladders.

 

[edit] Lovers and Acquaintances

 

LT (ladder theroy)attempts to explain differences in how heterosexual men and women evaluate potential opposite-sex sexual partners and friends. It is based on the perceived tendency of men to be more comfortable with the idea of having sex with female friends than the reverse. LT thus presumes that a platonic friendship between a man and a woman, in practice, lowers rather than increases the likelihood that the relationship will develop into a sexual one, due to the greater perceived tendency of women to maintain strong separation between relationship types. As a result, the initial decision-making process on how a particular relationship is to be classified is considered vital to understand. This process of classification and ranking is described as a "ladder".

LT argues that heterosexual women categorize men into either "possible sexual partners" (sometimes called the "Potential" ladder) or "nonsexual acquaintances" (sometimes called the "Never" ladder). Each category has a hierarchical ranking among members within them, based on their perceived sexual desirability or the perceived value of their friendship. The separation between ladders is derived from a perceived tendency in women to assign value on the ladders based on significantly different criteria: the qualities deemed desirable in a friend often appear very different from those considered attractive in a sexual partner. LT also presumes a tendency in women to infer that the strength or presence of one set of qualities equals the absence or weakness of the other -- essentially, that a specific man's rank on one ladder is inversely proportional to his "natural" rank on the other -- thus leading them to rigidly maintain this categorization once assigned. Men who become aware that they have been placed, against their own preference, on the "Never" ladder by a particular woman are cautioned, in LT, against trying to get themselves recategorized: this act is perceived as an unwelcome emotional aggression, and may provoke a response of hostility or withdrawal.

Conversely, LT argues that men tend to evaluate female acquaintances solely on a single ladder, conflating both sexual desirability and relationship value into an overall measure of priority (but usually with sexual attraction given primacy). Women placed at the top of the male ladder represent an absolute ideal of desirability, usually a combination of extreme sexual attraction and whatever other personal qualities are considered desirable by the man in question. (These qualities may be social expectations, pragmatic concerns or nonsexual ideals, depending on the individual and his context.) Only the very bottom of the male ladder, in LT theory, is reserved for women the man has firmly excluded from his sexual interest.

 

[edit] "Nice Guys and Intellectual Whores"

 

The differences between the "one-ladder" ranking system of men and the "two-ladder" ranking system of women, in LT, often lead to mutual misunderstanding, the most egregious example of which is held by LT to be the so-called "nice guy" approach. In this model, a man attempts to increase his appeal to a woman by demonstrating the qualities she has indicated that she values in another person (stereotypically, these are positive "friendship" qualities such as patience, kindness, helpfulness and consolation). To the male, this is perceived as simply increasing his overall appeal on the single ladder; for the female, however, such behaviour increases the man's rank on the "Friendship" ladder while simultaneously decreasing it on the "Partner" ladder, due to the perceived disparity in criteria between the ladders.

A harsher term for the same principle is derived from the Woody Allen short story "The Whore of Mensa": LT suggests that a man who attempts to appeal to a woman through intellectual stimulation or entertainment runs the risk of, rather than becoming or replacing the woman's sexual partner, becoming what Allen satirically depicts as an "intellectual whore" -- someone sought out solely for their intellect, with no interest on the part of the woman in broadening the relationship to other dimensions. LT asserts that there is less stigma attached to a woman maintaining platonic friendships with other men outside her primary sexual relationship than the reverse, due to the perceived separation of relationship values on the "ladders", and that this entails a certain degree of hypocrisy -- women are given latitude to maintain multiple relationships to satisfy all their social needs, while men are expected to find satisfaction for all their social needs in a single relationship only.

Ladder Theory's primary assertion in social mechanics is that classic "nice" behaviour in courtship is actually a less productive tactic than might be presumed, and can in fact be counterproductive, as women are presumed typically to infer lack of confidence rather than devotion or good character. LT argues that the most effective tactic is to establish desirability on the "Potential" ladder first and only then to establish high ranking on the "Friendship" ladder, rather than the reverse.

 

If you want more help talk to the guys on this forum. They will set you straight.

 

http://iwforums.com/

[sedona]

I'm sorry. I just don't get it. Why do you have to figure things out all "stealth-like" and guess what she thinks about you? No, don't blurt out that you love her to pieces and start discussing the possible names of your 10 future children! Of course you don't want to scare her off ny overdoing it.

 

But you guys hang out and do date-like things. She must like you as a friend, at the very least. Can't you talk to her? Why can't you just tell you that you really like being with her and think you have stronger feelings for her and ask her what she would like from you? Tell her that you're confused about what's going on -- it's perfectly understandable given what you've written here. Even if she only wants to be a friend, she should understand what you going through. You don't have to approach the subject by asking her to be your gf right off the bat. How silly that you ask us where you stand. Ask her.

 

If you think it's appropriate, then just tell her what you wrote here about when she tried to kiss you. I mean, it's a good thing that you wouldn't cheat on your then gf, isn't it? Sets a good precedent.

[foote5252]

I will tell you just like I told another guy today. I know what I am talking about. Just trust me. You are stuck between two ladders. I can help you. You must understand the ladders.

 

[edit] Lovers and Acquaintances

 

LT (ladder theroy)attempts to explain differences in how heterosexual men and women evaluate potential opposite-sex sexual partners and friends. It is based on the perceived tendency of men to be more comfortable with the idea of having sex with female friends than the reverse. LT thus presumes that a platonic friendship between a man and a woman, in practice, lowers rather than increases the likelihood that the relationship will develop into a sexual one, due to the greater perceived tendency of women to maintain strong separation between relationship types. As a result, the initial decision-making process on how a particular relationship is to be classified is considered vital to understand. This process of classification and ranking is described as a "ladder".

LT argues that heterosexual women categorize men into either "possible sexual partners" (sometimes called the "Potential" ladder) or "nonsexual acquaintances" (sometimes called the "Never" ladder). Each category has a hierarchical ranking among members within them, based on their perceived sexual desirability or the perceived value of their friendship. The separation between ladders is derived from a perceived tendency in women to assign value on the ladders based on significantly different criteria: the qualities deemed desirable in a friend often appear very different from those considered attractive in a sexual partner. LT also presumes a tendency in women to infer that the strength or presence of one set of qualities equals the absence or weakness of the other -- essentially, that a specific man's rank on one ladder is inversely proportional to his "natural" rank on the other -- thus leading them to rigidly maintain this categorization once assigned. Men who become aware that they have been placed, against their own preference, on the "Never" ladder by a particular woman are cautioned, in LT, against trying to get themselves recategorized: this act is perceived as an unwelcome emotional aggression, and may provoke a response of hostility or withdrawal.

Conversely, LT argues that men tend to evaluate female acquaintances solely on a single ladder, conflating both sexual desirability and relationship value into an overall measure of priority (but usually with sexual attraction given primacy). Women placed at the top of the male ladder represent an absolute ideal of desirability, usually a combination of extreme sexual attraction and whatever other personal qualities are considered desirable by the man in question. (These qualities may be social expectations, pragmatic concerns or nonsexual ideals, depending on the individual and his context.) Only the very bottom of the male ladder, in LT theory, is reserved for women the man has firmly excluded from his sexual interest.

 

[edit] "Nice Guys and Intellectual Whores"

 

The differences between the "one-ladder" ranking system of men and the "two-ladder" ranking system of women, in LT, often lead to mutual misunderstanding, the most egregious example of which is held by LT to be the so-called "nice guy" approach. In this model, a man attempts to increase his appeal to a woman by demonstrating the qualities she has indicated that she values in another person (stereotypically, these are positive "friendship" qualities such as patience, kindness, helpfulness and consolation). To the male, this is perceived as simply increasing his overall appeal on the single ladder; for the female, however, such behaviour increases the man's rank on the "Friendship" ladder while simultaneously decreasing it on the "Partner" ladder, due to the perceived disparity in criteria between the ladders.

A harsher term for the same principle is derived from the Woody Allen short story "The Whore of Mensa": LT suggests that a man who attempts to appeal to a woman through intellectual stimulation or entertainment runs the risk of, rather than becoming or replacing the woman's sexual partner, becoming what Allen satirically depicts as an "intellectual whore" -- someone sought out solely for their intellect, with no interest on the part of the woman in broadening the relationship to other dimensions. LT asserts that there is less stigma attached to a woman maintaining platonic friendships with other men outside her primary sexual relationship than the reverse, due to the perceived separation of relationship values on the "ladders", and that this entails a certain degree of hypocrisy -- women are given latitude to maintain multiple relationships to satisfy all their social needs, while men are expected to find satisfaction for all their social needs in a single relationship only.

Ladder Theory's primary assertion in social mechanics is that classic "nice" behaviour in courtship is actually a less productive tactic than might be presumed, and can in fact be counterproductive, as women are presumed typically to infer lack of confidence rather than devotion or good character. LT argues that the most effective tactic is to establish desirability on the "Potential" ladder first and only then to establish high ranking on the "Friendship" ladder, rather than the reverse.

 

If you want more help talk to the guys on this forum. They will set you straight.

 

http://iwforums.com/

 

 

ive been reading through that site since you mentioned it. very interesting theories and info. i posted on there, we'll see what they say too. im interested in opinions from all perspectives. thanks for the link.