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Male friends who are married.


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I wasn't sure where to put this. But I'll throw this out there and ask anyhow...

 

I have a friend at work I'm fairly close to. Now, this friend and I share unique circumstances in our friendship. Six years ago, I was 32 and diagnosed with cancer. Four years ago, he had the same diagnosis, he was 34.

 

Now, over the last year we've been friends there has NEVER been any suggestion or inkling of anything untoward in our friendship and that's not what I'm implying in this post. What I'm talking about here is this is two similar situations which pretty much are difficult to empathise with for those individuals around us.

 

But, that said... that's about the top and bottom of things. Conversations include things like 'ya, how'd your latest scan go?' and replies are like 'it was scary, I was scared, it's a bitch but what can you do?' These are very often things you can't or don't want to worry a SO or family with - because hell THEY are worried enough already. Very often it's more worrying questions than that - like the fear of cancer returning or eventually dying etc. So it's easy to blow these things off to someone who kinda knows what the deal is.

 

Then something strange happened today. I'm kinda worried this is heading in a direction I don't want it to go to. My friend is married with 3 children. I haven't met his family yet - I had an opportunity to do so a couple of weeks ago by attending the christening service of his youngest child. However, I couldn't go because I was away for the weekend. Today he messaged me on MSN (which we use for work) and asked would I like to go out for a drink after work on Friday..?! This has never happened before. We've been out to lunch to discuss work or cancer issues. But there has never been a line crossed in it being inappropriate.

 

I'm worried this is heading into EA territory and I want to avoid that. At the moment things are fairly relaxed and there is no constancy, constant communication, dependence or anything like that. Our conversations are usually in passing at work when one or either of us can be bothered to catch up (or unless one or either of us is having a cancer scare - I had one two weeks ago which I actually didn't tell my friend about).

 

Am I reading too much into this...? Or is my feeling that asking a female friend out for drinks after work, is a little inappropriate..? I don't intend going and my first gut response to him was 'No, sorry I can't'. I didn't have plans for Friday but I suddenly got busy. I don't intend confronting him on the issue because I don't see that there is actually anything to confront at the moment, but what I'm saying is I feel this has the hallmark of EA potential and I'd like to avoid that because I know how damaging that is likely to be to HIS relationship (I'm single).

 

How would you advise proceeding with this delicate situation..?

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Is it possible that it might be more "survivor support dependency" than romantic EA? Either way, though, yes it sounds as if caution would be prudent.

 

Maybe you can do something like, "sorry I can't make it Friday night, but if there's something you need to get off your chest, how about next Tuesday lunch?"

Hopefully he'll respond with "no, it's nothing like that" or "yes, there's this medical thing"...and you'll be able to get a better sense, from that.

 

Worst case, you tell the truth -- after-work meetings with married co-workers is NOT what you want for yourself. (He won't be able to argue what you want for yourself, and will have no opportunity to make his case about how his marriage sucks and his wife doesn't understand him.)

 

Best luck -- and good health!

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Hi Ronni!

You know I was struggling in my initial post with how to define the friendship - but you have it on the nail. Yes, it is most definitely the "survivor support" thing. The unique thing in that is that we're both also healthcare professionals, so alot of our discussions have a sense of gallows humour about them too. That's not really something which close family and SO partners want or need to hear. So, yes you're right - it kinda fills a gap.

 

I think I'll take your advice and offer lunch next week sometime and throw in the 'if you need to talk about something' thing. He is most definitely bound to say whether it's medically related. I hadn't thought about this that much because I was so worried about the over-dependence thing. I want to be very mindful of stepping away from anything like that developing (mainly because I've seen here on LS how easily it can happen). That said, he did have some blood tests last week which were needing to be repeated - so it is probably innocent and he wants to ask about those. I'm a little ahead in my 'survivorship' and we often joke about him playing catch up all the time.

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I'm a little ahead in my 'survivorship' and we often joke about him playing catch up all the time.

That's perfect, actually! If/when it appears he has become dependent on you, you can suggest that he's "graduated" to requiring more than you alone can provide, with your limited time and energy, etc. Or start joking about the inevitability of his graduation.

 

You're right that the "specialty understanding" you've gained through your similar experience can easily and unconsciously turn into something MUCH more for him. The 'survivor connection' gets misinterpreted as being a heart connection.

 

Another way to alleviate potential problems is to perhaps casually bring into conversation how common it is for trauma survivors (cancer, divorce, death) to develop romantic feelings for their professional caregivers, fellow survivors, etc.

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OP, you've both been through a lot...don't beat yourself up and over-analyze this.

 

Make it a point to meet his family. I'll bet your support will be greatly appreciated by his loved ones.

 

Best wishes for continued health :)

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It's not your problem if he has gotten emotionally attached to you. Just tell him honestly, like you would to any friend, that you think it would look bad for a married man and a single woman to be going out alone after work for drinks.

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Thanks for the input guys. I emailed him this morning, made my apologies (again) for bailing on an evening out and offered to catch up with lunch next time I'm back at work (I'm on leave after this week for two weeks). I was going to offer lunch next week but I think if I keep the interactions to work-time and space, that will keep boundaries clearly defined.

 

Carhill -- thanks, I know I shouldn't overanalyse things but as Ronni said, sometimes it is very easy for things to be misinterpreted and this veering off the path of normal interactions didn't feel quite right to me. Not wrong exactly but it felt odd and I didn't want anything untoward to result down the line. Alcohol & a shared connection due to other things can and could lead elsewhere and I felt it was easier to simply not put either of us in that situation. I think I've managed that without too much ruffling of feathers.

 

Ronni -- thanks, I think that's where I was coming from in my thinking. I know there is nothing untoward at the moment - but I wanted to prevent anything developing which could be misinterpreted. Shared connections and experiences are one thing, it leading individuals along another path is quite another. I've seen post after post here in the marriage/infidelity forum where individuals berate themselves for not seeing the point in the relationship where things changed. I am currently thinking this COULD have been the point where things changed and hopefully I've put an end to that now.

 

Angel -- thanks for your input. I think you're right but I also think my friend would feel like he was being accused of something he hadn't done or intended if I'm that direct with him right now. I think on this one occasion, my having said I can't go and being aware of this for the future is enough to steer us both away from danger.

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I really want to understand this perspective. Two cancer survivors who work together develop a friendship based on facing a common enemy (the disease) and support each other's fight without any perceived notion of sexual or romantic interest. The OP is single and the friend is presumably happily married. Do I have the dynamic correct so far?

 

Here's my struggle....If you feel a certain way (outlined above), why do you "worry" that someone's feelings will change through a continuation of the status quo. Why do you think alcohol and its attendant lowering of inhibitions will change that feeling or any actions regarding it? Additionally, even if the "feeling" were to change, wouldn't two people with solid moral centers behave in a manner commensurate with those centers regardless? IOW, you can't control how you feel but you can control your behavior. Perhaps avoidance of certain situations is evidence of that control, but, since there is no feeling to base the behavior modification on, why would such a consideration even be on the table?

 

This is my process...I'm not interested in you romantically. I love you as a friend and support. I don't even consider, no matter what the venue or activity or sobriety level that I would ever have any reason to act or give the appearance of acting inappropriately. I could hug you or kiss you as a friend in front of my wife without concern that she would get the wrong message or be upset in any way.

 

Do you get how this perspective allows for open and honest love in a way that is not destructive or damaging to any relationship?

 

Or, do you think that there is always a romantic/sexual undercurrent between a man and a woman so there is no way that the above could occur in reality? I think it is how we think and feel at the core level which affects our outward relevance to and processing of the world around us, including relationships. It "colors" us.

 

Perhaps my perspective is one borne of age. When younger, I worried about how my actions appeared to others and fitting in and doing the right thing. I gave others too much power. Things have changed :)

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This is my process...I'm not interested in you romantically. I love you as a friend and support. I don't even consider, no matter what the venue or activity or sobriety level that I would ever have any reason to act or give the appearance of acting inappropriately. I could hug you or kiss you as a friend in front of my wife without concern that she would get the wrong message or be upset in any way.

Carhill, perhaps an expansion of my own experience will assist.

Actually...maybe I can just skip to the end of it. The person for whom I was a support (as a 'survivor of divorce') did develop what subsequently seemed to have become romantic feelings for me. We had known each for years, worked together, I knew his wife and kids very well, he knew my long-term partner very well.

 

Before his divorce experience there was, and after his recovery there would have been, absolutely no sexual/romantic pull AT ALL, for either of us. In the "real world" we did not fancy each other in the slightest. I guess it is a bit like PTSD. It is just a reactionary state.

 

He developed feelings towards me that did not match his/our (prior) "real world". Who knows why? Perhaps his feelings of powerlessness, sadness, loss of dreams, betrayal, et al. contributed.

In truth, I was warned as it was occurring...his over-dependence and such. But, "knowing" our relationship to be "just" coworkers/friends who now had a common bond, I did promptly ignore them all.

 

And he KNEW it wasn't appropriate. But, in his then-current fragile mental and emotional state, was unable to control those feelings.

He never followed through on his feelings BUT he acted them out by becoming hostile towards me after something I did that HE perceived as my betrayal of him -- went to lunch with another male co-worker. (IMO, it was neediness that he consciously or unconsciously "translated" to romantic because at least then he didn't have to feel even worse about himself, for being needy.)

 

But. I interpreted that OP is foreseeing a similar situation arising in her future...nothing inappropriate has to be said or done, but the person she is 'sponsoring' may nevertheless end up with confusion and more pain. NOT of Chinook's doing, but there is no harm in trying to spare him (and herself) from the fall-out, is my feeling. And not even that her co-worker would ever consciously WANT it to happen.

 

<whew> Sorry a bit long. Hope it offers a glimpse of what you wanted, though.

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He never followed through on his feelings BUT he acted them out by becoming hostile towards me after something I did that HE perceived as my betrayal of him -- went to lunch with another male co-worker. (IMO, it was neediness that he consciously or unconsciously "translated" to romantic because at least then he didn't have to feel even worse about himself, for being needy.)

 

This is interesting. Thank you :)

 

To paraphrase, in a weakened emotional state, his feelings of neediness were confused with romantic feelings which he did develop for you which, until this point, were controlled, subsequently leaked out into his behaviors as hostility.

 

So the balance would be, with a friend, how to weigh the potential of this occurring, with its attendant pain, against the perceived pain of any actions intended to prevent its occurrence.

 

I've examined these motivations and behaviors in myself and can say, for me, in a weakened emotional state (real occurrence), I never did develop neediness-based romantic feelings for any female friends (whether mine or my wife's) who were merely friends to me. I did however, revisit very intense romantic feelings for someone who had been a love interest of mine in the past, and my emotional state surely impacted those feelings, though I largely kept my behaviors in check (no, not perfectly). So, I can perhaps see this from both sides of the street, knowing where the weaknesses lie as well as the emotional strengths.

 

Personally, I think if the OP had/has interacted with her friend's family, things would be much less ambiguous and perhaps she would feel much more comfortable with her friend, or, conversely, have proper information to warrant maintaining a certain "distance" from him. Always erring on the side of the potential worst case scenario can, IMO, be an impetus to projecting such anxiety and behaviors onto others, undermining otherwise healthy relationships. "Souring the milk", if you will.

 

Hope the OP lets us know how her choice works out :)

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To paraphrase, in a weakened emotional state, his feelings of neediness were confused with romantic feelings which he did develop for you which, until this point, were controlled, subsequently leaked out into his behaviors as hostility.

I actually suspect that he was not aware of having any feelings of need or anything else towards me UNTIL I accepted that offer for lunch. I'd bet my last two dollars that he also felt I was "just" his friend helping him through a very difficult time. My guess is that he was surprised and angered by his surprise. And my last guess about the matter is that, six or so years later, he likely STILL doesn't know what actually happened to him :p.

Personally, I think if the OP had/has interacted with her friend's family, things would be much less ambiguous and perhaps she would feel much more comfortable with her friend, or, conversely, have proper information to warrant maintaining a certain "distance" from him.
Closeness with his family would not, IMO, guarantee that emotions and perceptions could/would be nicely contained in their appropriate 'boxes'. For him, that might even breed more self-anger and contempt should he ever lose management of his feelings in the way we are speculating about here.

 

There need be absolutely no pain, in trying to avoid the unfortunate occurrence of which we speak. But one needs the consciousness of knowing that it exists as even the smallest possibility, for any hope of doing a reasonable and pain-free prevention ;).

 

It is, of course, only based on my own negative experience that I suggest caution as a wise choice for this situation. I do realize that there is an equally compelling argument for the other side...and that we are, in any event, only considering possibilities not realities.

 

I do appreciate your insights and perspectives, carhill - thanks for sharing on these boards.

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Just so I'm on the correct page, should we assume that the OP is the "strong" one here? I ask because, stereotypically, women are viewed as being stronger wrt and more aware of emotion than men are....

 

I tend not to assign such labels in my relationships but am aware of the dynamic....

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Just so I'm on the correct page, should we assume that the OP is the "strong" one here? I ask because, stereotypically, women are viewed as being stronger

No -- just that she's the more experienced 'survivor' (as it was in my case.) That we both happen to be women is just coincidence. I guess one might also look at it as being similar to a case of client-to-therapist transference being played out in a non-professional arena.

 

I should have thought to mention that before, actually. The concern is not completely unwarranted.

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, stereotypically, women are viewed as being

You got me thinking ;).

Much as I don't like generalities: It seems a possibility that it might be women who more often find themselves in this position, precisely because of that stereotypical "it's our nature to nurture" -- from that view, men typically would not be seen to have or express the patience, need, compassion, desire (or whatever) that would allow a support relationship to develop to a point it could get all mixed-up and confusing.

 

???Our strength is your "curse"...and vice versa??? :eek:

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Do you think that is in play here? See, I'm getting better about asking rather than projecting :D

 

Hang on, the cat wants out ;)

 

Anyway, I did see a bit of this dynamic on my support forum, where my empathy and involvement did impel some of the caregivers to start more private relationships with me, some even to the extent of calling me at home. These were mature women (mostly in their 60-70's) who were very much committed to their ill husbands, but, even so, the lines of anonymous support became blurred...

 

I ultimately backed off my participation, remaining on now mostly as administrator and occasional advice provider. Interesting how that works....

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Do you think that is in play here? See, I'm getting better about asking rather than projecting :D

Not here, specifically, no. Just generally speaking and observing the different ways men and women do relate (regardless of the traditions, core beliefs and self-images that are driving the respective behaviours.)

 

Transference, perhaps especially in non-professional relationships, only happens when one feels safe, secure, heard, understood, etc., blah blah. And men, in their collective current 'incarnation', demonstrate a tendency to want to avoid all of that messy stuff. (Am I being politically correct enough, yet?)

 

And, God, yes! Ain't it grand what new understandings one can gain by seeking instead of thinking one already knows?

I LOVE this planet :love:. Thank you for inspiring that feeling at this moment. (Did just you go, "aawww" or "ick"??? -- no worries, either way...I'm just feeling playful for reasons to be determined.)

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I guess I didn't hang on long enough. <Geeze, Louise...ALL women are just ALWAYS so impatient!!!>

 

But yes...exactly what you are saying. It is unlikely that men would be so quick to do that. Generally speaking and observing. Exceptions noted and expected.

 

Getting back to the original post, I think it's possible Chinook's intuition is just throwing out a faint signal about whether now is a good time to consider a few future possibilities, and create some plans in case they are needed.

 

In my case - ended in hostility; for you - ended positively but after the fact; Chinook is having an opportunity to end positively before the fact.

 

We are collectively evolving...or so it seems to me :bunny:

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Carhill -- just to rewind a little, you're right in your assertions that if there weren't any feelings at all, why should there be an issue...?! That's entirely an understandable viewpoint and if I'm honest, until I was asked out for drinks the other day there really hadn't been any issue for me. When I was asked to go out, I started to look at the situation and wondered about a couple of things. It's not my feelings I'm worried about, it's those of my friend and I know that sounds very egotistical ... it isn't meant to be. It's really as Ronni says, my intuition is such that I can kinda sense something, although I don't have any concrete things to put my finger on and say 'yes, that's how it is' so I want to ensure that I create an environment which is safe for a friendship to exist, but not so much that any other feelings may evolve from that.

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OK, I trust that (your intuition). I will experiment with this dynamic this evening, gauging my intuition about one of my wife's married friends from whom I've been getting a strange "vibe" from for a couple years now. No animals will be harmed :D, but I will crank my sensitivity up and examine it. I'm really good at that :)

 

It's not egotistical to opine someone *might* be attracted to you, sensing it with your intuition, and being concerned for their feelings; conversely, I think it's a gift. The gift of being human. He has a good friend. Spread it around :)

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Update on last night.... oh, boy. :eek: Wish I could post details but it's a bit too personal. I've really got to stop doing this stuff. Started out fine, and I'm thinking "I'm so happy to be wrong" :) By time the evening was over, I was wondering who I was really married to. :eek:

 

OP, if there's any doubt in your mind, go with that. Don't be me.... :(

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By time the evening was over, I was wondering who I was really married to. :eek:

Hey carhill.

"Sucks to be right" doesn't sound good (to my way of hearing things) -- thinking of you and praying you all that you need. (((hugs)))

Ronni

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I'll now face much the same issue as the OP...how to properly handle the situation (or at least clarify it) without risking/destroying the friendship, not to mention pissing my wife off. These aren't casual friends, at least to me. We're really close. The really confusing part for me (nothing new) was that my wife was right there and didn't notice anything untoward. Perhaps this underscores the difference in the sensitivity of our respective psyche's, which is documented.

 

Thanks for your support. I hope we've been helpful to and supportive of the OP in her situation....

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