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How you would take what she said?


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Hi,

 

A while ago I posted a thread about whether most people would overlook disrespectful behaviour from a close friend. Somebody asked me to specify what I meant by disrespectful. I would like to do that with the hope that you all will give me your thoughts and feelings on the following two scenarios.

 

A few months ago I had asked my friend if she would like to go on vacation with me in the summer. Her answer was no, explaining she had debts gallore and no money to spend on a vacation.

 

A few weeks later we were on the phone and she said she attended a spiritual conference where she felt a higher power spoke to her heart telling her that she will go to Argentina on a mission's trip in the summer. She was very excited about taking this trip. I, perplexed, said "how is it you have money for a mission's trip now when you said a few weeks ago that you didn't have the money to go on vacation with me this summer?"

 

She became very defensive accusing me of accusing her of doing something distrustful... anyway and said the following: "I DON'T have the money, I am trying to tell you that a higher power spoke to my heart and told me, I can't believe you are accusing me of lying about having no money. DO YOU WANT TO SEE MY BANK ACCOUNT???!?"

 

My question is: would you be offended by her last comment "Do you want to see my bank account?"? i was quite offended because it is a stupid question - surely she knows I wouldn't expect to see her bank account and I was insulted that she'd say something so ugly like that. Do you sense some disrespect in her tone/attitude toward me?

 

Another example:

 

Recently we were on the phone having a huge fight about something. This was the biggest fight we have ever had. We were on the phone for an hour. It was 7 p.m. and she had to be at a meeting at 8 pm. The meeting was taking place at a location that was a half-hour drive from her house.

 

We were on the phone arguing and both feeling horrible, and her call-waiting kept beeping (for business) and she had to get off the phone a few times and call me back. We kept getting interrupted but I wasn't upset about that. Anyway, the third time she called me back it was 7:45 pm (15 minutes before her meeting), and we were still arguing and nothing had been resolved. Then abruptly she said she was going to cut off the conversation to go to her meeting. I felt it was a bad time to do that and said "what? you're just going to cut off the conversation right now?" and she responded with this: "I AM LATE FOR MY MEETING BECAUSE OF YOU. DO YOU WANT ME TO BE LATE FOR MY MEETING? IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT???!?"

 

Again, I felt this last statement was just plain unfair and rude because **SHE** was the one who kept calling me back singalling that she had time to argue and it was obvious that we couldn't possibly resolve anything in 5 minutes. If she was so concerned about being on time for her meeting, she shouldn't have kept calling me back -- especially 15 minutes before her meeting. How she expects me to take the blame for her being late for her meeting is absolutely unfair I feel.

 

I perceive this as having a disrespectful attitude with me, where she says things during a fight that are rooted in falseness and are unfair. She "fights dirty" I feel.

 

What do you all think?

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No, I wouldn't feel *offended* at being asked if I wanted to see her bank account. An alternative feeling is amused...or befuddled...or forgiving. It's a choice of what you want to feel about it.

 

Similarly, you KNEW she had an 8pm meeting. Likely you also knew that the matter was not going to be resolved by the time she had to meet her other commitment.

YOU could have chosen, at 7:30pm to say, "Hey, I know you gotta get to your meeting. Let's leave this for when we have more time, huh? It's important to me that we get this sorted out so it doesn't become a big obstacle in our friendship."

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Well, it seems as if you are not at the top of her priority list. She probably has other things going on in her life at the moment. It is also possible that you have different feelings toward her than she does toward you and that this is a one sided relationship. So there are many possibilities as to why she is acting like this, however, I think the best thing to do right now is to give her some space and let her figure things out. You might learn something from it too.

 

I wouldn't take too much offense from these statements. They are obviously not personal attacks, but rather exasperated defenses. It sounds as if you may be giving her to much to deal with. So, like I said, lay off for a while.

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You're right it was an exaggerated defensive response. I just feel like she shouldn't be retaliating with statements/questions that she knows are false and unfair. These examples must say something about her character, but I am not sure what it is. Is she immature or something?

 

(For the record, I am no Polyanna myself and admit it. But in both of these instances, I cannot imagine that I am 100% at fault. When we fight it is not like she is Jesus and I am the bad guy. She can be horrible too.)

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But in both of these instances, I cannot imagine that I am 100% at fault.

Well, I'm not sure it's worthwhile to think in terms of "fault" or "no fault". You both seem to be at about the same maturity level, and you're right that the examples DO say something about character...yours as well as hers.

 

BOTH of you could have handled the situations "better" (or "worse") than you actually did. BOTH of you have more mature outlooks and responses to cultivate, but that obviously depends on your individual desire and choice.

 

Do you recall why you did not think to suggest that it would be best to wait until she had more time, to continue the phone conversation? What was it that made you question whatever message she received from her Higher Power -- what blocked you from keeping that conversation strictly about her experience at the conference? What compelled you to make her spiritual vision about you?

 

Doing self-reflection on your own attitudes and reactions may prove more useful for your own growth, rather than looking for something on which to place judgment, blame or fault.

 

Because from HER side, she can ALSO say that your actions in these examples are "unfair", or putting her in a negative ("false") light, or are immature, self-centered, etc., etc.

But it won't help her to judge you and try to put labels on your behaviour, either. She needs to do her own self-reflection, if she wants to mature.

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Ok Ronni, thsi is helping so I hope you can follow up with me again. You asked some good questions:

 

Do you recall why you did not think to suggest that it would be best to wait until she had more time, to continue the phone conversation?

 

I can answer this question. Because the argument was so serious (we were both horribly upset) I figured she would give priority to working this thing out over getting to her meeting on time or at all, which was not work related by the way, but a religious group meeting which she misses whenever she needs to. Also, she was doing more talking and accusing than I was so I thought she wanted to continue (it's not like I was going on a rant and demanded her ear. She was blasting my ear that night). And finally, she kept answering her call waiting (3 times) and saying "I have to call you back..I have to call you back" rather than "look, it's almost 7:30 I have a meeting I need to attend and my call waiting is ringing, let's pick this us later tonight or tomorrow." So isn't it sh*tty of her to retort angrily with "I am going to be late because of you. Do you want me to late? Is that what you want???"

 

What was it that made you question whatever message she received from her Higher Power -- what blocked you from keeping that conversation strictly about her experience at the conference? What compelled you to make her spiritual vision about you?

 

OK, the answer to this speaks more to my own paranoia than anything I guess. Please tell me if this proves that I am a bad friend ok? I always feel insecure around this girl as if she has a list of complaints about my personality (i.e. that I am too "black and white"). To add to that, she always talks highly of her other friends (so and so "is such a wise woman" ... such and such "is the best") and yet she speaks to those girls once week and with me 4 times a day (she calls me by the way). So I am a little insecure about our relationship, it is true. So when she said she felt in her heart she would be going on a mission's trip this summer, my brain immediately went to the following thought: she probably *does* have money to vacation this summer but doesn't want to go away with me because she doesn't like me very much because we fight all the time. So she lied to me about not having the funds and now she forgot that she lied and is telling me about this mission's trip vision.

 

Am I a terrible person to be friends with? I already feel like sh*t as a result of everything so please be gentle.

 

thank you

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There are some serious things going on here .

 

How ugly and hurtful can an on~going arguement last into the day ?

 

Why did you have to feel * continue * the fight and at who's expense ?

 

Why did she feel so adament about relaying her FEELINGS to you.? To her it was critical to tell you what she felt , much so , that she was going to be late for her meeting

 

Are you sure there is not something more serious going on here ? Do you provoke her into SHOUTING some of the things she said to you ?

 

She seems very defensive with you but why ?

 

Why all the drama ? Why is the friendship so much WORK and trauma to your souls ?

 

Why does she seek a higher power and conclude it will get her what she needs just by believing ? It takes much more ...

 

Have you both always fought ?

 

I have gf's from length of friendship 6 years to 20 years and nowhere in there do I recall saying hurtful hateful things to any of them.

 

Yes maybe I can gently relay that I wish she would call me more. Its all about CONTROL of your emotions. Not LOSING control and going crazy on ANYONE. Your friends , your bf and your siblings

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Hi Zal.

I'm glad if our 'conversation' is helping -- that's why LS is here, I think, to help each other ;). First off, NO! You are not a "bad" friend...and neither is the friend you're posting about.

 

You are already showing great insight by acknowledging your own insecurity about the relationship. I would suspect that it is also your 'insecure part' that kind of decided something like, "If she cared about me/this relationship, then she'd miss her meeting." Is that a possibility?

 

Now, that would be an example of 'black & white' thinking. Because HER reality probably is that she cares about you AND she cares about her spiritual development. For her, it is not one OR the other, it can be both. 'Black & white' thinking is NOT a personality flaw or defect. It is just one's habitual way of looking at things -- the pattern of how our thoughts tend to work based on if we feel loved or unloved, secure or insecure, etc.

 

Can you see that your thinking "she probably lied about having money for a vacation" might have been conveyed (even subtly or subconsciously) in the words you chose and/or your tone of voice? It follows that SHE would have been hurt by that.

NOT because that's what you wanted to do, but because that's how it came out after your thoughts got processed by your 'insecure part'.

 

So...in effect, your insecure part keeps using 'black & white' thought patterns, and it ends up misinterpreting what is really going on for the other person. Your words and tone then DO come off as being more 'attacking' than you actually want, and the other person goes on the defensive -- and starts saying stuff like, "do you want to see my bank book?" and "do you want me to be late for my meeting?"

 

The thing is that it is really tough to maintain a good, supportive, encouraging and honest relationship when the other person doesn't get a handle on their own insecurities -- more often than not, the 'insecure part' ends up running the show...and ruining the relationship.

 

Again, it's not a personality issue, and it is something that will improve as soon as you make a decision to start looking for different ways of looking at things. Look at it from an 'insecure' point of view. Now, how would your 'secure part' see it? Now, what could be going on for the other person? Now, what ELSE could be going on for the other person?

 

At this point, about the two examples that you cited, I would really encourage you to just forget it as being about BOTH of you not handling things well, BOTH of you misinterpreting things, BOTH of you reacting to your instinctive thoughts rather than thinking about it more and then making a better choice of how to respond.

 

I can't see that it will help your friendship if either of you choose to hold a grudge about past incidents. Yes, she could have done this or that BUT yes, YOU could have done this or that instead of her. (It is on BOTH of you, equally, like I said before.)

 

Okay. So that's a long enough post -- feel free to repost if there's something you'd like me to clarify.

 

I can see where you might be feeling sh!!ty about it. The thing is that you didn't go out of your way to hurt her or accuse her or whatever. Learning how to self-forgive is an incredibly important part of maturing, and it is also how we learn to forgive others.

How I am interpreting the situation here, it is perfectly fine to forgive yourself for all the prior 'stuff'...and to make a decision that you are going to start a more positive attitude/way of looking at things from now on.

 

Sending hugs and good luck.

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Thank you so much Ronni. Are you a counsellor or psychologist? I have Googled "black and white thinking" and will read up on this. Before my friend said this to me, I never knew I was this way -- and still don't quite understand what it is. Thanks again.

 

I *do* have something I'd like to talk more with you about but perhaps later tonight when I have time to write. The thing is me and that girl are not speaking anymore. More stuff happened and I am really upset about the fact she doesn't want to reconcile with me. I am pretty tortured about it actually. I can hardly function at work (hence me being here during work hours talking about this).

 

If you could check in with me again tomorrow I'd be grateful.

Thanks,

Zal

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No prob, Zal. For now, I just want to say that 'black & white thinking' is NOT the way you ARE, it is just a pattern in the way you THINK. (There is a big and important difference.)

It comes across in your posts that the way you ARE is sensitive and caring.

 

Anyway. Keep hope for positive outcomes with your friend...likely there are ways for you to facilitate a reconciliation.

Ronni

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No prob, Zal. For now, I just want to say that 'black & white thinking' is NOT the way you ARE, it is just a pattern in the way you THINK. (There is a big and important difference.)

It comes across in your posts that the way you ARE is sensitive and caring.

 

Anyway. Keep hope for positive outcomes with your friend...likely there are ways for you to facilitate a reconciliation.

Ronni

 

Hi Ronni,

 

Thanks for the affirmation. It meant a lot.

 

I wanted to tell you the ending of the "story" and get your thoughts.

 

So a month ago, we had this big fight (the same one when she said "do you want me to be late for my meeting.") The reason for the fight was forgivable (in my opinion) but the fight culminated into a full-blown fight with layer upon layer of hurtful words and yelling.

 

The anger on both sides lasted a week. She was mostly mad at me for something selfish, she feels, I did, and I was mad at her for a number of little things I feel she did. Neither one of us could see the other's point of view and I believe we were both doing a terrible job of relaying our feelings/concerns to the other person in a non-combative way.

 

(Side note: I feel I can see her point of view after it is explained to me in a non-combative or condescending way, but she isn't willing to see my point of view on any of her mistakes, which leaves me wondering if I am that unreasonable that she still doesn't see my point of view after thorough explanation. I feel like I am a fairly intelligent person, perceptive, so how can I be so wrong?)

 

Back to the story. So a week went by and she finally came around and started calling me again. But at the first mention of the previous week's falling-out we both got defensive again and got into another huge fight.

 

This time she decided to write out her feelings and email them to me and in her email invited me to write her back as well. I read her long letter, and could see why she would feel I had been selfish in my actions the previous week, but I was annoyed by her delivery in some parts of the letter (some parts were combative again).

 

I called her that night and said I did not want to write her back a long detailed letter like hers because I didn't think it would be productive or result in peace and harmony. I said let's just drop it and said I don't agree 100% with the way she sees the events of the previous week.

 

This angered her more and she started getting very aggressive to the point that, in my opinion, was abusive. I don't know how else to explain it other than when we got off the phone I was in shock, shaking, crying and in disbelief that a person could have such rage against another particularly over a disagreement in how we perceive things.

 

She kept analyzing my behaviour and analyzing and coming to these conclusions like "Oh I see! The reason you're paranoid that I might do [X] is because you have it in you to do such [X]" (implying that I am projecting).

 

Her arguing style was really traumatic for me. For most of the conversation I remained speechless while she yelled and yelled. I felt beaten up verbally. (this was the fight when she had to go to her religious meeting).

 

Finally I let her go and the last thing she said was "Ok, you understand that we can't pick up where we left off last week. That it's going to take some time before things can be like the way they were." I said "yes, I think that is an accurate assessment" and we hung up.

 

When we got off the phone, like I said, I felt abused or something. I was crying and shaking and in disbelief. I didn't think we would ever speak again after such a fight.

 

The next day, the called me at work totally soft and sorry. I was in awe. I told her I wanted to write her a letter this time explaining my side of things and tht I didn't think we should talk until after she reads it. In the letter I made sure to also tell her that her behaviour on the phone last night was unacceptable and abusive.

 

10 minutes after she read the letter she called me at work again. I didn't pick up. (I was at work and fed up with the emotional drama and needed a break. But mostly it was because I was at work).

 

She called me again at work the next day. I didn't pick up.

 

She called me again at work. Again I didn't pick up. She left a voicemail asking me to call her. I emailed her right away and said "I am at work let's talk when I get home."

 

I came home and decided to watch a movie -- the last thing I felt like doing was get into it again with her. I was emotional exhausted.

 

She called me at 11 pm angry that I didn't phone her when I got home. It was downhill from there. More fighting, yelling and horribly hurtful things... this is how she was talking, referring to my letter (in a hostile nervous voice):

 

Her: "So let me understand this, you think I am insensitive. Is that what you think???"

 

Me: "No... I am not saying YOU as a whole are insensitive. I am saying what you did that night was insensitive."

 

Her: "Ok, so what I did was insensitive. Can you explain how?"

 

Me: "er...I thought I did in my letter."

 

Her (more and more tense and angry): "Ok, what else? What else have I done that makes you think I am insensitive?"

 

Me: "What else?? Oh my God! I am not going to give you a list of things you have done to me that were insensitive. What the he**! That is not the point. Can't you just think about what I've already said and reflect on it?"

 

Her: "You're avoiding the issue!"

 

Me: "I can't do this anymore. This isn't getting us anywhere. I am not going to sit there and list all the things you have ever done to me that were insensitive. I am sick of this fighting. What is the purpose of your call? Because I am not engaging in this with you anymore. Either we end this conversation now and forget about things, or we end the friendship because I have had it."

 

Her: "You know what.. after all this unpleasantness... maybe we should end the friendship."

 

And then she gave a 10 minute farewell speech loaded with weird statements like "I guess all journeys must come to an end. I wish you all the best."

 

We hung up and I realized that I didn't necessarily want to end the friendship but rather end the fighting. It was making me ill.

 

So I immediately emailed her saying: "When I said goodbye just now, I didn't want our friendship to end--just this fighting. Please. I just want this anger, yelling and hostility to end. I do not want our one-year friendship to end. I am not avoiding the issue when I say let's just drop it. I just feel like we're not getting anywhere by doing this. We disappointed each other, let the other down. But so what? Love can cover a multitude of things. Let's just forgive and forget."

 

She wrote back saying: "I cannot do what you want me to do. In this friendship I have always tried to add value to you. I don't have it in me to do that anymore. I will cherish our talks and keep everything in confidance but I cannot sweep everything under the rug and live a superficial existence. I wish you all the best."

 

I wrote back saying: "I am sorry you feel that way. I was not suggesting a superficial existence but to forgive and forget as we are instructed to do [referring to our faith]. I am sorry you dont have it in your heart to do that."

 

That was it. It has been a month. I see her at church on Sundays and now all of a sudden she is bringing this new girl to church with her. Literally all of a sudden she has a new church buddy.

 

We haven't spoke since.

 

:(

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Me: "I can't do this anymore. This isn't getting us anywhere. ... I am sick of this fighting. Because I am not engaging in this with you anymore. Either we end this conversation now and forget about things, or we end the friendship because I have had it."

Hey Zal,

Your instinct there was RIGHT ON the money! You totally came up with your own solution: forgive and move forward OR end the relationship. What is going to be tough on you is this: She has clearly stated that she cannot do the 'forgiveness and moving forward' part. Because...

She wrote back saying: "I cannot do what you want me to do....
It does not matter if that's because she is unable to forgive or just unwilling to forgive. Either way, it is her issue; her lacking an important life skill.

 

But. I get that you are sad about the loss of this friendship and hoping for a reconciliation.

 

It may sound like a silly place to start, but have you written down your reasons for WANTING this friendship? (You don't have to post it here, but it is important that you have clarity inside yourself.)

 

What are the POSITIVE qualities that she brings into your life? How does she ENHANCE who you are today, and who you want to be in the future? What does the word 'friendship' mean to you? How do YOU want your friendships to look? - How close does this one come, to your vision of an 'ideal' friendship?

How, specifically, have you two been supporting EACH OTHER'S dreams and goals for the future?

 

What is your list of what friends "should do" and "shouldn't do" -- are these expectations/demands of yours reasonable to ask from anyone else? Is it reasonable to ask of this particular friend?

Based on what you know about her personality, lifestyle and general situation, in HER life, what has been (or could be) limiting her from engaging with you in genuinely loving and caring ways?

Is it REASONABLE to expect that these limitations are going to be removed anytime soon?

 

Have you contributed to limiting her ability to be loving and caring towards you? - How? Are you willing to change your own attitudes and actions towards her, that are negatively impacting her attitudes and actions towards you?

 

 

You can probably think of more questions to which you may want to know your own answers. Journal it all -- whatever comes into your mind about yourself, and your friend, individually and as a 'twosome'. Take your time to really self-reflect. You may even get more insight a day or week later...after you thought you'd already fully explored every angle.

 

Sometimes we do get into, and stay in relationships out of (unhealthy) neediness, unreasonable expectations, etc. Sometimes the relationships do start out to be very positive but then, for whatever reason, become extremely negative and damaging.

So it may be worthwhile for you to first find out what this one has become (current-day, not how it started out), and then make a well-informed and wise decision as to what 'next step' you want to take.

 

I know it's tough not to feel "tortured". To me, it seems that there's a possibility that you are both just maturing -- new facets of your personality emerging -- life transitions include so many changes, on so many levels. It isn't necessary to feel horrible if it turns out that your two personalities are heading in different directions.

 

You can forgive and move forward on your own, even if she hasn't yet reached that level of development. You don't have to stay stuck in any cycle of negativity. From what you've posted, you are ready to move on into a much more compassionate and peaceful way of being. She may just not be there yet.

 

Sending Love and Light,

Ronni

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Thank you Ronni. Your emails have been very comforting and useful. I will reflect on those questions and journal my thoughts. Maybe at some point I might even post a thread titled "what I expect from a close friend" and see what people think of my expectations.

 

God bless.

 

Zal

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