My friend won't quit her loser boyfriend

[cactusflower]

Hi everyone,

 

I've been mulling this over quite a bit over the last few days wondering if I am somehow not seeing the whole picture and could use an outside opinion from people who have (or even haven't) dealt with this kind of thing.

 

My friend recenty (finally) broke it off with a guy she had been seeing for 2 years. This was due to a number of issues including the fact that he lies, leaves her hanging when they have plans, falls off the face of the earth when she's trying to get a hold of him--get's back to her when it's convenient for him--, has gotten physical with her (though he is not a typical woman beater), etc. When they did live together, he didn't work and she paid rent for both of them while he sat at home and smoked pot all day, driving her car around while she would be at work. He has a manipulative and co-dependent personality, and always turns things around on her, convincing her that his bad behavior is her fault. So basically the opposite of boyfriend material. This is a 36 year old man we are talking about, by the way. My friend just turned 30. My friend has had a string of abusive/negative relationships, and I believe that she's blinded by this. I think she just doesn't know what it's like to be treated with respect by a mate where that is the norm instead of the exception.

 

Very recently, I allowed her to stay on my couch for a couple of months because she went through a very rough patch and had done me a few big favors in the past so I was paying it forward to her. While she stayed with me, I witnessed even more of how much of a deadbeat he was, and learned more from her than I knew previously about his harmful behavior. Through a long series of daily late night talks and one-on-ones with her, I was finally able to convince her that her relationship with him was really unhealthy and that she could do better. Toward the end of her stay with me she finally broke it off in an email to him, and then lamented that he didn't write her or call her back begging to be forgiven. After she moved into her new place, I begged her myself to let herself enjoy her newfound independence and to stay away from him for all the aforementioned reasons but also because he would inevitably weasel his way into staying at her apartment all the time rent free (he lives in his van).

 

Well, low and behold, she is back with him. I told her I thought it was really sad that she was not able to move on and that her standards were just incredibly low to be convinced that this is a man that will ever make her happy. She says that he has come a long way and that things are going really great (it's only been about a month since she broke it off)- but obviously no one changes their personality overnight like that. I personally don't ever want to run into him again which is easy enough to pull off. So here is the big issue at hand and my attached question:

I ended up telling her that I prefer not to hang out with her anymore as a result of her choice to be with him. I know this isn't something that any friend would do (you're supposed stick with someone though thick and thin, blah blah blah) but the truth is that I've lost a lot of respect for her now. Her choice to be with him totally disgusts me and I just can't see hanging with her without this hanging over my head. I know she's going to be disappointed by him again and maybe even worse than before regardless of what I do, but I really just don't want to hear about it from her anymore. I got more than the average share of complaints from her that a friend gets when a man has messed up and the friend is a shoulder to cry on. Am I wrong to react this way? He's such a loser!

Edited April 9, 2014 by cactusflower

[nescafe1982]

I'll start my response by saying: a few year ago, I was this woman (your friend, I mean). I dated a man for seven years that was remarkably like this guy: I paid rent, worked, cleaned house, cooked for him, went into debt subsidizing his mooching, etc etc. I nearly quit my PhD program for him. Some of my friends stopped talking to me because I refused to dump him. I was miserable, dis-empowered, and latched onto a noncommittal man-child for everything it was worth.

 

I lacked the backbone to end the relationship all the way up to the very end: he left me (not the other way around) for another woman he was seeing.

 

I'm telling you this because when I was going through this myself, there was nothing my girl friends could say to me to make me finally do the right thing. Nothing. I had to figure it out on my own. For me? I eventually figured it out: I was investing in a bad relationship because I didn't think any other man would accept me: an assertive, high achieving woman with a masochistic approach to work. He was a loser who stayed at home, "kept" on the condition that he didn't challenge me or require that I prioritize our relationship over other endeavors.

 

Your friend has a reason she stays with this guy. She gets something out of it: confirmation of her own low-self esteem, perhaps; he's not emotionally demanding, maybe; she doesn't have to face potentially being alone. Toxic relationships endure not only because of "feelings;" they are a dynamic wherein two people interact, even disfunctionally so.

 

But you talked with her about it. Ad nauseum. And she decided against doing the brave thing, ending the relationship, and striving to change whatever about herself led her into this relationship to begin with. There's not much you can do... and I would believe that asserting distance from her is probably the only way you can show your support.

 

That said, though: I would caution you not to forever shut the door on this friendship. I say this because in the end, it's her relationship, not yours... and the more you invest in your friend's success or failure, the less empowered she will feel to do what's best for her. If you definitively end the friendship over this, it communicates to your friend "you have failed and are unacceptable to me," not "I want what's best for you." It also looks a little like "You didn't do what I told you so screw you." And that's not what you want, either.

 

I think instead of ending the friendship, you can assertively say "look. I love you and you're my friend, but you know where I stand on this boyfriend and discussing it with you at this point is counterproductive. From now on, I don't want our chats to be about him, okay?" When you guys hang out, just make it about you two... avoid discussing the boyfriend. With a little luck, she will see that this thing is unhealthy on her own, and you two will keep a good friendship even after she dumps him.

[cactusflower]

Wow. Such a great answer! And great to hear it from someone who has been on the other side of things.

 

I do feel odd about just totally ending my relationship with her, I think it was a reaction mostly done out of total, utter frustration...and also the decrease in respect for her than I mentioned. There are other things about her that have nothing to do with him that I find a little hard to deal with but chose to overlook them with the knowledge that she's a good person and means well. I think this boyfriend thing was kind of the straw or something.

 

Thank you so much for your advice!

[nescafe1982]

Hope it helps!

 

I do feel odd about just totally ending my relationship with her, I think it was a reaction mostly done out of total, utter frustration...and also the decrease in respect for her than I mentioned.

 

Totally. And it's a completely understandable reaction, too. I had friends cut me off for both reasons when I was with my ex. In the end, they had every right to be frustrated and lose respect for me. I certainly wasn't showing much respect for myself!

 

My caution against these impulses is mostly borne of the understanding that when my friends did it to me.. it did nothing to convince me they were right about my relationship. Indeed, it just made me feel lonelier, more isolated; I clung tighter to my loser BF than ever.

 

But in defining the parameters of your relationship and setting new discussion boundaries with her, you can be both supportive and assertive. And I find it's good practice to establish positive conversational boundaries with all my friends, shunning gossip, negativity, or the ceaseless "venting" that sometimes replaces actually doing something about a bad situation.

[cactusflower]

Hope it helps!

 

.. it did nothing to convince me they were right about my relationship. Indeed, it just made me feel lonelier, more isolated; I clung tighter to my loser BF than ever.

 

I did consider this very strict possibility. In addition she's the kind of person that thinks with very rose-colored glasses (with a rose-colored brain) and will probably see it as "he's the one that cares because he's here in front of me while others are abandoning me," kind of thing. Something I don't want her to think.

 

At this point, I'm also realizing as I write this that I'm spending way too much energy hoping she do one thing and getting upset when she does another, along with the energy it takes to go back and forth with her. I think for my own mental health I'll keep my distance for a while, but let her know that I'm still around if a true crisis or emergency is to occur and she needs my help. I'm not heartless or anything.

[Dollfacee]

At one point I was best friends with a girl like this.

Its exhausting giving someone so much time and energy and repeatative advice that they dont follow. She went threw it all and I heard it all -.- 7 years of them being together, his cheating, lies, partying, and immature ways THEYRE STILL TOGETHER needless to say hes still a loser boyfriend and such a pathetic "father" to their 5 month old baby.

[nescafe1982]

I was tired of rescuing her.

 

This is an apt term for it.

 

Usually women who do this kind of thing have a codependent attachment style. A big part of the reason their toxic romantic relationships endure is because the couple has a style of codependent reaffirmation where one party "rescues" the other in an endless cycle of crisis and resolution.

 

People in codependent love relationships also tend to create codependent patterns in their friendships, too. Hence the cycle of crisis, "venting," and temporary resolution that is so exhausting for the other party.

 

The only way to break the pattern is to refuse to play a part in it. I advocate breaking the conversational cycle... but many women who find themselves involved in a codependent friendship find they must end the friendship too. I think both approaches are acceptable, depending on the value of the friendship that exists beyond this toxic cycle.

[cactusflower]

As I've thought more about the suggestion you made with regard to keeping the subject off of him and thereby making it a better experience hanging out with her... as well as about the co-dependent friendship resemblance, I realize that this is very much what has been going on between her and I. I've gotten way too invested in her decisions, including ones totally unrelated to her bf.

 

There was always something about my relationship with her that I found a bit untenable despite caring for a her a great deal. It's been the interactions between us where I can't get something through to her and she just doesn't really listen or absorb what I say. Obviously it's not that she just needs to do what I tell her to (she's a free agent!), but even seeing that this is the way it seems to play out with me feeling like I'm having to parent her--it really shines a light on the stuff with her bf too. I just shouldn't invest myself to the point at which I was before.

 

I hope for her sake, she's able to break this cycle and see the light.

[cactusflower]

Btw, Nescafe-- you seem by your advice to have become incredibly well-adjusted in this arena I've posted about, considering that you were going through something so similar to what my friend is going through. I can only hope she gains the kind of clarity you have.

 

All that meant with the utmost respect to you, of course !

[nescafe1982]

...I've gotten way too invested in her decisions, including ones totally unrelated to her bf.

 

I hope for her sake, she's able to break this cycle and see the light.

 

I think this realization takes a significant level of self awareness. Do what's best for you! I think you're probably right that backing up a bit is a good thing.

 

And thanks for your kind comment. Recovering from my last relationship took quite a struggle... and honestly I don't think I gained any clarity on it until YEARS later. It's simply amazing how entrenched a toxic dynamic can become without even being aware of it.

[hoping2heal]

Hi everyone,

 

I've been mulling this over quite a bit over the last few days wondering if I am somehow not seeing the whole picture and could use an outside opinion from people who have (or even haven't) dealt with this kind of thing.

 

My friend recenty (finally) broke it off with a guy she had been seeing for 2 years. This was due to a number of issues including the fact that he lies, leaves her hanging when they have plans, falls off the face of the earth when she's trying to get a hold of him--get's back to her when it's convenient for him--, has gotten physical with her (though he is not a typical woman beater), etc. When they did live together, he didn't work and she paid rent for both of them while he sat at home and smoked pot all day, driving her car around while she would be at work. He has a manipulative and co-dependent personality, and always turns things around on her, convincing her that his bad behavior is her fault. So basically the opposite of boyfriend material. This is a 36 year old man we are talking about, by the way. My friend just turned 30. My friend has had a string of abusive/negative relationships, and I believe that she's blinded by this. I think she just doesn't know what it's like to be treated with respect by a mate where that is the norm instead of the exception.

 

Very recently, I allowed her to stay on my couch for a couple of months because she went through a very rough patch and had done me a few big favors in the past so I was paying it forward to her. While she stayed with me, I witnessed even more of how much of a deadbeat he was, and learned more from her than I knew previously about his harmful behavior. Through a long series of daily late night talks and one-on-ones with her, I was finally able to convince her that her relationship with him was really unhealthy and that she could do better. Toward the end of her stay with me she finally broke it off in an email to him, and then lamented that he didn't write her or call her back begging to be forgiven. After she moved into her new place, I begged her myself to let herself enjoy her newfound independence and to stay away from him for all the aforementioned reasons but also because he would inevitably weasel his way into staying at her apartment all the time rent free (he lives in his van).

 

Well, low and behold, she is back with him. I told her I thought it was really sad that she was not able to move on and that her standards were just incredibly low to be convinced that this is a man that will ever make her happy. She says that he has come a long way and that things are going really great (it's only been about a month since she broke it off)- but obviously no one changes their personality overnight like that. I personally don't ever want to run into him again which is easy enough to pull off. So here is the big issue at hand and my attached question:

I ended up telling her that I prefer not to hang out with her anymore as a result of her choice to be with him. I know this isn't something that any friend would do (you're supposed stick with someone though thick and thin, blah blah blah) but the truth is that I've lost a lot of respect for her now. Her choice to be with him totally disgusts me and I just can't see hanging with her without this hanging over my head. I know she's going to be disappointed by him again and maybe even worse than before regardless of what I do, but I really just don't want to hear about it from her anymore. I got more than the average share of complaints from her that a friend gets when a man has messed up and the friend is a shoulder to cry on. Am I wrong to react this way? He's such a loser!

 

It sounds like your friend has become caught up in the cycle of abuse and she is mentally ill as a result. I don't know if that's the right term; but it certainly seems like mental illness to me when women subject themselves to abuse and mistreatment (or men). So, I think you should have some compassion vs. judgement (I lost respect) but at the same time..what the heck is the right answer here?

 

Certainly, watch someone self destruct repeatedly becomes stressful and exhausting to the stand by and that is not fair either.

 

Maybe you could explain to her that you need a "time out" because it has become so exhausting and stressful for you to watch her continually hurt herself.

[jellybean89]

Some friends are in our lives for a reason, a season or a lifetime. You need to do what you feel is right for YOU!

 

She isn't going to end the relationship because you want her to. She is only going to end it when she decides.

 

You can either continue to bang your head against the wall with her or drop this entire subject from your friendship or drop the friendship. We all have to learn through our own decisions and mistakes.

 

As hard as it is to watch your friend walk in front of a train, you can't stop train all you can do is figure out what is best for you.

 

Are there safe subjects you two can talk about? Maybe it is best to put the friendship on hold for now?

 

Good luck, and I'm sorry you are hurting.

[Noise Electric]

Who is your friend, Rihanna?

 

Toxic relationships are like any other form of addiction - they are total and all-encompassing. Your friend is going to continue to put this crappy relationship first even after it costs her everything. It's because of chemical responses in her brain.

 

You're going about it the right way though: keep your distance but don't abandon her completely. Eventually 1 of 2 things will happen: her douchy bf will control her until she snaps, or he will leave her for someone else.

 

Also, guys like this are usually cheaters so tell your friend to use protection.

 

You might suggest that she enroll in a self defense/martial arts class. This was a pivotal step for me in walking out of an abusive relationship many years ago.